mxaxai
Posts: 1200
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:23 pm

Ozair wrote:
Interesting comment from the LM Exec VP and CFO who thinks that the F-35 isn’t out of contention for Germnay yet.

New F-35 Block Buy is Close, Lockheed Says


Getting the price under $80 million in lot 13 will “certainly help with those possibilities,” he said. Germany has indicated a preference for the F/A-18E/F, but Possenriede said, “We don’t think we’re out of the German competition yet.”

http://airforcemag.com/Features/Pages/2 ... Says-.aspx

I think he is just talking earnings call sales talk but would certainly be a coup if it did come back into contention.

I'm not aware of any new developments since the preference for the F/A-18 became public. With the current environment and considering what's been leaked until now, the F-35 is still out - unless LM has some sort of Trump card on their hands. I think this is just Possenriede throwing a bone to the press.
 
YIMBY
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:08 pm

Ozair wrote:
YIMBY wrote:
What has more to do with this discussion?

The most fundamental question when planning to acquire new equipment is why do you need it. Evaluating the future military threats is the very starting point.

Fighters are not just toys for the pilots. They are to protect us.

The German Government has already established this, we don’t need to debate it because they will replace the Tornado fleet with another aircraft. The question isn’t why, the question is which. To take it a step further Germany has already agreed to develop a stealth aircraft. They are fully aware of the future military threat and what is required.

YIMBY wrote:
What was false?

Again, stand by your points or don’t bother posting them at all.

YIMBY wrote:
When, where and why should German Tornados or whatever else have gone into Russia?

The most useful weapon is the one that is never used!^n

Yimby, you can’t stay on topic, if you make a claim then support it. What point is there to responding if you keep changing the direction and never answering anything?


How many of the above questions you then answered? If my math is correct, that is about 0.
What is wrong focusing to the core of the topic?

For sure the most important question is why. That is the starting point. There is no which without why. If you do not want to have a discussion about why, you could call the moderator to close the thread or the whole forum. I recognize that it is a very political issue, but some politics is unavoidable in the military forum, and let the moderators tell where is the limit. Even if the why is fixed by the German government, we can speculate what it is, as the government may not tell everything.

In real life, however, the why is not a stable issue. The technology develops, in the USA, in Europe, in Russia and in the Middle East. There will be new scientific discoveries. The political landscape changes. Yesterday's friend can be tomorrow's foe or vice versa. Therefore the decision makers should continuously ask why, what for do they need defense capacity, how much and which are the best ways to build the necessary capacity. It is never correct to say that the previous capacity should be replaced 1:1 as it is very unlikely that the previous decision makers had accurate idea on today's world.

I know very well that the military prefer premature closing and want to run controlled projects in controlled environments. That is where all those standardized project management protocols come from. Agile just does not match with military. Maybe good so?
 
Planeflyer
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Sat Oct 26, 2019 12:33 am

YIMBY wrote:
Ozair wrote:
YIMBY wrote:
What has more to do with this discussion?

The most fundamental question when planning to acquire new equipment is why do you need it. Evaluating the future military threats is the very starting point.

Fighters are not just toys for the pilots. They are to protect us.

The German Government has already established this, we don’t need to debate it because they will replace the Tornado fleet with another aircraft. The question isn’t why, the question is which. To take it a step further Germany has already agreed to develop a stealth aircraft. They are fully aware of the future military threat and what is required.

YIMBY wrote:
What was false?

Again, stand by your points or don’t bother posting them at all.

YIMBY wrote:
When, where and why should German Tornados or whatever else have gone into Russia?

The most useful weapon is the one that is never used!^n

Yimby, you can’t stay on topic, if you make a claim then support it. What point is there to responding if you keep changing the direction and never answering anything?


How many of the above questions you then answered? If my math is correct, that is about 0.
What is wrong focusing to the core of the topic?

For sure the most important question is why. That is the starting point. There is no which without why. If you do not want to have a discussion about why, you could call the moderator to close the thread or the whole forum. I recognize that it is a very political issue, but some politics is unavoidable in the military forum, and let the moderators tell where is the limit. Even if the why is fixed by the German government, we can speculate what it is, as the government may not tell everything.

