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FYODOR
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:11 pm

Quoting AYVN (Reply 198):
U.S. interests are usually U.S. interests (one member country, although powerful one)

It is indeed, but this arcticle is just an American view on matters. Sure experts from France of Germany have their own.

But I not sure if any member state besides Turkey is inetersting in neo-ottomanism.

So that is not the imperative but good point to think about.
 
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FYODOR
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:14 pm

Quoting CX747 (Reply 174):
For the past several years, Russia has been thumbing its nose at the west. Taking parts of Georgia and the Ukraine

Thats what I like  

Never thought Ukraine and Georgia is the West. So it is question indeed whose nose is there?  

Not a point for discusson. Just to describe one side approach.

[Edited 2015-11-26 13:15:47]
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:29 pm

Quoting AYVN (Reply 198):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 197):

Interesting article regarding the issue:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/dougband...drop-new-ottoman-empire-as-ally/2/

Rather close to my understanding of the situation

I agree, but only in sense that individual NATO countries shouldn't misuse their membership. But I think tone of article is best described in this quote from the article "Military alliances should be based on circumstances and defense guarantees should serve U.S. interests."
U.S. interests are usually U.S. interests (one member country, although powerful one) and may not be same interests as some other member country has...I don't think there would be as many member countries if only U.S. interests would be valid.

Um, you were not quoting me, but FYODOR in Post #196.
But I agree with your view.

Jan
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:38 pm

Quoting tu204 (Reply 199):
How come during the 15 months of US-led intervention ISIS got control of over 50% of Syria, and why when in the 2 months that Russia stepped in and started bombing the place to shit that ISIS started to lose ground?

possibly because the US-led operation concentrated more on getting ISIS out of Northern Iraq (with the help of the Kurdish Pershmerga of the KRG in Erbil) and to cut them off one of their main revenue sources, the oil fields around Mosul?
The Daesh are not only in Syria, as you might have noticed. They actually bulldozed the Iraqi-Syrian border markers as the border was imposed by the British and French colonial powers post WW1 (Sykes-Picot-Line).
And the mostly Shi'ite Iraqi military had to be rebuilt after their earlier defeats (also with the help of the Iranian Revolutionary Guards Council, which sent over troops and instructors). Plus Arab Sunni tribes had to be convinced to change sides (Many, while conservative Sunni and hating the Shi'ite sectarian government that took over from the former Sunni rule since Ottoman days, are no friends of the Daesh).

Same as many Americans you Russian guys tend to see this multi factional and border crossing civil war in black and white, with a good and a bad side. In fact it is a real mess.

Jan
 
tjh8402
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:11 pm

Quoting tu204 (Reply 199):

How come during the 15 months of US-led intervention ISIS got control of over 50% of Syria, and why when in the 2 months that Russia stepped in and started bombing the place to shit that ISIS started to lose ground?

Maybe you guys were bombing the wrong places yourselves?

If you're looking for a US flagged commenter to defend current American foreign and military policy, I'm the wrong guy. I do not, and have never had, any confidence in the current administration when it comes to international relations, and especially as commander in chief of the US military. My hunch is that Putin's confidence in his aggressiveness stems in part because he's intuitive enough to know what a weak and disinterested leader the US has. As the partner of a gay member of the US military, I am personally grateful to Obama for ending DADT and his handling of LGBT issues in and out of the service, but aside from that, I think Obama is an amateur and not the sort that I feel comfortable having at the top of my boyfriends chain of command (fortunately his position is one that if he was ever actually facing a dangerous combat situation, it would mean we're all gonna die anyway). Not that W did great things for the Middle East either, but current US policy there is a disaster.

That all being said, I will point to a few issues I can think of. First, US RoE tend to be much stricter than others in a (sometimes vain - see MSF-) effort to spare civilians. Trust me, my first question when I heard that the French were attacking ISIS targets in Raqqa based on US intelligence was "well if we knew there was something there, why hadn't we already hit them?" Perhaps the French had looser RoE as a result of Paris. Obviously, the Russian love of dumb bombs shows little regard for preventing civilian casualties. The Russians are also supporting a much better organized and equipped ally in the fight. Y'all are probably also getting better intelligence. the US is handicapped by having only the Kurds as a truly effective ally on the ground. There is also a brewing scandal in the US over attempts by some intelligence officials at Centcom to coverup/manipulate/spin/rosy up information about the (lack of) success in Syria and Iraq. Bad information leads to bad decisions.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:35 pm

Quoting tjh8402 (Reply 204):
Trust me, my first question when I heard that the French were attacking ISIS targets in Raqqa based on US intelligence

Where did you hear that ? Because here we hear the opposite, that this was all French intel.

Doesn't change the fact that if it was already IDed why wasn't it bombed, and we're given an explanation that might or might not convince, that France was making a list of targets to keep under the belt for exactly that kind of retaliatory action (something the US and Israel are familiar with).

Also from the same source it seems each time a mission of the coalition includes Saudi Arabia or Qatar, the targets are empty of ISIS troops, because they're leaking everything to them...
 
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csturdiv
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Fri Nov 27, 2015 1:51 am

Quoting tjh8402 (Reply 204):
If you're looking for a US flagged commenter to defend current American foreign and military policy, I'm the wrong guy. I do not, and have never had, any confidence in the current administration when it comes to international relations, and especially as commander in chief of the US military.

