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ThePointblank
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Usmc Declares F-35B IOC

Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:11 pm

The USMC has declared their first squadron of F-35B's to be operational following a five day Operational Readiness Inspection. The squadron is VMFA-121 "Green Knights", based in MCAS Yuma with 10 F-35B's:

http://news.usni.org/2015/07/31/mari...lity-on-f-35b-joint-strike-fighter

VMFA-121 will be followed by VMA-211, a AV-8B squadron in 2016. Another squadron, VMFA-122, a F/A-18 squadron, will also convert in 2018.

There is an interview of Lt. Gen. Davis on declaring IOC:

http://www.dvidshub.net/video/417457...is-interview-f-35-ioc#.VbvyCfn61mN
 
Powerslide
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RE: Usmc Declares F-35B IOC

Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:34 am

Awesome, now send it over to the sandbox to replace those old POS A-10's.
 
nomadd22
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RE: Usmc Declares F-35B IOC

Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:58 am

Quoting Powerslide (Reply 1):
Awesome, now send it over to the sandbox to replace those old POS A-10's.

My ignorant comment meter just pegged.
Anon
 
Ozair
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RE: Usmc Declares F-35B IOC

Sat Aug 01, 2015 1:03 am

Quoting ThePointblank (Thread starter):
The USMC has declared their first squadron of F-35B's to be operational

Congratulations to all involved. It has taken longer and cost more than it should have but will be an incredible capability enhancement for the USMC!

The F-35B has some great potential for export orders. It will be interesting to see if IOC and a couple of years of service increase the order book.
 
hercppmx
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RE: Usmc Declares F-35B IOC

Sun Aug 02, 2015 8:23 am

Quoting Powerslide (Reply 1):
Awesome, now send it over to the sandbox to replace those old POS A-10's.

Per the Marine Corps Times the first deployment is not scheduled until 2017.
C-130; it's a love-hate relationship
 
ThePointblank
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RE: Usmc Declares F-35B IOC

Sun Aug 02, 2015 9:14 am

Quoting hercppmx (Reply 4):
Per the Marine Corps Times the first deployment is not scheduled until 2017.

Correct. The USMC wants to build up the pilot, maintainer, and instructor group first before deploying. Building momentum within the USMC for their tactical fleet renewal.

Of course, if push came to shove and there is an actual war that needs the USMC to deploy every available asset, they will deploy.
 
dl021
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RE: Usmc Declares F-35B IOC

Tue Aug 04, 2015 4:06 pm

Quoting Powerslide (Reply 1):
Awesome, now send it over to the sandbox to replace those old POS A-10's.

im hoping irony.

Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 2):
My ignorant comment meter just pegged.

That or irony.

The F-35 can't replace the A-10. It can replace the AV-8B which it is doing. It in many ways improves on the F-18, except perhaps in those aerial close in maneuvering.

Hope the gun is operational.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
nomadd22
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RE: Usmc Declares F-35B IOC

Tue Aug 04, 2015 4:42 pm

Quoting dl021 (Reply 6):
Hope the gun is operational.

I think the A model only has 180 rounds and 220 for the B and C.
Anon
 
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SeJoWa
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RE: Usmc Declares F-35B IOC

Wed Aug 05, 2015 12:40 pm

A step up for Marine Aviation.

I'd be interested in a timeline for weapons load out.
Is the F-35B qualified to use the present SDB [GBU-39]?

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 5):

Quoting hercppmx (Reply 4):
Per the Marine Corps Times the first deployment is not scheduled until 2017.

Correct. The USMC wants to build up the pilot, maintainer, and instructor group first before deploying. Building momentum within the USMC for their tactical fleet renewal.

Of course, if push came to shove and there is an actual war that needs the USMC to deploy every available asset, they will deploy.

They will attempt to deploy.

July 27, 2015 at 6:34 PM
...
Davis said early models of the F-35B are currently maintaining a 60 percent to 65 percent mission readiness rate, something he expects to rise substantially as more newer planes come to the line. He noted a training squadron with newer planes was “getting 70 to 75 percent rates the other day.” The overall goal is 80 percent later in the program.
...
http://breakingdefense.com/2015/07/d...ecision-4-bs-take-out-9-attackers/
 
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Adipasquale
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RE: Usmc Declares F-35B IOC

Wed Aug 05, 2015 1:17 pm

Quoting Powerslide (Reply 1):
Awesome, now send it over to the sandbox to replace those old POS A-10's.

I take this as sarcasm. Or a sorry attempt to create some sort of controversy due to the fact that the A-10 is loved by many people. If not...

Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 2):
My ignorant comment meter just pegged.

  
In all seriousness, for all of the F-35s well known shortcomings, delays and cost overruns, it will be a great asset for the USMC. It is much more capable and versatile than the AV-8, and I look forward to finally seeing it operational.
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INFINITI329
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RE: Usmc Declares F-35B IOC

Thu Aug 06, 2015 2:28 am

Quoting Powerslide (Reply 1):
Awesome, now send it over to the sandbox to replace those old POS A-10's.

Please exit stage left, thanks
 
ThePointblank
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RE: Usmc Declares F-35B IOC

Thu Aug 06, 2015 4:31 am

Quoting SeJoWa (Reply 8):
I'd be interested in a timeline for weapons load out.
Is the F-35B qualified to use the present SDB [GBU-39]?

Not right now. Currently, it's AIM-120, JDAM, and Paveway. Besides, the USMC and the USN don't use SDB; no Navy or Marine aircraft is qualified with that weapon.

Block 3 aircraft add GBU-39 capability, AIM-132 ASRAAM, Paveway IV, AGM-154 JSOW, AIM-9X, and for the F-35B and C, the external gun pod. Block 4 is proposed to add LJDAM, SPEAR 3, Meteor, and a whole host of other weapons. In fact, there's actually more weapons everyone wants to integrate with the F-35 than there is capacity to do so.
 
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SeJoWa
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RE: Usmc Declares F-35B IOC

Thu Aug 06, 2015 11:14 am

Thank you. These are the blockwise software upgrades, I take it.
I tried to find a timeline, but ended the effort after ten minutes.
So as not to leave without a contribution, I submit the following:

QUOTE/
Each of the three US services will reach initial operating capability (IOC) with different
software packages. The F-35B will go operational for the US Marines in December 2015 with the Block 2B software, while the Air Force plans on achieving IOC on the F-35A in December 2016 with Block 3I, which is essentially the same software on more powerful hardware. The Navy intends to go operational with the F-35C in February 2019, on the Block 3F software.
/UNQUOTE

Source: the ever useful Congressional Research Service, via
https://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/weapons/RL30563.pdf

What would be the priority among Block 3 weapons? AIM-132 and AIM-9X strike me as essential.

I'm very amazed the SDB-I isn't part of Navy and Marine inventories.
 
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SeJoWa
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RE: Usmc Declares F-35B IOC

Thu Aug 06, 2015 11:23 am

Quoting SeJoWa (Reply 12):
What would be the priority among Block 3 weapons? AIM-132 and AIM-9X strike me as essential.

Quoting myself now. The current chief of [USAF] Air Combat Command is right there:

QUOTE/
For weapons, he places a premium on the integration of Raytheon’s Small Diameter Bomb II and delivery of more advanced air-to-air combat weapon systems beyond the AIM-120C Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile ...

Carlisle says improved air-to-air capabilities are vitally important...

“Probably one of the greatest mistakes made was the lack of more F-22s,” he says of the decision to end Raptor production early.
/UNQUOTE

Source:
Sensor upgrades top USAF wish list for F-35 Block 4
By: JAMES DREWWASHINGTON DC Source: Flightglobal.com 15:54 3 Jun 2015
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...wish-list-for-f-35-block-4-413070/
 
Beta
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RE: Usmc Declares F-35B IOC

Tue Sep 15, 2015 4:00 pm

Has anyone got a chance to read this recent article?

http://www.realcleardefense.com/arti...f-35b_operational_test_108465.html

If true, it's a pretty damning report. In it, the Pentagon's Director of Operational Test and Evaluation (DOT&E) basically called out the USMC for Hollywood-staging its operational tests aboard the Wasp in order to declare IOC the F 35B. In fact the plane is no where near operational in any meaningful sense.
I'm not usually a doom-sayer of the F 35B, but this report is very disheartening to say the least.
 
Cross757
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RE: Usmc Declares F-35B IOC

Tue Sep 15, 2015 4:14 pm

Quoting Beta (Reply 14):
In fact the plane is no where near operational in any meaningful sense.

This is my surprised face:  Wow!
 
angad84
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RE: Usmc Declares F-35B IOC

Tue Sep 15, 2015 4:25 pm

Quoting Beta (Reply 14):
If true, it's a pretty damning report. In it, the Pentagon's Director of Operational Test and Evaluation (DOT&E) basically called out the USMC for Hollywood-staging its operational tests aboard the Wasp in order to declare IOC the F 35B. In fact the plane is no where near operational in any meaningful sense.

