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SuperiorPilotMe
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Apr 15, 2020 4:47 pm

Back on topic (and I’m forced to admit I’m in hot enough water with the mods as it is, but some callouts are necessary) I’m surprised Boeing pushed for the SH over the F-15EX/QA. The frame is already cert for nukes, it’s a better push for the EX in USAF and it opens the door for the Luftwaffe to go significantly F-15 fleet precisely because it better replicates and does redundant Typhoon capabilities which could be an opportunity for Boeing to sell the F-15 as a cheaper, more proven and even more capable fighter to the German people.
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LyleLanley
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Apr 15, 2020 7:03 pm

SuperiorPilotMe wrote:
Back on topic (and I’m forced to admit I’m in hot enough water with the mods as it is, but some callouts are necessary) I’m surprised Boeing pushed for the SH over the F-15EX/QA. The frame is already cert for nukes, it’s a better push for the EX in USAF and it opens the door for the Luftwaffe to go significantly F-15 fleet precisely because it better replicates and does redundant Typhoon capabilities which could be an opportunity for Boeing to sell the F-15 as a cheaper, more proven and even more capable fighter to the German people.


HARM/EW. The G is already proven, whereas a theoretical HARM/EW capable Strike Eagle would be completely stovepiped, AND the Germans would have to figure it all out for themselves; with the G they can scratch out 'USN' and write 'Luftwaffe' on their checklists and they're 'done'.

Plus, it would be waaaay too expensive to go with the G for SEAD and the Strike Eagle for nuke sharing. Not to mention the Strike Eagle is a LOT more provocative, being more capable offensively, than the SH.
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mxaxai
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Apr 15, 2020 9:40 pm

There's also the fact that the F-18 is in service with a number of other European nations (Finland, Spain, Switzerland) so "commonality" could be used for marketing (I don't think there would be a signifcant difference in daily operations).
 
SuperiorPilotMe
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:50 pm

LyleLanley wrote:

HARM/EW. The G is already proven, whereas a theoretical HARM/EW capable Strike Eagle would be completely stovepiped, AND the Germans would have to figure it all out for themselves; with the G they can scratch out 'USN' and write 'Luftwaffe' on their checklists and they're 'done'.

Plus, it would be waaaay too expensive to go with the G for SEAD and the Strike Eagle for nuke sharing. Not to mention the Strike Eagle is a LOT more provocative, being more capable offensively, than the SH.


Yeah, I forgot the Growlers were a major part of the deal and concentrated on the pure strike elements.
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Ozair
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Apr 15, 2020 11:18 pm

mxaxai wrote:
There's also the fact that the F-18 is in service with a number of other European nations (Finland, Spain, Switzerland) so "commonality" could be used for marketing (I don't think there would be a signifcant difference in daily operations).

All three of those nations will not be flying classic Hornets by 2030 so, unless Finland and Switzerland both select the SH, commonality isn't a factor. Finland and Switzerland aren't NATO members either so commonality would be reasonably low. Additionally the commonality between classic and Super isn't great other than flying experience, there isn't a large number of parts used by both.

SuperiorPilotMe wrote:
Back on topic (and I’m forced to admit I’m in hot enough water with the mods as it is, but some callouts are necessary) I’m surprised Boeing pushed for the SH over the F-15EX/QA. The frame is already cert for nukes, it’s a better push for the EX in USAF and it opens the door for the Luftwaffe to go significantly F-15 fleet precisely because it better replicates and does redundant Typhoon capabilities which could be an opportunity for Boeing to sell the F-15 as a cheaper, more proven and even more capable fighter to the German people.

The per hour cost is likely too great for the EX. Boeing has done a great job reducing the per hour cost on the SH and Growler.

LyleLanley wrote:
HARM/EW. The G is already proven, whereas a theoretical HARM/EW capable Strike Eagle would be completely stovepiped, AND the Germans would have to figure it all out for themselves; with the G they can scratch out 'USN' and write 'Luftwaffe' on their checklists and they're 'done'.

