Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

LGAviation · Tue Nov 24, 2015 8:39 am

Western and Russian media are reporting that the Turkish shot down a fighter jet that violated their airspace near the Turkish border. Russia today affirms this news, although their article claims that a Russian jet was shot down in Syria and not Turkey obviously.

LMP737 · Tue Nov 24, 2015 8:59 am

Looking at the video I would say the plane in question is a member of the MIG-23/27 family

[Edited 2015-11-24 01:12:42]

agill · Tue Nov 24, 2015 9:01 am

According to some media it's a SU-24

LMP737 · Tue Nov 24, 2015 9:03 am

Just read that. And it does look like an SU-24 come to think of it. This is going to get ugly.

TheSonntag · Tue Nov 24, 2015 9:09 am

Crisis diplomacy required now.

Maybe Turkey was unhappy that France was trying to form an alliance between Russia and the West against Isis.

LMP737 · Tue Nov 24, 2015 9:31 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 4):
Maybe Turkey was unhappy that France was trying to form an alliance between Russia and the West against Isis.

I'm going to say the Turks were on edge from recent incidents of their aircraft being locked up on radar near the border.

TheSonntag · Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:07 am

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 5):
I'm going to say the Turks were on edge from recent incidents of their aircraft being locked up on radar near the border.

Be it as it may be, I just hope they get it sorted out. I just hope the pilots survived both without bad injuries, this could help to resolve this issue quickly.

mig21umd · Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:08 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 4):
Maybe Turkey was unhappy that France was trying to form an alliance between Russia and the West against Isis.

Turkey is just unhappy that Russia has intervened in Syria period.

Remember they don't have a history of friendship and you can argue that the only reason Russia is in Syria in what is really only a symbolic force is to protect their own interest and at the same time limits or block Turkey from extending its own sphere of interests into Syria.

larshjort · Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:10 am

According to Danish radio P1 quoting turkish officials the russian aircraft was warned ten times over a five minute period.

mig21umd · Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:11 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 6):
Be it as it may be, I just hope they get it sorted out. I just hope the pilots survived both without bad injuries, this could help to resolve this issue quickly.

Apparently the pilots landed on the Syrian side of the border. Lets just hope that they landed in 'friendly territory'.

dfwjim1 · Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:12 am

The Russian plane was warned 10 times that it was in Turkish airspace before it was shot down. The Russians keep pushing
the envelope so eventually something like this was going to happen. Congratulations to Turkey for having the balls to stand
up to Russia.

SAS A340 · Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:29 am

Don´t think that Russia will make such a big deal out of this... there will some hard words and then it,s over. Some says that this is the first time since 1949 that a Nato country had shot down a Russian fighterplane...?

Heavierthanair · Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:30 am

G'day

Cover up in full swing it seems

Quote:

the Russian Defense Ministry said that the Russian Su-24 Fencer attack jet crashed in Syria "as most likely a result of a strike from the ground

Unquote:

http://sputniknews.com/middleeast/20...124/1030643631/nato-statement.html

Cheers

Peter

TheSonntag · Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:38 am

Quoting dfwjim1 (Reply 10):
The Russian plane was warned 10 times that it was in Turkish airspace before it was shot down. The Russians keep pushing
the envelope so eventually something like this was going to happen. Congratulations to Turkey for having the balls to stand
up to Russia.

Well, Turkey claims the plane was warned 10 times. Whether this is true, we do not know. We do not know, either, whether the plane was on the Syrian side of the border when being warned, and whether the warning was really issued.

Not that it would surprise me. The US flying with pure A-A loadouts of F-15Cs tells you something, but still. But a fact remains, Turkey has a very debatable agenda towards ISIS at the moment.

Not that I am defending the russians and Putin here. But this is a very dangerous situation, and certainly everyone ought to keep calm.

pvjin · Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:50 am

Quoting dfwjim1 (Reply 10):
The Russian plane was warned 10 times that it was in Turkish airspace before it was shot down. The Russians keep pushing
the envelope so eventually something like this was going to happen. Congratulations to Turkey for having the balls to stand
up to Russia.

