Quoting bunumuring (Reply 49): Which way do you think Canada will eventually go? New or converted A330s? New Pegasus'? Converted 767s (ex-AC even)? Hand-me-downs from the US? That will be an interesting one to watch in the future!

I think they'll end up with something similar to the CC-150...used frames converted. My money's on the MRTT. Would imagine it would be lower cost to pick up some 330-200's for conversion, unless Boeing can make them a smokin' deal on some KC-46s.

AC's 767s are a mix and mash to be certain. However, I believe the newer frames are staying around between mainline and Rouge for at least the foreseeable future, and there is no circumstance I can see that would involve converting a 20 year old 763.

However, between the F-35 debacle, the need to invest in the Navy, and other things, I think replacing the CC-150's is farther down on the list. They were fairly new birds when converted, and don't see massive utilization, so they'll probably be flying for fair bit longer.

Quoting bunumuring (Reply 49): ...perhaps Brazil eventually, Chile maybe (more likely to be converted ex-civilian)...

Brazil is taking three converted 767-300ERs (the KC-X2 via IAI). With Columbia doing the same (767 MMT), I imagine Chile will follow (most cost-effective option).

Quoting bunumuring (Reply 49): Which way do you think Canada will eventually go?

Quoting diverted (Reply 50): I think they'll end up with something similar to the CC-150...used frames converted. My money's on the MRTT. Would imagine it would be lower cost to pick up some 330-200's for conversion, unless Boeing can make them a smokin' deal on some KC-46s. AC's 767s are a mix and mash to be certain. However, I believe the newer frames are staying around between mainline and Rouge for at least the foreseeable future, and there is no circumstance I can see that would involve converting a 20 year old 763.

Well they would not have to use ex-Air Canada stock if they decided to follow the 767 MMTT route and a 767 MMTT would be significantly cheaper than an A330 MRTT.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 51): Well they would not have to use ex-Air Canada stock if they decided to follow the 767 MMTT route and a 767 MMTT would be significantly cheaper than an A330 MRTT.

I agree entirely; was just responding to an earlier post regarding the feasibility of AC frames.

Keep in mind the CC-150's only gained refueling capablities within the last decade if I'm not mistaken. They can't be very high time frames, plus I'd assume they're more economical than a KC135 given similar fuel loads.

Though, with the QF frames going to the RAAF MRTT route, perhaps we could see more used frames get snapped up for the MRTT conversion for countries like Canada.

Quoting diverted (Reply 52): Keep in mind the CC-150's only gained refueling capablities within the last decade if I'm not mistaken. They can't be very high time frames, plus I'd assume they're more economical than a KC135 given similar fuel loads.

Yup, and it was by total chance; the Germans were converting a number of their A310 transports into tankers, and Canada decided to join in and add 2 air frames to the conversion. There were a number of issues with wing flutter during the testing of the conversions, and as such, the 2 aircraft were sidelined at CFB Trenton until those issues could be fixed for a better part of a year.

I would be more worried about when support will end for the Airbus A310; right now, there is enough critical mass in terms of commercial and government operators of the Airbus A310 to keep service costs fairly reasonable. Once civil operators start disposing of the Airbus A310 in large numbers, along with government operators, spare parts could become harder and more expensive to find.

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 53): I would be more worried about when support will end for the Airbus A310; right now, there is enough critical mass in terms of commercial and government operators of the Airbus A310 to keep service costs fairly reasonable. Once civil operators start disposing of the Airbus A310 in large numbers, along with government operators, spare parts could become harder and more expensive to find.

Perhaps Mr. Trudeau and his new government can swing a smoking deal from TS for some frames for spares?  

Quoting bunumuring (Reply 49): after launching the civil-to-military conversion program based on two ex-Qantas A330-200s.