The F-15E is capable of HARM carriage, it just isn't a weapon they use in USAF service. Additionally the F-15SA FMS package included provision for Saudi Arabia acquiring the HARM (600 missiles here, https://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/s ... a-aircraft ) so clearly the airframe is capable. The SA/EX isn't a dedicated EW aircraft though like the G and has no external EW pod that would be a distinction. It appears though the Germans intend to use the Growler primarily as a SEAD platform as per their commitment to NATO. I agree 100% that the ability to plug into the US EW structure for the Growler is a key selling point for Germany, and perhaps Finland as well.

LyleLanley wrote:
Plus, it would be waaaay too expensive to go with the G for SEAD and the Strike Eagle for nuke sharing. Not to mention the Strike Eagle is a LOT more provocative, being more capable offensively, than the SH.

I don't think Russia considers the EX any more provocative than the SH. Russia didn't come out in outrage to Poland acquiring the F-35, something that would likely be more provocative than Germany acquiring any aircraft given the proximity and capability.
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:15 am

mxaxai wrote:
There's also the fact that the F-18 is in service with a number of other European nations (Finland, Spain, Switzerland) so "commonality" could be used for marketing (I don't think there would be a signifcant difference in daily operations).

The Super Hornet barely has anything in common with the classic Hornet. They are two totally different aircraft despite looking fairly similar on the outside.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Thu Apr 16, 2020 11:51 am

LyleLanley wrote:
SuperiorPilotMe wrote:
Back on topic (and I’m forced to admit I’m in hot enough water with the mods as it is, but some callouts are necessary) I’m surprised Boeing pushed for the SH over the F-15EX/QA. The frame is already cert for nukes, it’s a better push for the EX in USAF and it opens the door for the Luftwaffe to go significantly F-15 fleet precisely because it better replicates and does redundant Typhoon capabilities which could be an opportunity for Boeing to sell the F-15 as a cheaper, more proven and even more capable fighter to the German people.


HARM/EW. The G is already proven, whereas a theoretical HARM/EW capable Strike Eagle would be completely stovepiped, AND the Germans would have to figure it all out for themselves; with the G they can scratch out 'USN' and write 'Luftwaffe' on their checklists and they're 'done'.

Plus, it would be waaaay too expensive to go with the G for SEAD and the Strike Eagle for nuke sharing. Not to mention the Strike Eagle is a LOT more provocative, being more capable offensively, than the SH.


The Growler can fulfil the jamming capability that Germany pledged to NATO, a ECR Typhoon could still replace the ECR Tornado in a SEAD role. Which would be a lot more simple from the amount of work. A F-16 Wild Weasel is also not a big difference to the normal Viper.
 
Ozair
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Thu Apr 16, 2020 9:20 pm

seahawk wrote:

The Growler can fulfil the jamming capability that Germany pledged to NATO, a ECR Typhoon could still replace the ECR Tornado in a SEAD role. Which would be a lot more simple from the amount of work. A F-16 Wild Weasel is also not a big difference to the normal Viper.

Based on the leaked articles on the previous page of this thread there likely will be no ECR Typhoon. If the plan is 45 SH/Growler and 90 Eurofighters then the Eurofighters will be conventional aircraft for the fighter and conventional strike roles (part replacement for Tranche One and part replacement for Tornado) while the SH will be for nuclear delivery and the Growlers for SEAD.

Who would fund ECR Eurofighter development if Germany isn’t buying it?
 
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LyleLanley
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Thu Apr 16, 2020 10:28 pm

Ozair wrote:
The F-15E is capable of HARM carriage, it just isn't a weapon they use in USAF service. Additionally the F-15SA FMS package included provision for Saudi Arabia acquiring the HARM (600 missiles here, https://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/s ... a-aircraft ) so clearly the airframe is capable. The SA/EX isn't a dedicated EW aircraft though like the G and has no external EW pod that would be a distinction. It appears though the Germans intend to use the Growler primarily as a SEAD platform as per their commitment to NATO. I agree 100% that the ability to plug into the US EW structure for the Growler is a key selling point for Germany, and perhaps Finland as well.

I don't think Russia considers the EX any more provocative than the SH. Russia didn't come out in outrage to Poland acquiring the F-35, something that would likely be more provocative than Germany acquiring any aircraft given the proximity and capability.