Now if Turkey only had the balls to stand up against ISIS. But not going to happen with Erdogan in power, he's an ISIS sympathizer himself.

BlueSky1976 · Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:21 am

Quoting LGAviation (Thread starter):
Western and Russian media are reporting that the Turkish shot down a fighter jet that violated their airspace near the Turkish border.

Good.
I'm glad Turkish have finally did that, given the number of their previous Turkish airspace violations. I hope Russians have learned their lesson.

Quoting dfwjim1 (Reply 10):
Congratulations to Turkey for having the balls to stand
up to Russia.

+1.

[Edited 2015-11-24 03:26:02]

moo · Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:26 am

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 16):
Good.
I'm glad Turkish have finally did that, given the number of their previous Turkish airspace violations. I hope Russians have learned their lesson.

Considering the Turks lost an F-4 to Syrian air defence several years ago, as well as violating Syrian airspace on many occasions, including putting boots on the ground more than once, I'm not exactly sure they can profess to hold the high ground here...

scbriml · Tue Nov 24, 2015 12:42 pm

Quoting Heavierthanair (Reply 12):
the Russian Defense Ministry said that the Russian Su-24 Fencer attack jet crashed in Syria "as most likely a result of a strike from the ground

Well, they would say that, wouldn't they?

One of the pilots is reported as dead.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-34907983

Quote:
A spokesman for a rebel group operating in the area, the 10th Brigade of the Coast, told the Associated Press that the jet's crew had tried to parachute into government-held territory, but that they came under fire from members of the group.

One of them was dead when he landed on the ground, he added. The fate of the second was not immediately known.

flyingturtle · Tue Nov 24, 2015 12:52 pm

Russia supports Assad, Turkey supports Daesh (thou shalt not call a bunch of murderers "State") - so when Turkey and Russia fight each other, there can only be winners...

Interesting development, though.

David

moo · Tue Nov 24, 2015 12:56 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 19):
Russia supports Assad, Turkey supports Daesh (thou shalt not call a bunch of murderers "State") - so when Turkey and Russia fight each other, there can only be winners...

Turkey is also demanding Russia stop bombing Turkmen villages in Syria.

Someone is going to overstep their mark here, and then it will get really interesting...

Acheron · Tue Nov 24, 2015 1:36 pm

Turkey at this point is pretty much in bed with Al-Nusra and ISIS. Most of the weapons and money to both groups flow through Turkish borders.

And it became obvious when Turkey handed over "PKK fighters" which actually were YPG fighters to Al-Nusra to be tortured.

Russians should do the same. Next time a turkish plane, soldier or tank decides to venture to the wrong side of the border, neutralize them with extreme prejudice.

vishaljo · Tue Nov 24, 2015 1:41 pm

Quote:
WikiLeaks ‏@wikileaks
Turkey's military releases 'radar track' of downed Russian jet clipping Turkish land "nose"

scbriml · Tue Nov 24, 2015 2:43 pm

Didn't take Vlad long...

Quote:
He described it as a "stab in the back" committed by "accomplices of terrorists".

Turkey says its jets shot at the plane after warning that it was violating Turkish airspace. But Moscow says it never strayed from Syrian airspace.

sturmovik · Tue Nov 24, 2015 2:50 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 21):
Russians should do the same. Next time a turkish plane, soldier or tank decides to venture to the wrong side of the border, neutralize them with extreme prejudice.

It's also quite telling that the Turks went immediately to NATO, even before talking to the Russians after the shootdown. Things could get quite interesting.