This. Our commander in chief (yes I am flying the Aus flag here as I live here now, but I am an American citizen) is too worried over collateral damage from bombings, so he is not doing much or approving much. If he is not going to approve bombings, then he needs to send in special forces on the ground. Next election cannot come soon enough, hopefully the damage over the past 8 years, both domestically and foreign, can be fixed.
 
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bikerthai
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Fri Nov 27, 2015 3:49 am

Quoting tu204 (Reply 199):
How come during the 15 months of US-led intervention ISIS got control of over 50% of Syria, and why when in the 2 months that Russia stepped in and started bombing the place to shit that ISIS started to lose ground?

As aviation geeks we see great potentials in air power. But if you think it was the Russian or American air power that pushed back ISIS, then you still have not learn the lessons of history.

The air war is only effective because of the troops on the ground. It was only recently that the U.S. finally realize that the Kurds are the only effective ground force in Syria to fight ISIS (not associated with Assad). Since then ISIS began to loose grounds in the north and will soon loose the east.

Even with Russian help, I doubt that Assad's forces will reach Raqqah before the Kurds. His force composition is all wrong and the people in the area is againt him.

bt

[Edited 2015-11-26 19:50:49]
 
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Aesma
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Fri Nov 27, 2015 7:06 am

I'm not a military expert so I won't comment on Obama's military strategy, and there is no denying that events outside his control (Arab Spring) threw a wrench in his plans, but his original idea was sound : if the US wants to regain status in the world, it can't start wars unilaterally, and even less carpet bomb places full of civilians. Now if the US wants to be "respected" in the Russian sense, that's another story.
 
WIederling
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Fri Nov 27, 2015 8:16 am

Quoting tjh8402 (Reply 204):
what a weak and disinterested leader the US has. ..................
I think Obama is an amateur

It is a vacuum filled by "other" interests.
Same goes for US foreign policy in general.*
Citizen interest and understanding doesn't go beyond some cartoon view of the world.
An easy to move in a desired direction via some emotionally ladden articles
in the news crowd.
voila, you have the "leaders from behind" calling the shots to their liking.

*
Look towards the Cuba Crisis for a situation were the president took away
initiative from the war mongering military. It killed him though.
 
1g
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Fri Nov 27, 2015 8:19 am

Quoting 777way (Reply 192):

The jet was unidentified when it was shot down. Turkey didn't shoot down the jet to mess with Russia, Turkey shot down the jet because it was not responding to warnings and it was violating airspace.

We've shot down Syrian jets and helicopters before for similar reasons... no one has questioned our judgement back then. Suddenly when a jet that's shot down turns out to be Russian, everyone starts considering the the rationality of the action.

While it would have definitely been best if this incident never occurred, I can't blame Turkey for taking the actions it did given the circumstances at the time. And it's amazing how insecure Russia has been about this whole event.

State-owned and mainstream channel 'Russia 24' has been broadcasting leaked conversations of President Erdogan and his son over money laundering.. conversations that were leaked back in 2013-early 2014.

RT has been sharing images of President Erdogan's son in a meeting with an alleged ISIS leader - https://www.rt.com/business/323391-isis-oil-business-turkey-russia/ - Trying to tie the Erdogan family with the ISIS oil business.
The imaged shared by RT has been debunked over a year ago, that so called ISIS leader is just an owner of a restaurant in Turkey.

It's amazing how Russia is suddenly so concerned about corruption in Turkey (Which I also find hysterically ironic). Borderline pathetic, really.

And I think this image shared by the Russian Embassy in the UK just tops it off nicely - https://i.imgur.com/8iaGDQR.png
 
JJJ
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Fri Nov 27, 2015 8:24 am

Quoting tjh8402 (Reply 193):
As others have said, NATO is not targeting Assad's troops.

Not now, but it was an option. I mean we've (and by we I mean the west) have been arming just about every opposition to Assad. Kurds, FSA and in the early stages even Al-Nusra and other questionable groups.

If the FSA had a meaningful chance of victory we would very likely have used air assets (if only to enforce a no-fly zone like it happened in the Balkans) now with the explicit support of Russia that option is pretty much gone.
 
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FYODOR
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Fri Nov 27, 2015 10:49 am

Well, as I pointed I gave the US only view on the case - couple of more interesting articles from Europe (if UK is really different from US   )
http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...ic-state-supply-lines-erdogan-isis - about Erdogan and oil business - point looks tougher than even Russian media describe
http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...26/russia-turkey-jet-mark-galeotti - about the reasons for Turkish attack.
 
JJJ
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Fri Nov 27, 2015 12:17 pm

Quoting 1g (Reply 210):
Turkey shot down the jet because it was not responding to warnings and it was violating airspace.

Would you rather the Greeks do the same?

http://www.ekathimerini.com/203825/a...s-violate-greek-national-air-space
 
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FYODOR
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Fri Nov 27, 2015 12:21 pm

Quoting JJJ (Reply 213):
Would you rather the Greeks do the same?

It will be another concept to work:

“A short-term border violation can never be a pretext for an attack!” (c) Recep Erdogan.

[Edited 2015-11-27 04:39:54]
 
WIederling
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Fri Nov 27, 2015 12:34 pm

Quoting 1g (Reply 210):
The jet was unidentified when it was shot down. Turkey didn't shoot down the jet to mess with Russia, Turkey shot down the jet because it was not responding to warnings and it was violating airspace.

balooney!
This looks like a carefully set trap and nothing indicates that it was unfortunate circumstances.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Fri Nov 27, 2015 12:52 pm

Quoting WIederling (Reply 215):
This looks like a carefully set trap and nothing indicates that it was unfortunate circumstances.