Absolutely, because that's what the block 50 Vipers are for. What I meant is although the E can carry anything a fighter can carry, similar to the F-117 having the capability to carry an AIM-9, the E carrying HARM would mean not just making sure all the equipment talks to each other properly but you also have to develop the TTPs to go along with it - and I'm skeptical of the Saudi's ability to do so, even with American air advisor help; Hunting SAMs is not like dropping a JDAM or an LGB on a relatively defenseless southern neighbor...

I get what you mean re: the F-35, but on a political scale Germany isn't Poland, especially to Russia. Also, when a COCOM can't get a carrier in his/her theater, a squadron or two of Strike Eagles will generally soothe their ruffled feathers... Super Hornets don't have the same effect. I've seen it repeatedly in PACOM and CENTCOM.
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ThePointblank
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Thu Apr 16, 2020 10:49 pm

LyleLanley wrote:
Ozair wrote:
The F-15E is capable of HARM carriage, it just isn't a weapon they use in USAF service. Additionally the F-15SA FMS package included provision for Saudi Arabia acquiring the HARM (600 missiles here, https://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/s ... a-aircraft ) so clearly the airframe is capable. The SA/EX isn't a dedicated EW aircraft though like the G and has no external EW pod that would be a distinction. It appears though the Germans intend to use the Growler primarily as a SEAD platform as per their commitment to NATO. I agree 100% that the ability to plug into the US EW structure for the Growler is a key selling point for Germany, and perhaps Finland as well.

I don't think Russia considers the EX any more provocative than the SH. Russia didn't come out in outrage to Poland acquiring the F-35, something that would likely be more provocative than Germany acquiring any aircraft given the proximity and capability.


Absolutely, because that's what the block 50 Vipers are for. What I meant is although the E can carry anything a fighter can carry, similar to the F-117 having the capability to carry an AIM-9, the E carrying HARM would mean not just making sure all the equipment talks to each other properly but you also have to develop the TTPs to go along with it - and I'm skeptical of the Saudi's ability to do so, even with American air advisor help; Hunting SAMs is not like dropping a JDAM or an LGB on a relatively defenseless southern neighbor...

I get what you mean re: the F-35, but on a political scale Germany isn't Poland, especially to Russia. Also, when a COCOM can't get a carrier in his/her theater, a squadron or two of Strike Eagles will generally soothe their ruffled feathers... Super Hornets don't have the same effect. I've seen it repeatedly in PACOM and CENTCOM.

Correct. You need additional gear to effectively hunt SAM's, and even then, only a small subset of the USAF's F-16 fleet are dedicated SEAD platforms, with a number of modifications to them which makes them slightly different than the rest of the F-16 fleet.

The modifications to the F-16 for SEAD / Wild Weasel operations include the following:
1. HARM avionics/Launcher Interface Computer for full, autonomous employment capability of the HARM missile;
2. Targeting pod; originally it was the Pave Penny, now it is Sniper XR or LITENING;
3. Fitting of the AN/ASQ-213 HARM targeting system to locate and track hostile radars;
4. Aircraft get the HAVE GLASS treatment for reduced radar RCS; a new ferromagnetic paint, plus a modified canopy with a slight gold tinge
 
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LyleLanley
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:48 am

ThePointblank wrote:
The modifications to the F-16 for SEAD / Wild Weasel operations include the following...


You forgot #5, which is a T/O weight waiver to carry the tremendous balls/boobs their pilots have. Much love and respect for the weasels - exceeded only by rescue.
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Ozair
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Fri Apr 17, 2020 3:45 am

LyleLanley wrote:
What I meant is although the E can carry anything a fighter can carry, similar to the F-117 having the capability to carry an AIM-9, the E carrying HARM would mean not just making sure all the equipment talks to each other properly but you also have to develop the TTPs to go along with it - and I'm skeptical of the Saudi's ability to do so, even with American air advisor help; Hunting SAMs is not like dropping a JDAM or an LGB on a relatively defenseless southern neighbor...

Agree 100% and that is why the Growler is a more appealing option as a SEAD platform. The Growler community is already practising that mission set and an FMS acquisition would let the Germans plug right into that structure.

LyleLanley wrote:
I get what you mean re: the F-35, but on a political scale Germany isn't Poland, especially to Russia. Also, when a COCOM can't get a carrier in his/her theater, a squadron or two of Strike Eagles will generally soothe their ruffled feathers... Super Hornets don't have the same effect. I've seen it repeatedly in PACOM and CENTCOM.

