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neutronstar73
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:50 am

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 95):
Your analogy would be more accurate if the trespassers were heading toward a gang fight with weapons and constantly crossing your property . . . The stakes are much higher when weapons are involved.

Well, yes, I forgot to add that part. But true...
 
apfpilot
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:16 am

Quoting Acheron (Reply 88):
You can't warn anyone about a violation they haven't comited yet just because you think they might

Of course you can. If someone looks like a mugger for example, you can say: if you mug me I will shoot you. Of course you run the risk of running afoul of laws against menacing but that is neither here nor there. That is what Turkey did, they said if you violate our airspace we will take action. Russia violated their airspace and they took action.
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trex8
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:37 am

Would those warnings be in Russian, Turkish, English????
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:39 am

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 85):
Turkey isn't supplying Syrian Kurds, they fighting Kurds and buying oil from ISIL as well as allegedly supplying them with weapons in payment for the oil. If I was France I'd be asking Turkey WTF are you doing and requesting their suspension from NATO.

Turkey (or better the Erdogan government) has good relations with the Iraqi Kurds of the KRG in Erbil. Theseare basically two highly corrupt family clans (normally rivals, but currently united against a common enemy), who don't mind coming under Erdogan's neo-Ottoman umbrella.
Turkey on the other hand is fighting the communist Kurdish PKK and it's Syrian branch, the YPG. These two groups are on one hand quite effective fighters, but also want to create a communist (some say Stalinist) Kurdish state in parts of Syria and Turkey. The YPG and the Pershmerga, the troops of the Erbil government, get supported by the West, as they are the only effective forces fighting the Daesh.

Erdogan is an Islamist and autocrat himself and dreams of a conservative Sunni recreation of the Ottoman empire under his rule and he hates Assad (who is a Shi'ite, though a rather secular one, in a predominantly Sunni country).
The Daesh's main source of income is smuggling oil across the border to turkey. Turkey profits from this as it gets cheap oil. NATO ops interrupt this profitable business.
Erdogan might not be a friend of the Daesh, but he hates the Communist Kurds and Assad's Shi'ites more, especially as Assad gets supported by his regional rival Iran. Most religious minorities in Syria (like Christians and Druses) generally support Assad, as he is religiously relatively tolerant (Meaning that as long as he and his cronies make money, they don't care about their people's religion). The majority of the Arab Sunni tribes (more or less moderate rebels) on the other hand wants to get rid of the minorities.
The Turkmen rebels against Assad close to the border to Turkey have been receiving special protection by Turkey for quite a while due to their ethnic closeness.

Jan

[Edited 2015-11-24 19:43:08]
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LAXintl
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:45 am

Quoting trex8 (Reply 102):
Would those warnings be in Russian, Turkish, English????

Transmitted in English on international guard frequencies.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
1g
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:51 am

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 18):
Daesh (thou shalt not call a bunch of murderers "State")

Daesh is LITERALLY ISIS in Arabic. You're just calling them 'state' in Arabic.

Quoting trex8 (Reply 102):

Probably English.

As for the downing of the Russian jet. I don't think any country would take lightly to an aircraft violating its airspace after being warned 10 times over a period of five minutes. Especially when the two countries you are bordering are in a total state of civil war.
 
mig21umd
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 4:04 am

Quoting neutronstar73 (Reply 84):
Yes, Turkey could have simply attempted to escort the aircraft out, but as of now, we don't know the extent of why they went kinetic instead of a passive response. Perhaps there is more that both sides aren't saying, but I would have to believe something else happened that set the Turks off to go hot on this intercept.

Does anyone know if Russia has or had been bombing the Turkmen or if the Syrian AF has in the past? The flight path could have looked like it was an attack on the Turkish ethnic minority so Turkey responded.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 85):
Turkey isn't supplying Syrian Kurds, they fighting Kurds and buying oil from ISIL as well as allegedly supplying them with weapons in payment for the oil. If I was France I'd be asking Turkey WTF are you doing and requesting their suspension from NATO.

Turkey is a very important NATO member and although 'democratic' it is a very corrupt society. In these types of societies you would be considered stupid if you weren't buying a resource at a major discounted price no matter who the source is. What the Turkish government is doing to stop this or if they have the appetite to is the question.
Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you long to return
 
Ozair
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 4:17 am

Quoting mig21umd (Reply 106):
Does anyone know if Russia has or had been bombing the Turkmen or if the Syrian AF has in the past? The flight path could have looked like it was an attack on the Turkish ethnic minority so Turkey responded.