AFAIK, the RAAF was a one-off case, there is no "official" conversion program launched by Airbus. However, they may have initiated a trend with this, and once enough newer A330's (238t version or more) come on the used market, conversion could be the next big thing. I don't see a conversion case for older, low MTOW A330's. Note that Airbus has not officially launched an A330MRTT NEO yet, and CEO production will eventually cease. An MRTT NEO will come eventually IMO, but in the meantime this could be a good transitory solution.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 55): Quoting bunumuring (Reply 49): after launching the civil-to-military conversion program based on two ex-Qantas A330-200s. AFAIK, the RAAF was a one-off case, there is no "official" conversion program launched by Airbus. However, they may have initiated a trend with this, and once enough newer A330's (238t version or more) come on the used market, conversion could be the next big thing. I don't see a conversion case for older, low MTOW A330's. Note that Airbus has not officially launched an A330MRTT NEO yet, and CEO production will eventually cease. An MRTT NEO will come eventually IMO, but in the meantime this could be a good transitory solution.

The A310MRTT were all conversions. If the customer is not interested in the possibility of cargo on the main deck, the conversion of a 330-200 to MRTT should be straight forward.

MSN 898 has been transferred to LEGT for conversion.

Quote: Airbus A330 -203 898 VH-EBI Qantas ferried 23nov15 QPG-LEGT, all white, for MRTT-conversion, for RAAF ex F-WWKM

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 56): The A310MRTT were all conversions. If the customer is not interested in the possibility of cargo on the main deck, the conversion of a 330-200 to MRTT should be straight forward.

Same seems to be valid for the A330 too.
MRTT are not dedicated builds but come off the FAL line as ( my guess ) complete frames
that just lack cabin outfit.
Nothing changed in relation to PAX frames and able to fly away ( to Recife )

The certified changes are a "kit" applicable to any A330 frame.

Oops: maybe the plumbing for the wing fueling stations is integrated while the wings are outfittet.
Makes it easier but probably not required.

G'day

This FI article implies that Germany is also in the market for 3 MRTT's   


http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...ultinational-tanker-effort-419627/

“Germany is currently an observer [of MFF] as of April this year, and we are planning to sign the MoU [memorandum of understanding] and contract in the second quarter of next year, with the option to procure three aircraft.”


Cheers

Peter

Quoting r2rho (Thread starter): - 12x France

Twitter media are reporting that France just firmed up the first 8 options.

Confirmed now on FI - 8 x A330MRTT for French AF:

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/france-orders-eight-airbus-a330-mrtts-420081/

The initial aircraft is expected to be delivered to the French air force in in 2018, with further handovers of one or two per year until 2025

This puzzles me... the A330CEO should be out of production by 2020ish. Conversion does not take 5 years. Are they just going to store the Frames in the meantime? That doesn't make much sense for Airbus. Is there some info we don't know? Will a trickle of CEO's continue to be produced for MRTTs?

[Edited 2015-12-16 01:11:54]

[Edited 2015-12-16 01:12:25]

Quoting WIederling (Reply 58): The A310MRTT were all conversions. If the customer is not interested in the possibility of cargo on the main deck, the conversion of a 330-200 to MRTT should be straight forward. Same seems to be valid for the A330 too. MRTT are not dedicated builds but come off the FAL line as ( my guess ) complete frames that just lack cabin outfit. Nothing changed in relation to PAX frames and able to fly away ( to Recife ) The certified changes are a "kit" applicable to any A330 frame. Oops: maybe the plumbing for the wing fueling stations is integrated while the wings are outfittet. Makes it easier but probably not required.

Correct. For example, one of the 2 Frames built for the USAF has ended up with KL. There is no technical impediment to do a conversion. What I was saying is that there is no official conversion program publically offered by Airbus. With the exception of this one for RAAF, all are new builds.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 62): What I was saying is that there is no official conversion program publically offered by Airbus. With the exception of this one for RAAF, all are new builds.

That is not really true, the MRTT is an STC, meaning any A330 could have the STC applied, including the A330-300. using new build aircraft allows for the various STC modifications to be included during the build cycle (mainly wiring).

Quoting r2rho (Reply 61): This puzzles me... the A330CEO should be out of production by 2020ish. Conversion does not take 5 years. Are they just going to store the Frames in the meantime? That doesn't make much sense for Airbus. Is there some info we don't know? Will a trickle of CEO's continue to be produced for MRTTs?

