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SAS A340
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 4:54 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 148):
Now they've gotten a bloody nose, maybe they'll think twice before doing it again.

Russia's approach is to provoke and be on the limits of the permitted all the time ... we can se it all over again and again and again and.........
doesn't matter if it's West of the uk, in the Baltic Sea or America's West Coast .... or as now, on the border along Turkey.

 
It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 5:05 pm

Quoting WIederling (Reply 146):

Vicennes never ( if ever ) warned on any frequency the A300 would be expected to listen on.

You mean Vincennes and ICAO said otherwise. Four warning (three by Vincennes and one by the Perry class frigate USS Sides) were sent on the 121.5 MHz International Air Distress frequency that IR655's crew was supposed to monitor.
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WIederling
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 5:10 pm

Quoting Garnetpalmetto (Reply 151):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655#Radio_communication
Murphy is an optimist
 
mham001
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 5:41 pm

Quoting Asturias (Reply 145):
Compounding that is the fact that it is in fact the US that has caused the destabilization in the region, almost single-handedly.

That's rich coming from a European. The real reason the region has been a powderkeg FOR DECADES is because of European meddling and map making. The world did not begin in 2003.
 
ryu2
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 5:59 pm

Quote:
I'm sure its SOP for the Russians to ignore everything but transmitting in English with a Turkish accent to a Russian speaker is probably not the greatest means of getting someones attention.

Do Russian military pilots need to have English proficiency? I assume they aren't governed by ICAO regulations.

[Edited 2015-11-25 10:34:59]
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 6:03 pm

Quoting ryu2 (Reply 154):

And saturating the guard frequencies with wrong warnings would be quite a cheap method to confuse the pilots...


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
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pu
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 6:08 pm

Quoting Asturias (Reply 145):
We're also in NATO, but when it comes to such idiotic blunders by Turkey, they can stuff article 5, because it will not be invoked. They're alone in taking potshots at Russia.

and what a valuable piece you are to the NATO alliance! Can you explain how Russia violating NATO airspace repeatedly and engaging NATO forces with missile lock is somehow Turkey "taking potshots at Russia"?

,,,Since airspace violations repeated constantly don't rise to the level of provoking retaliation onto Russia in your view, what does - Russian ground forces in Turkey? Russian ground forces in Spain? Or is there ever a level of Russian aggression that you are willing to fight against????

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 149):
It is about time Turkey is playing a constructive role.

I very much admit I have no idea how to sort out all the swirling factions on the ground and since Erdogan came to power I'm not impressed with the Turkish government. However, I think it's still true Turkey remains the one Muslim nation with anything like a European/American ability to govern themselves democratically in a society that has basic civil liberties far greater than anywhere else calling themselves Islamic.

If Turkey falls backwards even further and/or loses territorial integrity then any hope for some kind of detente between the Islamic world and the European/American world is probably over for 100 years. I think the Turks are essential to future peace, but the first move -as every democratic leader remarkably admits - is to ensure Turkey stays intact.






Pu.
 
WIederling
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 6:20 pm

Rumors:

Looks like there might have been no warnings at all.

The RF planes never entered Turkish's airspace.
They were strafing an ISIS resupply convoy.

command was given by Davotoglu personally
https://twitter.com/abdbozkurt/status/669469656537780224

in presence of some US military big wig. ( probably only a rather faint allegation at the moment )

Lets see what is volatile and what condenses into fact.

if this becomes fact Turkey and the US are exposed as active
and coordinated IS supporters.
No NATO help for Turkey.
Might move France further towards coop with the RF.
Direct US influence would be reduced another couple of notches.
Murphy is an optimist
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 6:46 pm

Quoting WIederling (Reply 152):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655#Radio_communication

Why thank you for backing up my point. 121.5 MHz is the International Air Distress frequency and that wiki article points out that they had equipment able to monitor that frequency.

http://www.upi.com/Archives/1988/12/...ing-of-Iran-Air-jet/6458597560400/

The report by five ICAO experts said, 'The aircraft was not equipped with the military air distress frequency 243 megahertz and therefore could not receive the seven challenges transmitted on that frequency.'