Genuinely interesting read...

I'm going to throw this at everyone that says the Indian AF is stonewalling the development of the Tejas LCA.

Cheers
A
 
Cross757
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RE: Usmc Declares F-35B IOC

Wed Sep 16, 2015 2:10 am

Quoting Powerslide (Reply 1):
Awesome, now send it over to the sandbox to replace those old POS A-10's.

Guess you're going to have to wait 5-6 more years for that, because the POS F-35 won't be able to perform it's mission until then.
 
Ozair
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RE: Usmc Declares F-35B IOC

Wed Sep 16, 2015 2:29 am

Quoting Beta (Reply 14):
If true, it's a pretty damning report. In it, the Pentagon's Director of Operational Test and Evaluation (DOT&E) basically called out the USMC for Hollywood-staging its operational tests aboard the Wasp in order to declare IOC the F 35B. In fact the plane is no where near operational in any meaningful sense.
I'm not usually a doom-sayer of the F 35B, but this report is very disheartening to say the least.

I'm not sure what people are expecting to see here. Other than Gilmore's sensationalized opening couple of pages the rest of the report reads like any other would at this stage of aircraft development, on what is the most complex of the three variants.

Quoting SeJoWa (Reply 13):
Carlisle says improved air-to-air capabilities are vitally important...

Interesting that Carlisle also stated the following, "says it is simply a capacity issue.".

So is he talking about a 6 AIM-120 internal load, a CUDA concept 12 missile internal load or just not enough magazine capacity within a small F-22 fleet? The later stages of F-35 Blk 4 would be prime for a new AAM such as the CUDA concept and I would expect F-22 and LRS-B to gain the same missile as well.
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: Usmc Declares F-35B IOC

Wed Sep 16, 2015 3:20 am

Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 7):
I think the A model only has 180 rounds and 220 for the B and C.

Have heard that they will be quite light on ammo rounds carried.
Would think it would be relatively simple to have 2 modes (rapid fire and a slow rate to conserve ammo).
64 types. 45 countries. 24 airlines.
 
Powerslide
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RE: Usmc Declares F-35B IOC

Wed Sep 16, 2015 4:38 am

Quoting adipasquale (Reply 9):
I take this as sarcasm. Or a sorry attempt to create some sort of controversy due to the fact that the A-10 is loved by many people. If not...

Christ people, this isn't a internet popularity contest. Who cares if the A-10 gets the most likes on Facebook. Fact is, it will soon be replaced by a better platform for the next generation of warfare. The A-10's days of killing soviet tanks is over...oh wait it didn't even do that.
 
Ozair
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RE: Usmc Declares F-35B IOC

Wed Sep 16, 2015 4:52 am

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 19):
Have heard that they will be quite light on ammo rounds carried.

Not really. It will carry slightly more than comparable aircraft at a slightly lower calibre.

Rafale 30mm cannon with 125 rounds
Eurofighter 27mm cannon with 150 rounds
Gripen 27mm cannon with 120 rounds
Su-30MKI 30mm cannon with 150 rounds

The 25mm is a good compromise between the previous M61 20mm and the 27 & 30mm variants on other aircraft.

Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 7):
I think the A model only has 180 rounds and 220 for the B and C.

Correct for the A model but 225 rounds for the B/C carried external pod.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 19):
Would think it would be relatively simple to have 2 modes (rapid fire and a slow rate to conserve ammo).

I heard they were investigating a couple of different fire rates but I don't think the requirement is practically pressing.

The GAU-22/U fires at 2880 rounds per minute at full rate. So, 180~225 is about 3.8~4.7 seconds worth of ammo. But gatlings take about a second and a half to get to full rate. So in multiple 1 second long short bursts, its about 7~9 seconds total worth of firing time.
 
ThePointblank
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RE: Usmc Declares F-35B IOC

Wed Sep 16, 2015 5:23 am

Quoting Beta (Reply 14):
If true, it's a pretty damning report. In it, the Pentagon's Director of Operational Test and Evaluation (DOT&E) basically called out the USMC for Hollywood-staging its operational tests aboard the Wasp in order to declare IOC the F 35B. In fact the plane is no where near operational in any meaningful sense.
I'm not usually a doom-sayer of the F 35B, but this report is very disheartening to say the least.

Seriously? A POGO report? That group of foaming at the mouth clowns?

Let's get to the very heart of the report: hours flown verses hours planned. OT-1 wasn't about generating sorties or flying hours. It was about how the F-35 integrated onboard and the ability of Marines to work it on and below decks.

