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ThePointblank
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Half Of German Tornado Fleet Non-Serviceable: Repo

Thu Dec 03, 2015 4:48 am

This from the BBC:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34983396

Basically, only 29 Tornado's are considered airworthy out of a fleet of 66 according to a German defence department report. This revelation comes as the German government announced it was considering deploying 6 Tornado reconnaissance aircraft to support military action against ISIL in Syria.

This is also a decline in serviceability as well, as it was reported that last year, only 39 Tornado's were airworthy out of a fleet of 89. The decline in serviceability is being blamed on "lack of availability of various spare parts".
 
INFINITI329
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RE: Half Of German Tornado Fleet Non-Serviceable: Repo

Thu Dec 03, 2015 4:56 am

The USAF can keep an aircraft almost 20 years older airborne what his the Luftwaffe's excuse?
 
Ozair
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RE: Half Of German Tornado Fleet Non-Serviceable: Repo

Thu Dec 03, 2015 5:32 am

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 1):
The USAF can keep an aircraft almost 20 years older airborne what his the Luftwaffe's excuse?

Funding, the Luftwaffe is critically underfunded to maintain the aircraft they have.
 
TheSonntag
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RE: Half Of German Tornado Fleet Non-Serviceable: Repo

Thu Dec 03, 2015 7:21 am

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 1):
The USAF can keep an aircraft almost 20 years older airborne what his the Luftwaffe's excuse?

Funding and need. The Phantoms were airworthy in sufficient numbers until 2013, being delivered in the early 1970s.
 
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ptrjong
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RE: Half Of German Tornado Fleet Non-Serviceable: Repo

Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:56 am

29 airworthy out of an original fleet of 359...
 
WIederling
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RE: Half Of German Tornado Fleet Non-Serviceable: Repo

Thu Dec 03, 2015 12:05 pm

Quoting ptrjong (Reply 4):
29 airworthy out of an original fleet of 359...

With the majority having been scrapped for political/cost reasons.

1992 357 delivered
2011 185 frames in the books
2015 85 frames in the books.
 
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moo
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RE: Half Of German Tornado Fleet Non-Serviceable: Repo

Thu Dec 03, 2015 12:14 pm

Quoting ptrjong (Reply 4):
29 airworthy out of an original fleet of 359...

And this is the country that originally wanted to ditch its entire Eurofighter purchase...
 
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ptrjong
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RE: Half Of German Tornado Fleet Non-Serviceable: Repo

Thu Dec 03, 2015 12:45 pm

Quoting WIederling (Reply 5):
With the majority having been scrapped for political/cost reasons.

Obviously. But you'd think that leaves plenty of spares and facilities for good serviceability on a fleet of 66.
 
WIederling
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RE: Half Of German Tornado Fleet Non-Serviceable: Repo

Thu Dec 03, 2015 1:16 pm

Quoting ptrjong (Reply 7):

They were _scrapped_ not stored in the desert.

( afaik to some part controlled scrapping for arms reduction purposes
mandated in scope of the reunification )
 
L-188
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RE: Half Of German Tornado Fleet Non-Serviceable: Repo

Fri Dec 04, 2015 5:32 am

Quoting WIederling (Reply 8):
Quoting ptrjong (Reply 7):

They were _scrapped_ not stored in the desert.

( afaik to some part controlled scrapping for arms reduction purposes
mandated in scope of the reunification )

You think the Luftwaffe would have stripped the ones they scrapped for parts.
 
L-188
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RE: Half Of German Tornado Fleet Non-Serviceable: Repo

Fri Dec 04, 2015 5:35 am

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 1):

The USAF can keep an aircraft almost 20 years older airborne what his the Luftwaffe's excuse?

The US has an advantage in that due it it's size it can stretch procurement of a type over a couple decades. This means that they are still buying the type when the original ones are retired. Another country might only have a few examples of a type and they all go obsolete at the same time.

US Navy Sea king vs. Canadian Sea Kings is a good example of this.
 
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moo
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RE: Half Of German Tornado Fleet Non-Serviceable: Repo

Fri Dec 04, 2015 9:32 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 9):
You think the Luftwaffe would have stripped the ones they scrapped for parts.

They did - there is still the problem of time expired parts tho, which aren't helped by scavenging retired aircraft.

Bear in mind that the RAF can still field the vast majority of its 98 remaining Tornado fleet, so its not a systemic issue with the aircraft itself - parts are available if you are willing to buy them.
 
mrg
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RE: Half Of German Tornado Fleet Non-Serviceable: Repo

Fri Dec 04, 2015 6:56 pm

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 1):
The USAF can keep an aircraft almost 20 years older airborne what his the Luftwaffe's excuse?