But it added the crew was supposed to listen to a second frequency, 121.5 megahertz, on which four warning were issued.

'The flight crew of Iran Air 655 was aware of the company instruction to monitor frequency 121.5 megahertz at all times while operating in the Gulf area,' it said.

'Four challenges addressed to an unidentified aircraft were transmitted by United States warships on that frequency between takeoff and destruction of IR655, three from the USS Vincennes and one from the USS Sides.


'There was no response to these challenges, indicating that the flight crew may not have been monitoring 121.5 megahertz in the early stages of flight or did not identify its own flight as that being challenged,' the summary said.
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WIederling
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 7:01 pm

Quoting Garnetpalmetto (Reply 158):

was the cockpit voice recorder recovered?

IMU the flight data based adressing by the Vincennes was faulty.
That frequency is for distress and not for target practice.
... and what danger should a civil flight present to a warship?

The Vincennes was operating in foreign waters and not at war with any of the bordering nations.

either this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bedford_Incident
or a planned provocation.
Murphy is an optimist
 
angad84
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 7:24 pm

Quoting Pu (Reply 156):
I think the Turks are essential to future peace

Perhaps someone should tell them that, because they sure are hell aren't acting like they know.

Cheers
A
 
a300
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 7:49 pm

Quoting Garnetpalmetto (Reply 151):
Four warning (three by Vincennes and one by the Perry class frigate USS Sides) were sent on the 121.5 MHz International Air Distress frequency that IR655's crew was supposed to monitor.

The warnings stated "unidentified aircraft", which the civilian aircraft crew would not have recognized as intended for them, particularly since they were still in the Iranian air space, ascending and within the civilian "Amber 59" corridor, squawking a valid code, in contact (in English) with BND tower, THR FIR and subsequently DXB tower. This were frequencies that the warships could have easily heard.

I actually am quite convinced by the US Navy's OWN investigation (much more so than those by the ICAO or the Iranian CAO, since the later two would not have had access to US naval classified data). This is from USN Admiral Fogarty 's report stated, "The data from USS Vincennes tapes, information from USS Sides and reliable intelligence information, corroborate the fact that [Iran Air Flight 655] was on a normal commercial air flight plan profile, in the assigned airway, squawking Mode III 6760, on a continuous ascent in altitude from take-off at Bandar Abbas to shoot-down".

The situation with warplanes on a combat mission near an international border being warned (if that was indeed the case), is not comparable to a commercial aircraft shoot down while in assigned civilian tracks (IR655, MH 17, etc).

[Edited 2015-11-25 11:52:02]
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apfpilot
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:16 pm

Quoting WIederling (Reply 157):
Rumors:

Looks like there might have been no warnings at all.

The RF planes never entered Turkish's airspace.
They were strafing an ISIS resupply convoy.

command was given by Davotoglu personally
https://twitter.com/abdbozkurt/status/669469656537780224

in presence of some US military big wig. ( probably only a rather faint allegation at the moment )

Lets see what is volatile and what condenses into fact.

if this becomes fact Turkey and the US are exposed as active
and coordinated IS supporters.
No NATO help for Turkey.
Might move France further towards coop with the RF.

I can't access twitter at work, do you have a difference source for this
Opinions are my own and do not reflect an endorsement or position of my employer.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:34 pm

The Russians were targeting ethnic Turk, but Syrian citizen, rebels supported by Turkey. As a reaction to the shooting down of their aircraft, the Russians, together with Assad Syrian ground troops, have stepped up operations against these rebels close to the turkish border, including artillery bombardments from Russian warships. The bombers are now being protected by Russian fighters.

The Russian government wants to show that Syria is their turf in the Middle East and Assad is their man. For them the Arab Spring was a US initiated "colour revolution" to remove Russian supporting authoritarian governments to reduce Russian influence.

For the Turks under Erdogan, Syria is Turkey's turf, as it used to be part of the Ottoman Empire for hundreds of years.
Russia and the Ottoman Empire have been clashing for centuries as well, due to Russia's attempt to get access to the Mediterranean. Crimea used to be part of the Ottoman Empire and a Russian attempt to get control of the parts of it led to the Crimean war in the 1850s.

