Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

  • 1
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
  • 8
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 13799
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Sat May 23, 2015 2:33 pm

Yeah, on top of other reasons the dead were Airbus test crew, the last people you expect to go to court (or their families in case of the dead). I'm sure there is a generous insurance policy in place for them.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
mham001
Posts: 5745
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Sat May 23, 2015 10:47 pm

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 249):
The frequent legal cases in the US are driven by a scheme where the family makes deal with a law firm that there is no up front payment to the law firm but fees are deducted from any payout if successful. If the family wins, most money goes to the law firm, if not the law firm loses income (mainly internal hours). This practice is illegal in most countries.

No, typically, the law firm gets 30%, not most. This can become 40% if there is an appeal. Law firms will generally not take a case if they think they can't win. If the case is questionable or small, the plaintiff will often pay his own way if he insists on pursuit.

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 249):
And then there is the small matter that in the US you don't have to pay the other parties legal fees regardless of outcome, but in many cases (including almost everywhere in Europe) you need to pay the other parties costs if you lose.

And both of these practices allow the poor and the destitute access to the legal system. Why should only the rich have access? For one tiny example, Joe Shmo dies of industrial poisoning caused by pollution from an industrial plant, leaving behind wife and children, no insurance, no nothing. There is no way a poor widow is coming up with tens of thousands it would cost to fight with corporate law firms. Why would a compassionate society shut her out? And beyond that, legal fees often are part of the final settlements.
 
jupiter2
Posts: 1739
Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2001 11:30 am

RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Sun May 24, 2015 5:16 am

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 249):
it will go to arbitration before going to court.

This would be the most likely outcome.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 250):
Yeah, on top of other reasons the dead were Airbus test crew, the last people you expect to go to court (or their families in case of the dead). I'm sure there is a generous insurance policy in place for them.

Why would you believe that ? If your employer is negligent and you were to be seriously injured, or to die, you would want to be suitably compensated. If Airbus (in this case) has a suitable compensation policy, that is great and hopefully the families of the deceased crewman will be more than suitably compensated.

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 249):
This will be settled behind closed doors between Airbus, the families and insurers.

Again, I agree with this. One of the insurers in question will be whoever the deceased may have a life insurance policy with, they would not want to pay out a large sum of money when the cause is attributed to a fault with the aircraft, if indeed that is what it turns out to be.

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 249):
this was a test flight so there is an implied acceptance of certain levels of risk which is different from being normal passenger on a commercial flight

This is a large multi engine transport aircraft, not a single seat, single engine high performance fighter. The crew of this aircraft had every reason to believe this would be a relatively routine first flight for this particular aircraft, after all the A400 has been flying for quite some time now. Sure they would have expected some relatively minor faults and bugs, I would expect most first flights experience such problems, but to encounter such a catastrophic and unusual occurrence, so early into the flight, I would doubt that anyone would expect something like it.
 
AngMoh
Posts: 1074
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:03 am

RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Sun May 24, 2015 6:15 am

Quoting jupiter2 (Reply 252):
Again, I agree with this. One of the insurers in question will be whoever the deceased may have a life insurance policy with, they would not want to pay out a large sum of money when the cause is attributed to a fault with the aircraft, if indeed that is what it turns out to be.
Quoting jupiter2 (Reply 252):
This is a large multi engine transport aircraft, not a single seat, single engine high performance fighter. The crew of this aircraft had every reason to believe this would be a relatively routine first flight for this particular aircraft, after all the A400 has been flying for quite some time now. Sure they would have expected some relatively minor faults and bugs, I would expect most first flights experience such problems, but to encounter such a catastrophic and unusual occurrence, so early into the flight, I would doubt that anyone would expect something like it.

You stated that the families will sue. That will not happen because it was an industrial accident and Airbus is responsible for the safety of their employees regardless of what cause of the accident is and their insurance will have to pay according to employment contracts and local legal requirements. Going to court does not give you a cent more in Europe. The personal insurer of the families can also not sue Airbus - if the insured died in an accident they will have to pay and there not is any recourse for them to reclaim money due to the cause. If you have a traffic accident and you kill someone who has a $100 million in life insurance, your insurers liability is still the same as when you killed someone with no life insurance.

The only cases you might see is between Airbus, their insurer and sub-supplier if involved and their insurers. And if the lawyers did their job, all liabilities they have towards each other are defined in the contracts.
727 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739/ER 742 743 744/M 752 753 762 772 77E 773 77W 788 A300 A310 A319 A320 A321 A332 A333 A343 A345 A346 A359 A35K A388 DC-9 DC-10 MD11 MD81 MD82 MD87 F70 ERJ145 E170 E175 E190 E195 ATR72 Q400 CRJ200 CRJ700 CRJ900 BAE146 RJ85
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14127
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Sun May 24, 2015 10:52 am

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 253):
And if the lawyers did their job, all liabilities they have towards each other are defined in the contracts.