In real life, however, the why is not a stable issue. The technology develops, in the USA, in Europe, in Russia and in the Middle East. There will be new scientific discoveries. The political landscape changes. Yesterday's friend can be tomorrow's foe or vice versa. Therefore the decision makers should continuously ask why, what for do they need defense capacity, how much and which are the best ways to build the necessary capacity. It is never correct to say that the previous capacity should be replaced 1:1 as it is very unlikely that the previous decision makers had accurate idea on today's world.

I know very well that the military prefer premature closing and want to run controlled projects in controlled environments. That is where all those standardized project management protocols come from. Agile just does not match with military. Maybe good so?


The why is simple; they wanted to protect the local supplier.

Why not is too; at the sacrifice of pilots, deterrence and mission effectiveness.

Because Germany knows their NATO partners will provide the heavy lifting.

At first glance not a bad move but a very risky one given the nature of the neighborhood.
 
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Grizzly410
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:40 am

Today during the Airbus Trade Media Briefing of Airbus Defence&Space, Kurt Rossner the Head of Military Aircraft said ADS wants to offer Eurofighter ECR SEAD for the German Tornado fleet replacement.
Nuclear capability need to be discussed but technically possible.
https://twitter.com/RAeSTimR/status/1191632965329133569
https://twitter.com/geoindica/status/11 ... 7367665664
https://twitter.com/AgueraMartin/status ... 5376439296


Not exactly related with Tornado replacement but still with German AF, Tim Robinson also reports Rossner said the current German 110 Eurofighter tranche 2/3 will receive new radar E-Scan (but the slide mention the contract is still expected…). And there is an offer (project Quadriga) for tranche 1 to be replaced by 38 new production aircrafts.
https://twitter.com/RAeSTimR/status/1191635998637219841
In order to be old and wise, one must first be young and dumb.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:06 am

Planeflyer wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Ozair wrote:
Do you think they don't know what you are stating can occur? Yet they still continue to develop stealth aircraft and other platforms for their future military force structure. You can claim that is simply bad acquisition policy or institutional bias but that just isn't represented by the facts. .


I explained why stealth still makes sense for the military even when they know damn well it will lose most of its effectiveness in the foreseeable future.

Planeflyer wrote:
Who has demonstrated this ?


just about any radio astronomer in the last couple of decades, that routinely pick out signals not just way weaker than those on Ozirs graph, but actually well below the noise floor. They could literally pick targets out of the data by the local reduction in background radiation. Go talk to some folks in cosmology, it is absolutely mind boggling what they can do with lots of raw data and computing power. We can, for quite a while, detect single photons.

The computers at the Square Kilometre array have tender specifications aiming for radio noise suppression on almost Tempest levels, and are still put in cabinets that dampen another 130db. Because otherwise the equipment could pick that noise up, while the Antenna is looking in a completely different direction. And we are talking about very, very focused pieces of equipment with almost optical quality surfaces, designed to minimize side lobes..... and yet they can pick up the stray signals from a computers bus, in a concrete building 100 metres away, in a radio shielding cabinet.

best regards
Thomas


C’mon Tommy, are those radio astronomers able to discriminate these signals in real time?


Nope, they can't, but that is a question of computing power, as I have stated several times I believe.

If GAF believed stealth will become obsolete why would they invest In FCAS. After all by your reckoning it’ll be obsolete before it is fielded.


Also explained at length, and not just by me.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Ozair
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:39 am

Grizzly410 wrote:
Today during the Airbus Trade Media Briefing of Airbus Defence&Space, Kurt Rossner the Head of Military Aircraft said ADS wants to offer Eurofighter ECR SEAD for the German Tornado fleet replacement.
Nuclear capability need to be discussed but technically possible.
https://twitter.com/RAeSTimR/status/1191632965329133569
https://twitter.com/geoindica/status/11 ... 7367665664
https://twitter.com/AgueraMartin/status ... 5376439296

Well I won't claim credit for the idea as I suggested it just three weeks ago but makes sense to me. Not sure why they are focused on the SPEAR EW as the primary SEAD weapon but assume it would also be accompanied by a larger ARM such as HARM/AARGM.