How to you set a trap that requires the other side to violate airspace after ignoring warnings? Syria has WMD and has used them, the do fly SU-24 and who's to say IS didn't capture one and use it?
OH... ypu mean Russia carefully set a trap for turkey to fall into. Now I get it.

Best regards
Thomas
 
JJJ
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Fri Nov 27, 2015 12:56 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 216):
OH... ypu mean Russia carefully set a trap for turkey to fall into. Now I get it.

It takes two to tango.
 
tjh8402
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Fri Nov 27, 2015 2:14 pm

Quoting JJJ (Reply 211):
Not now, but it was an option. I mean we've (and by we I mean the west) have been arming just about every opposition to Assad. Kurds, FSA and in the early stages even Al-Nusra and other questionable groups.

If the FSA had a meaningful chance of victory we would very likely have used air assets (if only to enforce a no-fly zone like it happened in the Balkans) now with the explicit support of Russia that option is pretty much gone.

Maybe maybe not. Obama drew a red line that he didn't have the moral authority to enforce (US Congressional support wasn't there; UK parliament was against), which was probably one of the most foolish foreign policy blunders of his administration - it killed US credibility and enhanced Russian standing because it gave Putin the opportunity to play peacemaker in negotiating the settlement of Syria's chemical weapons. Well played on Putin's part, total blunder on Obama's. I would agree that any chance of a no fly zone is now gone with the Russian Air Force there, and I'll be the first to call out Republican presidential candidates for the foolishness of pushing for one at this stage in he game.

That being said, the US is a different country than it was in 2003. Even the GOP's relationship with W is, in the immortal words of facebook, "complicated"; look at Donald Trump blaming W for not stopping 9/11 and Jeb's song and dance as he tries to figure to both link himself to and distance himself from his brother. After the failures in Libya and Iraq, along with our persistent economic trouble at home, the American public was/is wary of major military action. Obama was going to struggle to make the case that we had a compelling national interest in removing Assad, so the odds of support for strikes on the Syrian regime itself were low.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Fri Nov 27, 2015 2:41 pm

Quoting JJJ (Reply 217):
It takes two to tango.

And that changes that only one side, Russia, could set a trap in this case how exactly?

Best regards
Thomas
 
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pu
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Fri Nov 27, 2015 3:06 pm

Quoting JJJ (Reply 176):
every airspace transgression resulted in a shootdown the Turkish AF would no longer have any flight capable airframes (re: Greece).
Quoting JJJ (Reply 176):
why can NATO can violate Syrian, Iranian and just about every airspace out there where we're conducting operations in
Quoting JJJ (Reply 213):
Would you rather the Greeks do

Your problam is equivocation.

1. The difference between Turkey/Greece/NATO violating sovereign airspace and Russia violating airspace is the difference between a neighbour who accidentally trespasses on your property versus a lawless burglar who trespasses on your property. One is merely annoying while the other is always meant with malicious intent.

2......You have to look at who is tresspassing: one of the democracies who haven't added territory in 100+ years (EU/USA) ...OR a country whose been through 3-4 governments over the last 100 years with a long and bloody record of trying to takeover foreign countries.


3. Equivocation between the democracies and Russia is a near-universal problem for Russian apologists.

4......If a democracy occasionally does something wrong, commits a crime, runs a GITMO, or has one corrupt official this is no different in your mind than Putin taking a couple billion euro from the Russian treasury, having 100 000 political prisoners in Siberia, invading Uiraine, or getting banned from the Olympics next year for cheating, is it?


Get some perspective.

It matters a great deal WHO is violating airspace: NATO or Russia. Everyone wants to join NATO and the EU and everyone except corrupt dictatorships wants Russia out of their country.....so sovereign airspace violations are only serious when the aggressor is a nondemocratic criminal state supporting other criminal, undemocratic dictators like Assad.









Pu.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Fri Nov 27, 2015 3:21 pm

Quoting JJJ (Reply 213):
Would you rather the Greeks do the same?

That's for Greece to resolve and has no relevance to Russia's repeated violations of Turkey's airspace in a war situation.

Tell me, what do you think Russia would do if, say, the Ukraine Air Force repeatedly violated Russian airspace (or even the airspace of those parts of Ukraine that Russia has illegally annexed)?
 
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FYODOR
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Fri Nov 27, 2015 4:26 pm

Quoting Pu (Reply 221):
having 100 000 political prisoners in Siberia

How much did you say?  

Well - VV is clearly guy who is very far from democracy and there are some people from opposition who was and still under pressure but it is not a reason to manipulate with figures. You migh watch TV too much... And tell me than is Erdogan somehow better from democracy point of view? I never faced FB or Twitter was abandoned in Russia even. But he is NATO member so am I correct it makes him a good guy? What about NATO allies in Saud Arabia or Qatar? Are they democratic enough?

Well, somehow so-called West relates and cooperates with various types of regimes. When it see its benefits.

[Edited 2015-11-27 08:33:13]
 
tommy1808
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Fri Nov 27, 2015 4:29 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 222):
Tell me, what do you think Russia would do if,

Korean airlines may have a pointer or two.

Quoting JJJ (Reply 176):
So why can NATO can violate Syrian, Iranian and just about every airspace out there where we're conducting operations in?

Because we can. It's easy as that. So do the Russians. Doesn't mean it's justified or anything.