You still are required to have effective overwatch over the contractual obligations being fulfilled. There can still be murder by neglect charges, there is always an automatic criminal investigation when serious or lethal workplace accidents happen. It's not that rare that someone goes to jail over not monitoring sub-sub contractors compliance with workplace safety regulations properly.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
GRIVely
Posts: 143
Joined: Wed Dec 13, 2006 5:46 am

RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Mon May 25, 2015 8:40 pm

Has the temporary flight suspension by A400 operators been lifted yet? Any additional flights after the "Confidence" flight?

If not yet lifted any hints when the plane will resume normal flight ops?
 
User avatar
Grizzly410
Posts: 501
Joined: Sun May 10, 2015 8:38 pm

RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Tue May 26, 2015 7:48 am

Quoting GRIVely (Reply 255):
Has the temporary flight suspension by A400 operators been lifted yet?

  

Quoting GRIVely (Reply 255):
Any additional flights after the "Confidence" flight?

I saw MSN6 performing touch&go's during 2-3h several time last week and yesterday morning, MSN4 flew at least once.

Quoting GRIVely (Reply 255):
If not yet lifted any hints when the plane will resume normal flight ops?

   absolutely nothing new since the AOT last Tuesday.
In order to be old and wise, one must first be young and dumb.
 
PlaneInsomniac
Posts: 421
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:34 am

RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Tue May 26, 2015 9:27 am

Quoting GRIVely (Reply 235):
Software problems are extremely difficult to identify, very expensive to fix and almost impossible to guarantee that particular problem will not recur because the testing conditions have so many unconstrained variables.

As a general statement, this is incorrect. Provably (i.e. mathematically) correct software and systematic verification/validation have been researched for decades:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formal_methods
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_verification
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_verification_and_validation

While adoption of such methods in general software development projects is generally lacking, their usage is relatively common in highly critical applications in well-defined environments with (fairly) limited parameter sets.

Although I do not have experience with aerospace software and its certification requirements, I know for a fact that as early as (at least) almost 20 years ago, car manufacturers were already striving to achieve formal verification for at least parts of the considerable software operating modern vehicles.
Am I cured? Slept 5 hours on last long-haul flight...
 
Okie
Posts: 4219
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:30 am

RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Wed May 27, 2015 7:03 pm

http://www.wsj.com/articles/airbus-c...lack-box-data-recovered-1432743960

WSJ article so it will probably be behind a paywall so you will have to Google.

Basically says they are examining the read out of the recorders that they finally were able to down load to see if it lines up with their hypothesis of the software issue.

I think they have had a pretty good idea from early on exactly where the problem was with the software issue.

Okie
 
User avatar
Finn350
Posts: 1601
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:57 am

RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Wed May 27, 2015 8:17 pm

Quoting Okie (Reply 258):

Basically says they are examining the read out of the recorders that they finally were able to down load to see if it lines up with their hypothesis of the software issue.

I think they have had a pretty good idea from early on exactly where the problem was with the software issue.

Thanks for the link. It appears that Airbus is not yet examining the read outs as they have not received recordings.

Quote:
Airbus also instructed operators to perform additional checks in case of later engine problems. Airbus said it found the issue, seen as a flow in the system’s software, during its own analysis of what may have caused the crash.

The WSJ article is not very well written. The first part of the quote is wrong (additional checks were instructed to be made in the event of any subsequent engine or ECU replacement). The second part of the quote ("as a flow in the system’s software") is incomprehensible, at least to a non-native speaker.
 
Okie
Posts: 4219
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:30 am

RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Wed May 27, 2015 9:26 pm

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 259):
The second part of the quote ("as a flow in the system’s software") is incomprehensible, at least to a non-native speaker

I am comprehending that as in there was an error in the software.

Okie
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 25233
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Wed May 27, 2015 10:39 pm

Quoting Okie (Reply 260):
I am comprehending that as in there was an error in the software.

In other words, "flow" probably should have been "flaw"...
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
mffoda
Posts: 1099
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:09 pm

RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Thu May 28, 2015 6:26 pm

Some more news on the crash...

"BERLIN: Analysis of the flight recorders of the A400M which crashed in Spain on May 9, killing four, indicated there were no structural faults but assembly quality problems, a senior Airbus executive said in a newspaper interview to appear on Friday.

"The black boxes confirm it. There was no structural fault, but we have a serious final assembly quality problem," Airbus group's chief of strategy Marwan Lahoud told the German daily Handelsblatt after receiving the first results of the analyses of the flight recorders.

