bilgerat
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India Caps Rafale Acquisition At 36 Aircraft

Sat May 23, 2015 1:44 pm

This puts to bed the speculation as to what India's recent announcement of a direct Rafale acquisition from France meant for the wider MMRCA deal:

https://www.defenseworld.net/news/13007/India_To_Cap_Dassault_Rafale_Orders_At_36__Defense_Minister#.VWAC20Zlx9k

36 aircraft to be purchased directly from France. No production in India. The money saved will be ploughed into the Tejas LCA acquisition.

Altogether a very long, protracted and painful process. Let the post mortem begin....
 
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Aesma
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RE: India Caps Rafale Acquisition At 36 Aircraft

Sat May 23, 2015 3:06 pm

It puts it to bed for some time only, after all a straight order was never expected and still it happened.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
ZeeZoo
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RE: India Caps Rafale Acquisition At 36 Aircraft

Sat May 23, 2015 4:00 pm

I highly doubt this. To implement a new aircraft type in such few numbers causes more hassle and problems than provides relief and solutions.

India ordered a set number of Su-30MKIs and then increased that order gradually, India ordered a set number of MiG-29s and impressed by its performance and its suitability for its aircraft carriers it proceeded ahead with orders for the naval MiG-29K version, India ordered a set number of Mirage 2000s and was then impressed by its performance in Kargil and then pursued Dassault for more (didn't come to fruition), India ordered a set number of C-17s and is now impressed by its performance and is hence following up on purchasing further C-17 whitetails, India inked the deal for 6 C-130s back in '08 and inked another deal for a further 6 C-130s back in '13 and it is very likely that India will order further P-8is (an expected 16 more despite the initial order being 8).

Spot the pattern?

This is most definitely India's way of saying "Give us a better deal".
 
bilgerat
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RE: India Caps Rafale Acquisition At 36 Aircraft

Sat May 23, 2015 8:36 pm

Quoting ZeeZoo (Reply 2):

I highly doubt this. To implement a new aircraft type in such few numbers causes more hassle and problems than provides relief and solutions.

Bear in mind this is a country that apparently plans to have no less than SEVEN different types of fast jet in front line service by the end of the decade. I don't think efficiency in logistics and support is very high up the Indian's list of priorities.
 
ZeeZoo
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RE: India Caps Rafale Acquisition At 36 Aircraft

Sat May 23, 2015 9:19 pm

Yes but for a country of India's size and of the IAF's requirements it's standard. Take a look at the US'/Russia's/China's airforce, that's where India is aiming to be and IAF has a penchant for importing. It's the Su-30MKI/Tejas/Rafale/MiG-29/Mirage-2000/MiG-21/Jaguar by 2020. In the 2020s, it'll (as planned) be the Su-30MKI/Tejas/Rafale/MiG-29/AMCA/FGFA (Pak-FA)/Mirage 2000 and I highly suspect the F35 will be purchased for the Navy and it's not including the Apaches, the Chinooks, the expected E-2 Hawkeye, the C-130s, the C-17s, the P8-Is and the Ilyushins.

I've always found Russia's air force to be all over the place: MiG-29/MiG-31/Su-24 (why is that even in service?)/Su-25 (why is that even in service?)/Su-27/Su-30/Su-34/Su-35/Tu-22M/Tu-95/Tu-160 (this baby is back). They've got the same problem as India, they're upgrading dross fighter jets from a bygone era.

[Edited 2015-05-23 14:19:54]
 
BarfBag
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RE: India Caps Rafale Acquisition At 36 Aircraft

Sun May 31, 2015 6:11 pm

Quoting ZeeZoo (Reply 2):
India ordered a set number of Su-30MKIs and then increased that order gradually,

As someone who followed the Su 30MKI news way back in the 1990s, that is quite wrong. The MKIs were never ordered as one single batch. HAL Nashik and Koraput were always meant to license manufacture them, and invested in tooling way back then. They were always going to be built in numbers in India, with the only question being how many. The MKI is a tailormade aircraft to Indian specs, while Rafale is an off the shelf model.

The MRCA deal is a different matter. The LCA today is a comparable aircraft in terms of technology and capability, to early Rafales. The incremental cost of getting the latest Rafales today can just as well be spend on a greater quantity of far cheaper LCAs. The LCA is only going to keep improving - its current version is a far more competent platform than the first test flight prototype in 2001.

The Rafale is better than the LCA today, but we can also build 3-4 LCAs for the cost of procuring 1 Rafale, and the Rafale is not anywhere near being better than 3-4 LCAs. It's simply a more evolved but similarly 4.5gen fighter. Further, all investment into LCAs makes us richer and more capable, rather than simply handing over money to others - in this case, the French.

The Su-30MKI didn't have such an issue. There was no large fighter in development then, whereas during the course of time, a local aircraft once meant to replace Mig-21s grew in to a big enough platform to make the Rafale deal largely superfluous, and that's why the Rafale is now a stopgap arrangement - today it serves nothing more than to plug a hole in deteriorating force levels between MiG 23/27 rampdown and LCA production ramp up.

The Rafale (unless it is scuttled if LCA production ramps up faster than expected) is probably the last western fighter India will buy, and the PAK-FA likewise will probably be the last Russian one.
 
ZeeZoo
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RE: India Caps Rafale Acquisition At 36 Aircraft

Sun May 31, 2015 7:13 pm

Apologies, didn't know about the Su-30 MKI in such detail but it made for an interesting tidbit.

It's been clarified, in English rather than in Hindi (apparently the DM isn't as clear and proficient in Hindi as he is in Marathi & English), that it is agreed that 36 will be the maximum. On one hand if the requirements demand it and the economy picks up they may have to back on that yet on the otherhand I highly doubt the DM will made to look a fool once again. Apparently what the issue is is that the DM picked apart the Rafale's provided calculations and discovered that they were not as pretty when applied to operating in an Indian environment.
 
Ozair
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RE: India Caps Rafale Acquisition At 36 Aircraft

Sun May 31, 2015 9:03 pm

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 5):
The Rafale (unless it is scuttled if LCA production ramps up faster than expected) is probably the last western fighter India will buy, and the PAK-FA likewise will probably be the last Russian one.

With your above statement in mind how do you anticipate India will move forward with their carrier aviation as they look to induct the next larger vessel? Will we see a CATOBAR version of the Tejas MK2?
 
ZeeZoo
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RE: India Caps Rafale Acquisition At 36 Aircraft

Sun May 31, 2015 10:27 pm

^^^ Likely to be F35 although Russia have their 100,000 tonne Project 23000E in which a navalised PAK FA will feature. GoI might be uneasy with the IN featuring a front line fighter that is American.

Interestingly enough, a Tejas "MK1P" is slated for a 2018 introduction:

"The current LCA-MkI version uses 210 kilos with ballast in the nose to stabilize the aircraft. This will be removed, and the AESA and EW suite weighing about 250 kilos will be added. The net weight gain will be of about 50 kilos."

AESA + EW suite + possibility of IRST would be very handy indeed and would be a signicant boost to the Tejas project, it'll at least entice the IAF to keep the production line running until the Mk2.

[Edited 2015-05-31 15:32:07]
 
BarfBag
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RE: India Caps Rafale Acquisition At 36 Aircraft

Mon Jun 01, 2015 3:15 am

Quoting Ozair (Reply 7):
With your above statement in mind how do you anticipate India will move forward with their carrier aviation as they look to induct the next larger vessel? Will we see a CATOBAR version of the Tejas MK2?

Probably. There's an LCA Navy that's already successfully performed STOBAR ops at the SBTF in Goa. Its primary weakness is the lack of grunt of the GE F404, which will go away with the GE F414s on the Mk2 NLCA. In any case, the next carrier, probably a CATOBAR one, won't be ready until the early 2020s. INS Vikrant (which is a STOBAR carrier) just launched yesterday. After sea trials, it will be inducted in ~2017. The second carrier (and perhaps a third) will be in the 70,000 ton range, and will have CATOBAR, but their timelines are such that there's plenty of time to get a CATOBAR NLCA ready. In the meantime there will be MiG-29Ks and NLCAs operating off both the Vikramaditya and new Vikrant.
 
Ozair
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RE: India Caps Rafale Acquisition At 36 Aircraft

Mon Jun 01, 2015 12:51 pm

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 9):

Probably. There's an LCA Navy that's already successfully performed STOBAR ops at the SBTF in Goa. Its primary weakness is the lack of grunt of the GE F404, which will go away with the GE F414s on the Mk2 NLCA. In any case, the next carrier, probably a CATOBAR one, won't be ready until the early 2020s.

Appreciate your comments although I don't agree with your optimism. I think the LCA has quite a way to go before it can prove to be called a 4.5Gen airframe. I also doubt that Mk2 will arrive within the expected time frame as there are just enough changes to make it significantly more challenging than it would appear to be.

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 5):
if LCA production ramps up faster than expected

How confident are you that India/HAL can meet the domestic production demand for the airframe?
 
BarfBag
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RE: India Caps Rafale Acquisition At 36 Aircraft

Mon Jun 01, 2015 4:07 pm

Quoting Ozair (Reply 10):
Appreciate your comments although I don't agree with your optimism. I think the LCA has quite a way to go before it can prove to be called a 4.5Gen airframe.

4G/4.5G airframe classification is not a subjective measure made on the basis of individual optimism or the lack of it. It's a classification based on the technologies applied to the aircraft: relaxed static stability in the airframe, ideally digital fly by wire, use of composites in the airframe, use of IRST and an AESA radar being primary technological boxes to tick.

In that regard, the LCA marks all the boxes. If the argument is that the local AESA is still not integrated, then I'll point out that
a) the EF2K did not have a CAPTOR-E installed until very recently, years after induction. That is simply a timeline issue; the Uttam AESA radar will soon replace it's current MMR.
b) Gripen has no supercruise either, because the RM12, like the F404, does not. It gains supercruise when it uses the F414, just like LCA

If others were accorded the benefit of advanced classification even though they did not have every last technology ready at IOC, then I see no reason why the LCA cannot receive the exact same benefit. It's upto you to prove why, instead of assuming you get to arbitrarily decide, with no other reason given.

Quoting Ozair (Reply 10):
How confident are you that India/HAL can meet the domestic production demand for the airframe?

More so because Modi prefers manufacturing in India, and because they already permanently kneecapped the Rafale acquisition. It's already gone from 126 to 'only 36 for now' to 'at most 36' .

The French were given a very simple deal: we'll pay you $4 billion for 36 Rafales. Take it or leave it. Hollande was asked to convince Dassault to make the price work. Now they want to do 'price nagotiations'. We have no interest in that. They can either sign and provide a delivery date, or we'll simply say 'look, 36 is too little for all this trouble, and we have this other plane. No deal'.
 
ThePointblank
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RE: India Caps Rafale Acquisition At 36 Aircraft

Tue Jun 02, 2015 5:10 am

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 11):
4G/4.5G airframe classification is not a subjective measure made on the basis of individual optimism or the lack of it. It's a classification based on the technologies applied to the aircraft: relaxed static stability in the airframe, ideally digital fly by wire, use of composites in the airframe, use of IRST and an AESA radar being primary technological boxes to tick.

You are also missing one key capability: limited sensor fusion capabilities. In short, the aircraft's avionics should have some ability to merge multiple sensors together to create a single picture, beyond advanced high bandwidth data link capabilities.
 
Ozair
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RE: India Caps Rafale Acquisition At 36 Aircraft

Tue Jun 02, 2015 8:37 am

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 11):

4G/4.5G airframe classification is not a subjective measure made on the basis of individual optimism or the lack of it.

It is quite subjective.

The following outlines the five different classifications that have been proposed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_fighter_generations

Based on all of those different classifications the LCA probably qualifies as a fourth but I don't think it makes that next step to 4.5/4++ etc. As Pointblank suggests, the avionics on the LCA are probably the limiting factor in that it is unlikely to be integrated in the way we see with so called 4.5G aircraft.

Interestingly Times of India seem to think the SU-30MKI is a 4.5G aircraft but, personal opinion, I don't consider any of the Su-27/30 series to sit in that category, nor the Gripen C or F-16F.

 
Ozair
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RE: India Caps Rafale Acquisition At 36 Aircraft

Tue Jun 02, 2015 10:10 am

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 11):

The French were given a very simple deal: we'll pay you $4 billion for 36 Rafales

Some figures being put out regarding costing.

The ballpark cost per aircraft as per Dassault's winning bid for the 126 MMRCA programme — the old, nowscrapped, Rafale deal — came to about $300 million, taking into account the estimates of Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL). Sources told ET that the objective was to bring this down to a little over $200 million apiece.

The overall cost is not expected to cross $8 billion for the entire 36-aircraft fleet, French sources said.

The price per aircraft is not just the acquisition cost of the platform, but also includes maintenance facilities, training of pilots and technicians, armaments and spares. In comparison, Dassault signed a deal with Qatar on Monday to sell 24 Rafale fighters for $7 billion, which would put the per-aircraft cost at just over $290 million.


http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...ale-jets/articleshow/47168431.cms?
 
BarfBag
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RE: India Caps Rafale Acquisition At 36 Aircraft

Tue Jun 02, 2015 3:50 pm

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 12):
You are also missing one key capability: limited sensor fusion capabilities.

Sensor fusion is pretty much the last thing to be developed in every 4G fighter. It really is not something you can conclusively have ready at initial operational clearance because it by definition involves bringing together a bunch of things first developed and validated independently.

For example, I question how one can claim comprehensive sensor fusion in the EF2K anytime before 2 years ago when it finally got a CAPTOR-E. It clearly wasn't in its final configuration before that. Similarly, the Rafale has a partly analog FBW system, whereas the LCA has a fully digital quadruplex redundant FBW system, like the Gripen or EF2K.

My point is, randomly picking one item and stating 'LCA isn't XYZ because it doesn't have this' lets me do the same with any other contender now claiming that same status by 'common wisdom', or whatever passes for it.

Quoting Ozair (Reply 13):
Based on all of those different classifications the LCA probably qualifies as a fourth but I don't think it makes that next step to 4.5/4++ etc.

The LCA most definitely is a 4th gen fighter, whereas 4.5/4++ is largely marketing speak, first used by Lockheed to distinguish itself against other 4G aircraft. In various places, the Gripen, Rafale and EF2K are all quoted as 4.5 gen, even if they lack or lacked one or more of the distinguishing requirements. Since the LCA is a 4th gen aircraft for certain, there's no reason we can't do the same marketing handwaving Lockheed does, eh ?

Quoting Ozair (Reply 14):
The overall cost is not expected to cross $8 billion for the entire 36-aircraft fleet, French sources said.

"French sources said". That answers everything. It looks like they haven't gotten over the wheeling and dealing of the MRCA process. Unlike before, isn't a negotiation between Dassault and us anymore. It's between Dassault and the French government.
 
angad84
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RE: India Caps Rafale Acquisition At 36 Aircraft

Tue Jun 02, 2015 8:06 pm

I was steering clear of this discussion because I've been really busy lately and didn't want to get sucked in, but I guess best laid plans etc...

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 15):
because it by definition involves bringing together a bunch of things first developed and validated independently.

Debatable. Sensor fusion itself can be (I would say should be) as sensor independent as possible. It's the architecture and execution that matter. MMI and SA are arguably as important, if not more, than pure kinetic performance in the 4(plus) generation battlespace. So without a definitive avionics fit and no EW, at least in the LCA Mk.1, the first 40 aircraft should just suck it up and roll without the SA advantage that proper sensor fusion brings? For how long?

All that said, there's no question that the laughable rate of development on the Eurocanards cannot be held up as a comparison for the LCA at IOC. The Rafale still doesn't have a HMD!

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 15):
before 2 years ago when it finally got a CAPTOR-E

This is confusing. The first CAPTOR-E — a development prototype — flew back in 2008, if I recall correctly. The order to go ahead and develop the radar for production was only signed last year. What exactly happened two years ago?

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 15):
Similarly, the Rafale has a partly analog FBW system, whereas the LCA has a fully digital quadruplex redundant FBW system, like the Gripen or EF2K

This is something that is often (ignorantly) trotted out in online discussions and annoys me no end. "Partly analog" is nonsense. It is a quadruple redundant FBW system with 3 digital channels and a backup analog channel. The last backup channel is analog, and frankly, that's simply intelligent engineering. I'd paint that as an advantage for the Rafale.

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 15):
My point is, randomly picking one item and stating 'LCA isn't XYZ because it doesn't have this' lets me do the same with any other contender now claiming that same status by 'common wisdom', or whatever passes for it.

Yes, that's why this generation crap is getting old (thanks LM!). Throw it all away and compare system vs system in reasonably likely conflict environments. Would I want Tejases (sp?) getting into furballs with Vipers and Sino-Flankers? Heck, would I want them in any sort of engagement with contemporary adversary aircraft? Where does the the Tejas fit into the IAF's OrBat and how does it (or can it be made to) be a net contributor?

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 15):
there's no reason we can't do the same marketing handwaving Lockheed does, eh ?

If he jumps into a well...?

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 15):
"French sources said". That answers everything.

Hah! Too true! I'm with you on this - I'd be pretty surprised if they manage even these 36.

36 a/c is a squadron and a half by IAF standards (typically 20 a/c per sqn). Spending any amount of money, let alone $8 bn, on a one squadron and an OCU for a new type (think ot the attendant logistics nightmare!) is moronic. Given the prices Egypt and Qatar paid for their 24-a/c purchases, I frankly don't even think $8 bn is likely — unless the GoI (or MoD) is so craven that they will literally buy barebones aircraft, minus any weapons or extra equipment, just to make the deal happen. Don't forget, they did it once before, and it was a French aircraft then as well...

OTOH, maybe France is offering behind the scenes sweeteners. The nuclear carrot isn't a new trick for the French...

Cheers
A
 
BarfBag
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RE: India Caps Rafale Acquisition At 36 Aircraft

Wed Jun 03, 2015 2:37 am

Quoting angad84 (Reply 16):
If he jumps into a well...?

Cmon yaar, you are bringing a serious discussion into this - I'm just toying with this nonsense about "X is 4.5gen because we selectively say so, and Y is not, because we selectively say so as well."

Quoting angad84 (Reply 16):
"Partly analog" is nonsense. It is a quadruple redundant FBW system with 3 digital channels and a backup analog channel.

I'm making that specific point because it's self serving, not because I've any high minded ideal in search of truth etc here.

Had it been the LCA that had 3x digital + 1x analog, you can bet your last rupee there would be western naysayers claiming how it's third world backward because they have 4x digital redundant FBW. That's the general tenor of arguments about the LCA - what it lacks irredeemably condemns it to a lower standard, while western designs have 'intelligent engineering' or 'are in development'.

Therefore I argue the opposite. Rafale's FBW is essentially set in stone, and they still have a 'backward' analog dedundant channel. Whereas the LCA not only has a quadruple redundant digital FBW system, but it didn't - unlike the Gripen - end up with spectacular hull losses arising from FBW software glitches. Likewise, nothing can be conclusively stated about the LCA's sensor fusion until all the avionics bits come together.

Quoting angad84 (Reply 16):
OTOH, maybe France is offering behind the scenes sweeteners. The nuclear carrot isn't a new trick for the French...

The French are getting the Jaitapur nuclear power plant, which when done will be the largest single nuclear power installation in the world. The Rafale deal on the other hand, will be kept alive in French sources, it seems.
 
angad84
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RE: India Caps Rafale Acquisition At 36 Aircraft

Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:37 am

I'm not sure how one goes from this:

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 17):
Therefore I argue the opposite. Rafale's FBW is essentially set in stone, and they still have a 'backward' analog dedundant channel. Whereas the LCA not only has a quadruple redundant digital FBW system, but it didn't - unlike the Gripen - end up with spectacular hull losses arising from FBW software glitches.

to this:

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 17):
Likewise, nothing can be conclusively stated about the LCA's sensor fusion until all the avionics bits come together.

... unless you're still being facetious, in which case, whoops.

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 17):
The French are getting the Jaitapur nuclear power plant

TBH, I was thinking more along the lines of SSN/SSBN reactors and/or access to French simulation facilities. It's no secret that the 1998 test, while successful in producing a weapon was not completely satisfactory. India can't risk popping another nuke in the desert, but I'm sure they'd be very interested in refining their warheads to maximise yield, particularly given the paucity of available nuclear material.

Cheers
A
 
Ozair
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RE: India Caps Rafale Acquisition At 36 Aircraft

Wed Jun 03, 2015 8:59 pm

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 17):
I'm just toying with this nonsense about "X is 4.5gen because we selectively say so, and Y is not, because we selectively say so as well."

Not sure why you would say this given you were the one to introduce 4.5gen etc into the discussion, then claimed it was not subjective and then reversed your claim about what generation the LCA fits into...

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 5):

The Rafale is better than the LCA today, but we can also build 3-4 LCAs for the cost of procuring 1 Rafale, and the Rafale is not anywhere near being better than 3-4 LCAs. It's simply a more evolved but similarly 4.5gen fighter.
Quoting BarfBag (Reply 11):
4G/4.5G airframe classification is not a subjective measure made on the basis of individual optimism or the lack of it.
Quoting BarfBag (Reply 15):
The LCA most definitely is a 4th gen fighter, whereas 4.5/4 is largely marketing speak

Not sure why you mentioned this

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 15):
the EF2K anytime before 2 years ago when it finally got a CAPTOR-E.

as CAPTOR-E is not flying on a single operational Eurofighter. There is nothing limiting an aircraft having great avionics and system integration when using a MSA over a AESA, it is just that the operational advantages of an AESA are significant enough that it is silly to not use an AESA if you have the option to.

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 15):
"French sources said". That answers everything. It looks like they haven't gotten over the wheeling and dealing of the MRCA process. Unlike before, isn't a negotiation between Dassault and us anymore. It's between Dassault and the French government.

I think the 8 Billion figure is pretty realistic. 4 Billion or so for the airframes and then another 4 Billion for weapons, training and facilities. French weapons aren't cheap, especially given their low production runs compared, and it appears the intention is that India won't train any Rafale aircrew domestically.

Has anyone seen a breakdown on what version India intend on acquiring, from a single seat to two seat ratio?
 
BarfBag
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RE: India Caps Rafale Acquisition At 36 Aircraft

Thu Jun 04, 2015 2:52 am

Quoting Ozair (Reply 19):
Not sure why you would say this given you were the one to introduce 4.5gen etc into the discussion

And I don't recall you bringing anything into the discussion to back up your argument, besides lack of optimism. That's not a technical parameter, I'm afraid.

Quoting Ozair (Reply 19):
I think the 8 Billion figure is pretty realistic.

"Realistic" in what sense ? We really aren't desperate for this deal anymore. What we really want, is behind the scenes nuclear technology, as Angad mentioned. If the French do give up and accept our Rafale terms, fine. If not, they chase their tails making the number work. I'm simply pointing out that your "French sources said" reference to 'price negotiations' is nonsense.

Quoting angad84 (Reply 18):
... unless you're still being facetious, in which case, whoops.

 
 
Ozair
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RE: India Caps Rafale Acquisition At 36 Aircraft

Thu Jun 04, 2015 6:29 am

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 20):
And I don't recall you bringing anything into the discussion to back up your argument, besides lack of optimism. That's not a technical parameter, I'm afraid.

Your right, linking a website that lists the five respective classification schemes as well as explaining why I don't consider the LCA 4.5G is not adding anything else to the discussion...

Quoting Ozair (Reply 13):
It is quite subjective.

The following outlines the five different classifications that have been proposed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_fighter_generations

Based on all of those different classifications the LCA probably qualifies as a fourth but I don't think it makes that next step to 4.5/4++ etc. As Pointblank suggests, the avionics on the LCA are probably the limiting factor in that it is unlikely to be integrated in the way we see with so called 4.5G aircraft.
Quoting BarfBag (Reply 20):
"Realistic" in what sense ?

As in a realistic price to pay for what the French are offering. The Australian SH order was 6 Billion for 24 aircraft and a similar arrangement on weapons, spares, facilities etc.

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 20):
We really aren't desperate for this deal anymore

I disagree, the Indian Air Force continues to shrink in size, below minimum mandated force numbers, and at least for the next ten years total aircraft numbers will decrease and not increase. HAL won't be able to produce the number of LCA to fill these numbers. That is where Rafale, or another external airframe, is required. If you don't need to make the minimum squadron numbers then fair enough, Rafale can come or go.
 
bilgerat
Topic Author
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RE: India Caps Rafale Acquisition At 36 Aircraft

Thu Jun 04, 2015 10:38 pm

Am I the only person that believes categorising fighters into generational groupings is a stupid idea that only came about when somebody needed to justify the enormous cost of the F-22 (and now F-35)?
 
BarfBag
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RE: India Caps Rafale Acquisition At 36 Aircraft

Fri Jun 05, 2015 2:32 am

Quoting Ozair (Reply 21):
Your right, linking a website that lists the five respective classification schemes as well as explaining why I don't consider the LCA 4.5G is not adding anything else to the discussion...

Good grief. The very picture you quoted contradicts you, and demonstrates that the LCA *is* a 4+ generation fighter. That's why your 'lack of optimism' is so bizarre.

Quoting Ozair (Reply 21):
As in a realistic price to pay for what the French are offering.

We already quoted them a number, based on their L1 bid for the F3 standard. If they can't make it work because they want to sell us F3Rs for inflated prices, that's their problem, to be negotiated between Dassault and the French Government. They won the deal based on bid X. We make them stick to X.

Quoting Ozair (Reply 21):
I disagree, the Indian Air Force continues to shrink in size, below minimum mandated force numbers, a

LOL! It has been below 'minimum mandated force numbers' for 2 decades now. And what's worse, the Rafale isn't going to solve it. In fact, the 36 fighter deal is about the worst way to deal with it - add one more operational type with a high acquisition cost and lack of parts commonality with anything else.

Goldplated Eurocanards are best suited for their specific purpose: as a European job program,with limited combat utility in support of US led operations. They are far too expensive even for Euros to run in number, much less for us. What's worse, the Europeans won't have the balls to supply us in the midst of a shooting war with China, and Modi knows it.
 
Ozair
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RE: India Caps Rafale Acquisition At 36 Aircraft

Fri Jun 05, 2015 11:14 pm

Quoting bilgerat (Reply 22):
Am I the only person that believes categorising fighters into generational groupings is a stupid idea

I think few people disagre with you. It is a subjective system that can be mis-interpreted. Problem is even with its limitations the generation concept is accepted. So much so we hear comments about generations from the US congress. I'm not sure of a valid alternative method to categorize fighter aircraft but

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 23):
Good grief. The very picture you quoted contradicts you, and demonstrates that the LCA *is* a 4+ generation fighter. That's why your 'lack of optimism' is so bizarre.

If you actually read what I wrote before posting the picture you would see that I used it to demonstrate how subjective the system is and how easy it can be mis-interpreted.

Optimism has everything to do with it. LCA, like Gripen E and F-35, are not in their final configurations. You need to make an assessment on where they are at and where they will be to determine what they will reach. You have chosen to be optimistic about what the LCA will become just like I am optimistic about what the F-35 will become.

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 23):

LOL! It has been below 'minimum mandated force numbers' for 2 decades now.

Actually, if you look at the overall squadron numbers they have been pretty static between 30-32 squadrons for at least the last 15 years or so. The next five years have always been the tipping point though when MiG-21 was going to fall over and be replaced by LCA and MMRCA. Delays of both will cripple Indian Air Force capability, especially when you factor in the low serviceability numbers India has. It will takes significantly longer to restore capability/experience in this instances than it does to replace existing airframes of standing squadrons.
Some decent info including squadron numbers can be found here, http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...ia/air-force-equipment-fighter.htm

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 23):
In fact, the 36 fighter deal is about the worst way to deal with it - add one more operational type with a high acquisition cost and lack of parts commonality with anything else.

Not disagreeing with you. I have stated that exact position in the previous thread.

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 23):
Goldplated Eurocanards are best suited for their specific purpose: as a European job program,with limited combat utility in support of US led operations. They are far too expensive even for Euros to run in number, much less for us. What's worse, the Europeans won't have the balls to supply us in the midst of a shooting war with China, and Modi knows it.

Good planes don't come cheap but I agree that both programs have cost too much for the capability they provided. As for a shooting war with China, India needs to prepare and stock for such an eventuality or return all those aircraft and systems they have acquired from western suppliers.
 
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RE: India Caps Rafale Acquisition At 36 Aircraft

Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:32 am

Quoting Ozair (Reply 24):
If you actually read what I wrote before posting the picture you would see that I used it to demonstrate how subjective the system is and how easy it can be mis-interpreted.

LCA is clearly a 4th generation aircraft at minimum. 4th generation airframes utilize a relaxed stability airframe with fly by wire and have multirole capability. The LCA satisfies all these, already. The nature of how it accomplishes these objectives enables the manufacturer to assert whether or not it's a 4.5/4+ whatever. If you accomplish the bare minimum, 4th generation is fine. If it goes significantly beyond, it is the producers privilege to assert 4.5/4+ gen as a marketing effort. It really isn't upto some third party to be the judge here.

Quoting Ozair (Reply 24):
Delays of both will cripple Indian Air Force capability, especially when you factor in the low serviceability numbers India has.

And your claim is that the Rafale is the panacea for this ? You must be joking. If the deal were signed right this minute, they STILL won't have any planes ready until 2017-18, when the F3Rs is ready for manufacture.

Quoting Ozair (Reply 24):
Good planes don't come cheap but I agree that both programs have cost too much for the capability they provided.

The Rafale, Eurofighter and Gripen completely pointless at the current purchase levels. Just 2 squadrons, with a fat logistics tail, backed by countries who have no guts to stand up to China. In fact, I doubt even the Americans would do so today.

Like I stated before, the Rafale may be better than the LCA today, but it's not better than 2, 3 or 4 LCAs today, nor will it be tomorrow. That's the range of extra LCAs we can build for the price of one Rafale, depending on how much we fit out into each LCA. It's no wonder the Indian political firmament is busy sabotaging this legacy deal they've been saddled with.

If the IAF doesn't fall in line, I expect Modi to effect a purge of their top ranks to place those with engineering experience in high positions, capable of working with a domestic military industrial complex instead of caterwauling for shiny imported baubles.
 
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RE: India Caps Rafale Acquisition At 36 Aircraft

Mon Jun 08, 2015 1:46 pm

Filler for double post.

Apologies

[Edited 2015-06-08 06:48:47]
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RE: India Caps Rafale Acquisition At 36 Aircraft

Mon Jun 08, 2015 1:47 pm

Although patriotism is quite admirable, a bit of senbse of realities is needed in India...
And a lot fewer insults for foreign countries.
You don't want the Rafale, the Gripen or the Eurofighter ?
Fine... it's your loss and vulnerability.
The Rafale won't be available until 2018 ? Blame your overinflated, incompetent asinine bureaucracy... because if you'd need threee LCAs to match one Rafale, what makes you so sure that you'd be able to build 108 + Tejas in the time of the Rafale deliveries?
Especially when the Mark II isn't even flying.

The Tejas is the panacea ? You just gargle the silly ads about fourth + or 5th gen... What I've seen of the Tejas is a vastly inferior airplane than the Gripen - let alone the Rafale. The air displays reminded me of what could be seen of the Gnat or the Hunter era : pretty maneuvers, like a slow waltz when what is required is rock'n roll. On youtube someone has measured the best Tejas turn performance at less than half its same gen colleagues, very very far from the 360°/18sec the Rafale or the F-22 can achieve.
And you'd want us to believe that sort of maneuverability is what you'd need on ground troop support ?.. or on a dog fight ?
Get real !

In order to have a national, viable warplane, India will need apart from HAL some 50 subcontractors at the top of modern technology : avionics, aerodynamics, modern materials... able to deliver on time and on specs... The proof of that total incapacity is your country's need for Dassault to guarantee your own quality...
You just couldn't, and that with spares and equipment licenced to you.

History has a way to come back in circles : Some time ago, the Mirage 2000 saved your skins, even with some dodgy playing about with equipment you did njot have - because once again your bureaucracy tried to save a few rupees... Two squadrons did the job at Kargil.

Of course, the Sukhois could do more - I hope for your sake that they do at the less than the 50% availability rate they've brilliantly demonstrated (let alone the Indian new landing technique of ejecting the pilot before touch-down    )... Fact is the Rafale carries exactly the same ordnance weight as the Su for half the size, and in a more integrated suite...

The day your national Tejas can match a Gripen, an Eurofighter or an F-18 air display, or perform a square dance maneuver in the confines of a demo like thje Rafale, you can come back and crow all your fill.

Until then, it's just offensive, insulting verbal diaorrhea, and totally uncalled for.

[Edited 2015-06-08 06:47:50]
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RE: India Caps Rafale Acquisition At 36 Aircraft

Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:52 pm

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 23):
Goldplated Eurocanards are best suited for their specific purpose: as a European job program,with limited combat utility in support of US led operations. They are far too expensive even for Euros to run in number, much less for us. What's worse, the Europeans won't have the balls to supply us in the midst of a shooting war with China, and Modi knows it.

With India wanting to have multiple aircraft carriers, I see this purchase as being a very sensible solution, even if their only role is as insurance policy against delays in domestic development of their own platforms. If you wanted a proven carrier based airframe, something that is good enough to keep Russia, China, and Pakistan in their box, India really only have a choice of the F/A-18 or the Rafale if the Tejas does not work as planned. I would not be surprised if the Rafale had a better combat radius and payload compared o the MiG-29K off an Indian carrier.

The choice them comes down to what the carrier can launch, are you going for a large carrier, or a mix of pocket carriers and large carriers ?

Both the F/A-18 and Rafale have a good mix of weapons systems available with long range, more than capable to continue the floating target practice off the Somali coast.

While the Gripen or the Eurofighter have been mentioned, neither are really carrier ready, which would limit their future use.
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RE: India Caps Rafale Acquisition At 36 Aircraft

Tue Jun 09, 2015 4:28 am

Quoting Pihero (Reply 27):
The Rafale won't be available until 2018 ? Blame your overinflated, incompetent asinine bureaucracy.

That's entirely Dassault's own timeline. The French are not in a position to deliver F3 today, and are not in a position to deliver F3R until 2018. Nothing to do with India.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 27):
In order to have a national, viable warplane, India will need apart from HAL some 50 subcontractors at the top of modern technology : avionics, aerodynamics, modern materials... able to deliver on time and on specs

Which is exactly what we're building today. Better we have that infrastructure rather than the French.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 27):
Of course, the Sukhois could do more - I hope for your sake that they do at the less than the 50% availability rate they've brilliantly demonstrated

50% availability out of 270 off MKIs is still way more than entire Rafale fleet of the Adl'A . Further, since the French have not delivered a single Rafale to the IAF as yet, it's current availability is 0% .

The French cannot so the simple job of selling a plane that the price they bid. They were the L1 bidder and used the price of the F3 for their bid, but then admit that the F3 is out of production and offer the F3R for 50% more, deliveries starting in 2018.

The Russians, despite the kneejerk Russophobic Europeans here mocking them, provided us Su30Ks, replaced them with MKIs as they became available, and even covered attrition replacements. When the Indonesians couldn't take deliveries, they were happy to refurb those to MKI standard and offer that to us as well. Your paranoia of the Russians is your own problem. If France had as much business sense as the Russians once did, it would have immediately offered deliveries of off the shelf F3s, and progressively replaced them with F3Rs at your own cost, like the Russians did. The Russians are no saints, but what they did with the MKIs is far better than what France managed with the Rafale, and that is a fact.

Quoting zeke (Reply 28):
With India wanting to have multiple aircraft carriers, I see this purchase as being a very sensible solution, even if their only role is as insurance policy against delays in domestic development of their own platforms. If you wanted a proven carrier based airframe,

Impossible. The elevators on both the Vikrant and Vikramaditya are too narrow for the Rafale-M, which doesn't have foldable wings unlike the MiG29K. The elevators are just right for the Tejas and MiG29Ks.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 27):
The air displays reminded me of what could be seen of the Gnat or the Hunter era : pretty maneuvers, like a slow waltz when what is required is rock'n roll.

Sexy air show displays are not part of the Tejas' staff requirement. In fact, IAF does not stress the MKIs at airshows either. The Russians might, but never the IAF. The only entities they authorize to perform such acts are the SKAT team and the Sarang Dhruv helicopter aerobatic team.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 27):
The day your national Tejas can match a Gripen, an Eurofighter or an F-18 air display, o

You're completely misunderstanding our purchase goal here. We are not buying aircraft to impress the Chinese at airshows, though I'm certain the Rafale will do much better than the Tejas at it, simply because it's a prettier looking plane.

The simple point is: Rafale isn't as good as two Tejas. We can make 2-4 Tejas for the price of one Rafale. It's really that simple. If LCA has lower STR/ITR than Rafale today, it also has both the BVR capability and lower radar cross section to compensate.

Quantity has its own quality. WW2 was not won by the side with the few advanced Panzers. It was won with by those with more numerous T-34s and Shermans. The Chinese have numbers. Having a few Rafale's isn't going to stop them - we need numbers too. European planes are simply too expensive, and are not sufficient value. Europe does not have the political or economic ability to supply us continuously for 2-3 months in the midst of war with China.

Eurocanards do an excellent job at what they were made for - look nice, cost a lot so that many Europeans can be employed to make them and feed the local gravy train, and helps the Europeans piggyback behind the US for a few days in any new war.
 
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RE: India Caps Rafale Acquisition At 36 Aircraft

Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:08 am

Quoting Pihero (Reply 27):
it's just offensive, insulting verbal diaorrhea, and totally uncalled for.

And you, mon ami, are retaliating twice as strongly!!!

You may have a fair point but the stridency and defensiveness kind of hides that. We have our flaws for sure, but you guys aren't saints or saviours either, so let's not either of us cross a certain fine line.
 
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RE: India Caps Rafale Acquisition At 36 Aircraft

Tue Jun 09, 2015 2:28 pm

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 29):
In fact, IAF does not stress the MKIs at airshows

All moot given that:

(a) India's not trying to pitch the MKI for sale anywhere
(b) Tejas displays are flown by ADA test pilots, not regular IAF pilots
(c) Tejas displays are planned and executed by ADA, not IAF.

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 29):
The simple point is: Rafale isn't as good as two Tejas. We can make 2-4 Tejas for the price of one Rafale

Yes, and yes.

However, the issue is not just cost. The issue, as you rightly point out, is numbers. We need to induct about 400 new fighters — LCA or other — in the next decade or so to hit the authorised 45-squadron force strength. By 2025, we are set to lose all 6 Bison sqns, the sole MiG-21bis unit, the 3 remaining MiG-21M units (just typing this list of antiquated old aircraft makes me despair), and the 5 remaining MiG-27M/UPG units, for a total of 15 units, or ca. 300 fighters. Going by role, that's a fat chunk of our strike/CAS capability and interception capability lost. The Tejas can't carry enough hurt to be a solid ground pounder, and it's aerodynamics/power make it sub-optimal in the interception role. Yikes!

Even at the hilariously optimistic 16-aircraft per year production rate that HAL was talking about at Aero India 2015, it will take us a quarter of a century to produce the numbers we need. 25 years from now, not only will the battlespace look very different, we will have lost the 12 'legacy' squadrons as well - Jags, Mirages and MiG-29s. Hell, we still don't know the actual (versus theoretical) fatigue life of the LCA, so hell, the earliest LCAs might not last as long as 25 years.

I'm not saying the LCA was a mistake, and I'm not arguing against the necessity to have indigenous air power. I only ask - at what cost? What are the alternate plans, if any? Has anybody taken the long view on the various production/acquisition programmes underway?

Cheers
Angad
 
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RE: India Caps Rafale Acquisition At 36 Aircraft

Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:21 pm

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 25):

And your claim is that the Rafale is the panacea for this ?

No, and it never has been. My preference for India has always been the SH. Common engine with Tegas, best radar of all the MMRCA aircraft, decent range, very good WVR and BVR misile combination, fully combat proven multi-role, cheaper than the Eurocanards and built on a production line that demonstrated an ability to build more than 12 a year. India could do with 80-100 which would bridge the capability gap that is emerging.

Frankly though, I don't own shares in any of the companies involved so I don't care. I find India an interesting Air Force and therefore enjoy the discussion.

Quoting angad84 (Reply 31):
However, the issue is not just cost. The issue, as you rightly point out, is numbers.

Actually Barfbag was rather condescending of the view that squadron numbers falling was an issue. Reality is as you say, India cannot provide the LCA numbers required to keep squadron numbers static, let alone increase. To do so, an outside of India fighter jet is required.

Quoting angad84 (Reply 31):
I'm not saying the LCA was a mistake, and I'm not arguing against the necessity to have indigenous air power. I only ask - at what cost?

I don't think anyone has, LCA is necessary and will be built in numbers, but not enough soon enough to do what is required.
 
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RE: India Caps Rafale Acquisition At 36 Aircraft

Wed Jun 10, 2015 6:28 am

Quoting Ozair (Reply 32):
No, and it never has been. My preference for India has always been the SH.

One does not buy planes from America. One buys their foreign policy, or one does not. India is not a US ally and acts independently, and therefore will not induct American fighter aircraft in numbers, only transport and support items. The SH lost out on the deal not because of its capabilities, but because it is American. It's an open secret. Heck, it's not even a secret. We don't like getting into a war and some Pentagon suit calling us to say 'wait, you can't use the plane this way. Article X Clause Y of our agreement says you can't'.

Quoting Ozair (Reply 32):
Barfbag was rather condescending of the view that squadron numbers falling was an issue. Reality is as you say, India cannot provide the LCA numbers required to keep squadron numbers static, let alone increase. To do so, an outside of India fighter jet is required.

No, I'm condescending of the view that an outside fighter is going to help us in any way. There's absolutely no way either Europe or the US can or will support us in a sustained war with China. That's an invariable. It will never change for the next several decades. The geopoltiical dynamics are all about China getting more powerful, at the cost of the US and west in general. The very notion of little Sweden or even France continuously supplying us at wartime in the face of overt Chinese anger is ridiculous.

On the other hand, manufacturing is something we absolutely have control over. It's clearly broken now, but it can be fixed. Geopolitical dynamics cannot . Therefore I'll always be partial to the LCA simply because it's a system whose logistics we have control over at wartime. It's something we have control over fixing. A foreign supplier's lack of will is something we don't have control over. Your ability to supply in peacetime is not a barometer of anything. We are not ordering cruise ships here.

Quoting angad84 (Reply 31):
All moot given that:
(a) India's not trying to pitch the MKI for sale anywhere
(b) Tejas displays are flown by ADA test pilots, not regular IAF pilots
(c) Tejas displays are planned and executed by ADA, not IAF.

That's not 'moot' . That's exactly the point I was making - that the Rafale does fancy shit at airshows because they're selling it, and the IAF/HAL doesn't do any fancy shit because they're not selling anything to anyone else. Therefore, what IAF does or does not do with the planes in airshows is of absolutely no consequence to the plane's capabilities.

Quoting angad84 (Reply 31):
I'm not saying the LCA was a mistake, and I'm not arguing against the necessity to have indigenous air power. I only ask - at what cost? What are the alternate plans, if any? Has anybody taken the long view on the various production/acquisition programmes underway?

The IAF's solution is to import wholesale, since that's what the bloody civilians should do   But if Modi's recent ruthlessness is any indicator, I expected to see at least one IAF/MoD and HAL big shot get, ah, 'Vishnu Bhagwat'ed.. It's richly deserved.
 
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RE: India Caps Rafale Acquisition At 36 Aircraft

Wed Jun 10, 2015 8:39 am

Quoting Ozair (Reply 32):
My preference for India has always been the SH

The range was a huge issue. And wasn't the radar (APG-79) problematic, at least in the late-2000s? I remember reading Indian press reports on the various MMRCA contenders that flagged the issue. Long time ago though, so it could have been the Blk 60 Viper radar, which was also somewhat immature at the time?

As for engine commonality - Gripen?

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 33):
One does not buy planes from America. One buys their foreign policy

Fair. Like it or not, that's mostly why the Eurocanards got selected (minus the Gripen with its F404/414). Anyone who buys the party line that the evaluations were "fair" and "transparent" is a moron. The inconsistencies and contradictions are open for the world to see, regardless of what the IAF and MoD would have you believe.

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 33):
There's absolutely no way either Europe or the US can or will support us in a sustained war with China

Ok. Let's say we agree on the "sustained war" support part. I think it's a little more grey than you're making out, but let's ignore that for now.

That doesn't change the fact that for the first week or so of the war, we will need to drop a mighty hammer on whoever we're up against - Pak or China. And for now, over the next decade or so, we don't have a hammer to bring to this fight. We have a spanner. And that might work against Pak (although I don't like the look of those MLU F-16s), but it is an approach that simply will not cut it with China. We cannot be the little guy chipping away at the PLAAF (and PLANAF, which is often ignored by analysts). We need that "Day-1" hitting power, and it simply cannot be provided by the Tejas, even if all its problems magically disappeared overnight.

Long story short, we need numbers and we need capable fighters. The Tejas provides neither in the short/medium term.

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 33):
Therefore I'll always be partial to the LCA simply because it's a system whose logistics we have control over at wartime

Nobody is arguing this point. It's not an either-or situation.

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 33):
the IAF/HAL doesn't do any fancy shit because they're not selling anything to anyone else

First off, you only mentioned the IAF and the MKI initially.

Second, the fact that the Tejas is crap and nobody wants to buy it doesn't change the fact that HAL is supposed to look for export orders for all its products. Your assessment that the Tejas show display is boring because it's not a sales pitch is incorrect. It's boring because of the limitations of the aircraft. The fact that this doesn't impact sales, because there aren't any, is incidental.

The MKI display is still impressive by comparison, even if the focus is on low-G post-stall trickery. I was told this is intentional because the IAF doesn't want to over-stress the airframes for the heck of it. Okay, so the IAF MKI display doesn't hold a candle to the Rafale or Viper demos, but these are regular fighter pilots, not display pilots nominated to show off the jet over the course of a year's worth of air shows.

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 33):
The IAF's solution is to import wholesale

Why not both? The logic behind the MMRCA was sound, even if the process was anything but.

6 gap-filler squadrons to hold things together as the legacies are phased out and the Tejas comes into service. Then, with a production line in-country, you can take a call later on whether you need to build more high-end MMRCAs later on, depending on how the Tejas is coming along. Of course they f***ed it up, but that doesn't mean the baby should go out with the bathwater.

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 33):
I expected to see at least one IAF/MoD and HAL big shot get, ah, 'Vishnu Bhagwat'ed.. It's richly deserved.

Amen. It's already done at the DRDO, it needs to happen with ADA and HAL now, and preferably the IAF, although I think the government will think long and hard before getting involved in military matters. Political suicide is not high on this administration's agenda.

Cheers
Angad
 
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RE: India Caps Rafale Acquisition At 36 Aircraft

Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:51 am

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 33):
One does not buy planes from America. One buys their foreign policy, or one does not. India is not a US ally and acts independently, and therefore will not induct American fighter aircraft in numbers, only transport and support items.

You are being naive if you think that transport or maritime Patrol aircraft are easier to maintain in wartime over fighter aircraft. India could quite easily stock enough spares to make it past the four to five week any confrontation would last for all American/Western airframes.

Israeli experience shows that you run out of weapons long before you run out of airframe spares (unless you are fighting Israel...). Weapons are also easier to store long term and a lot easier to bulk buy.
Quoting BarfBag (Reply 33):
No, I'm condescending of the view that an outside fighter is going to help us in any way.

It is a pretty easy equation to understand. You talk of a conflict with China which we could both agree would rely heavily on air power. Right now, and for the next 10 and probably more like 15 years, you won't have the fighter numbers required by IAF planners to effectively prosecute a conflict against China and win.

Reality then is you either purchase something from outside India to increase the fighter numbers, or pray real hard that China doesn't come knocking. China is modernizing and doing so fast, within 10 years they will have three to four times the number of modern fighter aircraft that India has.

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 33):
That's an invariable. It will never change for the next several decades.

Disagree, so much has changed in the last 5 years let alone the next twenty. The US and India have very similar ideals and a common threat in China is going a long way to aligning both together.

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 33):
Therefore I'll always be partial to the LCA simply because it's a system whose logistics we have control over at wartime. It's something we have control over fixing. A foreign supplier's lack of will is something we don't have control over.

Last I looked LCA has a GE414 engine. While India may produce that domestically at some point I have doubts that they have control over the whole process making India reliant on the devil itself, a US company...

Quoting angad84 (Reply 34):

The range was a huge issue. And wasn't the radar (APG-79) problematic, at least in the late-2000s?

I would say in an apples to apples comparison the range would be less than the Eurocanards but not by a significant margin and good enough for an aircraft almost half the price. The SH was flying the only in production AESA of all the contenders and a production run greater than both the Eurocanards, in fact had India chosen the SH it would have had a production run greater than both Eurocanards combined.

Quoting angad84 (Reply 34):
Long story short, we need numbers and we need capable fighters. The Tejas provides neither in the short/medium term.

Sound logic.
 
Pihero
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RE: India Caps Rafale Acquisition At 36 Aircraft

Wed Jun 10, 2015 11:28 am

quote=BarfBag,reply=29]You're completely misunderstanding our purchase goal here. We are not buying aircraft to impress the Chinese at airshows, though I'm certain the Rafale will do much better than the Tejas at it, simply because it's a prettier looking plane. [/quote]
That nicely sums up your agenda.
... and contrarily to you, I'mp not sure the Afghan rebels, the Jihadists in Mali or the late col. Khaddafi considered the Rafale a pretty airplane.
If you go that way, the Tejas would qualify for the cutest thing flying... and just that.

Quoting india1 (Reply 30):
let's not either of us cross a certain fine line

I don't remember you being so reasonable since your fellow countryman started his insults, do I?

Quoting angad84 (Reply 31):
Quoting BarfBag (Reply 29):
The simple point is: Rafale isn't as good as two Tejas. We can make 2-4 Tejas for the price of one Rafale.
Yes with less than a third of its payload and less than a fourth of its range... and let's not talk about capability... it could be embarrassing.

Stranger and curiouser maths...  

Yes, and yes.

By what metering stick, may I ask ? See above .

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 33):
We don't like getting into a war and some Pentagon suit calling us to say 'wait, you can't use the plane this way. Article X Clause Y of our agreement says you can't'.

AFAIK the lca is equipped with a US engine, bought and not built in india, hence subject to any embargo the US would deem in their interests.
In the mean time, China has spent - still spending - more than 201 billion $ in order to have their own engine industry.
In the mean time, China - alone in the world - is developping TWO stealthy 5th gen airplanes which could enter service at the time the tejas ( mk1) will be operational.
Your argument is ludicrous.

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 33):
The very notion of little Sweden or even France continuously supplying us at wartime in the face of overt Chinese anger is ridiculous.

Add to your list of contempt the even tinier Israel, without which you wouldn't have any access to modern electronics / avionics for your air force.

Contrarily to you both - and others - I quite admire your desire and your policy of having a national warplanes industry.
The problem is simple : you'd need - I'm here repeatring myself - some 50 reliable quality main contractors, from engine makers to airframers, avionics of all sorts, good aerodynamic tunnels and testing facilities plus some 500 subcontractors ablme to provide quality components like electrics, rivets and nuts and bolts, chips...
That kind of structure will not be built in one day, one year or even one decade.
Example : the engine called kaveri... gone down the drains... youi'll have to design one from scratch... in how many years ?

Let's face it, any conflict with China, now and for the foreseeable future could be very painful and while you're congratulating yourself on achieving a tejas OPS readiness in thirty seven years while accepting a dispatch rate of less than 50% on the rest of the fleet, the Chinese are making huge strides in their Air Force equipment.
Would any import airplane (s) solve the situation ?
History doesn't show so : you'd be, once again, procrastinating and accusing others of unfair practices while time passes you by.

Finally : Wasn't the T-50 supposed to be a joint venture between Sukhoi and HAL ? Now ity looks very much like India will be buying it, airframe,engines and avionics all from Russia.
Looks to me like another lost opportunity, exactly like the rejection of the SAAB / HAL project.

So... You have every right to be proud of your country, to try and promote a national industry that would guarantee your
national security but you'd need first to make a lot of progress in assessing realities.
Right now, your country reminds me of a judo yellow belt challenging a third dan master.
It would be comical ... in a tragic way.

Regards.
Contrail designer
 
angad84
Posts: 2052
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:04 pm

RE: India Caps Rafale Acquisition At 36 Aircraft

Wed Jun 10, 2015 7:57 pm

Quoting Ozair (Reply 35):
You are being naive if you think that transport or maritime Patrol aircraft are easier to maintain in wartime over fighter aircraft

You're underestimating the staggering ability of the Indian Air Force to cripple itself. I have spares procurement stories that would make your skin crawl.

Quoting Ozair (Reply 35):
It is a pretty easy equation to understand. You talk of a conflict with China which we could both agree would rely heavily on air power. Right now, and for the next 10 and probably more like 15 years, you won't have the fighter numbers required by IAF planners to effectively prosecute a conflict against China and win.

Reality then is you either purchase something from outside India to increase the fighter numbers, or pray real hard that China doesn't come knocking. China is modernizing and doing so fast, within 10 years they will have three to four times the number of modern fighter aircraft that India has.

ding ding ding! We have a winner!

Quoting Ozair (Reply 35):
Disagree, so much has changed in the last 5 years let alone the next twenty. The US and India have very similar ideals and a common threat in China is going a long way to aligning both together.

There's the grey area I was avoiding earlier. Still, I will side with BarfBag on this one — I'm not signing any cheques based on hopes and dreams for US foreign policy. They've been unreliable before and it will take a lot of doing to demonstrate that they're capable of being Tier-1 partners.

Step one, for example, would be to give Pakistan the cold shoulder. Instead, we have MLU kits heading their way. Not encouraging.

Quoting Ozair (Reply 35):
Last I looked LCA has a GE414 engine

Nope, F404. F414 is the powerplant for the planned LCA Mk.II, which may or may not see the light of day.

Quoting Ozair (Reply 35):
making India reliant on the devil itself, a US company

Indeed. A most delightful conundrum, is it not?

Quoting Ozair (Reply 35):
and good enough for an aircraft almost half the price

If there's anything the past decade has demonstrated, it's that the Indian Air Force wouldn't know good value if it came knocking on the door wearing naught but a frilly tu-tu.

"Hurr durr, bad range" would probably sum up the reaction to the SH.

Quoting Ozair (Reply 35):
The SH was flying the only in production AESA of all the contenders and a production run greater than both the Eurocanards, in fact had India chosen the SH it would have had a production run greater than both Eurocanards combined.

Maturity is great and all that, but I think the overall package offered by the Eurocanards was frankly a bit better. Call me old fashioned, but I am really partial to IRSTs, and the Americans' refusal to put passive sensors on their fighters is a bit baffling. I've spent a lot of time with IAF fighter pilots, and they LOVE the capability that a good IRST brings to the fight. Obviously limited to WVR, but still. The OSF/SPECTRA combination is one of the things that really impressed the IAF, going by the stories I've heard from the MMRCA trials.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 36):
By what metering stick, may I ask ? See above .

He means money. You can build 2 or more Tejas for the price of one Rafale. One Rafale might not bring as much to the table as 2 or more Tejas.

Others, such as Ozair and myself, are more concerned about the deteriorating balance of power in the region, and the ability of the IAF to remain a contender in a reasonable time frame.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 36):
AFAIK the lca is equipped with a US engine, bought and not built in india, hence subject to any embargo the US would deem in their interests.

I believe the F414 will be produced in India. Can't be bothered to dig up a link, but once the LCA Mk.II is finalised, the engine will be made here.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 36):
In the mean time, China has spent - still spending - more than 201 billion $ in order to have their own engine industry.
In the mean time, China - alone in the world - is developping TWO stealthy 5th gen airplanes which could enter service at the time the tejas ( mk1) will be operational.

Things do look bleak, no question.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 36):
The problem is simple : you'd need - I'm here repeatring myself - some 50 reliable quality main contractors, from engine makers to airframers, avionics of all sorts, good aerodynamic tunnels and testing facilities plus some 500 subcontractors ablme to provide quality components like electrics, rivets and nuts and bolts, chips...
That kind of structure will not be built in one day, one year or even one decade.

Yes.

I would argue that some sort of national strategy needs to be enacted that allows two paths to proceed in parallel — rebuild the IAF and develop an indigenous industry. The two cannot be allowed to hinge on one another, because the risks are too great. Unfortunately, this is exactly what has happened. One falling card takes out the entire castle.

Lessons can be taken from Turkey, who are procuring Korean basic trainers in the short term, but continuing parallel development of their own indigenous trainer aircraft. The Turkish trainer will soon supplement, and eventually replace the Korean trainer. The TuAF therefore meets is operational needs and Turkey meets is national goals. Win-win.

Of course, doing something like this would require the fine folks in South Block to extract their heads from their rectums long enough to draw a single breath. It hasn't happened in the 60 years, so I don't think it'll happen in the next 60.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 36):
Finally : Wasn't the T-50 supposed to be a joint venture between Sukhoi and HAL ? Now ity looks very much like India will be buying it, airframe,engines and avionics all from Russia.

Word on the street says the FGFA is probably dead anyway. Either that or it gets totally restructured so that India gets IPR and a share of global sales and production.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 36):
Looks to me like another lost opportunity, exactly like the rejection of the SAAB / HAL project.

Which one are you referring to?

Cheers
Angad
 
BarfBag
Posts: 2574
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2001 7:13 am

RE: India Caps Rafale Acquisition At 36 Aircraft

Thu Jun 11, 2015 3:10 am

Quoting angad84 (Reply 34):
we need numbers and we need capable fighters. The Tejas provides neither in the short/medium term.

In the short term, yes. In the medium term, no. What's more, Tejas is the only option capable of providing both, with an emphasis on numbers over quality. IAF already has quality at the top end with the MKIs. It needs baseline quality in numbers. No gold plated Eurocanard provides that. In fact, they all provide the opposite - quality in very little numbers.

Quoting angad84 (Reply 34):
the fact that the Tejas is crap and nobody wants to buy it doesn't change the fact that HAL is supposed to look for export orders for all its products.

By that specific metric, the Rafale is worse than crap. One and a half decades of remarkable airshow displays later, the only one operating it is the AdlA. That's the problem with the 'export order' metric.

Quoting angad84 (Reply 34):
Why not both? The logic behind the MMRCA was sound, even if the process was anything but.

There was no logic behind the MMRCA. It was pure political CYA. Rather than get more M2Ks, they decided to be 'transparent'. Predictably, every arms hawker came running trying to upsell their highest kit. The French magically shut down the M2K line and offered the Rafale.

Quoting angad84 (Reply 34):
6 gap-filler squadrons to hold things together

2004 called. They want that logical idea of that time back   This is 2015. If the deal is signed TODAY, we'll still not see a single F3R aircraft for another 3 years. It's not me arguing alone. The political firmament clearly isn't enthusiastic anymore.

Quoting Ozair (Reply 35):
You are being naive if you think that transport or maritime Patrol aircraft are easier to maintain in wartime over fighter aircraft.

Not ease of maintenance, but the expectation that they'll be unusable in war. We still have a far greater number of non-western transport aircraft.

Quoting Ozair (Reply 35):
China is modernizing and doing so fast, within 10 years they will have three to four times the number of modern fighter aircraft that India has.

You don't seem to understand the implication of what you're saying. They're getting better because they're making mistakes and learning from it. They're not getting ready made kit from anyone. The whole reason why they're so dangerous is their willingness to get better the hard way. That's exactly what I advocate we do. Our current problems are within our ability to fix. Others problems are not.

We're never going to be able to keep up with them by depending on someone else's kit. Better we suck it up now and build our capability now, than essentially never catch up because we'd be standing there telling the audience 'hey, one of you guys throw me your sword will you ?' and hope someone does.

The threat posed by the Chinese is as real is the approach they've pursued is an example. It's got them where they are today. 60 years of importing arms has not made India relatively better, nor is the future prognosis any good. When it's between an approach that someone demonstrates does work, and one that we've continuously experienced as not working well, it doesn't benefit us to throw even more good money after bad on some western import.

I'd much rather we fixed our own military industrial complex instead, with that money. I'm thankful the government cut the Rafale deal down from 200 airframes to just 36, a number small enough to later argue that it simply isn't worth it, while they simultaneously work on fixing HAL and the defence PSUs.

Quoting Ozair (Reply 35):
Disagree, so much has changed in the last 5 years let alone the next twenty. The US and India have very similar ideals and a common threat in China is going a long way to aligning both together.

And China is India's biggest trade partner, increasingly the biggest infrastructure investor, we share a 3000km border and we gave them Buddhism, while the US continues to arm the nuisance to our west with the pretense of 'keeping them stable'.

Quoting Ozair (Reply 35):
Last I looked LCA has a GE414 engine.

GEF404s. Same as what the Gripen has. Same as what the Rafale had, before the M88 was ready. Heck, if engines are the problem, the J10 and J20 both have AL31FNs, despite the Dr.Evil-esque amounts China has spent on engine development. After all that money, stats like TET on their comparable turbofan is till about the same performance as the Kaveri, indicating they're still to surmount the materials/fabrication hurdles we are working on. So why the double standards of judgement here ?

Pihero: TL,DR. Not worth my time.
 
Pihero
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RE: India Caps Rafale Acquisition At 36 Aircraft

Thu Jun 11, 2015 8:56 pm

Quoting angad84 (Reply 37):
You can build 2 or more Tejas for the price of one Rafale. One Rafale might not bring as much to the table as 2 or more Tejas.

On the specs sites for both, it looks very much like the Rafale can carry a payload three times the Tejas's at three times the range.
Your maths don't seem to add up.

The picture gets a lot worse for the LCA when you compare its publicised - not proven in any way - capabilities with the real achievements of the Rafale.

One instance I find really incredible is the advertised sustained 9G for the LCA : with its aerodynamic appearance, that wing will stall a lot before that limit : co strakes before, no LEX.
I timed most of its roll rates at around 150°/sec... That's the real way its display flights seem so tame compared to all other fighters -IAF or foreign - during meetings.
On the subject of air displays, 95% of them are for the benefit of the population, during local air meetings or "open airbases gates" events ; There is at least one in the country every weekend of the summer month, along displays by the Patrouille de France. Nothing to do with sales or buyers... Just showing where their tax money goes and eliciting vocations among the kids.

Quoting angad84 (Reply 37):
Quoting Pihero (Reply 36):
Looks to me like another lost opportunity, exactly like the rejection of the SAAB / HAL project.

Which one are you referring to?

SAAB and the Swrdish goverment proposed a joint study of an LCA to the Indian government.
They are now back with another - very similar - proposal.
Contrail designer
 
BarfBag
Posts: 2574
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2001 7:13 am

RE: India Caps Rafale Acquisition At 36 Aircraft

Fri Jun 12, 2015 3:58 am

Dassault chief: At least 3 years to deliver Rafale if ordered
http://www.business-standard.com/art...-sale-to-india-115061200010_1.html

So much for buying Rafales off the shelf. The whole purpose of doing so was to rapidly cover force depletion. And yet Dassault, who were picked as the L1 bidder in 2013, are in no position to deliver even one aircraft within five years past that time. This is not going to go down well with the Defence Minister or the PM.

Once again, this reveals the hypocrisy involved in the matter. If the HAL chief said they cannot deliver an LCA in under 3 years, they'd be ripped to shreds. Of course, the fact that Dassault cannot deliver any quicker will somehow be spun as India's fault, even though they know for more than two years that they're the successful L1 bid. Now they want to both negotiate the price up well above L1 bid, and can't deliver anytime soon.

In three years, the LCA will be even more potent than it is today, bridging the gap with its 4th gen cohorts even more. And what's more, at least we have control over the supply chain, rather than depending on the French who are seemingly in no hurry despite the billions involved. And we're supposed to depend on these guys in wartime ? What'll they say then ? "The planes won't be ready yet. Can you start fighting, say, around 2 years from now ? Merci" ?
 
ThePointblank
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RE: India Caps Rafale Acquisition At 36 Aircraft

Fri Jun 12, 2015 4:46 am

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 40):
In three years, the LCA will be even more potent than it is today, bridging the gap with its 4th gen cohorts even more. And what's more, at least we have control over the supply chain, rather than depending on the French who are seemingly in no hurry despite the billions involved. And we're supposed to depend on these guys in wartime ? What'll they say then ? "The planes won't be ready yet. Can you start fighting, say, around 2 years from now ? Merci" ?

India took so long to make a decision and act upon it that 3 years elapsed from the time an actual decision was announced. Add in another 3 years to make a decision upon closing the bids, and 6 years dithering about deciding on the format for a RFP.

A lot can change within 3 years; 6 years is an eternity. 12 years to make a decision is madness. A reasonable time frame for a major off-the-shelf government capital project is on average 4-7 years, and that's from identification of needs to final delivery and contract close out.

[Edited 2015-06-11 21:50:46]
 
ZeeZoo
Posts: 284
Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2015 9:30 am

RE: India Caps Rafale Acquisition At 36 Aircraft

Fri Jun 12, 2015 7:24 am

Right...first things first, (a) the Mirage and Rafale's specs were derived in French conditions, the Tejas operates in Indian conditions, (b) there are numerous anecdotes by experts, test pilots and fighter pilots who have flown BOTH the Mirage-2000 and Tejas that the latter is just as capable (Mirage in its upgraded form) and is far more pilot friendly, (c) the shitting on the Kaveri programme (which is most certainly not wasted - K9/K10 programmes) and Tejas I've always seen as an insecurity.

"The Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO) decided to wind up the Kaveri engine (GTX-35VS ) programme on November 2014 due to its shortcomings(Decision will be finalized by DAC) . GTRE is now running two separate successor engine programmes, the K9+ programme and the K10 programme.The Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO) decided to wind up the Kaveri engine (GTX-35VS ) programme on November 2014 due to its shortcomings(Decision will be finalized by DAC) . GTRE is now running two separate successor engine programmes, the K9+ programme and the K10 programme."

[Edited 2015-06-12 00:30:24]
 
india1
Posts: 243
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 8:06 am

RE: India Caps Rafale Acquisition At 36 Aircraft

Fri Jun 12, 2015 7:30 am

http://defencenews.in/defence-news-internal.aspx?id=SBTA/fEVMD0=

So what does this mean, if anything, for the Rafale buy?
 
Ozair
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RE: India Caps Rafale Acquisition At 36 Aircraft

Fri Jun 12, 2015 11:24 am

Quoting india1 (Reply 43):
http://defencenews.in/defence-news-internal.aspx?id=SBTA/fEVMD0=

So what does this mean, if anything, for the Rafale buy?

Not much effect on the Rafale buy, if the Rafale buy goes ahead. I think SAAB is offering to assist the Indians in the design and manufacture of the Tejas MkII. All reports are that the Tejas MkI will be procured in low numbers until the definitive MkII is designed and tested.

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 38):
They're getting better because they're making mistakes and learning from it. They're not getting ready made kit from anyone.

Sure, but you're forgetting the assistance they had. The J-10 was derived from the Lavi, the J-11 is a carbon copy of the Su-27, the J-15 appears to be a near copy of the Su-33.

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 38):


[quote=BarfBag,reply=38]GEF404s. Same as what the Gripen has.

You're right, GE404s for the MkI and apparently GE414s for the MkII.

Tejas Mark 2 - Featuring more powerful General Electric F414-GE-INS6 engine with 98Kn thrust and refined aerodynamics. The Mark 2 is being developed to meet the Indian Air Staff requirements.
http://www.tejas.gov.in/history/genesis.html

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 38):
Heck, if engines are the problem, the J10 and J20 both have AL31FNs, despite the Dr.Evil-esque amounts China has spent on engine development. After all that money, stats like TET on their comparable turbofan is till about the same performance as the Kaveri, indicating they're still to surmount the materials/fabrication hurdles we are working on. So why the double standards of judgement here ?

No double standard. I used that as an example of how despite your personal thoughts on the India US alliance clearly the Indian Government sees a US company as trustworthy enough to be the only propulsion option for the LCA. They could have gone for the EJ200

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 40):
So much for buying Rafales off the shelf. The whole purpose of doing so was to rapidly cover force depletion.

I've said similar in the previous thread, the low rate of the Rafale line, as well as Egypt wanting airframes quick was always going to make it hard to deliver on this Indian deal within the PM's expected timeframe.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 39):

The picture gets a lot worse for the LCA when you compare its publicised - not proven in any way - capabilities with the real achievements of the Rafale.

One instance I find really incredible is the advertised sustained 9G for the LCA : with its aerodynamic appearance, that wing will stall a lot before that limit : co strakes before, no LEX.

I've been doing some reading on the Tejas. It is hard to believe most of what is read because there are such differing points of view.

I did come across a review by Air Marshal M Matheswaran who appears to have a pretty impressive career and depth of experience. His article reviews the history of the LCA program as well as some rather not impressive comments including poor sustained and instantaneous turn rates , poor design choice and lack of range. It is titled "Have we lost the plot" and was published by Vayu Aerospace and Defence April 2015 edition. A google search can pull up the article but I can't get it to link.

If others can find it I would appreciate hearing their thoughts.
 
ZeeZoo
Posts: 284
Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2015 9:30 am

RE: India Caps Rafale Acquisition At 36 Aircraft

Fri Jun 12, 2015 1:35 pm

IAF - Imported Air Force.

The vast majority of those against the Tejas have vested interests, they have either been paid off or doing their remaining pals a favour. The Indian Air Force is a joke, full of corruption, the Mirage-2000 upgrade amounted to ~ $55M per plane... 55 bloody million for upgrades for each fighter...they should be shot for treason and the fighter spent, IIRC, it's first 5 years in service with the IAF without the use of its cannon whilst the Tejas is being shat on from a great height with changes to parameters left, right and centre.

Typical of the IAF and IA, one set of rules for homegrown products (Tejas, Kaveri and Arjun) whilst another set of rules for foreign products coupled with money being exchanged behind curtains. Shining example? The Indian Navy, it's the IN as to why the Tejas hasn't been binned either.
 
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zeke
Posts: 14779
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

RE: India Caps Rafale Acquisition At 36 Aircraft

Fri Jun 12, 2015 3:12 pm

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 29):
Impossible. The elevators on both the Vikrant and Vikramaditya are too narrow for the Rafale-M, which doesn't have foldable wings unlike the MiG29K. The elevators are just right for the Tejas and MiG29Ks.

Their next carriers I read were to be different, no ramp, side elevator ?
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Pihero
Posts: 4318
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

RE: India Caps Rafale Acquisition At 36 Aircraft

Fri Jun 12, 2015 3:52 pm

Quoting Ozair (Reply 44):
If others can find it

Try this Have We lost the Plot
Contrail designer
 
Pihero
Posts: 4318
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

RE: India Caps Rafale Acquisition At 36 Aircraft

Tue Jun 16, 2015 11:29 am

Some excerpts of the above lminked article :
"...it is completely clear that one of the reasons as to why the LCA is unlikely to ever fully meet the ASR is owed to the basic choice of the planform design...( which causes...)
- high supersonic drag
- poor intake efficiency
- performance shortfalls : in turn rates / acceleration / top speed...

...because of its deficiencies in performance, the LCA cannot become the IAF frontline fighter at the low end, neither can it fill the slot of the MMRCA or its equivalent role...

...Of late, there have been frequent articles written by some self-proclaimed champions of indigenisation and "Tejas Patriots".
None of them know much about air combat or air strategy and military flying, but continue to comment on how the IAF must learn to fly and fight any war with the Tejas as its backbone and not pursdue hopeless ideas like the MMRCA or vthe FGFA !
They would do well to study the Tejas genesis.... hurdles... and its performances..."


'nuff said, from one of India's own !

...And in the mean time, the JF-17 is the talk of the airshow here in Paris with a very spirited flight display ( apparently, they've found their first customer, too ).... and they'll have 10 squadrons of them in 2018 !
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india1
Posts: 243
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RE: India Caps Rafale Acquisition At 36 Aircraft

Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:52 pm

Done deal dotted-line wise by late summer, as per this -
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/i...hs-France/articleshow/47694452.cms

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