I doubt they were flying in the area for fun nor to directly antagonize the Turks.
 
ThePointblank
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 4:29 am

Quoting Ozair (Reply 107):

I doubt they were flying in the area for fun nor to directly antagonize the Turks.

Also depends on how accurate Russian navigation systems are; it is unlikely they would be using GPS, but GLONASS, which isn't as accurate especially in the Middle East due to the constellation configuration of satellites Russia has already put up.
 
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SAS A340
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 5:57 am

Quoting trex8 (Reply 102):
Would those warnings be in Russian, Turkish, English????

Not important, communication to Russian fighters are usually "one-way" and met mostly with silence and ignorance.
  
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seahawk
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 6:01 am

Just escort future bombing strikes up North with SU-30s.
 
mandala499
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 7:42 am

Quoting Acheron (Reply 69):
And if they entered UK airspace you wouldn't shot them down, you just would escort them out.

Which category of airspace? UK has sovereign airspace, managed airspace, and ADIZ. Sovereign airspace is equal to sovereign territory, this is only 12 nautival miles from coastlines. Outside ADIZ, airplanes have the right to be there for whatever reasons. Insidean ADIZ, the right of innocent passage apply. You can escort if you want, and you can warn them if they don't show innocent intentions. However you cannot shoot down unless they clearly show bad intentions. Those escorts by RAF occur outside UK territorial airspace. If within territorial airspace, UK has every right to shoot foreign military aircraft without permission to be in UK terrtitory. With civilian aircraft, you can shoot them down if they are illegally within your sovereign airspace, but it is adbisable to force them down or escort to exit. However, signs of bad intention (including intentional ignorance of communications) can lead to a shootdown.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 71):
I'd like to see the legal validity of that under international law. Otherwise nothing stops the Russian of doing the same thing now and shooting down any turkish jet that ventures too close to the Moskva

Turkish military or civilian jets? Do they carry entry and/or overfly permits? If they do, you can't 'just shoot them down'.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 88):
That is not how it works. Otherwise I get to shoot you if I think you are going to rob me just because you happened to walk infront of my house and look like a mugger.

I can warn you while you are outside my house and my house's fence. Once you enter without permission after being warned (warning can occur outside territory), then you are tresspassing, therefore I can shoot you.
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
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mad99
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:02 am

The USA wants a new government in Syria and Russia does not. I'm sure this was discussed between Turkey and the US and the agreement was to shoot down if you can. The details don't matter.

Does Turkey have the balls to take on Russia? No way but Turkey + NATO (aka usa) does and that's why it happened.


What will Russia do to Turkey? I'd guess not much

Just another proxy war
 
Ozair
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:10 am

Quoting mad99 (Reply 112):
I'm sure this was discussed between Turkey and the US and the agreement was to shoot down if you can. The details don't matter.

That assertion is absurd.

Quoting mad99 (Reply 112):
Does Turkey have the balls to take on Russia? No way

I'd put my money on Turkey to roll the Russian forces in the region. The Russian military would struggle to power project into the region in a sustained campaign against a competent military, especially one with an air force the size of Turkey's.
 
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mad99
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:15 am

Quoting Ozair (Reply 113):
That assertion is absurd.

Why? You don't think NATO members discuss this things.

Quoting Ozair (Reply 113):
The Russian military would struggle to power project into the region in a sustained campaign against a competent military

When they can set up camp next door?

BTW i know this is a military forum and i don't know much about military things  
 
Ozair
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:34 am

Quoting mad99 (Reply 114):
Why? You don't think NATO members discuss this things.

I don't think they discuss the intentional shooting down of Russian aircraft, no.

Quoting mad99 (Reply 114):

When they can set up camp next door?

It wouldn't take too much for Turkey to close that runway, cutting off Russian air support and leaving their naval units in the Med isolated and relatively unprotected.
 
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mad99
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:49 am

Quoting Ozair (Reply 115):
I don't think they discuss the intentional shooting down of Russian aircraft, no.