In a statement released ahead of publication, Handelsblatt wrote that the units which control the engines of the turboprop A400M military cargo and troop transport were poorly installed during final assembly, which could have led to the engines malfunctioning and the plane crashing.'


http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Wor...ity-problem-after-a400m-crash.ashx

https://in.news.yahoo.com/airbus-admits-assembly-quality-problem-174725125.html
harder than woodpecker lips...
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 25233
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Thu May 28, 2015 7:13 pm

Quoting mffoda (Reply 262):
we have a serious final assembly quality problem

Yet another blow to the program. Earlier posts about the German air force complaints on quality were treated as simple nit picking, but now an Airbus chief of strategy is publicly admitting the A400M crashed due to serious quality problems.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
TheSonntag
Posts: 4509
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:23 pm

RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Thu May 28, 2015 8:09 pm

2 days ago I received a Squawk 7700 alert from an A400M doing a test flight from france. However, the flight continued as normal - did they "test" the transponder?
 
RickNRoll
Posts: 1869
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:30 am

RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Fri May 29, 2015 6:07 am

Quoting Okie (Reply 260):
I am comprehending that as in there was an error in the software.
Quoting Revelation (Reply 263):
Yet another blow to the program. Earlier posts about the German air force complaints on quality were treated as simple nit picking, but now an Airbus chief of strategy is publicly admitting the A400M crashed due to serious quality problems.

Which would explain why a successful manager from the Civilian manufacturing part of Airbus has been moved to the Military part.
 
LovesCoffee
Posts: 222
Joined: Thu May 31, 2012 4:07 am

RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Fri May 29, 2015 7:08 am

FWIW, a slightly dated (7 days old) article from AV Week about the A400M:
link here

AV Week registration is free to read the whole article.
Life is too short for cheap coffee.
 
mayohoo
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:15 pm

RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Fri May 29, 2015 6:48 pm

For educational purposes, how are software updates tested and then implemented? I presume they are ground simulated before flight testing.
Isn't there redundancy built into the system? How does something like this happen?
 
sharktail
Posts: 136
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:41 pm

RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Fri May 29, 2015 8:19 pm

Aviationweek is pretty definite in saying that the root cause has been confirmed as "Incorrectly installed engine control software" according to Airbus Chief Strategy Officer Marwan Lahoud

http://aviationweek.com/defense/inco...d-a400m-crash-airbus-official-says

So that would mean the issue is not with the aircraft (good) but it is with the process of installing software. Either at airbus or at the engine manufacturer. Who is at fault doesn't really matter to the people that died.

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 264):

Quoting mffoda (Reply 262):
we have a serious final assembly quality problem

Yet another blow to the program. Earlier posts about the German air force complaints on quality were treated as simple nit picking, but now an Airbus chief of strategy is publicly admitting the A400M crashed due to serious quality problems.

The blow was the crash. The only options after that were bad (quality control) or worse (plane not airworthy).

At least it is bad. But they would be wise not to claim everything is great when it has been demonstrated that essentially their own (lack of) process caused the dead of some of their employees/colleagues.
 
Okie
Posts: 4219
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:30 am

RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Fri May 29, 2015 9:33 pm

Quoting Sharktail (Reply 268):
Aviationweek is pretty definite in saying that the root cause has been confirmed as "Incorrectly installed engine control software" according to Airbus Chief Strategy Officer Marwan Lahoud

The information I could gleam from Google translations before this article called the software that was in the ECU's as manufacturing software.

I guess I am not clear if this was normal test software used during manufacturing of aircraft and flight software loaded later or if this had something to do with the wing load relief (fuel management) for high g maneuvers that was new starting with this frame.

Either case somewhere quality missed the proper version/download and the box was ticked that there was correct software.

Okie
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 25233
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Fri May 29, 2015 11:11 pm

Quoting Sharktail (Reply 268):
Aviationweek is pretty definite in saying that the root cause has been confirmed as "Incorrectly installed engine control software" according to Airbus Chief Strategy Officer Marwan Lahoud

One interesting tidbit not yet reported here:

Quote:

The news emerged two days after Airbus CEO Tom Enders criticized Spanish agencies for withholding the flight recorder data.
“We would like to see the data and compare it with our hypothesis and proceed quickly to understand the causes of accident, so our aircraft can get back into the air,” he told shareholders at the company’s annual general meeting in Amsterdam on May 27.

First they could not read the data then they wouldn't share it?

Quoting Sharktail (Reply 268):

So that would mean the issue is not with the aircraft (good) but it is with the process of installing software. Either at airbus or at the engine manufacturer.

I guess the only good thing about it is that the solution is simple.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
Okie
Posts: 4219
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:30 am

RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Sat May 30, 2015 1:49 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 270):
First they could not read the data then they wouldn't share it?

They passed the buck twice on reading the data then had to go to the FDR manufacturer to get a read on the data.
The surmise is the data was so corrupted that they had to go to the manufacturer to sort through the read out and reconstruct the data.
Why it has not been fed back down the food chain one would have to guess that there is some legal ramifications or authority structure that will take precedence.

The big issue is that Airbus was able to determine in very short order "the hypothesis" that the incorrect software was in the aircraft.
That would indicate that there were not procedures in place to assure the proper software or procedures were not followed.