Exactly. Because they can. NATO aircraft did prove to be difficult to shoot down with russian hardware, Russian aircraft did prove easy to shoot down independent from the weapon manufacturer.

And of course the bit about Russia being pretty much irrelevant to anyone that isn't unlucky enough to have a border with it, while most NATO members are relevant.

And of course everything scbriml said.

Best regards
Thomas
 
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FYODOR
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Fri Nov 27, 2015 4:30 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 222):
Tell me, what do you think Russia would do if, say, the Ukraine Air Force repeatedly violated Russian airspace (or even the airspace of those parts of Ukraine that Russia has illegally annexed)?

Thats very good point mate. And it is clearly describes the picture of two countries which are in deep conflict. The point is until the end of November nobody besides Turkey didn't know that Turkey is hostile to Russia. And Russia had got it on the spur of the moment.
 
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bikerthai
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Fri Nov 27, 2015 5:21 pm

Quoting JJJ (Reply 211):
every opposition to Assad. Kurds, FSA

But unlike the Ukrainian conflict, the US has not supplied the rebels with sophisticated SAM systems. Be thankfull of that.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 222):
Tell me, what do you think Russia would do if, say, the Ukraine Air Force repeatedly violated Russian airspace (or even the airspace of those parts of Ukraine that Russia has illegally annexed)?

We already know what Russia did when Ukrainian Airforce violated Ukrainian air space. They sent in SAM batteries :O

Bt
 
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Aesma
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Fri Nov 27, 2015 6:19 pm

Quoting FYODOR (Reply 225):
Thats very good point mate. And it is clearly describes the picture of two countries which are in deep conflict. The point is until the end of November nobody besides Turkey didn't know that Turkey is hostile to Russia. And Russia had got it on the spur of the moment.

Well they protested at the UN. Several times. When diplomacy doesn't work, the next step is either sanctions, or military action.
 
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FYODOR
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Fri Nov 27, 2015 6:58 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 228):
the next step is either sanctions, or military action.

Well so you mean Turkey, NATO member, had started war agains Russia then? It is a bit agianst the words of President and PM of Turkey - yesterday they stated they was interested to develop friendly relations with Russia. Another point that Mr. Putin don't look for cooperation now. And it is Russia who anounces the sanctions against Turkey.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 228):
Well they protested at the UN. Several times

I don't know if I'll tell any secret but UN is the special place there everybody protesting against each other. Usualy it doesn't cause any wars or sanctions.
 
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FYODOR
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Fri Nov 27, 2015 7:07 pm

Quoting tu204 (Reply 227):
Ignore this guy. Just your average Rusophobe (probably American) troll typing away in Sweden.

Alexander, I'm a big boy to know whom should I ignore and then   I feel comfortable to discuss different matters with people with another opinion if they ready to talk and argue their point. Conformity is just boring.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 227):
if Russia were to shoot down a Turkish aircraft that violated Syria's borders.

I not sure it can happened if not just personal initiatve in case of close contact. It is a certain risk for that. But I think point of Russian air-defence in Siria is that it will be engaged just if attack will be repeated. So the Turkish pilots will know they can repeat the fate of their targets immideately. I guess it will work on their final decision to be more responsible.
 
lancelot07
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Fri Nov 27, 2015 7:11 pm

just to get a few facts right:

Quoting Pu (Reply 221):
1. The difference between Turkey/Greece/NATO violating sovereign airspace and Russia violating airspace is the difference between a neighbour who accidentally trespasses on your property versus a lawless burglar who trespasses on your property. One is merely annoying while the other is always meant with malicious intent.

Russia is a neighbour in this case. A neighbour doing a lot of business with Turkey and not in any way hostile.

Quoting Pu (Reply 221):
2......You have to look at who is tresspassing: one of the democracies who haven't added territory in 100+ years (EU/USA) ...OR a country whose been through 3-4 governments over the last 100 years with a long and bloody record of trying to takeover foreign countries.

The EU has added quite a lot of territory in the last 20 years, and members have started brutal wars against Russia in the last 100 years. Just read history.

I am not a fan of russian politics or Mr. Putin, but in this case it is quite clear that it was a trap. Mr. Erdogan is trying to drag NATO into his sponsorship of terrorists and his own expansion plans.
 
777way
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Fri Nov 27, 2015 7:25 pm

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 231):
The EU has added quite a lot of territory in the last 20 years,

Back in the 90s Austrain Airlines was marketing all former USSR states as new Europe including CENTRAL ASIA, bizzare.

Quoting FYODOR (Reply 229):
And it is Russia who anounces the sanctions against Turkey.

Russia's reactions are really silly, saying the Turk imports dont meet Russian standards, banning Egypt Air, destroying western food.

[Edited 2015-11-27 11:28:15]
 
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FYODOR
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Fri Nov 27, 2015 7:34 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 232):
Russia's reactions are really silly

Some times yes, I can just agree. But sanctions is generally not a way for common benefits - almost always both are loosers.

Egypt air is not the case of sanctions indeed but security matter.
 
tu204
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Fri Nov 27, 2015 7:53 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 232):
Russia's reactions are really silly, saying the Turk imports dont meet Russian standards

That is part of the reaction for the Su-24.

Quoting 777way (Reply 232):
banning Egypt Air

Egypt Air isn't banned, flights from Egypt are banned. And the reason for that would be bad security at Egyptian airports. You can't really argue this point, I mean, a Russian airliner departing Egypt was taken down by a bomb last month...
This is more than reasonable. And FSB agents are on the ground in Egypt helping the Egyptians get their standards up to ours. Once thats accomplished, flights resume.