Image

It is an interesting configuration suggested as I am sure those forward pylons are not wet currently. I thought there were also issues with the placement of A2A weapons so close to A2G weapons, and assume fuel tanks, on those stations. Surely using conformal tanks, already a development item for the aircraft, would be a better long term option than converting those pylons. Do the EW pods exist currently or will that also be a development required?
 
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seahawk
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:16 pm

That is maximum useless offer. More expensive and less capable than the EA-18 and even more obsolete than the Super Hornet when compared to a F-35.
 
Planeflyer
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:56 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Planeflyer wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

I explained why stealth still makes sense for the military even when they know damn well it will lose most of its effectiveness in the foreseeable future.



just about any radio astronomer in the last couple of decades, that routinely pick out signals not just way weaker than those on Ozirs graph, but actually well below the noise floor. They could literally pick targets out of the data by the local reduction in background radiation. Go talk to some folks in cosmology, it is absolutely mind boggling what they can do with lots of raw data and computing power. We can, for quite a while, detect single photons.

The computers at the Square Kilometre array have tender specifications aiming for radio noise suppression on almost Tempest levels, and are still put in cabinets that dampen another 130db. Because otherwise the equipment could pick that noise up, while the Antenna is looking in a completely different direction. And we are talking about very, very focused pieces of equipment with almost optical quality surfaces, designed to minimize side lobes..... and yet they can pick up the stray signals from a computers bus, in a concrete building 100 metres away, in a radio shielding cabinet.

best regards
Thomas


C’mon Tommy, are those radio astronomers able to discriminate these signals in real time?


Nope, they can't, but that is a question of computing power, as I have stated several times I believe.

If GAF believed stealth will become obsolete why would they invest In FCAS. After all by your reckoning it’ll be obsolete before it is fielded.


Also explained at length, and not just by me.

Best regards
Thomas


Tommy your explanations have been speculative hope rather than proof statements.

We could end this thread and move on to less circular subjects if the obvious facts in front us were acknowledged; the political leaders , over the objections of the AF have chosen a local product over a superior imported product in the hopes that in the future they can develop such a product(FCAS).
 
tommy1808
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:37 pm

Planeflyer wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Planeflyer wrote:

C’mon Tommy, are those radio astronomers able to discriminate these signals in real time?


Nope, they can't, but that is a question of computing power, as I have stated several times I believe.

If GAF believed stealth will become obsolete why would they invest In FCAS. After all by your reckoning it’ll be obsolete before it is fielded.


Also explained at length, and not just by me.

Best regards
Thomas


Tommy your explanations have been speculative hope rather than proof statements.


the consistent improvement of available computing power has nothing to do with hope at all....

We could end this thread and move on to less circular subjects if the obvious facts in front us were acknowledged; the political leaders , over the objections of the AF have chosen a local product over a superior imported product in the hopes that in the future they can develop such a product(FCAS).


Oh, i am perfectly fine with ordering a mix of Growlers and F35, as i agree they are the best options currently available.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Ozair
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:45 pm

The anti-stealth talk continues to amuse, especially in the context of the recent release of the LOUT.

Airbus reveals classified LOUT stealth testbed

Airbus Defence & Space has revealed a more than decade-long research and demonstration effort into very low observable (LO) technologies, conducted as a classified effort for the German defence ministry.
Showing its LO UAV testbed – or LOUT – platform at Manching on 4 November, Airbus future combat air system (FCAS) programme manager Mario Hertzog said the company began initial concept work in 2007. This led to a contract award in 2010 to refine configuration and material choices, and the production of a diamond planform demonstrator was completed in 2014.



Lessons learned from the LOUT programme will be available for potential adaptation during a long-term evolution activity on the Eurofighter Typhoon, and on a proposed French-German-Spanish FCAS development, Hertzog says.

"Stealth is and will remain an enabler for survivability," he notes.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... es-462003/

Can we now believe that Stealth will be an enduring capability for combat aircraft going forward because Airbus have officially stated it….?

Some images of the testbed;

Image

Image

Image
 
Planeflyer
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:21 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Planeflyer wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

Nope, they can't, but that is a question of computing power, as I have stated several times I believe.