They wouldn't put it like that. It would be reams of diplo talk when boiled down would say if your aggressive with our common enemy we will support you.

If a NATO country is attacked then they all are attacked. If you get make the first move then you might find that the NATO brotherhood is not as strong as you thought
 
JJJ
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:52 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 87):
Turkish letter to Mr Ban Ki-moon General Secretary of UN.
Quoting reality (Reply 89):
Of course you can. They did warn the Russian planes before they entered Turkish territory. And then the Russian plane did violate Turkish air space. And then they did shoot it down

Honest question. How long does it take for an F-16 to get a target lock?

Because apparently the Su-24 was over Turkish territory for 17 seconds.

Taking in the time for target lock, launch, and hit the latter most likely took part already over Syrian territory, which doesn't really look nice for Turkey.

NATO and Russia complain about airspace violations all the time, I don't think starting to shoot at each other is a wise move when there are other more important things to worry about.
 
WIederling
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:54 am

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 93):
And less accurate . . . thus almost indiscriminate . . .

The US seems to very accurately hit the wrong people all the time.

Where is the difference?
Murphy is an optimist
 
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mad99
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:57 am

Turkey violated Greek airspace over 1,000 times during the first month of 2014

http://uk.businessinsider.com/turkis...gaged-in-dogfight-2015-7?r=US&IR=T
 
WIederling
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:02 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 90):
Especially when Russian planes have REPEATEDLY entered Turkish airspace and when Russia has been warned of serious consequences if they did it again.

Did they enter "regular Turkish airspace" or the Syrian border region that Turkey is claiming as "our airspace" ?

[Edited 2015-11-25 01:03:09]
Murphy is an optimist
 
ThePointblank
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:05 am

Quoting mad99 (Reply 114):
When they can set up camp next door?

BTW i know this is a military forum and i don't know much about military things

The Russians can't sustain themselves cut off from supplies in a region where they are surrounded by US-allied nations; they have Jordan and Israel to the south, US-aligned Iraq to the east, Turkey to the north, and the Mediterranean is basically a European lake.

Quoting JJJ (Reply 117):

Honest question. How long does it take for an F-16 to get a target lock?

Because apparently the Su-24 was over Turkish territory for 17 seconds.

The aircraft was probably already locked onto and tracked by the F-16 when it became clear it was going to violate Turkish territory. The F-16's were very likely monitoring and shadowing the Russians from within Turkish airspace.

Quoting WIederling (Reply 120):

Did they enter "regular Turkish airspace" or the Syrian border region that Turkey is claiming as "our airspace" ?

According to this radar picture, sovereign Turkish territory itself:



Red tracks are the Russian aircraft, borders are shown in sky blue.

[Edited 2015-11-25 01:08:30]
 
lancelot07
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:15 am

Quoting JJJ (Reply 117):
Because apparently the Su-24 was over Turkish territory for 17 seconds.

30 seconds according to CNN and US forces. Still, that begs some questions. E.g. how do you issue 10 warnings in those 30 seconds ? And be ready to shoot and hit an airplane.
Looks fishy.

Quoting JJJ (Reply 117):
Taking in the time for target lock, launch, and hit the latter most likely took part already over Syrian territory, which doesn't really look nice for Turkey.

   except if it was a prepared ambush. Mr. Putin may well be right with his allegations of a stab in the back.
 
TheSonntag
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:16 am

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 121):
According to this radar picture, sovereign Turkish territory itself

We should note, of course, that this Picture is from a Turkish source. However, something tells me it is probably not so far off the mark.

What range does the SideWinder have? It seems to me they were rather close if they used a SideWinder.
 
mig21umd
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:20 am

Quoting mad99 (Reply 112):
Does Turkey have the balls to take on Russia? No way but Turkey + NATO (aka usa) does and that's why it happened.

If you do some reading up on the state of the Russian military you might be surprised to find out that they are hardly in any position to go toe to toe with Turkey. Russia best weapon here would be to limit the supply of gas to Turkey this winter thus driving up the price to stay warm for the Turkish population and hope that has some blow back on the Turkish government and by supplying both Armenia and the Kurd's with a decent amount of weapons.

Also, Putin's involvement in Syria may not be that popular in Russia (this would be difficult to verify) and could be less popular following the downing of the Russian airliner a few weeks back. Putin's little excursion in Syria could cost Russia a whole lot more than whatever Putin imagined he could have gained.