Erdogan is playing his own games, he is an Islamist, who wants to change Turkey from being Kemal Attatürk's secular nationalist state into a Sunni Islamist state, where ethnicy doesn't matter as long as you support the Sunni religious-political leadership under a Caliph, like the old Ottoman Empire.

As for the version of Islamist, Erdogan follows the line of the Muslim Brothers rather than the Wahabis.

On a Christian scale Erdogan can be compared to an ultra conservative Roman Catholic, e.g. of Opus Dei, while ISIS, the Wahabis and Salafists can be compared to American ultra Evangelists with the Bible in one hand and the rifle in the other.

Jan

[Edited 2015-11-25 12:40:44]

[Edited 2015-11-25 12:41:47]
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WildcatYXU
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:43 pm

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 162):
I can't access twitter at work, do you have a difference source for this

The first two claims came from the surviving crew member.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/1...-russia-crew-idUKKBN0TE1TW20151125
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mbg
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:46 pm

I am fascinated by the amount of garble that is produced on this forum and elsewhere defending the Russian allegations without any objective data and verifiable sources. It is pointless to post the Turkish military radar traces over and over again. For a recording of the warnings issued to the Su-24 (not from the F-16's but rather from the TuAF Comms and Command Center at Diyarbakır / Turkey) see the video/audio at the link:

http://www.haberturk.com/gundem/habe...dusurulen-rus-ucagini-boyle-uyardi

The text might be difficult to understand for non-Turkish members but the audio recording is definitely not.

So, until Russians produce data to support an alternative story, it is clear that the shoot down was justified. Whether it was necessary or wise is another discussion.

[Edited 2015-11-25 12:49:16]
 
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:54 pm

I have absolutely no sympathy for Putin's foreign policy.

But I find this map of the incursion, even according to the Turks, rather revealing.

http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/800/c...russian_plane_shot_down_624_v2.png
From
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34912581

It is really the most futile border incursion an aircraft could possibly commit, and it's not strange that questions are being asked about Turkish motives beyond defending their airspace.
The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
 
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bikerthai
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:13 pm

Quoting Asturias (Reply 145):
We're also in NATO, but when it comes to such idiotic blunders by Turkey,

Having been in NATO much longer than Spain, specially through the cold war and various Arab - Israeli wars, I'd forgive Turkey for an ocassional blunder  

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
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Mortyman
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:32 pm

Agence France-Presse ‏@AFP · 36m36 minutes ago
#BREAKING Turkish military says did not know downed jet was Russian, according to statement
 
WIederling
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:00 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 163):
The Russians were targeting ethnic Turk, but Syrian citizen, rebels supported by Turkey.

Leader of the regional milita and his men might be ethnic turkmen but they were busy as terrorist forces
all over the region ( Syria, irak, ... )

It is not really about poor and harmless peasant villagers murdered by the russian baddies.
They were busy marshalling ISIS convoys cross border into Turkey.
Murphy is an optimist
 
WIederling
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:04 pm

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 168):
#BREAKING Turkish military says did not know downed jet was Russian, according to statement

So they thought they shot at an US, french, ... bomber ?

Hilarious.
Murphy is an optimist
 
Ozair
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:15 pm

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 168):
Agence France-Presse ‏@AFP · 36m36 minutes ago
#BREAKING Turkish military says did not know downed jet was Russian, according to statement

Agence France-Presse have come late to the party. The Turks themselves made that exact statement to the UN in the letter posted in reply 87.

Quoting WIederling (Reply 170):
So they thought they shot at an US, french, ... bomber ?

Given both Russia and Syria operate the Su-24 it is pretty reasonable for the Turks to claim they are not sure whose aircraft it was.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:25 pm

Quoting WIederling (Reply 169):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 163):
The Russians were targeting ethnic Turk, but Syrian citizen, rebels supported by Turkey.

Leader of the regional milita and his men might be ethnic turkmen but they were busy as terrorist forces
all over the region ( Syria, irak, ... )

It is not really about poor and harmless peasant villagers murdered by the russian baddies.
They were busy marshalling ISIS convoys cross border into Turkey.