Quoting 777way (Reply 232):
destroying western food.

Destroying contraband food that was brought into Russia illegally.
 
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pu
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Fri Nov 27, 2015 8:13 pm

Quoting FYODOR (Reply 223):
You migh watch TV too much

AND you might suffer from the pervasive Russian belief that the media in the democracies are in a conspiracy against Russia. I've been doing business in Russia for 40+ years and the only Russians who have a complete picture of Russia live elsewhere. But, please, if my figures are wrong, do tell us from someone like yourself who isn't poisoned by European TV: how many political prisoners are there in Russia. How many prisoners in gulags?

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinio...ners-trend-is-alarming/535105.html
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/russian-opposition-protesters-locked-up-after-bolotnaya-anniversary-pickets/
http://imrussia.org/en/projects/poli...ssias-memorial-human-rights-center

Quoting FYODOR (Reply 223):
tell me than is Erdogan somehow better from democracy point of view?

He probably isn't.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 227):
P.S. Turkey suspended all military flights into Syrian territory. Afraid someone might get shot down?  

P.S. Russia suspended all military flights into Turkish territory. Afraid someone might get shot down?

Quoting FYODOR (Reply 230):
Conformity is just borin

I am very impressed with your abilities to mix a natural Russian pride with something other than the usual message straight from the Kremlin Russians repeat here. There all always numerous EUropeans and Americans critical of their own policies but the capacity to admit weakness or error is almost unheard of for the Russisns I know living in Russia.





Pu.
 
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FYODOR
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Fri Nov 27, 2015 8:51 pm

Quoting Pu (Reply 235):
How many prisoners in gulags?

Well, we risk to go far from topic I guess...

Briefly. Lucky we there still no any GULAG in modern Russia indeed. I would not play words with such strong historical things. There are still a lot of opposition media, opposition politicians - they excluded from political process but they still have a right to speak even if we understand their voice is quiet. There are people who arrested for their political activites but as you presented yourself - the data of Memorial - there are few hundreds. It is just sad we have it especially with fact that most of these people doesn't bring any threat to the current regime. Btw - again - have you any ideas how many political prisoners on Turkish or Saudi 'gulag'?

Quoting Pu (Reply 235):
He probably isn't.

He definitely isn't. And if you'll look through the allies of West in the East honestly you might conclude that there much less difference between West and Russia then Russia and Gulf states. For your surprise you might can conclude that even Iran which is just sysnonym of evil for West is much more democratic state than Saud Arabia. But tell honestly first to yourself - do you ever thought about absence of any human rights there? Why you ready to attack the brutal expansionism of Mr. Putin and so soft to neo-osmanism of Mr. Erdogan? Turkey had started its hybrid war in Syria two years ahead of Ukrainian story. Was you worry about that?

You say we have wrong understanding of TV in EU or US. Ok - lucky me - I have easy access to all major TV inetrnational canals (you can just have it in most of pay-TV in Russia) and I have to confirm they at least often not objective. As they also part of 'black-and-white world' - complicated things are not easy to sell to the viewers and TV looks for sale. Thats the reality.

So if I could answered on your questions I just would suggest to return to the matter of topic  

[Edited 2015-11-27 12:53:19]
 
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Aesma
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Fri Nov 27, 2015 9:19 pm

Quoting FYODOR (Reply 229):
Well so you mean Turkey, NATO member, had started war agains Russia then?

No, they just made a point. Again, do you think Russia would accept daily incursions over its territory without ever shooting ?

Quoting tu204 (Reply 234):
Destroying contraband food that was brought into Russia illegally.

Turkey destroyed a warplane that entered Turkey illegally.
 
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FYODOR
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Fri Nov 27, 2015 9:33 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 237):
do you think Russia would accept daily incursions over its territory without ever shooting ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathias_Rust

Do you think if NATO plane on her way from Poland to Latvia will accidentaly enter Russian aerospace - Russia will attack it? Americans and Russians enter Swidish aerospace regulary (http://www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/landerna-som-kranker-sveriges-territorium/) - were they ever attacked by SAF? Why not?
 
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scbriml
Posts: 20086
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Fri Nov 27, 2015 10:21 pm

Quoting FYODOR (Reply 237):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathias_Rust

Way to turn around the most embarrassing failure of the old Soviet defence system ever!   

However, even allowing for the old Soviets having had a 'soft' moment, there's possibly a small difference between a Cessna and a fully armed Su-24.   
 
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FYODOR
Posts: 713
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Fri Nov 27, 2015 10:37 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 238):
a small difference between a Cessna and a fully armed Su-24.

No-no-no! Huge difference between 17 second accidental pass and unknown target moving to your capital. (I'd add smile on the other case but the guys were killed)

Seriously the other link describes case better indeed.
http://www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/lan...-som-kranker-sveriges-territorium/
 
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FYODOR
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Fri Nov 27, 2015 10:55 pm

Btw in 1988 the guy from Norway on C152 had crossed the border few times within few days (provocative reasons?) but he was even not intercepted. They saw him but were not care too much. Just to describe the time when world was moving to peace.
 
1g
Posts: 194
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Fri Nov 27, 2015 11:04 pm

Quoting JJJ (Reply 213):

It's not exactly comparable.