Also explained at length, and not just by me.

Best regards
Thomas


Tommy your explanations have been speculative hope rather than proof statements.


the consistent improvement of available computing power has nothing to do with hope at all....

We could end this thread and move on to less circular subjects if the obvious facts in front us were acknowledged; the political leaders , over the objections of the AF have chosen a local product over a superior imported product in the hopes that in the future they can develop such a product(FCAS).


Oh, i am perfectly fine with ordering a mix of Growlers and F35, as i agree they are the best options currently available.

best regards
Thomas


I don’t think you understand the scope of the problem. To do what you suggest would take something like 10e 11 increase in compute speed assuming you could shrink the antenna size to make it practical.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_astronomy

Quantum computing may make this feasible but I’d have think through that a lot more to be half way sure.
 
Ozair
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Nov 06, 2019 4:59 am

At the very least it appears that Eurofighter production will continue in Germany with the wholesale replacement of all German Tranche One jets. The order is expected early next year. https://twitter.com/GarethJennings3/sta ... 5502532608

Below the Tranche one info you can also see Airbus's offer for the Tornado replacement, 45 with strategic capabilities (assume this means strike and nuclear capable) and 40 with EA SEAD capability.
 
Ozair
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Tue Nov 12, 2019 8:32 pm

Airbus expects the German Government to release a new RFI for the Tornado replacement. To me it seems clear now that an EA capability is an attractive capability for the GAF and, now that Airbus has a competitive option, the RFI will be changed to reflect that acquisition.

In some ways though this actually favours the SH/Growler combo as it will likely remain the cheaper platform to acquire and almost certainly, if NGJ is offered, more capable. it will also not have to undergo a separate nuclear dev cycle that the Eurofighter will require. It remains interesting to see how much of an impact domestic workshare will have on the selection and whether that overcomes the other two advantages of the SH/Growler.

Revised RFI anticipated for German Tornado replacement to accommodate electronic attack mission

Representatives from German industry have said they anticipate the German government issuing an updated request for information (RFI) for its Tornado replacement requirement, to include the electronic attack (EA) mission not stipulated in the original solicitation.

The statement was made by officials from Airbus who were promoting the company’s Electronic Combat Reconnaissance (ECR) version of the Eurofighter to replace the Luftwaffe’s Tornado ECR aircraft. They noted that, while the original RFI and subsequent request for proposals (RFP) did include suppression of enemy air defences (SEAD) as one of the core missions of the current Tornado ECR, airborne EA is a completely new mission set that was not originally covered.

...

https://www.janes.com/article/92518/rev ... ck-mission

Image
 
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seahawk
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:50 am

And it brings in the F-35 again.
 
Ozair
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:32 am

seahawk wrote:
And it brings in the F-35 again.

Does it?
 
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seahawk
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:38 am

A new RFI, makes the previous pre-selection invalid.
 
Ozair
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:52 am

seahawk wrote:
A new RFI, makes the previous pre-selection invalid.

I'd be interested in a source for that given the F-35 wasn't excluded based on anything other than the German Government bowing to pressure from Airbus and Dassault. Why would this new selection be any different?
 
Ozair
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:05 pm

So some interesting comments by the German Air Force Deputy Chief of Staff Plans and Policy. Germany has made a NATO commitment to an EW capability and will solve that through three different means, stand-off, stand in and escort. The stand-off capability will be 10 larger aircraft, the stand-in approximately 12 fighter sized aircraft and the escort covered by expendable decoys similar to MALD.

Germany sets out ‘challenging’ airborne electronic attack timeline for NATO

The German Air Force (Luftwaffe) is waiting on a government decision to launch a programme to field a dedicated airborne electronic attack (EA) capability for NATO by the mid-2020s, a senior officer said on 13 November.

Speaking in Berlin, Luftwaffe Brigadier-General Christian Leitges, Deputy Chief of Staff Plans and Policy, said the service faces a rapid timeline to deliver the anti-access area denial (A2AD) capability that Germany has committed to NATO under the country's Luftgestützte Wirkung im Elektromagnetischen Spektrum (luWES) programme, and that it expects the go-ahead from the government shortly.