I mentioned that Erdogan is playing his own game, independent of NATO, the US and France. And practically all rebels in Syria (except the three Kurdish factions) are Arab Sunnis, who want to get rid of Assad's secular, though slightly Shi'ite flavoured, dictatorship, most likely to impose a dictatorship of their own respective version of Sunni Islam.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
trex8
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Thu Nov 26, 2015 1:12 am

Quoting WIederling (Reply 170):
So they thought they shot at an US, french, ... bomber ?

Hilarious.

No IFF response or known coalition flight plan from AOC, designate hostile. Plus the Russians were probably not doing this for the first time.
 
CX747
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Thu Nov 26, 2015 2:21 am

It is interesting to read some of the poster's comments. Especially those coming from supposed NATO/Allied Nations. The situation is Syria is fluid to say the least. To steal a line from Top Gun, "Tensions are high". For the past several years, Russia has been thumbing its nose at the west. Taking parts of Georgia and the Ukraine and outright lieing about their involvement aka "little green men". Many allies in Eastern Europe were ecstatic about the F-15C and F-22A deployments to their nations during the spring/summer of 15. Some going as far as stating their presence alone was what kept their nation safe. A little over a month ago Turkey asked for the same assistance and F-15Cs from Lakenheath deployed.

There is no doubting the role of F-15Cs in an air campaign. Russia has repeatedly violated Turkish airspace since their arrival. Constantly pushing the envelope of what they can get away with or not have to answer for. Turkish F-16s finally called them on it. I am just thankful that it wasn't LN tailcoded F-15Cs scoring a fox 2 as that would have really created an international incident.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
kevin
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Thu Nov 26, 2015 3:22 am

What is curious is why there were so many cameras available in this pretty remote area that they were able to record the footage from so many different angles. Were they expecting the show?   
 
JJJ
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:40 am

Quoting mbg (Reply 165):
So, until Russians produce data to support an alternative story, it is clear that the shoot down was justified. Whether it was necessary or wise is another discussion.

No. That IS the discussion. If every airspace transgression resulted in a shootdown the Turkish AF would no longer have any flight capable airframes (re: Greece).

Quoting neutronstar73 (Reply 142):
Okay, now you've lost all credibility. Russia can violate Turkish airspace "because they can"? What gives them the right to do so? If you and Russia believe they can just roll into any airspace whenever and however they feel like, and NATO will have to "ask" Russia for permission is flatly hypocritical and ludicrous.

So why can NATO can violate Syrian, Iranian and just about every airspace out there where we're conducting operations in?

Because we can. It's easy as that. So do the Russians. Doesn't mean it's justified or anything.

I still think the Russians have come out on top of this. They've lost one pilot and one not precisely front-line aircraft, but this besides giving Putin an almost free hand on the domestic front, will allow them to increase presence in Syria.

Who wins? Assad. You can bet any NATO aircraft trying to hit Assad troops will receive a Russian warning that they have aircraft operating in the area and that they should back or be fired upon.

Turkish actions were reckless and hot-headed and will make life more difficult for legitimate NATO operations in the area.
 
WIederling
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Thu Nov 26, 2015 8:11 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 172):
I mentioned that Erdogan is playing his own game,

if Davotoglu personally greenlighted this act and some US military big wig was present ( not proven yet )
things would look decidedly more sinister.
Murphy is an optimist
 
WIederling
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Thu Nov 26, 2015 8:17 am

Quoting JJJ (Reply 176):
Turkish actions were reckless and hot-headed

this was a premeditated provcation afaics ( and probably a TK/US coop ).

Quote:

and will make life more difficult for legitimate NATO operations in the area.

There are no legitimate NATO ops over Syria.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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scbriml
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Thu Nov 26, 2015 8:31 am

Quoting WIederling (Reply 157):
Looks like there might have been no warnings at all.

Source? Turkey has already released what they say is recordings of warnings.

Quoting WIederling (Reply 157):
in presence of some US military big wig. ( probably only a rather faint allegation at the moment )

Source?

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 164):
The first two claims came from the surviving crew member.

Well, he would say that, wouldn't he?

Quoting WIederling (Reply 178):
this was a premeditated provcation afaics ( and probably a TK/US coop ).