An interesting contrast, if a carrier isn’t available then send the F-15Es but all the carrier has offensively today is Super Hornet anyway.

As I said I really don’t think most nations, outside of China and North Korea who protest anything anyone else in the region acquires, care about specific aircraft types. In Germany’s case, given their maintainability woes, it probably won’t matter which aircraft they acquire as the back end issues will likely remain.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Fri Apr 17, 2020 5:33 am

Ozair wrote:
seahawk wrote:

The Growler can fulfil the jamming capability that Germany pledged to NATO, a ECR Typhoon could still replace the ECR Tornado in a SEAD role. Which would be a lot more simple from the amount of work. A F-16 Wild Weasel is also not a big difference to the normal Viper.

Based on the leaked articles on the previous page of this thread there likely will be no ECR Typhoon. If the plan is 45 SH/Growler and 90 Eurofighters then the Eurofighters will be conventional aircraft for the fighter and conventional strike roles (part replacement for Tranche One and part replacement for Tornado) while the SH will be for nuclear delivery and the Growlers for SEAD.

Who would fund ECR Eurofighter development if Germany isn’t buying it?


If you look at the 3 proposed configurations the SEAD does not need much work: https://www.bdli.de/sites/default/files ... EU_web.pdf

The ELS will be up-graded anyway with the DASS up-grade and apart from that it would be the integration of AARGM and Spear, the later is planed for the attack version any way.
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:22 pm

Inching closer to an actual order, the plan appears to be 30 Super Hornets, 15 Growlers:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/germany-orde ... 46385.html

(Bloomberg) -- Germany will order 45 fighter aircraft from Boeing Co. to replace the Luftwaffe’s aging Tornado jets, Der Spiegel magazine reported Sunday.

Defense Minister Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer emailed her U.S. counterpart Mark Esper on Thursday to inform him of the decision, the magazine said, without identifying the source of its information. Germany will order 30 F/A-18 Super Hornets and 15 EA-18G Growlers, the report added.
 
Reddevil556
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:02 pm

ThePointblank wrote:
Inching closer to an actual order, the plan appears to be 30 Super Hornets, 15 Growlers:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/germany-orde ... 46385.html

(Bloomberg) -- Germany will order 45 fighter aircraft from Boeing Co. to replace the Luftwaffe’s aging Tornado jets, Der Spiegel magazine reported Sunday.

Defense Minister Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer emailed her U.S. counterpart Mark Esper on Thursday to inform him of the decision, the magazine said, without identifying the source of its information. Germany will order 30 F/A-18 Super Hornets and 15 EA-18G Growlers, the report added.


Just saw the article this morning, good for the F-18 program. Probably saved Germany a fortune vs a program like the F-35
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SuperiorPilotMe
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:40 pm

Reddevil556 wrote:

Just saw the article this morning, good for the F-18 program. Probably saved Germany a fortune vs a program like the F-35


:roll:

At least as far as military procurement goes, this is a canard if there ever was one.

If you want to fly with that canard about F-35 procurement costs, that has been beaten to death in the F-35 thread (all of them).

As for saving the Super Hornet program, under normal circumstances I would point out that Boeing doesn't need saving, resembling more a monopoly in everything but name, but there is serious discussion of Boeing entering bankruptcy and I didn't even think, as Ozair pointed out, that the SH is more export-friendly than the F-15 (especially with all the high-end F-15 orders, but those are going to air forces that don't bat an eye about buying expensive military hardware, almost as if they were toys in which, in alot of ways, they're treated exactly as such). That said I'm not a fan of Boeing by any means, and I feel events throughout the years have vindicated my attitude.
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Reddevil556
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:48 pm

SuperiorPilotMe wrote:
Reddevil556 wrote:

Just saw the article this morning, good for the F-18 program. Probably saved Germany a fortune vs a program like the F-35


:roll:

At least as far as military procurement goes, this is a canard if there ever was one.

If you want to fly with that canard about F-35 procurement costs, that has been beaten to death in the F-35 thread (all of them).