Quoting WIederling (Reply 118):
The US seems to very accurately hit the wrong people all the time.

The difference is whenever the US accidentally hits a civilians target on the ground or in the air they tend to own up and address the issue head on. Unlike others who just hide, deny and create bogus evidence to try to prove something a normal person would never understand.
Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you long to return
 
mandala499
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:23 am

While this shoot-down isn't wise on Turkey's front...

Quoting JJJ (Reply 117):
Because apparently the Su-24 was over Turkish territory for 17 seconds.

Taking in the time for target lock, launch, and hit the latter most likely took part already over Syrian territory, which doesn't really look nice for Turkey.

One can target lock anyone outside one's territory, but one cannot shoot/fire unless the target is within your territory, and target must be hit while still within your territory. This is what Turkey has to prove.

Quoting JJJ (Reply 117):
NATO and Russia complain about airspace violations all the time, I don't think starting to shoot at each other is a wise move when there are other more important things to worry about.

Sovereign airspace? or ADIZ? Remember, sovereign airspace is not that much outside your coastline.

Quoting mad99 (Reply 119):
Turkey violated Greek airspace over 1,000 times during the first month of 2014

The general global convention is that your sovereign airspace is bounded by your sovereign waters or sovereign land territory. Nations can claim 6NM from coast, 10NM from coast, or 12NM from coast. Greece, opted for 6, BUT claims 10 for airspace, and that's not been recognized by Turkey, hence the so called "4 mile belt" term. That is a "separate dispute" subject to the area in question with this shoot down.
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
ThePointblank
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:38 am

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 122):
30 seconds according to CNN and US forces. Still, that begs some questions. E.g. how do you issue 10 warnings in those 30 seconds ? And be ready to shoot and hit an airplane.
Looks fishy.

The Russians were apparently warned 10 times over a period of 5 minutes prior to them entering Turkish airspace. It was very likely the first couple of warnings were just general warnings from the Turks that the Russians were getting a little close to Turkish airspace, and as it became clear that they were approaching and weren't going to deviate from their course, the warnings became more specific.

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 123):
What range does the SideWinder have? It seems to me they were rather close if they used a SideWinder.

Turkey has AIM-9X's and AIM-9M's. Generally accepted range of both, depending on launch conditions, movement of the target, etc is about 20 miles.

Another weapon that would be used is the AIM-120. Yes, longer ranged weapon, but the extra range means the missile has more energy.
 
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mad99
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:46 am

Quoting mig21umd (Reply 124):
If you do some reading up on the state of the Russian military you might be surprised to find out that they are hardly in any position to go toe to toe with Turkey.

I believe Turkey buys mostly US equipment and it might be more high tech but the Russian army is 3X the size.

Quoting mig21umd (Reply 124):
Also, Putin's involvement in Syria may not be that popular in Russia (this would be difficult to verify) and could be less popular following the downing of the Russian airliner a few weeks back. Putin's little excursion in Syria could cost Russia a whole lot more than whatever Putin imagined he could have gained.

Agreed

I've read that it was two Russian planes and two missiles were fired with one hit. No source yet



Quoting mandala499 (Reply 125):
The general global convention is that your sovereign airspace is bounded by your sovereign waters or sovereign land territory. Nations can claim 6NM from coast, 10NM from coast, or 12NM from coast. Greece, opted for 6, BUT claims 10 for airspace, and that's not been recognized by Turkey, hence the so called "4 mile belt" term. That is a "separate dispute" subject to the area in question with this shoot down.

ok and thanks
I think the point is these things happen all the time and usually without such dire consequences
 
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scbriml
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:51 am

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 122):
30 seconds according to CNN and US forces. Still, that begs some questions. E.g. how do you issue 10 warnings in those 30 seconds ? And be ready to shoot and hit an airplane.
Looks fishy.

Simple - they were warned before they actually entered Turkish airspace. Turkey would have seen that they would enter Turkish airspace if they didn't change course, so they were warned. They chose to ignore that warning. The F-16s were ready for them.