Nice conspiracy theory, currently not supported by any evidence.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
WIederling
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:10 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 179):
Turkey has already released what they say is recordings of warnings.

see:

Quoting scbriml (Reply 179):
Well, he would say that, wouldn't he?

I'd prefer a recording from some nonpartisan entitiy.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 179):
Nice conspiracy theory, currently not supported by any evidence.

let me fix that for you:
"Nice theory, currently not supported by any evidence."

At the moment it is the best fit.

Slightly of topic:
Did some one read the results from the MSF hospital "removal" investigation
by a set of completely impartial US generals?
Reads like a more entertaining stream of excuses than what we got
at the end of Blues Brothers when Jake E. Blues rewoes his ex Princess Leia ( actually Carrie Fisher as Mystery Woman )
Murphy is an optimist
 
tu204
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:24 am

http://www.businessinsider.com/russi...site-of-downed-russian-jet-2015-11

As I said earlier, the those Turkmen buddies of Turkey have already recieving "letters of gratitude" from the Russian Aerospace Forces, Navy and Syrian Forces.

Idiots should have left those parachuting pilots and the rescue party alone.
What did they accomplish? Killed two Russian servicemen.
What are they getting in return? The concentrated attention of Russian forces followed on the ground by the Syrian Army.

Leads me to an idea by the way, if the Syrian Forces re-capture control over their entire border with Turkey, this whole mess will be over in weeks. Wish them luck!  
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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scbriml
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:05 am

Quoting WIederling (Reply 180):
I'd prefer a recording from some nonpartisan entitiy.

Which nonpartisan entity do you expect to have a recording?   

Quoting WIederling (Reply 180):
let me fix that for you:
"Nice theory, currently not supported by any evidence."

It's a theory your espousing about a conspiracy between Turkey & the US to shoot down a Russian plane. It's the very epitome of a conspiracy theory.

Quoting WIederling (Reply 180):
At the moment it is the best fit.

Of course.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
kevin
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Thu Nov 26, 2015 12:30 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 179):
Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 164):The first two claims came from the surviving crew member.
Well, he would say that, wouldn't he?
Quoting scbriml (Reply 179):
Quoting WIederling (Reply 157):Looks like there might have been no warnings at all.
Source? Turkey has already released what they say is recordings of warnings.

When you say there was no response you can release absolutely anything you want without anyone being able to question it. But guess what? One of the pilots has survived. I guess Turkmens did not do their part of the deal 100%.
 
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WildcatYXU
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Thu Nov 26, 2015 1:53 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 182):
Which nonpartisan entity do you expect to have a recording?

There is a report from a ME pilot confirming the warning. Not exactly a non-partisan report and no recording is available.
I'm wondering if it could be heard on the ME aircraft's CVR recording if the memory module would be pulled immediately after landing.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-n...an-pilot-says-turkey-issue-6904169
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scbriml
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Thu Nov 26, 2015 2:09 pm

Quoting kevin (Reply 183):
One of the pilots has survived.

He just his ass handed to him on a plate. He's hardly going to say "Yeah, they warned me, but I just ignored it like all the other times." Is he?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Thu Nov 26, 2015 3:26 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 185):

He just his ass handed to him on a plate. He's hardly going to say "Yeah, they warned me, but I just ignored it like all the other times." Is he?

Especially since that would reveal that his operational rules permitted him to risk violations of Turkish airspace, or get him in real trouble if he violated his orders to stay clear.
Heck, who knows if he really was the pilot at all. After all, faking a tape of a rediochannel monitored by a myriad of people is fairly stupid compared to ordering a pilot to tell bs on camera or just use someone else an claim that is the pilot.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
mham001
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Thu Nov 26, 2015 3:32 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 163):
On a Christian scale Erdogan can be compared to an ultra conservative Roman Catholic, e.g. of Opus Dei, while ISIS, the Wahabis and Salafists can be compared to American ultra Evangelists with the Bible in one hand and the rifle in the other.

No, American Evangelicals can not be compared to ISIS. That is patently ridiculous. How many people have American Evangelicals beheaded as infidels?