As for saving the Super Hornet program, under normal circumstances I would point out that Boeing doesn't need saving, resembling more a monopoly in everything but name, but there is serious discussion of Boeing entering bankruptcy and I didn't even think, as Ozair pointed out, that the SH is more export-friendly than the F-15 (especially with all the high-end F-15 orders, but those are going to air forces that don't bat an eye about buying expensive military hardware, almost as if they were toys in which, in alot of ways, they're treated exactly as such). That said I'm not a fan of Boeing by any means, and I feel events throughout the years have vindicated my attitude.


Seems like sour grapes and a nerve has been struck.
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SuperiorPilotMe
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:06 pm

Reddevil556 wrote:

Seems like sour grapes and a nerve has been struck.


Very easy claim to make from someone who can't even be bothered to isolate the relevant quote.
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SQ22
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:22 pm

Reuters is reporting up to 45 F-18 (no further breakup) and 93 Eurofighter, but in a German only link they are reporting that according to the Ministry of Defence the order is likely not going to happen in this legislative period, but in the next, 2021 or 2022 are mentioned.

German plan sees Eurofighter, F-18 mix replacing Tornado: source

Beschluss über neue Kampfjets womöglich erst nach Bundestagswahl
 
Reddevil556
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:51 pm

SuperiorPilotMe wrote:
Reddevil556 wrote:

Seems like sour grapes and a nerve has been struck.


Very easy claim to make from someone who can't even be bothered to isolate the relevant quote.


Nah the rolling eyes did it.
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trex8
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:00 pm

SQ22 wrote:
Reuters is reporting up to 45 F-18 (no further breakup) and 93 Eurofighter, but in a German only link they are reporting that according to the Ministry of Defence the order is likely not going to happen in this legislative period, but in the next, 2021 or 2022 are mentioned.

German plan sees Eurofighter, F-18 mix replacing Tornado: source

Beschluss über neue Kampfjets womöglich erst nach Bundestagswahl

30 Super hornets and 15 Growlers accoridng to this report
https://www.defense-aerospace.com/artic ... rnado.html
 
vr773
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:14 pm

The political fight in Germany is about to escalate and it will likely center around nuclear sharing. Latest development: AKK contacted Esper to inform him about Germany‘s “intent“ to buy F-18s. Some media articles and the SPD claimed that she “confirmed“ the purchase when communicating with Esper. The German Defense Ministry denies that of course, because that would be illegal because it would circumvent the German parliament. The ministry confirmed that they will start the parliamentary process about the Tornado replacement this week.

At that point, the SPD is expected to make a play to pull out of the nuclear sharing agreement. Nuclear sharing is fairly unpopular among Germans. We‘ll see how that ends but the decision will likely be made in the next couple of weeks. (But yes, the actual purchase won‘t happen until 2021/2022)
 
mxaxai
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Tue Apr 21, 2020 5:51 pm

AKK formally presented the plan to buy 45 F-18 and 93 Eurofighters to the parties' representatives today.
Opposition parties in Germany (as well as the SPD as part of the government) have voiced criticism. Their main problem is that the parliament was not involved in the creation of this plan at any point. They're not happy that AKK presented a fully finished plan to the industry and even US politicians before asking the German parliament.

Also, the mail to US Secretary of Defence Mark Esper didn't read "we want to buy 45 F-18" but "we would like to buy new fighter aircraft, and one third of the total order will be built in the US" - obviously something completely different :wink2: .
 
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Devilfish
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Tue Apr 21, 2020 10:22 pm

The intended split buy would go ahead according to this.....

https://www.flightglobal.com/defence/ge ... 03.article
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FW200
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Tue Apr 21, 2020 10:32 pm

 
Ozair
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Apr 22, 2020 12:37 am

Devilfish wrote:
The intended split buy would go ahead according to this.....

https://www.flightglobal.com/defence/ge ... 03.article

Now we wait for the DSCA announcement and the surprise at the DSCA price for the acquisition...

Any insight into what will happen with the Eurofighter purchase, Tranche 3Bs with CAPTOR-E or will they look to dev and deliver a Tranche 4?
 
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Slug71
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:27 am

I can see why this decision was made, but I'm a little surprised they didnt go with the Rafale.
 
Ozair
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:02 am

Slug71 wrote:
I can see why this decision was made, but I'm a little surprised they didnt go with the Rafale.

??? Assume you are making a joke at Keesje's expense?

Rafale was never an option. It was always all Eurofighter or Eurofighter and US aircraft split.
 