Moving past the fact that Turkey and Greece are on good terms and that these 'violations' are done over disputed airspace (Greece claims 6nm for territorial water, 10nm for airspace, Turkey only recognizes the 6nm claim)

If Turkish jets are violating clear cut Greek airspace, not responding to warnings and not identifying themselves and their intentions. Greece will be totally in the right to shoot down the Turkish jet.
 
neutronstar73
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Fri Nov 27, 2015 11:28 pm

Quoting tjh8402 (Reply 204):
My hunch is that Putin's confidence in his aggressiveness stems in part because he's intuitive enough to know what a weak and disinterested leader the US has.

Annnd you've invalidated everything you have written with this one ill thought-out sentence. Obama's strategy in Syria is necessarily complicated, because 1) the American public will not approve of US forces on the ground fighting yet another MidEast War; 2) America's allies aint interested in a ground war, either; 3) where your point fails is that, even though he would be fighting with an ally, Putin has no stomach to put Russian troops on the ground either, but knows that, in the end, Assad is likely toast; 4) Even if US forces are on the ground and wipe ISIS away, it still wouldn't solve the problem of sectarian differences in the region and the regional players ALL waiting on the US to do their dirty work, and yes, that includes Europe, Russia, Iran, Jordan, Israel, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, UAE, Qatar, Turkey, etc. etc.

American doctrine is not to begin mass carpet bombing of population centers in an effort to kill everyone and everything. We (yes, I'm in the military) don't fight like that because we know it creates a hell of a lot more problems than solves.

The reason Putin is feeling froggy these days is because of the constricting feeling he is feeling around his neck, as US "soft-power" is accomplishing the goal of diminishing Russian power and influence, until Putin straightens out and plays nice. So, Putin is lashing out wherever he can. Remember, Saudi Arabia told him to piss up a rope when he tried to enlist their help to his side, as did everyone else in the region who feel that Assad must step down for the violence to stop. Russia's economy isn't doing so well, and Putin must shore up support at home. This incident shows how constrained he is at this point.
 
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pu
Posts: 1364
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Sat Nov 28, 2015 12:04 am

Quoting FYODOR (Reply 235):
Btw - again - have you any ideas how many political prisoners on Turkish or Saudi 'gulag'?

Unfortunately back when I was working full time I had to visit Ryadh regularly to work out the financing for whatever goods/skills/ego project they had in mind to buy from Europe/America that year. Once I was riding with a Saudi colleague who insisted on driving us home after drinks, he was pulled over, threatened with arrest, we paid $500 and we went on our way with no further problem. The same thing has happened a dozen times to me in Russia, except usually when we're pulled over the driver isn't actually guilty of anything

So I don't know how many gulags are in Turkey or Saudi Arabia and from my experience their idea of civil "law and order" is exactly the same, but I also know they are no threat to European democracies as Russia is.

Quoting FYODOR (Reply 235):
And if you'll look through the allies of West in the East honestly you might conclude that there much less difference between West and Russia then Russia and Gulf states.

Similarities between Russia and Gulf States:
1. a compliant people who simply obey a leader who is big on showy projects and tells them they are wonderful even as their standard of living stagnates and falls behind,
2. a government that is not about democracy, communism, monarchy or Islam and is just simply about maintaining authoritarian power as long as possible

I don't see any similarities between Russia and the democracies that make Russia more similar to us than Erdogan, Assad, the House of Saud, etc.., but I do of course see a standard Russian mentality that "everyone is a criminal so stop picking on Russia being a criminal." There are degrees of corruption and criminality, Russia is at the top of the scale along with Assad and maybe the Saudis, but the democracies are very much further down the scale, so I don't join you in thinking the democracies and Russia are more similar than Russia and the ME dictatorships.

Quoting FYODOR (Reply 235):
that even Iran which is just sysnonym of evil for West is

Your self-awarded ability to correctly perceive the truth from your clever interpretation of both democratic and Russian media sources is sadly off here, so maybe you better re-evaluate your understanding of European/American media?

....Iran is on the rise in both America and Europe; if a Democrat wins the American election I can see full-scale diplomatic relations restored as they did with Cuba, and in any event Iran was never seen as the "synonym of evil" in Europe as it was in the USA.

Quoting FYODOR (Reply 235):
do you ever thought about absence of any human rights there?

Sure I do.

But we've got to manage many issues at once and the imperative at the moment seems to control terrorism. As it happens I think terrorism is not a bigger problem than Russian aims in Scandinavia and Eastern Europe, which is accurately reflected in NATO and allied military doctrine/defense spending...

Quoting FYODOR (Reply 235):
Why you ready to attack the brutal expansionism of Mr. Putin and so soft to neo-osmanism of Mr. Erdogan?

Good question.

Here's the answer: Because Russia is a constant threat to the few democracies there are in this world and causes us a tremendous waste of resources in defense - but Erdogan doesn't threaten us, he only threatens other Muslim nations who FRANKLY, would probably be better off in a re-constituted Imperial regime ruled from Turkey or wherever, since they refuse to govern themselves.

Putin, and probably most Russians, considers Scandinavia, the Baltic, Eastern Europe, Central Asia and who knows what else a historic and/or rightful part of either Russia or "Russian influence." Erdogan does not. No one gives a sh*t about all the wars in Africa for similar reasons that I mention here = a personal threat versus a threat to those in distant lands.

Quoting FYODOR (Reply 235):
Turkey had started its hybrid war in Syria two years ahead of Ukrainian story. Was you worry about that?

I didn't care except when the threat spilled over to my world. Ukraine is part of Europe, BUT...., Syria is -if everyone is honest about it- an irrelevant pile of sand populated by people we feel sorry for but who we are willing to use as pawns in our own selfish concerns.