IMHO, a serious miscalculation by Russia who assumed Turkey (NATO) wouldn't have the temerity to defend its own border.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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WIederling
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:10 am

Quoting mig21umd (Reply 124):
The difference is whenever the US accidentally hits a civilians target on the ground or in the air they tend to own up and address the issue head on. Unlike others who just hide, deny and create bogus evidence to try to prove something a normal person would never understand.

That is a popular piece of fiction.

As it only happend under force and applied medial pressure.
( See the recent Hospital "removal" which afaics was also an intentional warcrime )
Worth Zero, Zilch, Nada, Nix.
Murphy is an optimist
 
JJJ
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:41 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 128):
They chose to ignore that warning. The F-16s were ready for them.

And very likely the Turkish missile hit them over Syrian airspace anyway.

I am sure behind closed doors the rest of NATO is having some strong words with Mr. Erdogan.
 
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pu
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:46 am

Quoting mad99 (Reply 112):
The USA wants a new government in Syria and Russia does not. I'm sure this was discussed between Turkey and the US and the agreement was to shoot down if you can. The details don't matter.

Does Turkey have the balls to take on Russia? No way but Turkey + NATO (aka usa) does and that's why it happened.


What will Russia do to Turkey? I'd guess not much

Just another proxy war

I think that's pretty accurate.

You need to add that this is a continuation of the Crimea, Ukraine story for Putin = Syria is aimed at the Russian people to distract from the perfect stom disaster of sanctions and the ridiculously low price of oil on the Russian economy. There is no ISIS where the Russians were flying and Putin could have set the rules of engagement to avoid the Turkish border and avoid provoking NATO air defenses if his purposes were really to focus on fighting the terrorists

....instead part of Putin's gameplan here is to conjure up a new outrage for the Russian people who react with predictable loyalty and admiration...






Pu.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:50 am

Quoting JJJ (Reply 130):
And very likely the Turkish missile hit them over Syrian airspace anyway.

Doesn't matter, there's little doubt they did violate Turkish airspace. Even Russia seems to have stopped denying it quite so vehemently.

Slightly better news, it appears one of the Su-24 pilots is alive and back at a Russian base in Syria.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
TheSonntag
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:00 am

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 126):

Another weapon that would be used is the AIM-120. Yes, longer ranged weapon, but the extra range means the missile has more energy.

Yes, but the AIM-120 would have been detected by the russian RWR.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 132):
Slightly better news, it appears one of the Su-24 pilots is alive and back at a Russian base in Syria

Good to hear, if it is true
 
blueflyer
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:08 am

Quoting mad99 (Reply 127):
I think the point is these things happen all the time and usually without such dire consequences

Occasinal transgressions into another nation's territory do happen. The Russian air force's cavalier ignorance of international norms does not happen all the time, at least not from non-Russian actors.

Turkey's reaction for a 30-second incursion was perhaps a bit much, but this was not the first incursion either, nor was it wise for Russia to repeatedly lock its radars onto Turkish aircraft operating in Turkish airspace.

This is the case of a bully that everyone accommodates because it is easier than not, who suddenly finds himself confronted with someone not in such a forgiving mood...

Quoting mig21umd (Reply 124):
The difference is whenever the US accidentally hits a civilians target on the ground or in the air they tend to own up and address the issue head on.

Unless admitting operations wherever the "mistake" occurred is politically inconvenient. Owning up and addressing the issue never seem to include holding people accountable however, the fog of war explains everything. Later today, the official explanation of the MSF bombing will be released and a collection of human errors will be blamed. That may very well be the cause and I don't have any reason to doubt the official explanation (unlike hitting Al Jazeera twice for example). Yet I can't wait to find out who will not be held accountable once again.
 
JJJ
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:47 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 132):
Doesn't matter, there's little doubt they did violate Turkish airspace

Which happens all the time.

When Syria shot down a Turkish jet a few years ago then-Erdogan boss screamed it was "routine" for jets to cross over national boundaries.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-18562210

"It is not possible to cover over a thing like this, whatever is necessary will be done," he was quoted as saying by state news agency, Anatolia.
"It is routine for jet fighters to sometimes fly in and out over [national] borders... when you consider their speed over the sea," he added.
"These are not ill-intentioned things but happen beyond control due to the jets' speed."

So it's very rich of them to shoot down someone about a 17-second incursion.

Not to mention their repeated violation of Greek airspace.
 