"There is a German commitment to NATO to provide [airborne] jamming in the very near future, say within about five years. This is a very rapid timeline and a very big challenge," Gen Leitges said at the IQPC International Fighter conference, adding that Project luWES should be signed-off in the not-too-distant future if this timeline is to be realised.

According to Gen Leitges, Project luWES is based upon a three-strand system-of-systems (SoS). This comprises a stand-off jammer aircraft, an escort jammer, and a stand-in jammer. The stand-off jammer would consist of about 10 larger aircraft yet to be acquired by the Luftwaffe that would operate at a distance from the target area using an integrated/podded/or palleted EA system; the escort jammer that would be about 12 Eurofighter ECR or Boeing EA-18G Growler platforms; while the stand-in jammer would be an unknown number of small expendable assets such as Remote Carrier unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) or MBDA SPEAR-EW decoys operating in the ground-based air defence system's no-escape zone. "There will be attrition in this mission, and so air-launched decoys will be important [to remove humans from danger]," the general said. "We are just about to start this project."

...

https://www.janes.com/article/92552/ger ... e-for-nato

Obviously the Eurofighter EW upgrades are designed to make that platform competitive in the selection of the stand-in section. Anyone have an idea on what platform may suit the stand-off, perhaps a business jet or A220 is an option as an A320/330 seems too big for that requirement? It also highlights where the Germans see the application of the Eurofighter EW version/Growler in the battlespace. The expendable will likely be a development program as suggested in the article.

A reversal of the previous image but this time with green EW beams...
Image
 
mxaxai
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:33 pm

I wonder why they put the double seater in front? Just marketing? Not sure why you'd need the second pilot in that mission.
 
Ozair
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:34 pm

mxaxai wrote:
I wonder why they put the double seater in front? Just marketing? Not sure why you'd need the second pilot in that mission.

Looking at the graphic I thought they were both duel seat aircraft? I expect that the two seats would be standard as with the Growler for the EW role.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:07 am

Ozair wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
I wonder why they put the double seater in front? Just marketing? Not sure why you'd need the second pilot in that mission.

Looking at the graphic I thought they were both duel seat aircraft? I expect that the two seats would be standard as with the Growler for the EW role.

The dueal seat aicraft have that "hump" behind the canopy, which seems to be missing on the second jet. Might be the angle, though, or some artistic freedom. Compare for example the photos here from a fairly similar angle, both single and double seat: http://airforcephotos.blogspot.com/2011 ... chive.html
 
Ozair
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:06 am

mxaxai wrote:
Ozair wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
I wonder why they put the double seater in front? Just marketing? Not sure why you'd need the second pilot in that mission.

Looking at the graphic I thought they were both duel seat aircraft? I expect that the two seats would be standard as with the Growler for the EW role.

The dueal seat aicraft have that "hump" behind the canopy, which seems to be missing on the second jet. Might be the angle, though, or some artistic freedom. Compare for example the photos here from a fairly similar angle, both single and double seat: http://airforcephotos.blogspot.com/2011 ... chive.html

I would put that down to artistic license. For example if you look at the pylons the new locations for the fuel tanks are not as forward as the Airbus graphic showed here, https://twitter.com/RAeSTimR/status/1191632965329133569 and the rear aircraft is apparently carrying AGM-88 which might not be possible given the large EW pods.
 
angad84
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:59 am

Ozair wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
Ozair wrote:
Looking at the graphic I thought they were both duel seat aircraft? I expect that the two seats would be standard as with the Growler for the EW role.

The dueal seat aicraft have that "hump" behind the canopy, which seems to be missing on the second jet. Might be the angle, though, or some artistic freedom. Compare for example the photos here from a fairly similar angle, both single and double seat: http://airforcephotos.blogspot.com/2011 ... chive.html

I would put that down to artistic license. For example if you look at the pylons the new locations for the fuel tanks are not as forward as the Airbus graphic showed here, https://twitter.com/RAeSTimR/status/1191632965329133569 and the rear aircraft is apparently carrying AGM-88 which might not be possible given the large EW pods.