It seems entirely possible they would put a bunch of frames onto the end of the CEO production to help keep them going as they convert over to NEO production. Especially if they have several lines for the A330. Allows them to nicely convert one at a time.

Quoting ZaphodHarkonnen (Reply 64): It seems entirely possible they would put a bunch of frames onto the end of the CEO production to help keep them going as they convert over to NEO production. Especially if they have several lines for the A330. Allows them to nicely convert one at a time.

I believe the A330 is assembled on a single FAL, but they could probably sequence "original recipe" birds in between the "new formula" ones.

Quoting WIederling (Reply 58): Nothing changed in relation to PAX frames and able to fly away ( to Recife )

I think you mean Getafe? Or does Airbus have a secret base we do not know about?  

Quoting Stitch (Reply 65): It seems entirely possible they would put a bunch of frames onto the end of the CEO production to help keep them going as they convert over to NEO production. I believe the A330 is assembled on a single FAL, but they could probably sequence "original recipe" birds in between the "new formula" ones.

I agree, and yes, alternating CEO's and NEO's should be possible on the indeed single FAL in TLS, but as I said, CEO production was supposed to end pretty quickly after NEO introduction. Certainly much earlier than 2025.

Quoting zeke (Reply 63): That is not really true, the MRTT is an STC, meaning any A330 could have the STC applied, including the A330-300. using new build aircraft allows for the various STC modifications to be included during the build cycle (mainly wiring).

We all agree and are talking about the same thing. What I am trying to say is that today, Airbus does not, in its sales campaigns, offer an official conversion program. It offers new builds. Which yes, are conversions of basic A330's.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 66): Certainly much earlier than 2025.

But there would be nothing to stop Airbus building the ceo frames sooner and storing them until France needs them delivered.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 66): I think you mean Getafe? Or does Airbus have a secret base we do not know about?

If I'd tell you I'd have to k .... you  

( were Hans Dominik's "Prof. Eggerth" books ( here "Land aus Feuer und Wasser" ) ever translated ? )

Quoting r2rho (Reply 66): What I am trying to say is that today, Airbus does not, in its sales campaigns, offer an official conversion program. It offers new builds. Which yes, are conversions of basic A330's.

The additional MRTT(s?) for the lads down under utilizes a used Qantas frame.
( Then all A310MRTT were conversions too )

[Edited 2015-12-17 08:17:29]

Quoting scbriml (Reply 67): But there would be nothing to stop Airbus building the ceo frames sooner and storing them until France needs them delivered.

If the French AF makes some large advane payment, sure, otherwise it's quite a huge capital asset just sitting idle - a bean counter's nightmare.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 69): If the French AF makes some large advane payment, sure, otherwise it's quite a huge capital asset just sitting idle - a bean counter's nightmare.

Yes, I wasn't suggesting that Airbus swallow the cost of such a strategy.

But it does raise an interesting question about future MRTT and even freighter orders. Will Airbus continue to build MRTT and freighters based on A330ceo once the A330neo is in full production (i.e. no further passenger A330ceo left to be built)?

Quoting scbriml (Reply 70): But it does raise an interesting question about future MRTT and even freighter orders. Will Airbus continue to build MRTT and freighters based on A330ceo once the A330neo is in full production (i.e. no further passenger A330ceo left to be built)?

I guess it depends on the changes to the airframe and the FAL.

For example, I believe all new-build A330 wings have been modified to remove the support for the outboard engines, making them lighter overall. The A330-800 and A330-900 wing will need modification to support the heavier engines and the nacelle interface may be "cleaned up" so as to only mate to a Trent 7000 engine, which would mean it would not be possible to build an A330 airframe that could accept the current A330 engine lines.

So by default, the A330neo might become the only model available due to supplier constraints.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 71):

asked at Airbus.
The MRTT based on the A330-200 CEO frame will continue production. ( for the current planning horizon )
adding relevant (new) options to the green airframe can be made during production. ( new wingtip devices? )

I'd interprete that to mean that wingsets build to old spec will continue to be produced.
Same for original pylons and engines.