Okie
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 13799
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Sat May 30, 2015 9:21 am

Quoting Okie (Reply 271):
That would indicate that there were not procedures in place to assure the proper software or procedures were not followed.

Something was missed for sure, but the fact that they knew very quickly what does point out to some procedure being already in place.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
GRIVely
Posts: 143
Joined: Wed Dec 13, 2006 5:46 am

RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Sat May 30, 2015 1:16 pm

In my business, aerospace, if you have a payload failure, much less a launch failure, you carry out a top to bottom and very thorough review of everything. Procedures are reviewed, documentation checked, subcontractor QA records examined, software performance testing validated, etc. With the German Air Force finding so many deficiencies on an aircraft delivered to them and this event I would have expected Airbus to send in a Red Team to go over every aspect of the manufacturing and assembly process.

Okay, Airbus says they are confident they understand what happened to this aircraft but they don't really. If the ECU software problem was missed, and it was, what if there were other equally potentially dangerous shortcomings in the airframe that weren't discovered because the aircraft was destroyed before they were detected? What are they doing to safeguard future deliveries from similar undetected faults? Have they conducted that type of rigorous analysis of procedures at the plant? And if not, why not?
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 15690
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Sun May 31, 2015 6:36 am

Quoting Okie (Reply 271):
The big issue is that Airbus was able to determine in very short order "the hypothesis" that the incorrect software was in the aircraft.
That would indicate that there were not procedures in place to assure the proper software or procedures were not followed.

The rubbish people on this site still amazes me. This flights was not the first time the engines were started, they had gone though a series of ground tests before the aircraft left the ground, all the data from the ground runs is saved. On power up, the aircraft goes through BITE tests, that checks the software load version as well as other parameters.

If the EEC does not have software loaded, you cannot get any engine instruments, nor can you start the engines. FADEC will fail the BITE test.

I would suggest as far as the aircraft was concerned, it thought it had the correct engines, and correct software. It will fail the power on and ground run sequences otherwise.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 25233
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Sun May 31, 2015 1:05 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 274):
I would suggest as far as the aircraft was concerned, it thought it had the correct engines, and correct software.

And yet we have:

Quote:

Initial analyses results of the flight recorders indicate that poorly installed software may have brought down the military cargo plane.

"The black boxes confirm it. There was no structural fault, but we have a serious final assembly quality problem," Airbus group's chief of strategy Marwan Lahoud told the German business daily Handelsblatt in an interview appearing on Friday.

Ref: http://www.dw.de/airbus-admits-to-a400m-assembly-problems/a-18484219

So we have an aircraft that thinks it has the right engines yet a serious final assembly quality problem involving software. To me that's entirely consistent with:

Quoting Okie (Reply 271):
That would indicate that there were not procedures in place to assure the proper software or procedures were not followed.

One interesting tidbit from Handelsblatt (after free registration: https://global.handelsblatt.com/edition/180/ressort/politics/article/airbus-software-caused-a400m-crash-in-spain?3899) says that the software at question is usually installed by the engine manufacturer MTU but in the case of the incident aircraft the software was installed by Airbus employees.

That seems consistent with "procedures not followed".
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
pugman211
Posts: 559
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:55 pm

RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Sun May 31, 2015 2:41 pm

From what Zeke has mentioned, I wonder if it is not a case of bad/incorrect software but poorly secured. If the connections became loose and only partially connected engine power and functions would be lost instantly.
 
User avatar
Finn350
Posts: 1601
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:57 am

RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Sun May 31, 2015 3:47 pm

Quoting pugman211 (Reply 276):
From what Zeke has mentioned, I wonder if it is not a case of bad/incorrect software but poorly secured. If the connections became loose and only partially connected engine power and functions would be lost instantly.

That would be a hardware problem, not a software installation issue. As speculated in multiple news sources, the problem appears to be related to the software installation.
 
zanl188
Posts: 3805
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:05 pm

RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Sun May 31, 2015 4:48 pm

Maybe configuration pins were shorted incorrectly or a dummy plug was incorrectly, or not, installed.

In regards to this incident I don't think we can trust the press to get it right.
Legal considerations provided by: Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 15690
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Mon Jun 01, 2015 12:16 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 275):
So we have an aircraft that thinks it has the right engines yet a serious final assembly quality problem involving software. To me that's entirely consistent with:

That is just as dumb as others said above when the German air force find a decal is only 13.5 mm high, when it should be 15mm, there is a defect. Lots of defects, must be unsafe, never the question of what the defect is. People make a big deal out of it because they are so gullible to know any different.

You really think a decal being the wrong size, wrong font, wrong color, wrong alignment is a safety issue ?

A quality issue does not mean it is unsafe.

Face it you have ZERO idea how an A400 works, you have ZERO idea of what happens, all you are doing is putting the most negative view of anything that happens to be in the press.

Have you actually been in an A400 ?
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
RickNRoll
Posts: 1869
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:30 am

RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Mon Jun 01, 2015 12:21 am

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 277):
That would be a hardware problem, not a software installation issue. As speculated in multiple news sources, the problem appears to be related to the software installation.

