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mpgunner
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Scrapped C-130J Ghostrider

Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:02 pm

Wow - this must have been an experience for the crew.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/ghostrider-gunship-scrapped-after-inverted-flight-sc-419208/

Is everyone in the back strapped in? Being inverted with all of the gear/weapons and ammo sounds crazy.
 
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kanban
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RE: Scrapped C-130J Ghostrider

Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:56 pm

 
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moo
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RE: Scrapped C-130J Ghostrider

Tue Nov 17, 2015 7:40 pm

Ouch, written off in one flight before it even saw operational service! That pilot probably got a few nasty looks...
 
mpgunner
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RE: Scrapped C-130J Ghostrider

Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:22 pm

Quoting kanban (Reply 1):
remove the "s" following the http when posting

Thanks. I missed that.
 
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ssteve
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RE: Scrapped C-130J Ghostrider

Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:28 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 2):
Ouch, written off in one flight before it even saw operational service! That pilot probably got a few nasty looks...

It's a jobs creation program. The modern version of digging holes and filling them up.
 
Ozair
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RE: Scrapped C-130J Ghostrider

Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:06 pm

Quoting SSTeve (Reply 4):
It's a jobs creation program. The modern version of digging holes and filling them up.

That makes no sense whatsoever.

Why would an incident on a test flight, conducted by the USAF 413th Test Flight Squadron, be a jobs creation program? It wasn't LM testing the aircraft but the USAF. I have no doubt if LM had been at the controls when this happened they would have been liable for the loss.
 
rlwynn
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RE: Scrapped C-130J Ghostrider

Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:11 pm

Quoting Ozair (Reply 5):

That makes no sense whatsoever.

Why would an incident on a test flight, conducted by the USAF 413th Test Flight Squadron, be a jobs creation program? It wasn't LM testing the aircraft but the USAF. I have no doubt if LM had been at the controls when this happened they would have been liable for the loss.

Because now LM gets to make a replacement. And workers have more work.
 
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ssteve
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RE: Scrapped C-130J Ghostrider

Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:11 pm

Quoting Ozair (Reply 5):
That makes no sense whatsoever.

It was a joke. I know the political a**hats around here make you suspect that every comment remotely involving the guvmint is a throwaway paean to rightwing opinions about how the gubmint is guaranteed to turn gold into lead, but it was just a joke.

Or maybe I was implying a vast conspiracy to buy this frame and immediately total it. You be the judge...
 
Ozair
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RE: Scrapped C-130J Ghostrider

Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:33 pm

Quoting SSTeve (Reply 7):
It was a joke.

My apologies, thanks for the clarification.
 
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ssteve
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RE: Scrapped C-130J Ghostrider

Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:44 am

Quoting Ozair (Reply 8):
My apologies, thanks for the clarification.

In light of how political some threads are getting because of all that's happening in the world, I'm aware there are a lot of political cheapshots being thrown about. In hindsight, probably not a good time for joking.
 
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Moose135
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RE: Scrapped C-130J Ghostrider

Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:56 am

Quoting mpgunner (Thread starter):
Is everyone in the back strapped in? Being inverted with all of the gear/weapons and ammo sounds crazy.

Since they were conducting flight test operations, I imagine they only had required test crew on board, and everyone was strapped in. Probably not carrying weapons/ammo or much extraneous gear either.
 
mpgunner
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RE: Scrapped C-130J Ghostrider

Wed Nov 18, 2015 5:22 am

Quoting Moose135 (Reply 10):
Since they were conducting flight test operations, I imagine they only had required test crew on board, and everyone was strapped in. Probably not carrying weapons/ammo or much extraneous gear either.

I agree that this was probably the case. Yet, you have to admit, when they landed they were pretty happy, right?

"What just happened"....
 
ThePointblank
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RE: Scrapped C-130J Ghostrider

Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:18 am

This airframe won't be a complete total loss; it will get parted out for anything useful and salvageable. And since it was pretty much brand new, there's a lot of stuff they can take off and use on other Herc's.