I cant find the link but I remember reading a tweet or article that said the Tranche 3 (and 2 as well?) jets will be EA-capable but the definitive EA capability will be based around new-build two-seaters.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:41 pm

Ozair wrote:
Anyone have an idea on what platform may suit the stand-off, perhaps a business jet or A220 is an option as an A320/330 seems too big for that requirement?


There are 13 surplus A400M coming and I would be disappointed, but not at surprised, if they become the stand-off EW aircraft.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
mxaxai
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Tue Nov 26, 2019 8:39 pm

Just to back up the whole ordeal of "nuclear sharing" with some numbers, only 22% of Germans support the nuclear sharing agreement. Meanwhile, 87% of the people think that a re-election of Trump will negatively impact transatlantic relations, which IMHO implies that buying US aircraft that carry US bombs has to happen with as little public attention as possible. Remember that Germany will hold elections for Angela Merkels successor in 2021, and the current minister of defence is the prime candidate for that position.

Source (same as in the FCAS thread): https://www.koerber-stiftung.de/pressem ... gkeit-1926
 
Ozair
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:18 am

I’m not sure why LM is bothering with this but interesting in the context of current comments in this thread.

LM continues to push F-35 to Germany

Lockheed Martin continues to promote its Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) to Germany, despite the country's government excluding the aircraft from the list of options for its Tornado replacement programme earlier in the year.

Speaking at the Berlin Security Conference (BSC) on 26 November, the company's Country Director for Germany International Business Development, Alexander Walford, said that the move to exclude the F-35A in January was "a political decision", and that Lockheed Martin continues to highlight the capabilities of its aircraft with a view to the Luftwaffe adopting it as a Tornado replacement platform.

"[The German government] hasn't said specifically what the reason was for the F-35's exclusion, [but] it was political. We respect their decision, but we still believe in the interoperability and survivability advantages that the F-35 brings," Walford said.

In excluding the F-35A as one of the potential replacement platforms for its fleet of Panavia Tornado aircraft, the Bundeswehr is now only looking at the Eurofighter Typhoon and Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet (the Super Hornet is being offered in conjunction with the EA-18G Growler electronic attack aircraft).

With the Luftwaffe looking to retire its 90 Tornado Interdiction and Strike (IDS)/Electronic Combat Reconnaissance (ECR) aircraft with 85 new platforms from 2030, and needing the replacement to enter service in about 2025, a request for proposals (RFP) for an aircraft to perform 10 current Tornado missions and two additional but undisclosed missions was issued in early 2018.

...

https://www.janes.com/article/92830/lm- ... to-germany
 
Ozair
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:30 pm

Understandably Airbus is really keen for this order and development to go ahead. Making claims that they are already behind on development though, when the concept itself was likely rolled out to the German Government less than six months ago, isn’t a great look. I think they seems quite intimidated by the SH/Growler proposal and see this as a means of permanently shutting that down.

Airbus presses for German Tornado decision to meet electronic attack requirements

Airbus is pressing the German government to expedite its Panavia Tornado replacement decision so that it can develop the electronic attack (EA) capabilities needed for both NATO and the Future Combat Air System (FCAS), a senior company official told Jane's on 27 November.

Speaking at the Berlin Security Conference 2019, Airbus Marketing Manager Combat Air Systems, Dirk Zickora, said that a decision is needed on which platform the Luftwaffe will receive to replace its 90 Tornados so as to release the funds needed for Airbus to develop the Electronic Combat Reconnaissance (ECR) version of the Eurofighter. If selected, this Eurofighter ECR would fulfil the government's EA commitment to NATO in the mid-2020s and feed into the New Generation Fighter (NGF) element of FCAS that is set to become operational in the early-2040s.

"We need a decision on the Tornado replacement to trigger the release of funding [for the Eurofighter ECR]. We are on, or slightly behind, the timeline [to meet the NATO and FCAS commitments] already, and we cannot really afford any further delay," Zickora said.