You guys have a fast jet in operational service that's 20 years older?
 
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Revelation
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RE: Half Of German Tornado Fleet Non-Serviceable: Repo

Fri Dec 04, 2015 9:06 pm

He said aircraft, you said 'fast jet', but anyways...

The B-52 is a pretty 'fast jet', so is KC-135:

1979 - Tornado EIS
1957 - KC-135 EIS
1955 - B-52 EIS
 
nomadd22
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RE: Half Of German Tornado Fleet Non-Serviceable: Repo

Fri Dec 04, 2015 9:10 pm

I know what happened to two of them. They ran into each other in 99 and rained down on one of my comms relays at Indian Basin near Carlsbad. Three days after I finished the year long project.
 
Chaostheory
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RE: Half Of German Tornado Fleet Non-Serviceable: Repo

Fri Dec 04, 2015 9:50 pm

As my West Germany army officer father in law would say, Germany's armed forces only look good on paper.

It's a minor miracle that the Tornado and Typhoon ever got built. On one occasion whilst the Tornado was being tested in Hot/Humid trials in the US (based at Luke AFB I believe), the Germans got into a strop and left after a few weeks leaving it to the Brits and Italians.
 
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Revelation
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RE: Half Of German Tornado Fleet Non-Serviceable: Repo

Fri Dec 04, 2015 10:56 pm

Seems the German Air Force is the "Air India" of Air Forces! 
 
L-188
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RE: Half Of German Tornado Fleet Non-Serviceable: Repo

Sat Dec 05, 2015 6:44 am

Quoting Chaostheory (Reply 15):

As my West Germany army officer father in law would say, Germany's armed forces only look good on paper.

We are talking about the same Army that red-tagged half it's trucks in Afghanistan unserviceable because their emissions inspections had expired and they would need to be sent back to Germany to have them tested.
 
mrg
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RE: Half Of German Tornado Fleet Non-Serviceable: Repo

Sat Dec 05, 2015 8:36 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 13):
He said aircraft, you said 'fast jet', but anyways...

You know what I mean: single or two-seater, ACM capable, supersonic and weapons carriage. Keeping that serviceable is a lot more challenging than keeping a Transporter going.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 16):
Seems the German Air Force is the "Air India" of Air Forces!

Many a true word spoken in jest  

What really pissed me off at the time was the decision to offload the MiG-29 fleet to Poland.
 
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seahawk
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RE: Half Of German Tornado Fleet Non-Serviceable: Repo

Sat Dec 05, 2015 9:31 am

Considering the spares supply situation for the early MiG-29s, I bet non would be signed off as fully operable today by the Luftwaffe, as you will have huge problems finding some spares with the needed OEM documentation, that are reworked by certified suppliers and have the OEMs approval.

The Tornado fleet is suffering because the spares for the old avionics run out, while the ASSTA 3 / 3.1 up-grade has just started to roll out.

And no the Luftwaffe is not Air India, they would not fly a jet with half of the mounting screws missing.
 
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Mortyman
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RE: Half Of German Tornado Fleet Non-Serviceable: Repo

Sat Dec 05, 2015 12:24 pm

From what I have heard, Germany will be participating in the fight against ISIL. Will they use their Tornado's for this ?
 
mrg
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RE: Half Of German Tornado Fleet Non-Serviceable: Repo

Sat Dec 05, 2015 12:56 pm

Quoting seahawk (Reply 19):
I bet non would be signed off as fully operable today by the Luftwaffe, as you will have huge problems finding some spares with the needed OEM documentation

I beg to differ. I read recently somewhere that the Polish Blk 52's cost more per fighthour than do the MiG-29s.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 17):
unserviceable because their emissions inspections had expired

We take emissions seriously here in Germany. Haven't you been watching TV? Maybe you need to stay in more 
 
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ptrjong
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RE: Half Of German Tornado Fleet Non-Serviceable: Repo

Sat Dec 05, 2015 2:14 pm

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 20):
Will they use their Tornado's for this ?

Tornado ECRs, as they won't do any bombing or shooting.
 
INFINITI329
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RE: Half Of German Tornado Fleet Non-Serviceable: Repo

Sat Dec 05, 2015 3:29 pm

Quoting mrg (Reply 18):
You know what I mean: single or two-seater, ACM capable, supersonic and weapons carriage. Keeping that serviceable is a lot more challenging than keeping a Transporter going.

The B-52 is a bomber not a transporter. That was the aircraft I was referring to in my initial post. There is no way you can convince me that it takes more work to maintain a Tornado than it does a B-52
 
Ozair
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RE: Half Of German Tornado Fleet Non-Serviceable: Repo

Sat Dec 05, 2015 8:25 pm

Quoting mrg (Reply 21):

I beg to differ. I read recently somewhere that the Polish Blk 52's cost more per fighthour than do the MiG-29s.