IMU there is also the short haul A330. Wasn't that one supposed to be based on the A330 CEO ?
i.e. there is more demand for classic wingsets beyond MRTT frames.

Quoting WIederling (Reply 72): IMU there is also the short haul A330. Wasn't that one supposed to be based on the A330 CEO ?

Yes, the A330-300 Regional is based on the current model.

Quoting WIederling (Reply 72): IMU there is also the short haul A330. Wasn't that one supposed to be based on the A330 CEO ?

A330 regional is not a different type. It's the same A330-300, just with a different cabin setup and de-rated MTOW.

[Edited 2015-12-19 09:32:35]

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 74):

But it is CEO derived and not NEO, right?

Properly done the outer wingstations are a kit that can be fitted during wing manufacture with low extra effort.
Or left out for the regular run of A330 frames.

Quoting WIederling (Reply 75): But it is CEO derived and not NEO, right?

Well yes, because the NEO is not yet available.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 76): Well yes, because the NEO is not yet available.

Aiiiiijjjjjjjj............ . /deflated. where is my mummy!   


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pillaOxGCo

cigar?   

The MRTT continues to tick off items on the types refueled list:

The RAAF KC-30A MRTT has succesfully refueled a USAF C-17 for the first time:
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/singapore-raaf-a330-mrtt-refuels-usaf-c-17-421902/

Also, in Q4 of last year, the RAAF also performed first refuel of an F-35A :
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/pictures-raaf-kc-30a-refuels-f-35a-for-first-time-417213/

Quoting Stitch (Reply 71): I believe all new-build A330 wings have been modified to remove the support for the outboard engines, making them lighter overall.

Is that support not required for the refuelling apparatus on the MRTT? Perhaps it could be added back for a MRTT neo?

Looks like there will be an order coming for another two for Australia. The defense white paper released yesterday said two more, it doesn't mention if they will be new or conversions like the previous two.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 80): The defense white paper released yesterday said two more, it doesn't mention if they will be new or conversions like the previous two.

I'd put money on them being conversions of two additional ex-QANTAS airframes.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 80): Looks like there will be an order coming for another two for Australia. The defense white paper released yesterday said two more, it doesn't mention if they will be new or conversions like the previous two.

There has been a tender out since last year to replace the VIP fleet, that may have something to do with it. They were looking at an A330 for the international work, the BBJ just did not work for them.

http://www.tenders.gov.au/?event=pub...52A231E-BFD0-8F70-BEA84007338AE512

Quoting zeke (Reply 82): ...the BBJ just did not work for them.

The BBJs have been in service for 14 years, they have outlived their usefulness in terms of size and technology. The key driver for changing the BBJ to something larger came in the wake of the 2007 Garuda crash at Yogyakarta Airport which killed five Australians including an Australian Diplomat, two Federal Police, an AUSAID worker and Journalist, during a ministerial visit to Indonesia. They were required to take the Garuda flight as there was not enough room for the support staff on the BBJ.

RAAF KC-30 to begin P-8A refuelling trials in early 2017:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...refuelling-trials-in-early-422870/

Spain delivered another MRTT to the Royal Air Force:

Airbus A330 -243MRTT 1610 ZZ343 Royal Air Force delivery 13jul16 LEGT-BZZ, regd MRTT029 ex EC-331

Another one inbound for conversion:

Airbus A330 -243 1735 F- Armée de l´Air ferried 22jul16 TLS-LEGT for MRTT conversion, regd EC-330 ex F-WWCK

An update regarding the improved A330 MRTT:

Airbus Defence and Space has successfully completed the maiden flight of the first new standard A330 MRTT

The new standard A330 MRTT features structural modifications, aerodynamic improvements giving a fuel-burn reduction of up to 1%, upgraded avionics computers and enhanced military systems. First delivery is due in 2018.

https://airbusdefenceandspace.com/newsr ... en-flight/

KarelXWB wrote:

An update regarding the improved A330 MRTT:

Airbus Defence and Space has successfully completed the maiden flight of the first new standard A330 MRTT

The new standard A330 MRTT features structural modifications, aerodynamic improvements giving a fuel-burn reduction of up to 1%, upgraded avionics computers and enhanced military systems. First delivery is due in 2018.

https://airbusdefenceandspace.com/newsr ... en-flight/

For whom is this one?