While Zickora warned that funding is needed to realise the Eurofighter ECR concept, he noted that some work is already underway through other parallel programmes. On the EA side, Hensoldt is developing the stand-off jammer element of the Luftwaffe's planned future capability, and a miniaturised version of this will form the basis of the system to be fitted to the escort jammer element for which Airbus is pitching the Eurofighter ECR. On the aircraft side, Eurofighter is developing the Long-Term Evolution (LTE) standard that will include the advanced cockpit to be fitted to the Eurofighter ECR.

...

https://www.janes.com/article/92867/air ... quirements
 
mxaxai
Posts: 1200
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:45 pm

This is mainly pressure on the German government IMO. They're warning them that if they don't decide soon, Airbus can't meet the schedule for the planned EIS because some things simply need time. As long as no decision is made, Airbus is not willing to invest further funds and manpower. After all, it's just a lot of wasted money if the deal doesn't go through. There are no other customers lining up (today) for a nuclear-capable or ECR version of the Eurofighter.

Same with FCAS. The current contracts only include funding for very short-term goals - and that funding is peanuts compared to the projected program cost. It's a warning that the government can't let them starve today and complain about delays tomorrow.
 
Ozair
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Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:20 pm

There is a lot contained in the following article mostly related to how the Rafale and Eurofighter programs will struggle to be a path for systems development in preparation for FCAS.

In the context of this thread though there has been continued suggestion that the GAF will never operate in areas with high threat or where stealth may provide a significant advantage. The presentation provided by the GAF Brigadier General for Plans and Policy makes it very clear they have a requirement for penetrating and operating in an A2AD environment.


Are Eurofighter and Rafale Modernization Paths Crossing Cutting or Parallel?: Perspectives from the International Fighter Conference 2019



Here the challenge is that there is no single Eurofighter but there are national Eurofighters which share commonality.

Indeed, the European Air Group has set up a working group to address ways to enhance the capability of Eurofighters to become more congruent among the national air forces.

This effort is a key one and a harbinger of success for either FCAS or Team Tempest.

With regard to mid-term modernization of Eurofighter, Airbus recently announced the launch of a new version of Eurofighter focused on delivering new electronic warfare capabilities to the force.

At the International Fighter Conference in Berlin Airbus and its partners introduced for the first time concrete details of the new Eurofighter electronic combat role (ECR) concept. This role will enlarge Eurofighter’s multi-role capabilities and further increase the survivability of coalition forces in hostile environments.

Collaborative electronic warfare capabilities are essential for future combined air operations.

Initial Eurofighter ECR capability is expected to be available by 2026, followed by further development steps and full integration into the future combat air system (FCAS) ecosystems.

Eurofighter ECR will be able to provide passive emitter location as well as active jamming of threats, and will offer a variety of modular configurations for electronic attack (EA) and suppression/destruction of enemy air defence (SEAD/DEAD). Latest national escort jammer technology will ensure national control over features such as mission data and data analysis. The concept also features a new twin-seat cockpit configuration with a multi-function panoramic touch display and a dedicated mission cockpit for the rear-seat.
The concept is driven by the leading aerospace companies Airbus, Hensoldt, MBDA, MTU, Premium Aerotec, Rolls-Royce and supported by the German national industry bodies BDSV and BDLI. It specifically targets the German Air Force requirements for an airborne electronic attack capability. Furthermore it is the single opportunity to deliver such capabilities on the basis of national sovereignty, whilst also securing key military technologies within Germany.

A presentation by Brigadier General Christian Leitges of the Luftwaffe made it clear why launching a new variant of the Eurofighter was needed certainly by the Luftwaffe.

He underscored that Germany had made a NATO commitment to expand its EW capabilities for the common defense.

Brigadier General Leitges argued: “We need to assure, that airborne assets can operate effect based in the whole spectrum of air operations against current and future hostile weapon systems.

“That means to prioritize the build up of capabilities that haven‘t been focused on in the past, e.g. Airborne Electronic attack.”

Brigadier General Leitges looked at the evolution of EW over time and underscored that the Luftwaffe had been organized I the past to penetrate ED “fences” but that the new challenge is to penetrate not simply fences but the A2/AD bubble.

The following slide from his presentation highlighted his perspective on the challenge:
...

https://sldinfo.com/2019/12/are-eurofig ... ence-2019/

The image provided by the GAF Brigadier General,

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