I don't think the press understands computers to any level, just as they show poor understanding of most technical issues these days, such as aircraft. Journalism is not making money and good journlists cost a lot of money. Hence the numerous basic errors in reporting that everyone can see, where basic facts and evidence are not researched any more.

It could be that the software can't work properly due to data not flowing because there is an incorrect assembly. It could also be that the installation of the software was incorrect, for example, calibration.
 
Okie
Posts: 4219
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:30 am

RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Mon Jun 01, 2015 1:07 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 274):
The rubbish people on this site still amazes me. This flights was not the first time the engines were started, they had gone though a series of ground tests before the aircraft left the ground, all the data from the ground runs is saved. On power up, the aircraft goes through BITE tests, that checks the software load version as well as other parameters

Just for thought on your assessment.
I doubt that Airbus would have ordered a check on existing aircraft on the ECU if there was not a way that the aircraft could operate without the certified version of the software.
Otherwise there would have not been a reason to check.

Okie
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 15690
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Mon Jun 01, 2015 9:28 am

Quoting Okie (Reply 281):
I doubt that Airbus would have ordered a check on existing aircraft on the ECU if there was not a way that the aircraft could operate without the certified version of the software.
Otherwise there would have not been a reason to check.

Airbus has no idea what the ECU software does on this engine, on a GE, PW, or RR engine. That is for the OEM of the engine to know and maintain.

If you followed any OEM telex to operators following accidents, it is VERY normal for them to to get operators to inspect and report what is in the field.

This is like trying to blame Boeing for the ELT fire on the 787, it had nothing to do with Boeing, they just happened to install the part. They did however get operators to check what was installed.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
User avatar
Finn350
Posts: 1601
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:57 am

RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Mon Jun 01, 2015 11:32 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 282):
This is like trying to blame Boeing for the ELT fire on the 787, it had nothing to do with Boeing, they just happened to install the part. They did however get operators to check what was installed.

Based on the news reports, it appears that Airbus had installed a new or modified version of the ECU software on the accident aircraft. Therefore it appears that in this case the issue is at Airbus, not at the engine manufacturer.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 25233
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Mon Jun 01, 2015 11:41 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 282):
Airbus has no idea what the ECU software does on this engine, on a GE, PW, or RR engine. That is for the OEM of the engine to know and maintain.

Seems in your rush to call other people dumb you overlooked:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 275):
One interesting tidbit from Handelsblatt (after free registration: https://global.handelsblatt.com/edition/180/ressort/politics/article/airbus-software-caused-a400m-crash-in-spain?3899) says that the software at question is usually installed by the engine manufacturer MTU but in the case of the incident aircraft the software was installed by Airbus employees.

That seems consistent with "procedures not followed".
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
r2rho
Posts: 3096
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:13 pm

RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Mon Jun 01, 2015 12:18 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 170):
myself and others are seeing it as publicity AND leadership.

Agree, but as much internal publicity as external; Alonso's flight was very important for employee morale.

Quoting zeke (Reply 175):
I dont think you will ever see one, now the military have taken it over.

I think it is in everyone's best interest, given the high profile of the accident and its impact on a major EU military program, that the report be made public in the end. Airbus has promised full transparency so will likely push for this. And the Spanish authorities, if they want to protect their national industry, would be wise to release it to the public.

Quoting mffoda (Reply 262):
there were no structural faults but assembly quality problems, a senior Airbus executive said in a newspaper interview to appear on Friday.

"The black boxes confirm it. There was no structural fault, but we have a serious final assembly quality problem," Airbus group's chief of strategy Marwan Lahoud told the German daily Handelsblatt after receiving the first results of the analyses of the flight recorders.'

This comes to me as a rather irresponsible behavior, releasing information bypassing the official investigation, and is not in line with the behavior shown by other Airbus managers up to now such as Enders or Alonso. Employees are always told to not release information to the media or fuel the spread of rumors, but here we have a manager breaking this rule.
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 3645
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Mon Jun 01, 2015 1:38 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 279):

That is just as dumb as others said above when the German air force find a decal is only 13.5 mm high, when it should be 15mm, there is a defect. Lots of defects, must be unsafe, never the question of what the defect is.
Quoting zeke (Reply 279):
You really think a decal being the wrong size, wrong font, wrong color, wrong alignment is a safety issue ?

I used to think like that. Until I had a chance to work with some Japanese Engineers (some 20 odd years ago). Sure the discrepancy on the font of a text may not be unsafe, but it means that either you are not following the documented requirements, the engineering drawings or the quality assurance process. Any single occurrence does not make an airplane unsafe. But "Lots of defects" may indicate a culture that could produce bad hardware which can lead to unsafe situation.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
jollo
Posts: 398
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2011 7:24 pm

RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Mon Jun 01, 2015 1:58 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 282):
Airbus has no idea what the ECU software does on this engine, on a GE, PW, or RR engine. That is for the OEM of the engine to know and maintain.