Acheron · Tue Nov 24, 2015 2:58 pm

Turkey's allies in the area executed both pilots. One of them as it was descending in its parachute.

curlyheadboy · Tue Nov 24, 2015 2:59 pm

Interesting incident also on the "aviation side" of the matter. The Su-24 can't stand a chance close range against an F-16, still I think it's interesting what distance from the target they engaged, and what weapon. From the pictures looks like the Reds fighter is leaking fuel big time, AIM-9 or AIM -120? Any guess?

tu204 · Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:00 pm

This was not unexpected.
Maybe Turkey was retalliating for Russian Forces bombing an ISIS oil convoy and refining facilities last week?
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/russian-...last-isis-oil-facilities-in-syria/
Gotta protect your friends that bring you presents, you know?

Not sure that Turkey calculated the consequences of these actions.

OV735 · Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:10 pm

Russia has a long history of - either intentionally or by accident - violating other countries' airspaces. It is only logical that they'd get stung at some point down the line.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 21):
Russians should do the same. Next time a turkish plane, soldier or tank decides to venture to the wrong side of the border, neutralize them with extreme prejudice.

Considering that these countries don't even have a common border, I highly doubt a Turkish aircraft of tank would wander into Russia...

INFINITI329 · Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:14 pm

This bad, very very bad. Turkey may just stepped into a world of sh*t. If those pilots are not alive, the russian people will want blood and I don't blame them

FlyingSicilian · Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:15 pm

Quoting tu204 (Reply 26):
Not sure that Turkey calculated the consequences of these actions.

Next time, the Russians might not be so dumb as to violate another country's airspace.

moo · Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:20 pm

Quoting OV735 (Reply 27):
Considering that these countries don't even have a common border, I highly doubt a Turkish aircraft of tank would wander into Russia...

Russia is in Syria by the request and permission of Assad - therefore its not outside possibility that they also take on the air defence role for Assad as well.

Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 29):
Next time, the Russians might not be so dumb as to violate another country's airspace.

Yeah, the Turks can talk... putting hundreds of soldiers into Syria in February this year to secure the remains of Suleyman Shah, complete with tanks and air cover.

Acheron · Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:28 pm

Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 29):
Next time, the Russians might not be so dumb as to violate another country's airspace.

Maybe Greece should start to shoot down Turkey's aircraft then, or Iraq should do the same. Or all those countries that have had their airspace violated by NATO aircraft.

But then again, I bet you'd whine about it.

mpgunner · Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:34 pm

But those F-16's are still nice, right? A truly amazing plane that will keep flying for a long time.

fallap · Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:41 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 24):

Turkey's allies in the area executed both pilots. One of them as it was descending in its parachute.

Could you please produce a source for that statement?

Acheron · Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:46 pm

Quoting Fallap (Reply 33):
Could you please produce a source for that statement?

Volume warning

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6ae_1448377068

LGAviation · Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:49 pm

With recent Russian operations in or near NATO airspace it had to happen at one point and maybe it's not the worst that Turkey and for instance not Estonia did it. Anyways, let's hope that it does not escalate. It might get really tricky if the Russians were tasked by the Syrians to defend Syrian airspace and to shoot down foreign airplanes over Syrian territory which is not out of question considering the warm relations between Mr Putin's Russia and the Syrian Assad regime

bikerthai · Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:54 pm

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 28):
If those pilots are not alive, the russian people will want blood and I don't blame them

At least one is dead. Does the Russian people care more about their pilots than their grunts? They showed no interests of their dead coming back from Ukraine.

Quoting Fallap (Reply 33):
Could you please produce a source for that statement?

Shooting at pilots when they are descending from parachutes is not quite execution, but pretty close. Make me think of that movie "A Bridge To Far" when the Polish Brigade dropped into a contested landing zone and got bloodied.

bt

LAXintl · Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:54 pm

Not surprising at all.

Turkey has experienced daily air space violations. Russia even in early October admitted such violations calling them "mistakes" and promised they would not happen again, yet continued day after day.

NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg after these incidents said such Russian actions were "unacceptable violations of Turkish air space and international law."