Quoting FYODOR (Reply 235):
and I have to confirm they at least often not objective. As they also part of 'black-and-white world' - complicated things are not easy to sell to the viewers and TV looks for sale. Thats the reality

No, it's not reality.

You're quite liberated for a Russian but Russians do not have the ability to see the truth that others lack. There are 500 McDonald's in Russia and Starbucks and Apple products because the democracies understand what Russia is about and what Russians want better than the Russians in many areas (why no Russian restuarants/hotels/consumer products in Europe and America/???)

SO- whatever advantage you think you have at perceiving the truth is hampered by the fact that Russia has a blindly dangerous inability to perceive what the people in other nations want the way the democracies can. Hyper capitalism means you have to understand foreign markets and foreign people, authoritarian regimes (Putin) don't have any need to understand foreigners at all - instead they assume foreigners have the same motivations for power and fear of losing it that Russians do.

You put equal weight in Putin's story as the BBC's story and in fact it should be more like 90% BBC and 10% Putin. What the western media misreports or ignores is nothing compared to the ridiculous nonsense coming from state controlled media in Russia.

As for black and white look at the Russian apologists on here blindly defending a Russian jet intruding into Turkey or who initially simply repeated Putin's lies that there was no incursion and the jet was given no warning. The black and white problem is far far worse in Russia in my experience.

In terms of English-language sources, reading The Guardian and the BBC and Der Spiegel and CNN and FOX NEWS gives you pretty much the entire truth as it can be understood by non experts....then for an amusing insight into Russian reporting visit pravdareport-----

The democracies HAVE NO CENTRAL NEWS SOURCE like Russia, instead each provides reporting on opposite sides of the political spectrum with very different inclinations towards NATO and the US.

Fyodor, Thanks for the pleasant conversation!!!

Quoting Aesma (Reply 236):
Turkey destroyed a warplane that entered Turkey illegally.

...a warplane that entered for the 30th or so time this month, ignored warnings and was nowhere near ISIS targets.

Quoting 1g (Reply 241):
If Turkish jets are violating clear cut Greek airspace, not responding to warnings and not identifying themselves and their intentions. Greece will be totally in the right to shoot down the Turkish jet.

The attempt to argue that two NATO countries crossing into each other's airspace is equal to Russia violating NATO airpsace in Turkey is a retarded simplicity that says regardless of who's doing the intruding it should be treated the same - which is of course quite wrong.




Pu.
 
ThePointblank
Posts: 3804
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:39 pm

RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Sat Nov 28, 2015 2:32 am

Quoting FYODOR (Reply 225):
nobody besides Turkey didn't know that Turkey is hostile to Russia. And Russia had got it on the spur of the moment.

Umm... The Syrians knew full well that violations of Turkish sovereignty would result in the use of force by the Turks. The Syrians had a number of helicopters shot down by the Turks whenever they crossed into Turkish territory; the Russians should have known better.

So, we had a situation where:
1. The Russians knew full well of the Turkish RoE (which was, shoot at any unidentified aircraft that fails to respond to warnings about to cross into their airspace);
2. Knew that the Turks have shot down Syrian aircraft recently for violating Turkish airspace;
3. Knew that they've had discussions with the Turks, with their ambassador being dressed down by the Turks over airspace violations;
4. Admitted to previous airspace violations and pledged that they would not happen again;
5. Knew full well that the Turks were patrolling the border with over a dozen fighters on a regular basis

You think the Russians shouldn't have been so cavalier about airspace violations and operations close to the Turkish border? Remember, the Russians exist in Syria as a result of the goodwill of neighbours and the NATO coalition; despite all of the chest thumping by the Russians about the assets they have in the region, the Russian forces can very easily be cut off from supply lines, and they are significantly outnumbered.
 
lancelot07
Posts: 1078
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:22 pm

RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Sat Nov 28, 2015 7:24 am

Quoting Pu (Reply 243):
Putin, and probably most Russians, considers Scandinavia, the Baltic, Eastern Europe, Central Asia and who knows what else a historic and/or rightful part of either Russia or "Russian influence." Erdogan does not. No one gives a sh*t about all the wars in Africa for similar reasons that I mention here = a personal threat versus a threat to those in distant lands.

Russia is an imperialist and revisionist power, no doubt about that. And Putin is a bully.

BUT Russians in the west do not live off social welfare, do not say they want to live according to the sharia and can't accept certain parts of western constitutions, do not run around in burkas. They are tax-paying good citizens even as foreigners.
In short, a vast majority of Russians are as european as we are. A vast majority of Turks is not, and this situation has rapidly deteriorated over the last 10 years.
It is not Russians that commit atrocious terrorist attacks in our cities. And don't think even for a minute, Erdogan would not like to act as Putin does. He is not better or nicer than Putin, he just does not have the same capabilities.

Quoting Pu (Reply 243):
(why no Russian restuarants/hotels/consumer products in Europe and America/???)

There is Vodka and caviar. And Kaspersky. And you will find russian restaurants.
 
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FYODOR
Posts: 713
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 4:13 am

RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Sat Nov 28, 2015 10:31 am

Quoting Pu (Reply 243):
You're quite liberated for a Russian but Russians do not have

Well I guess the problem is that you really hate Russia and Russians. Nothing new - you may have reasons for that. I've met many people form Europe with such approach but luckely I also saw a lot of opposite cases. Also in Sweden there I have a lot of friends and colleagues.