It's amazing really the misinformation and false impressions that come out of Europe.
 
WIederling
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Thu Nov 26, 2015 3:58 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 187):
How many people have American Evangelicals beheaded as infidels?

Going by their words : Billions.  
Mostly couchpotatoes. So no real action.

Ideological thinking and language used is about the same.
Both groups are book thumpin uneducated idiots.
Actually three: I'd place the Neolithic Jewish Orthodox too in that group.

That all essentially squabble over the same god also boosts the aggressions.
Murphy is an optimist
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4697
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Thu Nov 26, 2015 4:48 pm

Quoting JJJ (Reply 176):
You can bet any NATO aircraft trying to hit Assad troops will receive a Russian warning that they have aircraft operating in the area and that they should back or be fired upon.

NATO aircraft are not bombing Assad targets, and even if they did the Russians would not have the balls to do anything about it. You can also bet that if Israel decides to take out inside Syria some high-ranking Hezbollah targets or sophisticated arms shipments headed to Lebanon, as they are known to do, and some Assad troops happen to be nearby and get whacked in the process the Russians will do exactly diddly squat.

And for those who complain that the Turkish rules of engagement are too loose, last year Israel shot down a Syrian jet (also a Sukhoi Su-24, coincidentally) that had strayed 800 meters into its borders. By the time the Patriot missile actually hit the plane it had already turned back and was over Syrian territory.

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.617329
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
lancelot07
Posts: 1084
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:22 pm

RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Thu Nov 26, 2015 5:32 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 189):
By the time the Patriot missile actually hit the plane it had already turned back and was over Syrian territory.

Israel and Syria are technically at war. A military plane is fair game at all times.
Russia and Turkey are not at war, they are actually quite friendly and doing a lot of trade.
 
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DocLightning
Posts: 21633
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Thu Nov 26, 2015 5:45 pm

Quoting kevin (Reply 175):
What is curious is why there were so many cameras available in this pretty remote area that they were able to record the footage from so many different angles.

Because at this point as of January 2015 80% of all adults in the world carry a smartphone. Of Americans, 97% under age 44 did as of 2013. Market saturation. By this point, I doubt any of them lack cameras. Every adult around you is carrying a high-capacity camera and recording device at a quality that puts 1990's home video to shame. And not only that, they can squirt it to the world at large via Twitter or FB or Instagram or whatever in seconds.

The good news is that it seems that cooler heads are prevailing and there will not be a conflagration, nuclear or otherwise, over Turkey.

This event underscores the importance of good diplomacy and teamwork. Part of the problem is that nobodby seems to know which side anyone else is on. Why is Russia goading Turkey with repeated close passes over their airspace? Why not send a diplomat to Ankara and ask politely for permission to occasionally overfly the outskirts of Turkey in the interest of routing D'aesh. Why did Turkey not go to Russia and discuss with them what they wanted them to do?

We all hate D'aesh, so let's get some formal agreements on paper so we aren't shooting down allies.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
777way
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Thu Nov 26, 2015 6:27 pm

Turkey shouldnt have done this, its not like Russia is their foe.
 
tjh8402
Posts: 957
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:20 am

RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Thu Nov 26, 2015 6:31 pm

Quoting JJJ (Reply 176):
Who wins? Assad. You can bet any NATO aircraft trying to hit Assad troops will receive a Russian warning that they have aircraft operating in the area and that they should back or be fired upon.

As others have said, NATO is not targeting Assad's troops. Unlike the Russians and Assad, we are only going after ISIS. With the increase in Russian anti-air assets in the area, I would expect either greater communication between Washington and their coutnerparts in Moscow (we can hope), and/or increasing operations by F22s, B2s, and Wild Weasels with some sort of passive ECM to protect conventional aircraft. Allied Air assets in the area are far beyond the Russians in both number and capability. Putin isn't foolish. He'll continue to play it tough and push the limits as far as he can, but he's not going to risk his valuable SU-30s against F-22s backed up by F-15s and F-16s, just like the US will do everything it can (including spending the extra $ on stealth and passive Wild Weasel operations) to avoid an actual exchange of fire.

Quoting WIederling (Reply 178):
There are no legitimate NATO ops over Syria.