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par13del
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:50 am

LyleLanley wrote:
Plus, it would be waaaay too expensive to go with the G for SEAD and the Strike Eagle for nuke sharing. Not to mention the Strike Eagle is a LOT more provocative, being more capable offensively, than the SH.

Does not look like capability is the key factor, as already stated, the Eagle can do SEAD and it can also do the Eurofighter mission in a pinch, the Hornet cannot.
If finalized, it is what it is....
 
mxaxai
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Apr 22, 2020 8:20 am

Ozair wrote:
Any insight into what will happen with the Eurofighter purchase, Tranche 3Bs with CAPTOR-E or will they look to dev and deliver a Tranche 4?

The plan as of late 2019 was to retrofit Tranche 2 and 3a with an AESA radar from 2022 onwards, and to receive Tranche 4 with the AESA radar starting in 2024. (The wording in the acquisition and development report is a bit ambiguous, it could also mean that they want to retrofit Tranche 4 with the radar in 2024.) It seems likely that this will be given the Tranche 4 designation (as it is used in several reports) but the changes compared to Tranche 3a will be small, mostly the stuff that is being / is planned to be retrofitted to those aircraft.

Sidenote: Per that report, the Eurofighter Tranche 2 / 3 / 4 upgrade package incl. AESA radar is only 159 months late and 6.9 bln € over budget compared to the plan as first presented to the parliament ... obviously the difference to the actual contract is considerably less (23 months, 700 mln €).
 
kelval
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Apr 22, 2020 8:30 am

Slug71 wrote:
I can see why this decision was made, but I'm a little surprised they didnt go with the Rafale.


I don't think the Rafale was ever seriously considered.
 
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LyleLanley
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:59 pm

par13del wrote:
LyleLanley wrote:
Plus, it would be waaaay too expensive to go with the G for SEAD and the Strike Eagle for nuke sharing. Not to mention the Strike Eagle is a LOT more provocative, being more capable offensively, than the SH.

Does not look like capability is the key factor, as already stated, the Eagle can do SEAD and it can also do the Eurofighter mission in a pinch, the Hornet cannot.
If finalized, it is what it is....


I get where you’re coming from but there’s a difference between the technical ability to carry a missile and having a ready mission-set. Right now the Strike Eagle is the former, having the ability to carry HARM, but not having TTPs or the equipment integration to do SEAD. And I have serious doubts of the Saudis doing this right. If you’re talking deep interdiction or CAS, then it’s not only properly equipped but the crews are trained to that standard.

The best analogy is can think of is the F-117: it was capable of hauling two AIM-9s internally and it’s SMS can talk to it and release it, but it was never a real capability as TTPs weren’t developed nor were crews ever trained for it.
"I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrook, and, by gum, it put them on the map!"
 
Ozair
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:30 pm

mxaxai wrote:
Ozair wrote:
Any insight into what will happen with the Eurofighter purchase, Tranche 3Bs with CAPTOR-E or will they look to dev and deliver a Tranche 4?

The plan as of late 2019 was to retrofit Tranche 2 and 3a with an AESA radar from 2022 onwards, and to receive Tranche 4 with the AESA radar starting in 2024. (The wording in the acquisition and development report is a bit ambiguous, it could also mean that they want to retrofit Tranche 4 with the radar in 2024.) It seems likely that this will be given the Tranche 4 designation (as it is used in several reports) but the changes compared to Tranche 3a will be small, mostly the stuff that is being / is planned to be retrofitted to those aircraft.

Sidenote: Per that report, the Eurofighter Tranche 2 / 3 / 4 upgrade package incl. AESA radar is only 159 months late and 6.9 bln € over budget compared to the plan as first presented to the parliament ... obviously the difference to the actual contract is considerably less (23 months, 700 mln €).

Do you have a link to that report and apologies if you provided it already to me, I don't remember reading it. Assume it is in German?
 
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Slug71
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:10 am

Ozair wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
I can see why this decision was made, but I'm a little surprised they didnt go with the Rafale.

??? Assume you are making a joke at Keesje's expense?

Rafale was never an option. It was always all Eurofighter or Eurofighter and US aircraft split.


No it wasn't, but simply to improve/build upon the relationship going forward to the FCAS.
 