Ozair
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:59 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 133):
Yes, but the AIM-120 would have been detected by the russian RWR.

May have been detected. I wouldn't put too much confidence in the RWR of a Su-24...
 
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pu
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:01 pm

Quoting JJJ (Reply 135):

Do you not understand the escalation of hostilities?

A Turkish jet was shot down. This incident caused Turkey to change their defense posture and tune up border protection. The Russians engage Turkish fighters into missile lock and violate Turkish airspace - repeatedly.

Russia knows the consequences of violating NATO airspace.

They were warned of the consequences of violating Turkish airspace and are now paying the price. There is no ISIS in the area and the Russians are deliberately privoking NATO because the Russian people love it.

No legitimate need or explanation for Russian jets in NATO airspace and in case you didn't know, Turkey joined NATO to protect itself sgainst precisely this kind of Russisn crime.





Pu.
 
JJJ
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:11 pm

Quoting Pu (Reply 137):
Do you not understand the escalation of hostilities?

Of course I do. I understand Turkey is angry with Russia bombing his pawns in the Syrian Civil war so they shot down a Russian warplane knowing there will be no retaliation since they're under the NATO umbrella.

That was hot-headed and not the way a NATO member needs to work.

This is the same Turkey that bombs US-supplied and trained Kurdish troops in Northern Syria rather than Daesh.

If we want to keep this a proxy war, we'd better keep bombing Syrians in Syria rather than shooting at each other.
 
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pu
Posts: 1364
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:08 am

RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:15 pm

Quoting JJJ (Reply 138):
I understand Turkey is angry with Russia bombing his pawns in the Syrian Civil war so they shot down a Russian warplane knowing there will be no retaliation since they're under the NATO umbrella

But do you understand why the Russians violated Turkish airspace?







Pu.
 
JJJ
Posts: 3715
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:26 pm

Quoting Pu (Reply 139):
But do you understand why the Russians violated Turkish airspace?

Because they can.

And now they're deploying a missile cruiser and escort fighters. Which means shortly NATO will have to ask kindly to Russia where and how they can fly.

Russia lost a 70s vintage plane and a pilot, but will have much more weight on the coordinating talks with NATO about strikes in Syrian airspace.

Probably they will call that an overall win.
 
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bikerthai
Posts: 3404
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:19 pm

Quoting seahawk (Reply 110):
Just escort future bombing strikes up North with SU-30s.

Turkey has US Patriot deyployed. We were asking why would the us deploy Patriots in Turkey when they are fighting against ISIS? Now we know.

Quoting Ozair (Reply 113):
The Russian military would struggle to power
Quoting mad99 (Reply 114):

When they can set up camp next door?
Quoting mad99 (Reply 127):
I believe Turkey buys mostly US equipment and it might be more high tech but the Russian army is 3X the size.

It's a matter of logistics. You can have a large army, but how are you going to deploy and supply it? Through hostile territory . . .

Quoting Ozair (Reply 115):

I don't think they discuss the intentional shooting down of Russian aircraft, no.

I would not be surprised if this was discussed between the US and Russian when they set up the hot line.
Including the protocol if and when aircraft is shot down.

Quoting WIederling (Reply 118):

The US seems to very accurately hit the wrong people all the time.

For the non conspirators, those incident are due to bad intelligence. For the conspirators, the US hit exactly what they wanted and the collateral damage was acceptable. In the second case, I would agree with you.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 132):
Slightly better news, it appears one of the Su-24 pilots is alive and back at a Russian base in Syria.
Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 133):

Good to hear, if it is true

So earlier we were discussing the barbaric act of shooting the pilot when they were parachuting down from the doomed aircraft. Now we see the flip side. The pilot, if not significantly injured can return to the fight. So the locals probably wished they would have hit him. If the pilot was injured enough to not be able to go back to the fight, then good for him. He can go home and another pilot will take his place and the bombing goes on. Thus is war.

Quoting JJJ (Reply 140):
Which means shortly NATO will have to ask kindly to Russia where and how they can fly.


The protocol is already established. The question is was Turkey included in the agreement. I suspect that the planners on both sides (US and Russian), by nature are rather anal, and will have already discussed the situation.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
neutronstar73
Posts: 796
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:57 pm

RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:28 pm

Quoting JJJ (Reply 140):
Because they can.