The air war in Syria was primarily a US and Arab operation. They were attacking ISIS targets, not the Syrian government who would've had grounds to protest. Seeing as ISIS is an enemy of the Syrian government, it would be indirectly assiting them. Most of the other Western nations had focused their efforts in Iraq, and they were there at the request of the Iraqi government. That being said, a NATO member nation has been now been attacked by a group that has assumed the made claims to the establishment of a state with a capitol in Syria. They are certainly now legitimate.
 
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AirlineCritic
Posts: 1704
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 1:07 pm

RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:21 pm

Quoting reality (Reply 89):
That's exactly how it did, and does work.

I love the combination of this username and the statement  
Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 97):
Russia and Turkey were technically allied in a cause...even though there was a difference of opinion exactly who the enemies are.

Haha. You managed to describe the current situation well in one sentence. So true.
 
lancelot07
Posts: 1084
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:22 pm

RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:37 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 191):
We all hate D'aesh, so let's get some formal agreements on paper so we aren't shooting down allies.

Not so sure about the Turks here. Or the Saudis. Or some Emirates. Or even the US.
Their inaction created a vacuum that was filled by the Russians. And they indeed bomb terrorists, something the others did not do in any signifikant manner the last few years.
 
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FYODOR
Posts: 713
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:58 pm

Interesting article regarding the issue:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/dougband...drop-new-ottoman-empire-as-ally/2/

Rather close to my understanding of the situation.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:59 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 191):
This event underscores the importance of good diplomacy and teamwork. Part of the problem is that nobodby seems to know which side anyone else is on. Why is Russia goading Turkey with repeated close passes over their airspace?

According to an article I have read on another, military, forum, the region, where the incident happened, is contested between Turkey and Syria. The area is currently part of turkey, but the Syrian government claims it as well, so Syrian maps could have shown the border further north.

Here is a link to a Wikipedia article about this contested province:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatay_State

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 191):
Why not send a diplomat to Ankara and ask politely for permission to occasionally overfly the outskirts of Turkey in the interest of routing D'aesh. Why did Turkey not go to Russia and discuss with them what they wanted them to do?

Because Russia is not bombing the Daesh, but other anti-Assad militias (some of them just as bad as the Daesh, but their sworn enemies, like the Al-Nusra Front). In this case it was a militia of an ethnic minority Turkish tribe living in Syria, which receives support from the Turkish government, which would like to see Assad fall. Erdogan has his own agenda and dreams of a Greater Turkey under conservative Sunni leadership and wants to get rid of the secular Shi'ite dictator Assad.

Jan

[Edited 2015-11-26 12:41:19]
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
AYVN
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 4:47 pm

RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Thu Nov 26, 2015 8:42 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 197):

Interesting article regarding the issue:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/dougband...drop-new-ottoman-empire-as-ally/2/

Rather close to my understanding of the situation

I agree, but only in sense that individual NATO countries shouldn't misuse their membership. But I think tone of article is best described in this quote from the article "Military alliances should be based on circumstances and defense guarantees should serve U.S. interests."
U.S. interests are usually U.S. interests (one member country, although powerful one) and may not be same interests as some other member country has...I don't think there would be as many member countries if only U.S. interests would be valid.
 
tu204
Posts: 2024
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Thu Nov 26, 2015 8:50 pm

Quoting tjh8402 (Reply 193):
The air war in Syria was primarily a US and Arab operation. They were attacking ISIS targets, not the Syrian government who would've had grounds to protest. Seeing as ISIS is an enemy of the Syrian government, it would be indirectly assiting them. Most of the other Western nations had focused their efforts in Iraq, and they were there at the request of the Iraqi government. That being said, a NATO member nation has been now been attacked by a group that has assumed the made claims to the establishment of a state with a capitol in Syria. They are certainly now legitimate.

Cool, I'll agree with you that if you explain one thing:

How come during the 15 months of US-led intervention ISIS got control of over 50% of Syria, and why when in the 2 months that Russia stepped in and started bombing the place to shit that ISIS started to lose ground?

Maybe you guys were bombing the wrong places yourselves?
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov

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