Ozair
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Thu Apr 23, 2020 3:01 am

Slug71 wrote:
Ozair wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
I can see why this decision was made, but I'm a little surprised they didnt go with the Rafale.

??? Assume you are making a joke at Keesje's expense?

Rafale was never an option. It was always all Eurofighter or Eurofighter and US aircraft split.


No it wasn't, but simply to improve/build upon the relationship going forward to the FCAS.

Why does the relationship need to improve or be built? Based on that logic France should buy Eurofighters as well, to improve the relationship?
 
Ozair
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Thu Apr 23, 2020 3:45 am

LyleLanley wrote:
par13del wrote:
LyleLanley wrote:
Plus, it would be waaaay too expensive to go with the G for SEAD and the Strike Eagle for nuke sharing. Not to mention the Strike Eagle is a LOT more provocative, being more capable offensively, than the SH.

Does not look like capability is the key factor, as already stated, the Eagle can do SEAD and it can also do the Eurofighter mission in a pinch, the Hornet cannot.
If finalized, it is what it is....


I get where you’re coming from but there’s a difference between the technical ability to carry a missile and having a ready mission-set. Right now the Strike Eagle is the former, having the ability to carry HARM, but not having TTPs or the equipment integration to do SEAD. And I have serious doubts of the Saudis doing this right. If you’re talking deep interdiction or CAS, then it’s not only properly equipped but the crews are trained to that standard.

The best analogy is can think of is the F-117: it was capable of hauling two AIM-9s internally and it’s SMS can talk to it and release it, but it was never a real capability as TTPs weren’t developed nor were crews ever trained for it.

Given how long this saga has been going on it is no wonder some of us forgot that Germany were offered the F-15 by Boeing. Boeing offerred both the SH and the F-15 back in 2018 with the F-15 eliminated about the same time as the F-35.

Germany set to acquire 138 Eurofighters and Super Hornets/Growlers

...

For the Tornado replacement programme, the Luftwaffe is looking to retire its 90 Tornado Interdiction and Strike (IDS)/Electronic Combat Reconnaissance (ECR) aircraft from 2030. A request for proposals (RFP) for 85 new aircraft to perform 10 current Tornado missions and two additional but undisclosed missions (one of which is understood to be the nuclear delivery mission) was issued in early 2018. The Eurofighter, Super Hornet/Growler, Boeing F-15 Advanced Eagle, and Lockheed Martin F-35A Lightning II were all put forward, with all but the Eurofighter and Super Hornet/Growler being discounted for operational and/or political reasons. A formal announcement (either a type-selection or contract) is expected in the coming weeks.

https://www.janes.com/article/95678/ger ... s-growlers
 
mxaxai
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Thu Apr 23, 2020 11:57 am

Ozair wrote:
Do you have a link to that report and apologies if you provided it already to me, I don't remember reading it. Assume it is in German?

Apologies, I thought I had provided it previously but it appears that this is not the case. The report is titled "10. Bericht des Bundesministeriums der Verteidigung zu Rüstungsangelegenheiten, Teil 1" dated December 2019, Berlin. Yes, it is in German. The title translates as "10th report of the ministry of defence regarding military equipment, part 1." These reports are published every 6 months (part 1 is the public part, and a classified part 2 exists).

You can find them here: https://www.bmvg.de/de/themen/ruestung/ ... ngsbericht
From the latest report pages 70-71, translation courtesy of Google:
AESA Radar: Due to limited resources, complex software development has resulted in delays, the effects of which have been examined and necessary mitigations have been developed and closely monitored by the authorities. Retrofits to the German EUROFIGHTER from 2022 can still be implemented. In order to cover the operational requirements of all nations, a joint, four-national further development of the AESA radar including a multi-channel receiver (MCR) is to be commissioned.
...
Due to changes in performance / improvements (including obsolescence elimination, development of EURODASS, role adjustment, integration of METEOR), the costs have increased by 697 million euros compared to the original estimate.