So, please - do not separate me from other Russians. Even if I'm critical on many things appears in Russia I'm Russian. So please keep me in your line of other 'bloody busturds'. It will make your world just more easy.

With the rest of things - the volume of text doesn't make it more convincing. If you want to consider Saudi ot Turkey as not a challenge for Europe - its your right to be blind - its your right, you live in democratic state (even if it is quite socialists).

One point you are partly correct:

Quoting Pu (Reply 243):
a standard Russian mentality that "everyone is a criminal so stop picking on Russia being a criminal."

I can't agree with first part of your statemnet - I simply don't know what is 'standart mentality' of 150 mln people, but as democrat and real defender of Western values you might know it better. Being spent in Europe (including Sweden) quite a long time I've learned it is not correct approach but I could misunderstand something as standart Russian.

The approach you describe is typical mentality for security service practice world wide. In brief it looks like 'nobody is perfect, everyone has its skeleton in the cupboard, so you can blame anyone'. It is even not mentatlity - its just manipulating practice. Its negative ethic - sad basis of cimism. Absense of understanding of good and bad - very dangerous and corrupting thing. And you right that cinism is the major current 'religion' in Russia. However I see it mostly among certain group of establishment and a lot in propaganda but I see it much less in regular life.

I aslo have to say that cinism is not Russian invention. It is quite typical for US and EU politics as well. So adepts of cinism in Russia often don't need to search for agruments - they are all on the table. And definitely I see nothing better in your one side position in compare with cinic approach (against cinism you at least can argue). Just different marginal points there I feel myself somethere in between.

Regards,

Fyodor (Russian)

[Edited 2015-11-28 02:50:13]

[Edited 2015-11-28 02:51:48]
 
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FYODOR
Posts: 713
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RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Sat Nov 28, 2015 10:41 am

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 244):
Remember, the Russians exist in Syria as a result of the goodwill of neighbours and the NATO coalition;

Really? My experience in world politics tell me that there are two approaches to react on things you dislike: you have an ability to prevent something or you cannot. So let me suggest your 'goodwill' synonym is 'absence of actual ability'.

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 244):
the Russian forces can very easily be cut off from supply lines

Cuting of others lines could be very costly for yourself. They know it well in US and EU. Thats why I guess it is still not done.

Mate, you think that you represent 'Superpowerwhichcandoeverything'. You right a lot - you are Superpower, stronger than Russia, than China, than India. But at the same time your Superpower sometimes stays helpless without versions what can it do. Like current case with ISIS. Think about that once.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Sat Nov 28, 2015 12:08 pm

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 245):
It is not Russians that commit atrocious terrorist attacks in our cities. And don't think even for a minute, Erdogan would not like to act as Putin does. He is not better or nicer than Putin, he just does not have the same capabilities.

Putin and Erdogan could be twins. Both came from a working class background and grew up in slums, where they had to physically fight to get accepted. Both took part in competition sports, Putin in Judo, and Erdogan in football. Both had to work hard to get where they are, and consider any opponent to be an enemy who has to be destroyed at any cost. Both have an authoritarian view of the world, they are the only ones who know what is right for the people.
Both of them dream of the restoration of their country's former glory, from times when they were ruling empires.
Both use local mainstream religion as a means to propogate power, Erdogan Sunni islam and Putin the Russian Orthodox Church, by giving them special privileges, not caring about ethnic or religious minorities.
Both appeal to working class people by appearing to be strong men, especially Putin, and speak their language.
Both try to appear as men, who prefer action over words.

Jan
 
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FYODOR
Posts: 713
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 4:13 am

RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Sat Nov 28, 2015 12:41 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 248):
not caring about ethnic or religious minorities

The only wrong point in your analisys. I'd say we have to much care on religions in general. And I never heard of any state pressure on religions for many years.

http://user.vse42.ru/files/P_S1280x853q80/Wnone/ui-522ec81474f141.55104374.jpeg

This is 'untolerant Moscow'.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Russian Jet Allegedly Shot Down In Turkey

Sat Nov 28, 2015 2:00 pm

Ok, I haven't seen this when I was in Moscow last year (mind, most of the time I was busy fixing an aircraft and had little free time for touristic activities). But i understand that part of the tarter heartlands are not thaqt far east of Moscow (by Russian standards, as your country is huge), in and around Kazan.
What I meant is the Orthodox church increasingly trying to stop people from converting to other Christian sects, let it be Roman Catholizism or Evangelic sects, and getting state help for it. I understand that in previous centuries and from 1943 (when Stalin carried out a massive reform in both the military and state, re-introducing ranks and symbols from the Czarist Army, curbing the power of political commissars and getting rid of leftovers from the 1917 revolution, plus opening up towards the Orthodox Church to unite the country against the invading Germans) onwards, the Russian Orthodox Church had gentleman's agreements with whoever was in charge that they would not critizise the political leadership, let it be the Czar or Stalin, and his successors, and the state would give them a quasi monopoly.
Btw., I'm an atheist as well, though I generally keep it for myself and let other people believe in what they want to believe, as long as they don't force their belief on me.

Btw., last year when I was in Moscow, practically everybody I dealt with was very nice and I remember the lady at the airport canteen having a giggling fit when I tried to order my lunch with the few words of Russian I picked up. I'd like to return to Russia. I have no problem with you people, but I'm suspicious of Putin's goal, same as I am of Erdogan's, Assad's and Obama's.

Jan
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