Cost per hour isn't a valid metric, the MiG-29A is essentially a day only WVR fighter while the Blk 52s are all weather BVR multi-role platforms. The main issue with MiG serviceability is the custom nature of the airframe. Many of the panels have to be custom machined to fit each individual aircraft. Quality control when they were manufactured was not a highlight of production...
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Half Of German Tornado Fleet Non-Serviceable: Repo

Sat Dec 05, 2015 8:26 pm

Due to the Ukraine crisis,this year Germany bought 100 Leopard 2 tanks earmarked for scrapping back from the scrappers this year to re-equip two armoured battalions, which only exist on paper so far. All these tanks will be modified to the newest standards.

Jan
 
Pyrex
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RE: Half Of German Tornado Fleet Non-Serviceable: Repo

Sun Dec 06, 2015 4:34 am

Quoting mrg (Reply 18):
You know what I mean: single or two-seater, ACM capable, supersonic and weapons carriage. Keeping that serviceable is a lot more challenging than keeping a Transporter going.

Take out the weapons carriage part and you have the T-38 (and the F-5 which was closely related to it was weapons capable). The last T-38s were produced in 1972.
 
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seahawk
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RE: Half Of German Tornado Fleet Non-Serviceable: Repo

Sun Dec 06, 2015 8:42 am

Quoting mrg (Reply 21):
I beg to differ. I read recently somewhere that the Polish Blk 52's cost more per fighthour than do the MiG-29s.

Sure because Poland uses locally manufactured parts, many of those are said to be better than the originals but many do also do not have the certification of the original OEM.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Half Of German Tornado Fleet Non-Serviceable: Repo

Sun Dec 06, 2015 7:57 pm

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 1):
The USAF can keep an aircraft almost 20 years older airborne what his the Luftwaffe's excuse?

Well, we still have 1963 C-160s flying.

But as to the why: we had a secretary of defense, that figured slashing the budget for spare parts would be a splendid idea along of reducing units across the board, regardless of operational requirements and alliance commitments.

That he faked his doctors thesis per copy and paste, as it later turned out, didn´t come too much as a surprise then.

But even when this popped up the first time and corrections where made, it was already clear that years of mismanagement would take years to clean up.That the fleet is currently being upgraded to ASSTA 3.1 standard doesn´t help front line availability either.

So, shame, yes, but something in the slow process of improving. Doesn´t look like it by the numbers, but before many were flying around with up-gripes, the down-gripes just cought up in the meantime.

best regards
Thomas
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Half Of German Tornado Fleet Non-Serviceable: Repo

Sun Dec 06, 2015 8:51 pm

I give Mrs. Von der Leyen the credit of actually cleaning out the mess in the German military's procurement department (which is, due to constitutional reasons, staffed with both military officers and civilian civil servants). The previous minister of defence (not the one Tommy was mentioning, but the one afterwards) seemed to have liked yes-men and anybody disturbing the routine by asking uncomfortable questions was sidelined. Everything was ok, as long as the paperwork was complete. This e.g. led to uncomfortably close connections between members of the procurement office and companies supplying the Bundeswehr, e.g. EASA and Heckler & Koch (one could almost speak of corruption, e.g. generals being offered management positions in such companies when they retire in return for favourable orders and contracts).
Even though I have never voted for Mrs. Merkel, Mrs. Von der Leyen or their party (to which btw. the other two ministers of defence belonged as well), I respect them for actively cleaning out the mess. Under the previous ministers the Bundeswehr would never have puplished such a report and pretended that everything was perfect.

Jan
 
tommy1808
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RE: Half Of German Tornado Fleet Non-Serviceable: Repo

Sun Dec 06, 2015 9:08 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 29):
I respect them for actively cleaning out the mess.

I am fairly impressed myself, in her former positions she didn't impress much and generally showed amazing lack of understanding. My favorite was when she claimed that child pornography is legal in India ....

Best regards
Thomas
 
Confuscius
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RE: Half Of German Tornado Fleet Non-Serviceable: Repo

Sun Dec 06, 2015 11:12 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 25):
re-equip two armoured battalions, which only exist on paper so far.

Times have changed, Guderian and Rommel must be rolling in their graves.
 
WIederling
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RE: Half Of German Tornado Fleet Non-Serviceable: Repo

Mon Dec 07, 2015 12:01 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 30):
her former positions she didn't impress much

Just like her father she is power hungry and has no qualms spouting what fits her current agenda.
IMHO it is unclear to put it mildly where her loyality lies. One can not trust her in any way.

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