Quoting Moose135 (Reply 10):
Since they were conducting flight test operations, I imagine they only had required test crew on board, and everyone was strapped in. Probably not carrying weapons/ammo or much extraneous gear either.

AC-130's usually fly pretty heavily loaded because of all of the gear and weapons they carry. And they also land very close to their maximum landing weights as well; the loaded weight without fuel for an AC-130 not that far away from the maximum landing weight for a C-130.
 
thegman
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RE: Scrapped C-130J Ghostrider

Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:14 pm

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 12):
AC-130's usually fly pretty heavily loaded because of all of the gear and weapons they carry. And they also land very close to their maximum landing weights as well; the loaded weight without fuel for an AC-130 not that far away from the maximum landing weight for a C-130.

C-130s have that much of a difference in MTOW and MLW? I find it surprising because the C-17 MLW (3/4 flap) is MTOW.

I'll ask one of my bros in those about that.
 
ThePointblank
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RE: Scrapped C-130J Ghostrider

Sun Jun 05, 2016 4:40 am

Initial investigation report is in:

http://www.defensenews.com/story/mil...nt-made-ac-130j-unusable/85316098/

A lack of flight test data is partially to blame for the mishap that lead to a virtually brand new AC-130J to be scrapped. Actual cause was the pilot pushing the rudder too far while performing a sideslip during a test to determine flight control limits, and then didn’t apply enough pressure to the rudder to stop the plane from rotating once it started to go out of control. Had the pilot had the flight test data, he might have had a better idea of when control of the plane would be lost.

The reason why they didn't have the flight test data? It was never provided by Lockheed Martin as its technically proprietary information. And LM didn't want to provide it without a contract, and the USAF never bought it.

The main issue is that for most military aircraft, the military and the contractor work together to develop the aircraft, and access to the flight test data is written in as part of the agreement. However, the C-130 airframe was developed by LM commercially.

The US military didn't have a hand in development of the aircraft, while LM performed and paid for the engineering and tests to develop data on the flight envelop of the aircraft and its acceptable safety limits, which became LM proprietary data. When the Air Force started procuring C-130Js and associated variants, they did not procure the proprietary data rights; in fact, this test flight was part of a USAF program to develop it's own flight test data for the AC-130J.
 
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Spacepope
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RE: Scrapped C-130J Ghostrider

Sun Jun 05, 2016 6:10 pm

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 14):
When the Air Force started procuring C-130Js and associated variants, they did not procure the proprietary data rights; in fact, this test flight was part of a USAF program to develop it's own flight test data for the AC-130J.

So what the incident report is saying, is that the accident was caused because the USAF didn't have the data that they were trying to get by doing the flight that had the accident in the first place. It could have been avoided by either purchasing data or having a prescient vision.
 
zanl188
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RE: Scrapped C-130J Ghostrider

Sun Jun 05, 2016 9:13 pm

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 15):

I read it as Air Force didn't want to buy the data for the slick C-130J, but was running the test on the gunship variant.
 
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litz
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RE: Scrapped C-130J Ghostrider

Wed Jun 08, 2016 7:26 pm

This brings up an interesting question ... which is cheaper :

1) buying the data in question
2) buying a replacement airplane
 
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ssteve
Posts: 1509
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:32 am

RE: Scrapped C-130J Ghostrider

Fri Jun 10, 2016 4:41 pm

Quoting litz (Reply 17):

1) buying the data in question
2) buying a replacement airplane

#2 may be easier to get in the budget...
 
ThePointblank
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RE: Scrapped C-130J Ghostrider

Sat Jun 11, 2016 2:14 am

Quoting litz (Reply 17):
This brings up an interesting question ... which is cheaper :

1) buying the data in question
2) buying a replacement airplane

I think what was unusual in this case was that in the C-130J, the aircraft wasn't originally developed for the USAF, as it was developed commercially for export (launch customer was the RAF). As the article mentioned, if the USAF has the aircraft developed for them, the data rights are included in the contract for the development. But as the USAF was buying the aircraft Mil-COTS, it was only an option.

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