How many of the Not Mission Capable (NMC) blocks in the table shown represent planned downtime for maintenance and plane handling demonstrations like engine module changes and the exercise where they learned they had to make changes if they want to swap the lift fan?

How about when the USMC got the information they needed in less time than was originally planned? Did POGO or DOT&E ever consider that? If I'm billing my hours for a project, and I originally estimated 30 hours of billable hours to accomplish the task, but I only needed 25 hours in the end, is that an issue? Should one just bill an additional 5 hours of just sitting around drinking coffee if we took the view of POGO and DOT&E just so we got the 30 hours that we originally estimated?

So, bottom line: The POGO/DOT&E emphasis on sorties and MC rates was not the purpose of the OT-1. It was about finding out how well the F-35B integrated onboard an amphibious assault ship, and if the USMC forgot something or needed to adjust procedures to adjust how life onboard worked.

[Edited 2015-09-15 22:28:35]
 
angad84
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RE: Usmc Declares F-35B IOC

Wed Sep 16, 2015 7:38 am

Quoting Ozair (Reply 18):
I'm not sure what people are expecting to see here. Other than Gilmore's sensationalized opening couple of pages the rest of the report reads like any other would at this stage of aircraft development, on what is the most complex of the three variants.

I think the lying and whitewashing is the issue, not the fact that the jet has trouble.

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 22):
Seriously? A POGO report? That group of foaming at the mouth clowns?

It's DOT&E, POGO simply pulled it.

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 22):
Let's get to the very heart of the report: hours flown verses hours planned. OT-1 wasn't about generating sorties or flying hours. It was about how the F-35 integrated onboard and the ability of Marines to work it on and below decks.

Why do these post hoc rationalisations always come up when raw data paints an unflattering picture? OT-1 called for X hours flown, the test detachment of six aircraft failed to meet it. One would assume the target was realistic, if not outright easy, because it wasn't the primary goal.

Why bother with a flying hours target at all? If it was such a low priority, then one could assume they set the bar low, and STILL failed to meet it.

In addition, just because OT-1 was a learning experience - and I wholeheartedly agree it was - doesn't mean it was a success. The results on the whole appear far from encouraging. You can learn from failures, just don't, y'know, call them successes.

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 22):
The POGO/DOT&E emphasis on sorties and MC rates was not the purpose of the OT-1.

Maybe not, but it should be a consideration when declaring IOC for a type. It clearly hasn't been, which is why the word 'damning' is being thrown around.

Cheers
A
 
ThePointblank
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RE: Usmc Declares F-35B IOC

Wed Sep 16, 2015 8:36 am

Quoting angad84 (Reply 23):

It's DOT&E, POGO simply pulled it.

And heavily slanted by POGO to reflect their own views. POGO, if you aren't aware, is an extreme anti-military group that has critical of practically every military procurement program since it was founded by an avowed anti-war activist.

Quoting angad84 (Reply 23):
Why do these post hoc rationalisations always come up when raw data paints an unflattering picture? OT-1 called for X hours flown, the test detachment of six aircraft failed to meet it. One would assume the target was realistic, if not outright easy, because it wasn't the primary goal.

Because DOT&E estimated that a certain number of hours would be required to achieve a testing goal. The USMC got the information they needed in LESS time than expected.

Quoting angad84 (Reply 23):

Why bother with a flying hours target at all? If it was such a low priority, then one could assume they set the bar low, and STILL failed to meet it.

Because it's an ESTIMATE. The actual amount of time required to achieve a goal could be higher or lower. It's just an estimate for scheduling purposes.

Furthermore, the amount of flying hours is also affected by the shipboard operations that could be totally independent of the testing. For example, say bad weather on one particular day causes the cancellation of all non-critical flight operations onboard; would you characterize it as being a failure of aircraft that they didn't do any flying that day because of the weather, or something else?

Quoting angad84 (Reply 23):
In addition, just because OT-1 was a learning experience - and I wholeheartedly agree it was - doesn't mean it was a success. The results on the whole appear far from encouraging. You can learn from failures, just don't, y'know, call them successes.

There is nothing in the 41 page report worth getting all sweated up about!

Quoting angad84 (Reply 23):

Maybe not, but it should be a consideration when declaring IOC for a type. It clearly hasn't been, which is why the word 'damning' is being thrown around.

OT-1 wasn't designed to test sortie rates and MC rates! It was about shipboard compatibility, namely, are the tools, equipment, training, and procedures that were developed operationally effective at sea? They discovered, that yes, one could operate production F-35's off an amphibious assault ship, but there were issues that can be addressed for future operations. Perhaps workstations needs to be reconfigured. So what? Reconfigure it. Perhaps a procedure that was developed doesn't work onboard a ship. Develop a better procedure. Perhaps a certain piece of equipment hasn't reached the ship prior to testing and the maintainers onboard have a hell of a time working on the aircraft as a result. Get that piece of equipment onboard next time.

And the usage of the word 'damning'? That's POGO sensationalism for you.
 
Beta
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RE: Usmc Declares F-35B IOC

Wed Sep 16, 2015 8:38 pm

Here's the pdf copy of the DOT&E memo report for a better and clearer reading.

http://www.pogoarchives.org/straus/2015-9-1-DoD-FOIA-ocr.pdf

Take away points:

1. Like it or not, the USMC, Lock-Mart, the F35 JPO all sold the public at large that with the USMC's declaration of IOC, the F35 is "ready" for operational use. The DOT & E made clear that was far from realization. Shall we say misleading PR? The similarly troubled MV22 achieved IOC in 2007, and deployed to Iraq in the same year, albeit with careful monitoring and use. While with IOC, the F35B is not even cleared to fly within 25NM of lightning condition? Practically a fair-weather only aerial weapon systems at the moment.

2. ALIS, the much ballyhooed automated logistic and maintenance system, remains a problem with no clear timeline for resolution. (For the tests on the WASP, the ALIS was 2.0v, Lock-Mart is supposedly working on the 3.0v). A small sample survey of the maintainers about satisfaction with ALIS averaged a 60s% score. A C/C- grade, or "marginally acceptable."

3. The radar systems appear to work well as advertised per pilots' reports. Sensor fusion (a much touted feature) remains unfulfilled at this point in time.

4. Quality control issues with both the USAF and USMC report their respective F35 fleets barely touched 60% readiness rate.
 
Ozair
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RE: Usmc Declares F-35B IOC

Wed Sep 16, 2015 11:05 pm

Quoting Beta (Reply 25):
Like it or not, the USMC, Lock-Mart, the F35 JPO all sold the public at large that with the USMC's declaration of IOC, the F35 is "ready" for operational use.

The only organisation authorized to declare the F-35B as IOC is the USMC. The F-35 JPO and LM have nothing to do with it.

Quoting Beta (Reply 25):
While with IOC, the F35B is not even cleared to fly within 25NM of lightning condition? Practically a fair-weather only aerial weapon systems at the moment.

That issue has been fixed and certified but if you read the report there were a couple of jets that hadn't received the modification and so were limited to certain weather conditions.

Quoting Beta (Reply 25):
The similarly troubled MV22 achieved IOC in 2007, and deployed to Iraq in the same year, albeit with careful monitoring and use.

There is no reason the F-35B could not do the same. Each month the USMC receives additional F-35B in the latest configuration with many of the concurrency modifications already implemented. You will notice that several of the jets in the test were Blk 3i and not Blk 2B which the USMC required for IOC.

Quoting Beta (Reply 25):
2. ALIS, the much ballyhooed automated logistic and maintenance system, remains a problem with no clear timeline for resolution. (For the tests on the WASP, the ALIS was 2.0v, Lock-Mart is supposedly working on the 3.0v). A small sample survey of the maintainers about satisfaction with ALIS averaged a 60s% score. A C/C- grade, or "marginally acceptable."

ALIS is a known and acknowledged issue but I don't see why it should prevent the aircraft from going IOC.

Quoting Beta (Reply 25):
3. The radar systems appear to work well as advertised per pilots' reports. Sensor fusion (a much touted feature) remains unfulfilled at this point in time.

Under Blk 2B sensor fusion works for one to three jets but not for four, a patch has been added to later Blks though that will fix the four ship issues.

Quoting Beta (Reply 25):
4. Quality control issues with both the USAF and USMC report their respective F35 fleets barely touched 60% readiness rate.

This is consistent with predictions for airframe readiness at this stage of development and matches well with other programs. As production increases and more concurrency items are incorporated into the production line the variance within the fleet will lessen and maintenance procedures will bed down.
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: Usmc Declares F-35B IOC

Thu Sep 17, 2015 4:42 am

Quoting Ozair (Reply 21):
Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 19):
Have heard that they will be quite light on ammo rounds carried.

Not really. It will carry slightly more than comparable aircraft at a slightly lower calibre.

Rafale 30mm cannon with 125 rounds
Eurofighter 27mm cannon with 150 rounds
Gripen 27mm cannon with 120 rounds
Su-30MKI 30mm cannon with 150 rounds

Difference being that the F-35 is supposed to be designed with CAS in mind (at least more-so than the others).
This compares to over 1000 rounds in the A-10
64 types. 45 countries. 24 airlines.
 
Ozair
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RE: Usmc Declares F-35B IOC

Thu Sep 17, 2015 5:23 am

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 27):
Difference being that the F-35 is supposed to be designed with CAS in mind (at least more-so than the others).
This compares to over 1000 rounds in the A-10

I missed the memo where it said that to be an effective CAS aircraft you need to have more than 1000 rounds of ammunition. Perhaps you should say something to the Russians who designed, built and operate the Su-25 along with the other 20 or so nations that operate it. It has a grand total of 250 rounds for its GSh-30-2 30mm cannon.

CAS is not about the gun, it is about the right weapon for the right target. Sometimes that is a gun, most often it is something else.
 
ThePointblank
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RE: Usmc Declares F-35B IOC

Thu Sep 17, 2015 2:00 pm

Quoting Ozair (Reply 26):
This is consistent with predictions for airframe readiness at this stage of development and matches well with other programs. As production increases and more concurrency items are incorporated into the production line the variance within the fleet will lessen and maintenance procedures will bed down.

Also, the maintainers are using non-operationally representative support equipment (for example, the generator and air conditioning cart that's currently being used are only meant for supporting developmental flight testing, there will be a production standard version coming down the line). This creates more downtime as a result.

If you also read what was going on during OT-1, the majority of maintainers during the test were actual USMC personnel, many either working with the F-35 for the very first time (being transferred from other aircraft), or were new USMC personnel (never been out on ship before).

Quoting Ozair (Reply 28):

I missed the memo where it said that to be an effective CAS aircraft you need to have more than 1000 rounds of ammunition. Perhaps you should say something to the Russians who designed, built and operate the Su-25 along with the other 20 or so nations that operate it. It has a grand total of 250 rounds for its GSh-30-2 30mm cannon.

The USMC also missed the memo as well, as their primary fixed wing CAS aircraft, the AV-8B, carries 300 rounds of 25mm ammunition, in a detachable gun pod. Clearly, the most experience service in the US military at fixed wing CAS doesn't know what the heck they are doing.   
 
flyDTW1992
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RE: Usmc Declares F-35B IOC

Sat Sep 19, 2015 2:02 am

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 29):
The USMC also missed the memo as well, as their primary fixed wing CAS aircraft, the AV-8B, carries 300 rounds of 25mm ammunition, in a detachable gun pod. Clearly, the most experience service in the US military at fixed wing CAS doesn't know what the heck they are doing.   

Not to mention, if it's gun runs the marines on the ground are looking for, the USMC also has plenty of AH-1s and UH-1s with cannons and MGs.
Now you're flying smart
 
ThePointblank
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RE: Usmc Declares F-35B IOC

Sat Sep 19, 2015 3:10 am

Quoting flyDTW1992 (Reply 30):
Not to mention, if it's gun runs the marines on the ground are looking for, the USMC also has plenty of AH-1s and UH-1s with cannons and MGs.

And for the US Army, they have hundreds of AH-64's ready to provide fire support... not to mention significant amounts of artillery as well.

And that's beyond the fact that the USMC uses fixed-wing CAS to bolster a Marine Division's fire support capabilities. The reason the USMC does this is because if you compared a USMC Division to a US Army Light Infantry Division, the USMC division has significantly less organic artillery assets in comparison. The USMC uses fixed wing CAS as a sort of flying artillery to provide the necessary fire support that otherwise would have come from traditional artillery.
 
Max Q
Posts: 8252
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

RE: Usmc Declares F-35B IOC

Sat Sep 19, 2015 8:37 am

Quoting flyDTW1992 (Reply 30):
Not to mention, if it's gun runs the marines on the ground are looking for, the USMC also has plenty of AH-1s and UH-1s with cannons and MGs.
Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 31):
And for the US Army, they have hundreds of AH-64's ready to provide fire support... not to mention significant amounts of artillery as well.

Well that's a relief, after spending how many billions its good to know we have other aircraft that can actually do the job
that was intended for the F35   
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
Cross757
Posts: 233
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2007 1:32 pm

RE: Usmc Declares F-35B IOC

Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:35 pm

Quoting Powerslide (Reply 20):
The A-10's days of killing soviet tanks is over...oh wait it didn't even do that.

And the days of the B-1 or B-52 flying deep into the Soviet Union to deliver nuclear weapons is over too, oh wait...
And the days of the F-22 Raptor flying combat missions, hmm, wait, they haven't really done anything but fly to airshows either...
Fact: the A-10 was never designed solely to destroy tanks. It always was about CAS.

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 31):
And for the US Army, they have hundreds of AH-64's ready to provide fire support... not to mention significant amounts of artillery as well.

And yet they still call in fixed wing CAS support, constantly. Helicopters are limited in response time (unless they are extremely forward based) and are much more vulnerable to ground fire. Almost every aircraft lost in OEF has been a rotary-wing aircraft.

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 29):
Clearly, the most experience service in the US military at fixed wing CAS doesn't know what the heck they are doing

What makes them the most experienced at fixed wing CAS?

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 24):
And heavily slanted by POGO to reflect their own views. POGO, if you aren't aware, is an extreme anti-military group that has critical of practically every military procurement program since it was founded by an avowed anti-war activist

So what? Are they not entitled to voice concern over the millions of dollars wasted on the F-35 program so far? Just because you may not like what the report contains does not mean it isn't relevant. And any "sensationalism" embedded in the article by POGO is no worse than the often greatly over-exaggerated claims made about the superiority of the F-35. And it doesn't change the fact that the initial report came from an office in the PENTAGON, that is crying foul over the USMC claiming the F-35 has reached IOC. All the ship-board "tests" concluded was that the F-35 could operate from a ship. Well I certainly the heck hope so, that is what the F-35B was designed for. Again, "IOC" is a milestone is name only according to the report...essentially meaningless as the F-35B is still years away from being able to operate at 100% of it's proposed design capabilities.

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 29):
Also, the maintainers are using non-operationally representative support equipment (for example, the generator and air conditioning cart that's currently being used are only meant for supporting developmental flight testing, there will be a production standard version coming down the line). This creates more downtime as a result

Even more of a reason to be skeptical of the USMC declaring the F-35 has reached IOC. Seems like one excuse after another to draw attention away from the fact that the F-35, according to a 2015 DOT&E report, has failed to meet any of it's program development milestones.
 
JohnM
Posts: 395
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2001 12:35 pm

RE: Usmc Declares F-35B IOC

Thu Sep 24, 2015 12:11 am

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 31):
And for the US Army, they have hundreds of AH-64's ready to provide fire support... not to mention significant amounts of artillery as well.

No, they can't do the job properly. They are too inexperienced.

I remember seeing a Desert Storm listing of tonnage of bombs dropped. The AV-8 was so far down the list, I think sea gulls dropped more iron. My impression was they were invited to get some experience and not feel left out.

As far as Lockmart developing the logistics computer systems and software creation in general, keep in mind these are the guys had their asses kicked with the C-5 AMP mod and the C-5M. Navigational programs on airplanes go to hell quickly when every year is assumed to have 365 days for example, and leap year comes around. This is one example, there are too many to count. I hope the pointy nose software guys at Lockmart have better luck.
 
ThePointblank
Topic Author
Posts: 3429
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:39 pm

RE: Usmc Declares F-35B IOC

Thu Sep 24, 2015 3:12 am

Quoting Cross757 (Reply 33):
And yet they still call in fixed wing CAS support, constantly. Helicopters are limited in response time (unless they are extremely forward based) and are much more vulnerable to ground fire. Almost every aircraft lost in OEF has been a rotary-wing aircraft.

That's because the Army's been short changed in theater, and they don't have enough assets in theater to provide their own organic support.

Not to mention how spread out Allied troops are throughout the AO; makes it more difficult to provide coverage, and now they don't have the men or material to provide the support needed.

Quoting Cross757 (Reply 33):
What makes them the most experienced at fixed wing CAS?

The USMC has been providing close air support to ground forces from fixed wing aircraft since the Banana Wars. That's a tradition and skill that has been honed for almost 100 years.

Quoting Cross757 (Reply 33):
And it doesn't change the fact that the initial report came from an office in the PENTAGON, that is crying foul over the USMC claiming the F-35 has reached IOC. All the ship-board "tests" concluded was that the F-35 could operate from a ship. Well I certainly the heck hope so, that is what the F-35B was designed for. Again, "IOC" is a milestone is name only according to the report...essentially meaningless as the F-35B is still years away from being able to operate at 100% of it's proposed design capabilities.
Quoting Cross757 (Reply 33):
Even more of a reason to be skeptical of the USMC declaring the F-35 has reached IOC. Seems like one excuse after another to draw attention away from the fact that the F-35, according to a 2015 DOT&E report, has failed to meet any of it's program development milestones.

As I said before: DOT&E is a self-licking ice cream cone. They'd be short of responsibility, authority, and funding if they actually did their job properly. If you want to see the negative effects DOT&E has had on weapon systems development, compare the development and testing length times of any new weapons system developed post the 1980's verses before. There is a SIGNIFICANT jump in development and testing length times (with a corresponding jump in costs) post DOT&E.

For DOT&E to insinuate after-the-fact that there was something untowards the USMC declaring IOC with the F-35B when that office not only help change the testing scope of OT-1, but approved it is nothing sort of incredulous.

What DOT&E is perhaps more concerned about is empire building. If you haven't noticed, the Operational Testing people have been putting the F-35 through its paces very quickly in their own tests and in large scale exercises (such as Green Flag). DOT&E very well sees that as a threat to their system of large, formal, expensive, time consuming IOT&E.

The Operational Testing people already have over a hundred F-35's flying in support of their testing, accumulating tens of thousands of hours in flight time, in conjunction with the people at weapons schools and squadron level activities working on developing tactics and refining the performance of the F-35. What knowledge will DOT&E gain that won't be gained from the collective work of all of these work groups?

Want to make a Pentagon bureaucrat mad and come after you with his pen screaming bloody murder? Tell him his office is irrelevant. And that's what DOT&E is doing right now.

In the end someone's going to ask why should we spend millions of dollars on DOT&E to have someone write a report to tell us what we collectively will already know about F-35 months, perhaps years ago. Now multiply that across other weapons systems DOT&E is involved in. Eventually, someone is going to catch on and ask why should DOT&E exist in the first place.
 
Cross757
Posts: 233
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2007 1:32 pm

RE: Usmc Declares F-35B IOC

Thu Sep 24, 2015 3:24 am

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 35):
As I said before: DOT&E is a self-licking ice cream cone

That may very well be, but in the end, DOT&E is not responsible for the F-35's failures. They have may approved of the test, but it was the USMC that declared the F-35 had reached IOC after the tests, not DOT&E, correct? Isn't it just DOT&E expressing dismay that the USMC went ahead and declared IOC even though the scope of the test was in no way representative of a true "Operational Readiness Exercise" used verify IOC capability?
 
ThePointblank
Topic Author
Posts: 3429
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:39 pm

RE: Usmc Declares F-35B IOC

Thu Sep 24, 2015 3:47 am

Quoting Cross757 (Reply 36):
They have may approved of the test, but it was the USMC that declared the F-35 had reached IOC after the tests, not DOT&E, correct?

Yes, and it's the individual services that decides on when to declare IOC, not DOT&E. In this case, the USMC declared IOC.

In fact, it was DOT&E that recommended the changes to OT-1 to ensure that the testing didn't interfere with Block 3F development.

DOT&E not only approved the re-scoping, they recommended it and helped create it - see the quote below from DOT&E's 2014 Annual Report:

hxxp://www.dote.osd.mil/pub/reports/FY2014/pdf/dod/2014f35jsf.pdf

Quote:
Originally a part of the Block 2B OUE, this deployment has been re-scoped to support plans for the Marine Corps IOC later in 2015. The plans call for up to six production aircraft for the deployment, scheduled to take place in May 2015.

This refers to this shipboard OT-1 test that has gotten DOT&E all worked up about.

Quote:
In April [2014], the program accepted a DOT&E recommendation that the Block 2B Operational Utility Evaluation (OUE), which was being planned for CY15, should not be conducted and that instead, resources should be focused on conducting limited assessments of Block 2B capability

So here, DOT&E indicates that the Program Office and the USMC accepted a recommendation from DOT&E to change and rescope the test. This was done because DOT&E reviewed Block 2B progress and assessed the capability of the program to conduct OUE without significantly impacting Block 3F development.

So, DOT&E was complaining about a recommendation they recommended that was accepted by the USMC and the F-35 Program Office.

Quoting Cross757 (Reply 36):
Isn't it just DOT&E expressing dismay that the USMC went ahead and declared IOC even though the scope of the test was in no way representative of a true "Operational Readiness Exercise" used verify IOC capability?

Again, the individual services determines what sort of capabilities they want at IOC, not DOT&E. In the case of the USMC, they wanted enough people trained on the F-35B to support 20 aircraft for deployment at Block 2B level of capabilities.

[Edited 2015-09-23 20:47:52]

[Edited 2015-09-23 20:52:16]

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