Plane Crash At Shoreham Airshow

ferengi80 · Sat Aug 22, 2015 1:41 pm

Breaking news on Sky and BBC at the moment, a Hawker Hunter aircraft has crashed at the airshow at ESH. It is thought the plane has crashed on to the A27 arterial road and hit several cars. Early reports are that there are several casualties on the ground.

Thinking of all those involved.

maninch · Sat Aug 22, 2015 2:16 pm

Terrible event. Latest I've read is that two cyclists were killed in the crash: also that the pilot was 'dragged from the burning wreckage and taken to hospital'. From seeing the one video currently available, I would be delighted and amazed were that the case.

Also, a pic of 'the Hunter' showed it to be WV372 which, I think, was based at North Weald. Didn't they also lose a Gnat last month? Dark times at NW; prayers for all concerned.

Part147 · Sat Aug 22, 2015 2:50 pm

A very sad video showing the flight all the way down to the road... a sad day...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvHplYmh2f8

CPH-R · Sat Aug 22, 2015 2:50 pm

Video w/o sound: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvHplYmh2f8

Looking pretty bad. I was just thinking of the Gnat they lost not too long ago, not been a good summer as far as UK Warbirds are concerned.

SyeaphanR · Sat Aug 22, 2015 2:57 pm

I'm worrying about a possible Nanny State backlash against warbirds...

ferengi80 · Sat Aug 22, 2015 2:58 pm

Sky News are reporting that several people have died and looking at that video, I am not surprised. It has come down right on to the A27, the main road, and has exploded on impact. I would be very surprised if the pilot did survive this.

May those that have lost their lives RIP.

foxecho · Sat Aug 22, 2015 3:26 pm

I saw it happen. The pilot has apparently been pulled out alive

RIP to those who perished

Andrew

MadameConcorde · Sat Aug 22, 2015 3:30 pm

I was watching the air show live on PlanesTV Youtube channel
I saw the Hunter crash when it happened. I was waiting to see XH558 display.

She did a slow flypast on the display line.

What a horrible accident. Really unfortunate.
They are saying that the pilot was pulled out of the wreck he was still alive.

RIP Hawker Hunter crash victims.

downtown273 · Sat Aug 22, 2015 3:58 pm

Seven confirmed dead. RIP.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34027260

SyeaphanR · Sat Aug 22, 2015 4:17 pm

Scarcely politics, more like modern society at work. Sad to see so many casualties.

B8887 · Sat Aug 22, 2015 4:26 pm

Quoting foxecho (Reply 6):
The pilot has apparently been pulled out alive

Not yet confirmed, but judging by the footage, amazing if true.

Scroll down this link for a video shot from the roof of a residential street.

http://metro.co.uk/2015/08/22/pilot-...h-caused-several-injuries-5355892/

Regards.

B8887

frostyj · Sat Aug 22, 2015 4:30 pm

How would the pilot get out of that!?

lhrnue · Sat Aug 22, 2015 4:36 pm

Shocking videos. Looks like cars on the road been in a traffic jam.
RIP

ferengi80 · Sat Aug 22, 2015 4:45 pm

This has been posted on twitter, taken from the side of the A27. It looks from this that the canopy is open. There is an object in the air on fire - could this be the ejector seat?

e195 · Sat Aug 22, 2015 5:12 pm

Quoting ferengi80 (Reply 14):
This has been posted on twitter, taken from the side of the A27. It looks from this that the canopy is open. There is an object in the air on fire - could this be the ejector seat?

i am gobsmacked at that picture, and it being able to be captured.

RIP to those who lost their lives

moo · Sat Aug 22, 2015 5:15 pm

Quoting E195 (Reply 15):
i am gobsmacked at that picture, and it being able to be captured.

Looks like a still from a dashboard video camera.

flylku · Sat Aug 22, 2015 5:18 pm

What is strange to me is that the manoeuvre appears to be performed outside the boundaries of the airport and specifically not over the runway. I was under the impression that most air shows require, for the most part, that aerobatics are performed over the runway and that crowds are set back from the runway. I do not know this airport or the area so maybe it is just the angle in the video.

readytotaxi · Sat Aug 22, 2015 5:20 pm

I hope those people in the bottom right of the photo managed to get clear.

moo · Sat Aug 22, 2015 5:31 pm

Quoting flylku (Reply 17):
What is strange to me is that the manoeuvre appears to be performed outside the boundaries of the airport and specifically not over the runway. I was under the impression that most air shows require, for the most part, that aerobatics are performed over the runway and that crowds are set back from the runway. I do not know this airport or the area so maybe it is just the angle in the video.