And now they're deploying a missile cruiser and escort fighters. Which means shortly NATO will have to ask kindly to Russia where and how they can fly.

Okay, now you've lost all credibility. Russia can violate Turkish airspace "because they can"? What gives them the right to do so? If you and Russia believe they can just roll into any airspace whenever and however they feel like, and NATO will have to "ask" Russia for permission is flatly hypocritical and ludicrous.

If you think Russia has no asserted hegemony over Syrian and Mediterranean airspace because of ONE ship being in the area (and because they lost two aircraft, one by their fault and another as a consequence of the first), all the while operating in NATO's backyard is the height of wishful thinking. Good luck trying to refuel that "fleet" in the Med, Dude.
Or resupplying your forces, should NATO say "well, no more overflights anywhere around here." Good luck, JJJ, with that.

You've no idea what you are saying...
 
apfpilot
Posts: 742
Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2013 4:19 pm

RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:29 pm

Quoting mad99 (Reply 119):
Turkey violated Greek airspace over 1,000 times during the first month of 2014

Well then lucky for Turkey Greece didn't do the same thing. Although since they both are technically allies in NATO whereas Turkey and Russia share no alliance it is a bit different.
Opinions are my own and do not reflect an endorsement or position of my employer.
 
trex8
Posts: 5575
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:54 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 104):
Quoting trex8 (Reply 102):
Would those warnings be in Russian, Turkish, English????

Transmitted in English on international guard frequencies.
Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 109):
Not important, communication to Russian fighters are usually "one-way" and met mostly with silence and ignorance.
 

I'm sure its SOP for the Russians to ignore everything but transmitting in English with a Turkish accent to a Russian speaker is probably not the greatest means of getting someones attention. Might as well just whistle in the wind. Even if they heard and understood the words they may not realize its for them as happened with the Iranian A300 and warnings from the vincennes

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 126):
Turkey has AIM-9X's and AIM-9M's. Generally accepted range of both, depending on launch conditions, movement of the target, etc is about 20 miles.

20 miles?? maybe on a closing target that started 20 miles away and kept flying straight at you.
 
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Asturias
Posts: 1977
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:32 am

RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:38 pm

This Syria mess is spilling on our doorstep, into our nations, our cities, our lives. I'd reaaally like to see some Americans on this forum take a big step back with their abrasive opinions and kneejerk reactions when it comes to Russia and their naive romantic idealized view of Turkey.

The fact of the matter is that Turkey shat its collective pants by shooting down this Russian bomber, even ex-US generals on Fox News agree with that. Compounding that is the fact that it is in fact the US that has caused the destabilization in the region, almost single-handedly.

In our back yard. Take that into account before putting on the arm-chair general's hat and blasting the first thing that comes to your mind on these forums.

We're also in NATO, but when it comes to such idiotic blunders by Turkey, they can stuff article 5, because it will not be invoked. They're alone in taking potshots at Russia.
Tonight we fly
 
WIederling
Posts: 9306
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:47 pm

Quoting trex8 (Reply 144):
Even if they heard and understood the words they may not realize its for them as happened with the Iranian A300 and warnings from the vincennes

Vicennes never ( if ever ) warned on any frequency the A300 would be expected to listen on.
Murphy is an optimist
 
TheSonntag
Posts: 4439
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:23 pm

RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 4:18 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 141):
. The pilot, if not significantly injured can return to the fight

Quite unlikely, IMHO, in such a "limited" conflict.
 
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scbriml
Posts: 19103
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 4:29 pm

Quoting JJJ (Reply 140):
Because they can.

Now they've gotten a bloody nose, maybe they'll think twice before doing it again.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
TheSonntag
Posts: 4439
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:23 pm

RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 4:42 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 148):

Now they've gotten a bloody nose, maybe they'll think twice before doing it again.

One Thing is also clear - the russians have been flying aggressively close to the borders of many european member states in the last 2 years. Maybe this shootdown is a good warning where the limits are.

On the other hand, Nato is a western alliance with certain values. Those values are under pressure not only in Turkey, but also in Hungary. Certainly the strategic importance of Turkey is so high that we cannot disregard it, but it must be made pretty clear to Turkey that treason against the values Nato stands for cannot be accepted.

It is about time Turkey is playing a constructive role.
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