A slight correction: "Airbus has no idea how the ECU software does things on this engine, on a GE, PW, or RR engine. That is for the OEM of the engine to know and maintain."

Airbus, as "systems integrator", has to know what it does (its interface specification). The gist of the sentence is, however, correct: software is, well, "soft", and the boundary between component quality and installation quality is *not* as well-cut as with hardware components. The point is that deployment (aka installation) sits, unlike other industries, completely under the responsibility of the software supplier. In the software industry (at least, embedded mission-critical software), you must provide software that either is demostrably correctly deployed, or doesn't work at all.

I won't stray too much OT into the details of why this is done this way: it's called Configuration Management, and the gist of it is that the configuration to be managed is the one that actually ends up running on the destination environment - in this case, MSN23 - *not* the one stored in the manufacturer's code repository, or tested in some certification enviroment.

So if anyone (not me) is looking to appoint responsability, the rule of thumb is: the supplier (i.e. the engine manufacturer, Europrop) is always responsible, unless you prove that someone (i.e. Airbus) actively circumvented mandated procedures (e.g. manually overwriting files instead of running an installation package provided by the supplier: I know it sounds incredible, but it happens...). However, even in this case, the supplier would be asked how a non viable configuration wasn't intercepted by the power-on self test (a simple CRC is all that's needed to identify a configuration that's been tampered with).

Discaimer: the above discussion has nothing to do with software correctness, which is within the purview of certification. I just guess (repeat guess) that if the issue had been rooted in a bug that escaped certification, Airbus wouldn't have resumed flight operations so quickly: this sounds like a Configuration Management issue that was identified very quickly running through the "paper" trail, not through a re-assessment of the quality of the code.

Disclaimer 2: all of the above is pure speculation of a (non-aerospace) software professional. No insider's Aibus or Europrop knowledge here.
 
jollo
Posts: 398
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2011 7:24 pm

RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Mon Jun 01, 2015 2:15 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 286):
But "Lots of defects" may indicate a culture that could produce bad hardware which can lead to unsafe situation.

   Absolutely. It's a full decade that KPIs in the (embedded, mission critical) software industry weight equally *both* the occurence of critical issues *and* the volume (total count) of minor issues.
 
User avatar
moo
Posts: 5066
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Mon Jun 01, 2015 2:38 pm

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 283):
Based on the news reports, it appears that Airbus had installed a new or modified version of the ECU software on the accident aircraft. Therefore it appears that in this case the issue is at Airbus, not at the engine manufacturer.

That heavily depends on why the software installation failed, if indeed it did, and why it was left in the state that it was, if indeed that was what caused the crash.

If Airbus installed an updated software package using the suppliers instructions, and the suppliers documentation did not allow for a verification stage which handled an error state or installation failure which caused this crash, then to all intent and purpose Airbus would have seen a successful install and thus the failure resides with the software supplier.

If Airbus installed the update and ignored the resulting failed installation or error state, or failed to carry out a verification step which would have identified the failed installation or error state, then the failure resides with Airbus.

If Airbus installed an update which succeeded and was recommended by the supplier, had no error state and passed all verification steps, with the error state residing fully within a successful installation, then its a software development bug and should have been detected during QA, CI and testing phases for that version of the software, and hence the failure resides with the software supplier.

If Airbus installed an updated which succeeded but was not recommended by the supplier (why would they have it tho?), then the failure resides in part with both Airbus and the software supplier.

This is way way too soon to call based on who installed what and whether it failed or not.
 
User avatar
Finn350
Posts: 1601
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:57 am

RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Mon Jun 01, 2015 2:49 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 289):
This is way way too soon to call based on who installed what and whether it failed or not.

My assumption is based on Airbus' own statements:

Quote:
Speaking to the German publication Handelsblatt , the chief strategy and marketing officer of Airbus Group, Marwan Lahoud, said that the initial findings of the investigation into the crash of aircraft MSN023 have shown serious quality control issues in final assembly.

"The [recovered] black boxes attest to [there being no design problems with the A400M]," he reportedly said, adding, "There are no structural defects, but we have a serious quality problem in the final assembly."

Source: http://www.janes.com/article/51857/a...l-issues-with-a400m-final-assembly

As I read it, the quality issue appears to be at Airbus, not at the engine manufacturer.
 
User avatar
moo
Posts: 5066
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Mon Jun 01, 2015 3:18 pm

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 290):
My assumption is based on Airbus' own statements:
Quoting Finn350 (Reply 290):
As I read it, the quality issue appears to be at Airbus, not at the engine manufacturer.

As I read it, there is still very little to go on there - we know this aircraft was on its first post-FAL flight, and an engine software update will be part of the final assembly process, as software versions will continue to be incremented during the time it takes for the engine to be built, tested, shipped and finally hung on the wing.