In the UK there is a display line limit, which depends on the display flown, the aircraft and conditions - at RIAT that line is 200 meters from the crowd, which puts the display line over the other side of the runway. At smaller fields, that means displays are often done over non-airfield land.

Viper911 · Sat Aug 22, 2015 5:33 pm

RIP to anyone who perished in this sad event.

In continuation to the picture, check this video out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lQiCyLZs2E

Viper911

georgiabill · Sat Aug 22, 2015 5:33 pm

RIP all who died in this accident. Condolences to family and friends.

Part147 · Sat Aug 22, 2015 5:38 pm

Quoting lhrnue (Reply 13):

Shocking videos. Looks like cars on the road been in a traffic jam.
RIP

It looks as if the cars were going through a set of traffic lights, a single lane moving slowly between bollards/traffic measures and pedestrians walking along the edges towards the airshow.

It will be very sad hearing from so many people who went out on a beautiful sunny day and now have a terrible story to tell... a tragic day

moo · Sat Aug 22, 2015 5:40 pm

This is the first time since 1952 that people on the ground have died as a result of an airshow crash in the UK

GDB · Sat Aug 22, 2015 5:53 pm

I was going to say worst death toll at a UK airshow since John Derry in the DH.110 at Farnborough in 1952 but as moo points out, the first time since.

No comfort to those who have lost loved ones and though it's early days yet, if the investigation recommends changes to airshows, in particular smaller ones like Shoreham, that some might call 'nanny state', then so be it.
The most over used and abused slogan of our times.
What might weigh heavily is that it seems most of the victims were on the road, not at the airshow itself.

A terrible day for aviation in the UK.

petertenthije · Sat Aug 22, 2015 6:20 pm

Quoting ferengi80 (Reply 14):
This has been posted on twitter, taken from the side of the A27. It looks from this that the canopy is open. There is an object in the air on fire - could this be the ejector seat?

Considering the flames surrounding it a drop tank seems more likely.

awthompson · Sat Aug 22, 2015 6:30 pm

I don't want to be a spoil sport but as long as air show display aircraft perform full loops and other similar manoeuvers (UK spelling) so close to the ground with little margin for error, this type of event will continue to happen now and again. As a generalization, and in my opinion, the air display community (worldwide) appears to accept the fact that on the odd occasion, an aircraft will crash, all for the sake of putting on hair raising displays for air show crowds. I cannot count how many videos I have watched of display aircraft crashing into the ground during the pull out phase of dives or loops.

This guy appears to have been slow to pull out of the dive for whatever reason. Maybe he was waiting a second or two for sufficient speed building up to start the pull out without risking an aerodynamic stall. However as altitude starts to get scarce, he does pull, likely too hard resulting in a stall, and possibly a secondary stall, hence loses any further chance of avoiding the ground. Margin of error too small in my estimation.

It is possible also that he suffered power loss for whatever reason, leaving him with no option after stalling, but try to put the plane down on the road. Based on the first video linked above, he does appear before impact to be manoeuvring the plane towards the road albeit in a semi stalled condition with very little real control.

notaxonrotax · Sat Aug 22, 2015 6:44 pm

Which aircraft was it?
Is she in the data base?

No Tax On Rotax

larshjort · Sat Aug 22, 2015 6:50 pm

Quoting notaxonrotax (Reply 27):
Which aircraft was it?Is she in the data base?No Tax On Rotax

Quoting maninch (Reply 1):

Also, a pic of 'the Hunter' showed it to be WV372 which, I think, was based at North Weald. Didn't they also lose a Gnat last month? Dark times at NW; prayers for all concerned.

If #1 is right then it is:

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Photo © Phil Chaplin

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Photo © Ad Vercruijsse

karadion · Sat Aug 22, 2015 6:51 pm

Too low in the loop = unplanned and unpracticed maneuver that the pilot decided to make at the last second. That's how I interpret it.

[Edited 2015-08-22 11:52:05]

Part147 · Sat Aug 22, 2015 6:51 pm

Quoting petertenthije (Reply 25):
Considering the flames surrounding it a drop tank seems more likely.

flyingturtle · Sat Aug 22, 2015 7:33 pm

I came home from an air show and read about this...

RIP the deceased, much strength to their relatives, good recovery to all injured...