NATO statement from October 5th:
"Allies strongly protest these violations of Turkish sovereign airspace, and condemn these incursions into and violations of NATO airspace."
"Allies also note the extreme danger of such irresponsible behavior. They call on the Russian Federation to cease and desist, and immediately explain these violations."

US Secretary of State John Kerry also said that the US was “greatly concerned” by the Russian incursion into Turkey.
"We are greatly concerned about it because it is precisely the kind of thing that, had Turkey responded ... it could have resulted in a shoot down, and it is precisely the kind of thing we warned Russia against."

There you go Russia. Keep playing with fire daily and sooner or later you'll get burned.

Quoting moo (Reply 30):
Yeah, the Turks can talk... putting hundreds of soldiers into Syria in February this year to secure the remains of Suleyman Shah, complete with tanks and air cover.

Fully within Turkey's legal rights.

Treaty of Ankara from 1921 and Treaty of Lausanne in 1923 state that the tomb of Suleyman Shah "shall remain, with its appurtenances, the property of Turkey", who are appointed guardians for it. As such there have always been a garrison of Turkish solders based at the tomb.
In additional the updated 2003 protocol between Turkey and Syria gives Turkey free transit rights to the Tomb through Syrian territory in order to access and maintain it.

Acheron · Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:59 pm

Then Syria, Iraq and Russia should start shooting down any Turkish jet providing air support to al-nusra and other islamist forces.

Same for Greece. Move some S300 batteries closer to Cyprus and see how Turkey likes it.

bikerthai · Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:59 pm

Quoting LGAviation (Reply 35):
It might get really tricky if the Russians were tasked by the Syrians to defend Syrian airspace and to shoot down foreign airplanes over Syrian

By now everyone will agree that Syria in a civil war and the airspace is now contested. So if you are flying in Syrian airspace, fly at your own risk, whether you are defending Assad, the Kurds or ISIS.

bt

LGAviation · Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:05 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 39):

Quoting LGAviation (Reply 35):
It might get really tricky if the Russians were tasked by the Syrians to defend Syrian airspace and to shoot down foreign airplanes over Syrian

By now everyone will agree that Syria in a civil war and the airspace is now contested. So if you are flying in Syrian airspace, fly at your own risk, whether you are defending Assad, the Kurds or ISIS.

Just saying that the situation might get even more heated up in such a scenario. And forgive me, I'm coming from a legal background, but what you're saying is almost entirely true with possibly only Russia and the Assad government claiming that the Assad government is still again at least legally in charge of Syrian airspace.

AYVN · Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:10 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 36):
Shooting at pilots when they are descending from parachutes is not quite execution, but pretty close. Make me think of that movie "A Bridge To Far" when the Polish Brigade dropped into a contested landing zone and got bloodied.

If reports are true this quote from wiki pretty much classifies what happened to these Russians as war crime unlike what happened in the film where legimate targets were attacked:

"Modern laws of war, specifically within Protocol I additional to the 1949 Geneva Conventions, prohibits attacking persons parachuting from an aircraft in distress regardless of what territory they are over. Once they land in territory controlled by the enemy, they must be given an opportunity to surrender before being attacked unless it is apparent that they are engaging in a hostile act or attempting to escape. This prohibition does not apply to the dropping of airborne troops, special forces, commandos, spies, saboteurs, liaison officers, and intelligence agents. Thus, such personnel descending by parachutes are legitimate targets and, therefore, may be attacked, even if their aircraft is in distress."

mercure1 · Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:14 pm

Are we shocked? This was bound to happen as the Russian continue to act as if they have carte blanche to operate via Turkish airspace.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 26):
Not sure that Turkey calculated the consequences of these actions.

I see it the other way. Its the Russia failed to properly calculate its cost of getting involved in Syria and their blind support for a terrible dictator that should have gone a long time ago.

If things like economic sanctions are not bad, and Putin being outcast among world leaders, their continued actions in Syria will only make them look even more cast aside.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 31):
Maybe Greece should start to shoot down Turkey's aircraft then, or Iraq should do the same. Or all those countries that have had their airspace violated by NATO aircraft.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 38):
Same for Greece. Move some S300 batteries closer to Cyprus and see how Turkey likes it.