Having a problem with the software at this point would certainly be considered a quality problem in final assembly...

So I refer you back to my earlier post about the current situation  
 
hivue
Posts: 2114
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:26 am

RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Mon Jun 01, 2015 9:50 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 289):
This is way way too soon to call based on who installed what and whether it failed or not.

Is it too soon to ask how on earth there was any possibility at all that engine software apparently installed and/or configured by the airframer on the FAL could function (regardless of its configuration) in such a way as to cause malfunctions in 3 of 4 engines within moments of the plane taking off resulting in an unrecoverable situation?
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
Okie
Posts: 4219
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:30 am

RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Mon Jun 01, 2015 10:42 pm

Quoting hivue (Reply 292):
Is it too soon to ask how on earth there was any possibility at all that engine software apparently installed and/or configured by the airframer on the FAL could function (regardless of its configuration) in such a way as to cause malfunctions in 3 of 4 engines within moments of the plane taking off resulting in an unrecoverable situation?

We do not know at this point exactly what happened with the engines. They could have just rolled back on power or shut down completely. So yes it is pretty early to tell exactly what the issue was.
You could guess on the reason 3 of the 4 shut down because when downloading the proper software to one engine it was thought it would deal with all four engines, just too many scenarios at this point.


We just do not know the specifics other than a Quality Assurance issue at least from reports.

Okie
 
hivue
Posts: 2114
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:26 am

RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:10 am

Quoting Okie (Reply 293):
So yes it is pretty early to tell exactly what the issue was.

That wasn't my question. Reports indicate that this was an engine software issue which had it's origin on Airbus's FAL. I'm just amazed that there was the remotest chance that the FAL would have had any ability at all to do something to the engine-maker's software that could produce such a catastrophic outcome.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
GRIVely
Posts: 143
Joined: Wed Dec 13, 2006 5:46 am

RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:45 am

I appreciate that certain Airbus apologists on here are trying to differentiate between errors caused by Airbus and those attributed to subcontractors. However, if BMW killed a passenger because of an obscure subcontractor-supplied airbag over pressure problem it is still BMW's fault. If the logo says BMW, Boeing, Airbus, Toyota or whatever that company owns the problems their products encounter. So just conduct the requisite thorough process review, fix the problems and drive on.
 
RickNRoll
Posts: 1869
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:30 am

RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:57 am

Quoting GRIVely (Reply 295):
So just conduct the requisite thorough process review, fix the problems and drive on.

As I said already, Airbus has already replaced the head of the program in March, so they were well of the need for a major reorganisation.
 
Okie
Posts: 4219
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:30 am

RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Tue Jun 02, 2015 3:47 am

Quoting hivue (Reply 294):
I'm just amazed that there was the remotest chance that the FAL would have had any ability at all to do something to the engine-maker's software that could produce such a catastrophic outcome.

The issue appears to involve the ECU not the FADEC.
The ECU is going to give the throttle command to the FADEC, open or shut the fuel valve to shut down the engine, possibly control the propeller pitch/feather among other things. I really have no idea exactly all the functions but the point is that the ECU is the interface for engine command.
The where and the why the incorrect software was in the ECU is unknown to the public at this time but one would suspect it may have had something to do with installing/testing the wing load relief that a first on this aircraft during manufacture.


The point is that this is a man safe machine and it should not matter if the ECU was delivered to Airbus with the software for a washing machine. There should be documentation and quality assurance that the proper certified software was correctly installed before release for the first flight.



Okie
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 15690
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Tue Jun 02, 2015 5:12 am

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 283):
Based on the news reports, it appears that Airbus had installed a new or modified version of the ECU software on the accident aircraft. Therefore it appears that in this case the issue is at Airbus, not at the engine manufacturer.

No, installing software is a normal maintenance task, it arrives on a disc, and it get uploaded. The person uploading it has no idea what it contains. It just has a part number, and a version number. Part of the load process is to verify the load, that is automatic.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 284):
Seems in your rush to call other people dumb you overlooked:

No, not at all. You are been consistently looking at blaming Airbus by twisting every word. You are clueless as to what happens here.

You derive enjoyment by putting Airbus down, and the employees that died. No one that is mentally healthy I know derives enjoyment from such things. All you are interested in in your petty point scoring, you have shown no concern at all regarding this accident, to you its a big game.

People died, enough with the petty point scoring.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 285):
I think it is in everyone's best interest, given the high profile of the accident and its impact on a major EU military program, that the report be made public in the end. Airbus has promised full transparency so will likely push for this. And the Spanish authorities, if they want to protect their national industry, would be wise to release it to the public.

As I pointed out previously in the thread, not far fro that A400 crash a Eurofighter came down, nothing has been published from that accident.

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 286):
Any single occurrence does not make an airplane unsafe. But "Lots of defects" may indicate a culture that could produce bad hardware which can lead to unsafe situation.