Dutchy wrote:

For whom is this one?

Singapore

Stitch wrote:

I expect the KC-10 replacement will now be more KC-46s. Making a KC-777 is going to be a non-starter due to the cost and the sheer size of the airframe and I expect cost and size will hurt the case of the A330MRTT / KC-45, as well.

Would have been cool to have a KC-11 replace it. Sadly it will never happen.

The French Air Force order made it to the order books:

Completing the month’s new business was an order for eight A330-200s, which will be converted by Airbus Defence and Space into A330 MRTT multi-role aerial tanker/transport aircraft for the French Air Force based on an order from the France’s DGA defence procurement agency.

http://www.airbus.com/company/market/orders-deliveries/

Which prospects are left for the A330Tanker?

Dutchy wrote:

Which prospects are left for the A330Tanker?

Anybody with a KC-135, KC-10, 707, KC-130, A310MRTT, Tu-16 or Il-78 based tanker, and hasn't ordered a replacement yet, plus add-on orders from existing customers and a handful of countries who don't currently operate tankers.

Best case scenario, they could probably sell at least 100 or more.

r2rho wrote:

Repost from KarelXWB on the (civil) A330 production thread:

Airbus A330 -243 MSN1667 Singapore Air Force ferried 30sep15 TLS-LEGT for MRTT-conversion, regd EC-333 ex F-WWYH

Singapore's first MRTT, MSN 1667, finished tanker conversion and returned to TLS:


1st Airbus A330 MRTT Singapore Air Force by Jujug Spotting, on Flickr


1st Airbus A330 MRTT Singapore Air Force by Jujug Spotting, on Flickr

This is the first converted A330 MRTT ever, right?

Every MRTT rolls off the assembly line as a vanilla A330 and flies to Spain for conversion.

bunumuring wrote:

Which way do you think Canada will eventually go? New or converted A330s? New Pegasus'? Converted 767s (ex-AC even)? Hand-me-downs from the US? That will be an interesting one to watch in the future!

How well has Canada fared with the A310 derivatives?

WIederling wrote:

How well has Canada fared with the A310 derivatives?

I would say pretty well. There were initial teething problems with the A310 tankers, which lead them to be sidelined at CFB Trenton for a bit after the conversion, but those got resolved.

The A310's were a massive step up from the C-130H(T)'s that the RCAF were forced to rely upon when the 707's retired. The C-130H(T)'s are a relatively slow aircraft, and their max speed is pretty close to the CF-18's stall speed. Not really useful for dragging fighters across the ocean, as either the CF-18's had to land and stop enroute, or rely on USAF tankers to provide inflight refueling. They are much more of a 'strategic' asset, in that they could take our CF-18's and deploy them quickly to some place far away from home so that they could be used to achieve strategic effect verses the C-130H(T)'s, which were much more of a 'tactical' asset, in that they could only refuel our CF-18's in theatre.

I don't think an CC150 Polaris replacement is in order for years; for one, all of them are late 1980's build aircraft with comparable few flight hours and cycles on them compared to ones used by airlines. As long as Airbus can provide support to the A310 fleet, and there are spare parts readily available, they will continue to fly.

ThePointblank wrote:

I don't think an CC150 Polaris replacement is in order for years; for one, all of them are late 1980's build aircraft with comparable few flight hours and cycles on them compared to ones used by airlines. As long as Airbus can provide support to the A310 fleet, and there are spare parts readily available, they will continue to fly.

Well, bunumuring asked:
Which way do you think Canada will eventually go? New or converted A330s? New Pegasus'? Converted 767s (ex-AC even)? Hand-me-downs from the US? That will be an interesting one to watch in the future!

Following your observation they'll go with MRTT ( when that comes up in the ?far? future ) ?