David

lhrnue · Sat Aug 22, 2015 8:06 pm

Quoting Karadion (Reply 29):

Too low in the loop = unplanned and unpracticed maneuver that the pilot decided to make at the last second. That's how I interpret it.

I take it, that this is pure speculation?

PanAm1971 · Sat Aug 22, 2015 8:12 pm

Quoting ferengi80 (Reply 14):
This has been posted on twitter, taken from the side of the A27. It looks from this that the canopy is open. There is an object in the air on fire - could this be the ejector seat?

That is a remarkable picture. It appears likely the 7 dead are visible at the right of the picture. However, that could also be a depth of field distortion. RIP to the dead.

PanAm1971 · Sat Aug 22, 2015 8:14 pm

Could this have been as simple as an incorrectly set altimeter? I'd imagine he would have looked at his altitude before pulling over out of the vertical.

winterlight · Sat Aug 22, 2015 8:16 pm

Reminds me of the Concorde crash photo. Horrific.

moo · Sat Aug 22, 2015 8:17 pm

The pilot would be carrying out a display that he would have had gained display authourisation for (all display pilots need to present their planned display in full to a CAA approved official in a proper flying demo before they are allowed to participate in the display season).

If a display pilot deviates from the planned display for any reason other than safety, he can lose his display authourisation for the rest of the season and have a struggle on his hands to get it back for the next season.

So no, the loop would not be an unplanned and unpracticed manouever unless the pilot wanted that to be his final display.

nitepilot79 · Sat Aug 22, 2015 8:26 pm

Quoting Viper911 (Reply 20):

RIP to anyone who perished in this sad event.

In continuation to the picture, check this video out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lQiCyLZs2E

Viper911

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lQiCyLZs2E

There you go, Viper911

.

Last, but certainly not least, R.I.P. to all the people that were lost Sad

.

[Edited 2015-08-22 13:30:52]

flyingturtle · Sat Aug 22, 2015 8:38 pm

This video shows the looping from the side, giving an idea about the difficulty of pulling up...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?t=24&v=XjmglwWS3xU

David

trnswrld · Sat Aug 22, 2015 8:59 pm

Wow this is terrible. Of all places the plane could have crashed it happened to be on that one packed road with tons of cars and pedestrians everywhere. RIP

Aesma · Sat Aug 22, 2015 9:12 pm

I watched the video knowing it would crash (not knowing how), and found it to be too low from the start. I don't think I've ever seen a loop performed from such a low altitude. Some kind of Immelman turn would have been better advised.

G-CIVP · Sat Aug 22, 2015 9:14 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 24):
yet, if the investigation recommends changes to airshows, in particular smaller ones like Shoreham, that some might call 'nanny state', then so be it.

I suspect there will be changes to UK Airshows. There does come a point where you can not continue to fly vintage jets as the likelihood for an accident increases as the airframes and components therein age. For instance, a vintage Spitfire crash landed at Biggin Hill in August. A brief read of the news articles suggest that the aircraft lost power, which in turn suggests mechanical failure. I'm suggesting we stop flying these jets forthwith but there does come a point where you have to be prudent.

winterlight · Sat Aug 22, 2015 9:17 pm

Vulcan looks a cert to be grounded now.

F9Animal · Sat Aug 22, 2015 9:20 pm

Is it me, or does it look like the right wing stalled? It doesn't look right after he attempts to level, the right wing appears to be sluggish. I would assume he had enough airspeed to not stall, but..... It just looks sickening.

Rest in peace to those lost.

TedToToe · Sat Aug 22, 2015 10:06 pm

Quoting G-CIVP (Reply 41):
I suspect there will be changes to UK Airshows. There does come a point where you can not continue to fly vintage jets as the likelihood for an accident increases as the airframes and components therein age.

Aerobatics in a 50 year old airframe? I agree, the risk of mechanical failure, especially if g forces are involved, is too great!

Speedbird555 · Sat Aug 22, 2015 10:30 pm

larshjort · Sat Aug 22, 2015 10:43 pm

Quoting winterlight (Reply 42):
Vulcan looks a cert to be grounded now.

XH558 is on it last season anyway. Last show is scheduled for September 26th. Hopefully they won't ground it before that.

Quoting TedToToe (Reply 44):

Aerobatics in a 50 year old airframe? I agree, the risk of mechanical failure, especially if g forces are involved, is too great!

How is the risk for mechanical failure higher in a well maintained 50 year old frame operating well within design specifications compared to a a well maintained 35 year old frontline fighter doing the same stuff?

FredrikHAD · Sat Aug 22, 2015 10:55 pm

This is the site of the crash:

https://www.google.se/maps/@50.8414746,-0.2964474,3a,15y,84.55h,89.41t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s8xwil-lhedrPdMZCUHvH8Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

There's a dome camera on the rightmost pole (with a traffic light covered in orange plastic) with quite a story to tell...

The aircraft came in over the River Adur, southbound and just east of A283. If it hadn't crashed, it would have swept over the airport area, just west of, and paralell with, rwy 20 after the loop at minimum altitude. From a safety point of view, that may no be too well planned. I was also at an airshow today (AGH) with Swedish Gripen and SK-60 as well as a Spitfire showing off. Displays here are a bit more boring with the extra safety distances, but I think UK needs to follow. It appears that even if the loop had ended as planned, the Hunter would have been very low and headed for the crowd. Perhaps hitting these cars, as horrific as that is, may have saved us from an even worse disaster had it reached the airfield crowded with people.

The heat on the crash site must have been massive. I do hope nobody was burnt too badly there.

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 43):
does it look like the right wing stalled?

The left wing drops 2 sec before the crash, but recovers, or is this where you feel the right wing stalls? In the pic in reply 30, you can see the angle of attack by looking at the rear of the right drop tank (trailing condensation). I measure 13 degrees (may not be very accurate) and that's high for a first gen jet fighter I guess.

Quoting TedToToe (Reply 44):
Aerobatics in a 50 year old airframe?

Well, we see even older ones on every other show. I think we can still get to see them, but manouvers can be designed to pose much less of a risk.

G-CIVP · Sat Aug 22, 2015 11:18 pm

Quoting larshjort (Reply 46):
How is the risk for mechanical failure higher in a well maintained 50 year old frame operating well within design specifications compared to a a well maintained 35 year old frontline fighter doing the same stuff?

On two fronts; one, sheer wear and tear on mechanical parts. Replacement parts are difficult to source, so existing parts are maintained to the edge or beyond their expected useful life. Second, the electrical wiring and looms. As an aircraft ages, so does the wiring. It becomes more brittle and susceptible to shorting. By way of analogy, anyone with an automobile knows it is easier to maintain a factory fresh car such as a Smart ForFour rather than say a Ford Anglica built in the 1960's.

This said, and I am speculating (sic), I would say this accident is due to pilot error rather than mechanical failure. However, as there has been more accidents with aged aircraft of late, I won't be surprised if the CAA starts pulling air worthiness certificates or comes out with revised guidelines for display aircraft.

[Edited 2015-08-22 16:20:25]

awthompson · Sat Aug 22, 2015 11:20 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 40):

I watched the video knowing it would crash (not knowing how), and found it to be too low from the start. I don't think I've ever seen a loop performed from such a low altitude. Some kind of Immelman turn would have been better advised.

I felt that from the start also. I think that it is highly risky to pull into a loop from such low altitude, especially on an older less powerful aircraft. Fine in a Eurofighter Typhoon or something with a much higher power to weight ratio and extreme manoeuverability.

This guy had virtually no margin of error. If he had a power loss (only speculation), then he would have had no chance of recovery from that altitude. On the power loss point, from study of videos and photographs, the engine does appear to have a normal exhaust plume before impact suggesting engine was producing thrust, whether or not full commanded thrust it is impossible to tell. On one of the videos, aircraft sound does though appear normal during the pull out from the dive.

As I have stated in my earlier comment, I think he simply stalled by pulling slightly too hard as the ground approached, and did not have sufficient altitude to recover.

Life is far too precious to be taking that level of risk on an old aircraft, never mind the fact that he has also destroyed a warbird that had its first flight in July 1955 and has come through war situations, fire damage on one occasion, and survived to ultimately be destroyed in a 'stunt'. I hope I'm not being too hard here, but this is the reality of the situation.

I do hope that the pilot, apparently a British Airways Captain does pull through.

GDB · Sat Aug 22, 2015 11:25 pm

Quoting winterlight (Reply 42):
Vulcan looks a cert to be grounded now.

This is it's final season anyway but not for any reasons to do with any reaction to this event, rather engineering ones.

Inevitably people are going to ask questions about what in this case is a 60 year old aircraft doing aerobatics, even if it's well maintained.
The Hunter was a very robustly built aircraft but there also all the systems, including engines, which has also been the ticking clock on the Vulcan.

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