Nonsense.

bikerthai · Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:18 pm

Quoting LGAviation (Reply 40):
And forgive me, I'm coming from a legal background,

As we have seen with this conflict, war crime is being committed on all sides. Shooting a couple of pilots dangling from parachutes may be unlawful but not as egregious as barrel bombing or chemical agent attacks.

Quoting AYVN (Reply 41):

If reports are true this quote from wiki pretty much classifies what happened to these Russians as war crime unlike what happened in the film where legimate targets were attacked:

Just commenting about the visual image. If I was to comment on similarity, I would probably reference the U.S. pilots shot down over Vietnam.

But in the strict sense, do we defined a pilot (a combatant) as a POW before of after the parachute hits the ground?

bt

Acheron · Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:20 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 42):
I see it the other way. Its the Russia failed to properly calculate its cost of getting involved in Syria and their blind support for a terrible dictator that should have gone a long time ago.

If we are going to talk about support for dictators that should have been gone long ago, NATO has the record for that.

Not to mention you have a NATO member openly supporting terrorism and making a mockery of Paris attack's victims.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 42):
Nonsense.

Sure thing...

Cyprus president is talking about allowing the Russians to have a base in the Island.

pvjin · Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:28 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 42):
I see it the other way. Its the Russia failed to properly calculate its cost of getting involved in Syria and their blind support for a terrible dictator that should have gone a long time ago.

Why should Assad go? Are Libya and Iraq now better than they were under rule of two similar dictators? I don't think so.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 42):
If things like economic sanctions are not bad, and Putin being outcast among world leaders, their continued actions in Syria will only make them look even more cast aside.

Yeah, perhaps Putin should start licking boots of the Uncle Sam by buying American weaponry like the dictator of Saudi Arabia does, then he wouldn't be an outcast anymore.

Why is it okay for the west to support cruel authoritarian dictators in Middle East while it's not okay for Russia to do the same? What's the logic?

bhill · Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:40 pm

Errr....pretty sure that the rebels do not subscribe to the Geneva Accords...but if Turkish troops shot at these pilots....dumb..very dumb.

mercure1 · Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:45 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 45):
Why is it okay for the west to support cruel authoritarian dictators in Middle East while it's not okay for Russia to do the same? What's the logic?

I don't say its OK either way. But Russia has picked a terrible partner to back one that has killed and displaced millions of his own people. That is truly a crime against humanity.

I assume Russia probably at end has no love for Assad either but its a geopolitical play. Russia has no place in the Middle East as they have lost all client states after the cold war and are desperate to keep their presence via only remaining Syrian toe hold.

So they place a big gamble to retain this presence but I see it as being extremely costly in long run. For example the continued burning bridges with West, and now even more with Turkey. Russia has huge trade with Turkey. Is it worth hurting this and with other nations merely for Assad and military base in Latakia?

But as far as the shoot down today, I cant say it was a surprise. Russia should not act surprised either as they have even apologized to Turkey before such violations, but after some time their lack of compliance with own promises cost them a SU-24

pvjin · Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:46 pm

Quoting bhill (Reply 46):
Errr....pretty sure that the rebels do not subscribe to the Geneva Accords...but if Turkish troops shot at these pilots....dumb..very dumb.

Sounds like rebels based on the amount of "Allahu Akbars" that we can hear on the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5g60o_O08U

Russia and west alike should start bombing/shooting anything that shouts "Allahu Akbar", has a beard and a gun.

tu204 · Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:57 pm

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...?mod=related&channelName=worldNews

Well Turkey seems to think that the pilots are alive and reportedly seeking their release. Guess they realized the mess they are getting into and trying to minimize what is going to happen.

If the pilots were alive after ejecting and are now dead, this would be something that particular gang of the Syrian "opposition" is going to start regretting very shortly.

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