You are drawing straws which are not there. There is a reason why Boeing and Airbus have stopped offering a great deal of customization of their aircraft these days, they detract from the core product, cause lots of issues, and little added value. Every country on the A400 has a different spec, that should never had been allowed to transpire.

Quoting jollo (Reply 287):
A slight correction: "Airbus has no idea how the ECU software does things on this engine, on a GE, PW, or RR engine. That is for the OEM of the engine to know and maintain."

The internals of the ECU, no OEM knows what it does, nor do they know what the internals of a software update includes.

Quoting moo (Reply 289):
If Airbus installed an updated software package using the suppliers instructions, and the suppliers documentation did not allow for a verification stage which handled an error state or installation failure which caused this crash, then to all intent and purpose Airbus would have seen a successful install and thus the failure resides with the software supplier.

The engine will not start unless the ECU software is loaded properly. One of my previous cars had a fault in the ECU that would trash the transmission after 40,000 km. There was nothing wrong with the transmissions, or the ECU itself, just the software load. Unless you know what the software does, you have no idea what it does to the components its connects to.

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 290):
As I read it, the quality issue appears to be at Airbus, not at the engine manufacturer.

There is not way to link them together. That is like saying there is a manufacturing problem with the tyres installed on the A400, but Airbus fitted and inflated them, so it is their problem. Any ECU software that is loaded, come from the engine manufacturer, the procedures on how to load the software comes from the engine manufacturer, the procedures to check the software come from the engine manufacturer. Troubleshooting relating to the software goes back to the engine manufacturer.

Quoting hivue (Reply 294):
I'm just amazed that there was the remotest chance that the FAL would have had any ability at all to do something to the engine-maker's software that could produce such a catastrophic outcome.

Airbus cannot modify the software at all, that is part of the quality control procedure.

Quoting GRIVely (Reply 295):
However, if BMW killed a passenger because of an obscure subcontractor-supplied airbag over pressure problem it is still BMW's fault. If the logo says BMW, Boeing, Airbus, Toyota or whatever that company owns the problems their products encounter.

No, funny you should mention airbags. Takata the manufacturer of airbags for at least 10 major car manufacturers and associated with a number of deaths is looking at recalling millions of airbags.

Quoting Okie (Reply 297):
The ECU is going to give the throttle command to the FADEC, open or shut the fuel valve to shut down the engine, possibly control the propeller pitch/feather among other things. I really have no idea exactly all the functions but the point is that the ECU is the interface for engine command.

No, you dont know what you are talking about.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
jupiter2
Posts: 1739
Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2001 11:30 am

RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Tue Jun 02, 2015 9:42 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 279):
That is just as dumb as others said above when the German air force find a decal is only 13.5 mm high,
Quoting zeke (Reply 279):
Face it you have ZERO idea how an A400 works, you have ZERO idea of what happens,
Quoting zeke (Reply 298):
No, not at all. You are been consistently looking at blaming Airbus by twisting every word. You are clueless as to what happens here.
Quoting zeke (Reply 298):
No, not at all. You are been consistently looking at blaming Airbus by twisting every word. You are clueless as to what happens here.

You derive enjoyment by putting Airbus down, and the employees that died. No one that is mentally healthy I know derives enjoyment from such things. All you are interested in in your petty point scoring, you have shown no concern at all regarding this accident, to you its a big game.
Quoting zeke (Reply 298):
No, you dont know what you are talking about.

Zeke, you really are a rude and arrogant person at times, these quotes are from just your last 2 replies and this whole thread is full of them.

No one on here, except for yourself has professed to be an A400 expert, they have speculated from what has been publicly released and quite honestly, most of the discussion that has been had has been levelled headed, without jumping to ridiculous conclusions. No one here has given any semblance of "point scoring" one manufacturer over another. Everyone has expressed remorse at the death and injuries of the unfortunate Airbus employees involved. The only person who seems intent on making this a manufacturer discussion is yourself.

What does seem, if what has been released publicly, is true, is that Airbus have a quality control issue on the A400. Whether this be decal sizing, or the installation of software, something went drastically wrong on this particular aircraft. It is academic whether the software fault is the fault of the engine manufacturer or their software provider, ultimately responsibility will lie with Airbus, whether you Zeke, believe that or not. If a plane crashes and the final report comes out weeks, months, or years later and blames a faulty part, made by a small company in some obscure town, Joe public doesn't care. All they see and know is that aircraft "X" flown by airline "Y" crashed, they don't care if a small part failure escalated into a disaster, it was still a disaster.

What I will say here is that Airbus are making all the right noises, they are admitting quality control issues, they seem to be going out of their way to keep everyone as up to date as possible. Airbus have not always been so transparent when it has come to accident investigations, hopefully this is the way of the future.

What I am finding puzzling here though, is surely this aircraft had engine runs after the software was installed, taxi tests and the like, why didn't this fault surface during those tests.

[Edited 2015-06-02 02:43:11]
  • 1
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
  • 8

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 18 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos