Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
Stitch wrote:Would the RCAF need something as large as the A330? The KC-46A would be similar in size to the A310 (so it should work with current basing facilities) and appears to offer significantly more fuel capacity (if I am reading the Wikipedia specs correctly) as well as better range.
WIederling wrote:ThePointblank wrote:I don't think an CC150 Polaris replacement is in order for years; for one, all of them are late 1980's build aircraft with comparable few flight hours and cycles on them compared to ones used by airlines. As long as Airbus can provide support to the A310 fleet, and there are spare parts readily available, they will continue to fly.
Well, bunumuring asked:
Which way do you think Canada will eventually go? New or converted A330s? New Pegasus'? Converted 767s (ex-AC even)? Hand-me-downs from the US? That will be an interesting one to watch in the future!
Following your observation they'll go with MRTT ( when that comes up in the ?far? future ) ?
ThePointblank wrote:Going to tackle these two together as they are related questions.
I don't think size is going to matter; the flight line at CFB Trenton is big enough to handle larger aircraft regardless as it received a $860 million upgrade a few years ago to handle the C-17's and C-130J's. There is a new maintenance hangar, new warehouse, all of the taxiways and aprons were replaced and enlarged, a new ramp to the north west was built, the refueling system was changed from fuel trucks to a brand new underground hydrant system, plus a whole host of other upgrades.
Whatever the aircraft will be, I suspect it will depend on what the next fighter for the RCAF will be. As it currently leans, the F-35 is going to continue to be the future fighter, so it will most likely have a boom. I believe the aircraft will very likely be bought used and then converted.
Stitch wrote:Ah, well a conversion would almost certainly favor the A330MRTT, though IAI has done 767-300ER conversions for Columbia and Brazil with good results so perhaps that might be an option, as well.
WIederling wrote:Stitch wrote:Ah, well a conversion would almost certainly favor the A330MRTT, though IAI has done 767-300ER conversions for Columbia and Brazil with good results so perhaps that might be an option, as well.
The Airbus MRTT product is more than a P2T conversion.
Dutchy wrote:WIederling wrote:Stitch wrote:Ah, well a conversion would almost certainly favor the A330MRTT, though IAI has done 767-300ER conversions for Columbia and Brazil with good results so perhaps that might be an option, as well.
The Airbus MRTT product is more than a P2T conversion.
what is the difference?
ThePointblank wrote:Whatever the aircraft will be, I suspect it will depend on what the next fighter for the RCAF will be. As it currently leans, the F-35 is going to continue to be the future fighter, so it will most likely have a boom. I believe the aircraft will very likely be bought used and then converted.
WIederling wrote:Dutchy wrote:WIederling wrote:
The Airbus MRTT product is more than a P2T conversion.
what is the difference?
The MRT aspect
( look into what the German A310MRT were designed to do.)
The 767 conversions are just Tt, 'T'anker ( and a bit of 't'ransport added in )
Stitch wrote:WIederling wrote:Dutchy wrote:
what is the difference?
The MRT aspect
( look into what the German A310MRT were designed to do.)
The 767 conversions are just Tt, 'T'anker ( and a bit of 't'ransport added in )
The IAI 767-300ER's have main deck cargo doors and refueling booms (something the A310MRTT does not offer) so one could argue they are just as "Multi-Role" as the Airbus products.
WIederling wrote:Stitch wrote:WIederling wrote:
The MRT aspect
( look into what the German A310MRT were designed to do.)
The 767 conversions are just Tt, 'T'anker ( and a bit of 't'ransport added in )
The IAI 767-300ER's have main deck cargo doors and refueling booms (something the A310MRTT does not offer) so one could argue they are just as "Multi-Role" as the Airbus products.
Yeah, sure. And that is not what the MRT was about.
That is about a versatile platform for freight, pax, med evac and med transport. IMU the same modules are available for the A330.
( you need the freight door though. another STC )
INFINITI329 wrote:ThePointblank wrote:Whatever the aircraft will be, I suspect it will depend on what the next fighter for the RCAF will be. As it currently leans, the F-35 is going to continue to be the future fighter, so it will most likely have a boom. I believe the aircraft will very likely be bought used and then converted.
Unless of course RCAF goes with the -C (naval variant) to maintain the hose and drogue system. But the C-17 needs a boom so that might be a moot point.
NATO has taken another important step forward to improve its ability to refuel aircraft in mid-air, with three Allies looking to join a European programme to acquire new refuelling aircraft. Today (16 February 2017), Defence Ministers from Belgium, Germany, and Norway signed a Declaration of Intent to join a European multinational fleet of Airbus tankers, created by the Netherlands and Luxembourg. The two countries launched this initiative in July 2016 and a first order was made for two Airbus A330 Multi Role Tanker Transport aircraft, which are due to be delivered in 2020.
...
Defence Ministers from Belgium, Germany, and Norway signed a Declaration of Intent to join a European multinational fleet of Airbus tankers, created by the Netherlands and Luxembourg.
The new agreement allows other Allies to join the programme with the provision to enlarge the fleet to up to eight aircraft.
WIederling wrote:Stitch wrote:Ah, well a conversion would almost certainly favor the A330MRTT, though IAI has done 767-300ER conversions for Columbia and Brazil with good results so perhaps that might be an option, as well.
The Airbus MRTT product is more than a P2T conversion.
KarelXWB wrote:NATO has taken another important step forward to improve its ability to refuel aircraft in mid-air, with three Allies looking to join a European programme to acquire new refuelling aircraft. Today (16 February 2017), Defence Ministers from Belgium, Germany, and Norway signed a Declaration of Intent to join a European multinational fleet of Airbus tankers, created by the Netherlands and Luxembourg. The two countries launched this initiative in July 2016 and a first order was made for two Airbus A330 Multi Role Tanker Transport aircraft, which are due to be delivered in 2020.
...
Defence Ministers from Belgium, Germany, and Norway signed a Declaration of Intent to join a European multinational fleet of Airbus tankers, created by the Netherlands and Luxembourg.
The new agreement allows other Allies to join the programme with the provision to enlarge the fleet to up to eight aircraft.
http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_141382.htm
JetBuddy wrote:KarelXWB wrote:NATO has taken another important step forward to improve its ability to refuel aircraft in mid-air, with three Allies looking to join a European programme to acquire new refuelling aircraft. Today (16 February 2017), Defence Ministers from Belgium, Germany, and Norway signed a Declaration of Intent to join a European multinational fleet of Airbus tankers, created by the Netherlands and Luxembourg. The two countries launched this initiative in July 2016 and a first order was made for two Airbus A330 Multi Role Tanker Transport aircraft, which are due to be delivered in 2020.
...
Defence Ministers from Belgium, Germany, and Norway signed a Declaration of Intent to join a European multinational fleet of Airbus tankers, created by the Netherlands and Luxembourg.
The new agreement allows other Allies to join the programme with the provision to enlarge the fleet to up to eight aircraft.
http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_141382.htm
Great news. The press release from the Norwegian Department of Defence confirms that this triggers the option for six more aircraft for a total of eight.
https://www.regjeringen.no/no/aktuelt/n ... id2539315/
(In Norwegian)
Stitch wrote:And the IAI 767s have performed all those roles for the Columbian and Brazilian Air Forces, too. In fact, IAI calls them MRTTs because they have that same inherent role flexibility. *shrug*
South Korea[edit]
On 30 June 2015, South Korea selected the A330 MRTT aerial refueling aircraft for procurement. South Korea is to order four aircraft with deliveries planned to be completed in 2019.[53]
Dutchy wrote:I missed the fact South Korea had ordered the A330 in 2015. Apparently four are ordered.
According to wiki:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A3 ... outh_KoreaSouth Korea[edit]
On 30 June 2015, South Korea selected the A330 MRTT aerial refueling aircraft for procurement. South Korea is to order four aircraft with deliveries planned to be completed in 2019.[53]
AngMoh wrote:Dutchy wrote:I missed the fact South Korea had ordered the A330 in 2015. Apparently four are ordered.
According to wiki:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A3 ... outh_KoreaSouth Korea[edit]
On 30 June 2015, South Korea selected the A330 MRTT aerial refueling aircraft for procurement. South Korea is to order four aircraft with deliveries planned to be completed in 2019.[53]
According to planespotters, the first one is c/n 1787 which should appear over the next 3 months. The last delivered a330 is c/n 1779.
https://www.planespotters.net/airline/S ... -Air-Force
https://www.planespotters.net/productio ... /A330?p=28
Not sure how reliable this is.
KarelXWB wrote:MSN 1830 will be the first MRTT for the joint ops venture by The Netherlands, Norway and Poland.
bunumuring wrote:KarelXWB wrote:MSN 1830 will be the first MRTT for the joint ops venture by The Netherlands, Norway and Poland.
Hey KarelXWB,
I thought that Luxembourg was also involved in this, though I know they don't have any planes needing to be refuelled so I guess that they are interested in the cargo/personnel carrying capabilities of the MRTT...
Please correct me if I am wrong.
Cheers,
Bunumuring.
bunumuring wrote:KarelXWB wrote:MSN 1830 will be the first MRTT for the joint ops venture by The Netherlands, Norway and Poland.
Hey KarelXWB,
I thought that Luxembourg was also involved in this, though I know they don't have any planes needing to be refuelled so I guess that they are interested in the cargo/personnel carrying capabilities of the MRTT...
Please correct me if I am wrong.
Cheers,
Bunumuring.
LightningZ71 wrote:Does anyone know if there wI'll be an A330-800MRTT? Or, would that get skipped for an A350 based solution?
KarelXWB wrote:A render of of the French Air Force MRTT livery:
http://www.defens-aero.com/2017/04/phot ... ivree.html
Slug71 wrote:LightningZ71 wrote:Does anyone know if there wI'll be an A330-800MRTT? Or, would that get skipped for an A350 based solution?
There is supposed to be but with only 6 orders for the A300-800NEO, who knows.
Channex757 wrote:Slug71 wrote:LightningZ71 wrote:Does anyone know if there wI'll be an A330-800MRTT? Or, would that get skipped for an A350 based solution?
There is supposed to be but with only 6 orders for the A300-800NEO, who knows.
There are also structural issues.
The A338NEO has an updated wing that removes the additional structures that support the A340 outside engine in the design, and is used for the tanker version's hose pods. This structure is there as the wing was designed for both the A330 and A340. That means some work and testing would be needed to replace the capability on the NEO wing.
Slug71 wrote:The refueling pod weighs significantly less than an engine though. Probably around a 10th of the weight. Dry of course.
Shouldnt need too much reinforcement.
zeke wrote:What you are saying is not correct. All of the tanker conversions have modifications made inside the wing. The structure the pods attach to is not the same as the pylon attaches to on the A340.
The outer engine location on the A340 provides for the wing to have the aeroelastic properties to install the additional mass outward on the wing. It also provided provisions to reticulate fuel/hydraulics/electrical systems to that location to the fuselage.
The A330 tanker conversion is a systems integration process, it's getting the fuel, hydraulics, and elerical/communications through the aircraft the refuelling points that takes the time. The structural modifications are minor in comparison.
Channex757 wrote:My point is that the A330NEO will have a lot of the common structure deleted. That's a fact, Airbus have already said as much. They now see it as unnecessary weight so the internal structure of the wing will be modified and any new pod attachment in the future will have to take account of this "weakening".
Slug71 wrote:The fuel, hydraulic, and electrical lines go through the holes in the wing ribs.
KarelXWB wrote:Germany is in the market for some A330 MRTT aircraft:
https://twitter.com/HelenHaxell/status/ ... 5068698624
moo wrote:KarelXWB wrote:Germany is in the market for some A330 MRTT aircraft:
https://twitter.com/HelenHaxell/status/ ... 5068698624
Given that Germany seems to want to find significant issues with anything it buys, does Airbus want to sell MRTTs to Germany...?
moo wrote:Given that Germany seems to want to find significant issues with anything it buys, does Airbus want to sell MRTTs to Germany...?
Stitch wrote:moo wrote:Given that Germany seems to want to find significant issues with anything it buys, does Airbus want to sell MRTTs to Germany...?
Even if the A330MRTT was not a great choice, it's not like they have another option with most of the EU and the UK going that direction already. They're going to want to have the interoperability with those fleets, I imagine.
moo wrote:Thats a plus for Germany, but its not a plus for Airbus, and my point is that Airbus may not want to get into bed with Germany on something else that they can complain about...