The EUROFIGHTER project with AESA radar is currently in the implementation and usage phase. With the intended replacement procurement of the tranche 1 truck (program name "Quadriga"), the implementation phase will continue. In August 2019, the industry was officially invited to offer a replacement for Tranche 1. The goal is to get the new trucks aircraft in as quickly as possible.
...
Tranche 1 aircraft are already affected by technical obsolescences, which reduce the availability of these aircraft and can thus have a qualitative and quantitative impact on the currently planned national and NATO capabilities. For this reason, the decision was made to replace EUROFIGHTER of Tranche 1 with EUROFIGHTER in the latest configuration (Tranche 4). The selection decision for this was made in July 2019 and thus enables the subsequent process steps to be implemented. The development of the AESA radar commissioned by all EUROFIGHTER partner nations is progressing. The aim is still to upgrade to the German EUROFIGHTERs in tranches 2 and 3a from 2022 and to upgrade to the new tranche 4 from 2024.
...
National manufacturing capacities are currently being used until the delivery of Tranche 3a has ended. The planned tranche 4 will then be responsible for further utilization. The utilization of the corresponding national engineering capacities takes place in the EUROFIGHTER project in the context of usage-related development work through extensive modifications and further developments. Innovative defense technology from Germany will be used in this way. With the program development and retrofit of the AESA radar in conjunction with a multi-channel receiver, the weapon system EUROFIGHTER will meet the capability requirements of the Air Force for a multi-role aircraft in the future. In terms of armaments policy, key technologies from the area of ​​reconnaissance sensors are being further developed and secured for Germany, the availability of which is of essential security interest for the Federal Republic of Germany.
 
stratable
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:59 pm

Just out of curiosity a scenario I was thinking of.
Going to war in a, for Germany, realistic setting like Afghanistan. Now you have Growlers, Super Hornets and Typhoons available.
Would you even bring the Super Hornets or just leave them in Germany (for their nuclear role). Are there missions (excluding nuclear) where the Super Hornet
may be preferred over the Typhoon?

The article below says the Super Hornet's only role would be nuclear (it's more a commentary piece, in German only). Do you need a 30-aircraft strong fleet for 20 bombs or are they going to use the Super Hornets for other scenarios too?
https://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/ame ... 62674.html
A313 319/20/21 332/3 343 359 B734/8 742/4/4M 752/3 763ER 772/E/W 787-8/-9 CRJ900 CS300 ERJ-145 F70 Q100/300/400
 
GDB
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Fri Apr 24, 2020 6:28 pm

stratable wrote:
Just out of curiosity a scenario I was thinking of.
Going to war in a, for Germany, realistic setting like Afghanistan. Now you have Growlers, Super Hornets and Typhoons available.
Would you even bring the Super Hornets or just leave them in Germany (for their nuclear role). Are there missions (excluding nuclear) where the Super Hornet
may be preferred over the Typhoon?

The article below says the Super Hornet's only role would be nuclear (it's more a commentary piece, in German only). Do you need a 30-aircraft strong fleet for 20 bombs or are they going to use the Super Hornets for other scenarios too?
https://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/ame ... 62674.html


A very good question, while I am aware that the whole nuclear sharing role is controversial in Germany, it was even during the Cold War,
This German commentator, though usually covering history, brings his take with the (to us) byzantine coalition politics and military procurement in Germany, don't be fooled by the title, he goes on to delve deeper into the issue. No does not mean 'no'.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7NuNDlJBBI
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:22 am

stratable wrote:
Just out of curiosity a scenario I was thinking of.
Going to war in a, for Germany, realistic setting like Afghanistan. Now you have Growlers, Super Hornets and Typhoons available.
Would you even bring the Super Hornets or just leave them in Germany (for their nuclear role). Are there missions (excluding nuclear) where the Super Hornet
may be preferred over the Typhoon?

The article below says the Super Hornet's only role would be nuclear (it's more a commentary piece, in German only). Do you need a 30-aircraft strong fleet for 20 bombs or are they going to use the Super Hornets for other scenarios too?
https://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/ame ... 62674.html

The Germans are also planning on 15 Growlers.

I would imagine for the force structure, at least 10 Super Hornets would act as lead in trainers for both the nuclear delivery role aircraft, and for the Growlers. Probably 5-6 based in the US for training, with about 4-5 as operational spares.
 
stratable
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:22 pm

Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Sat Apr 25, 2020 5:16 am

Thanks for the detailed response guys!
I was also wondering what we know about aircraft capabilities:
Would you even bring the Super Hornets to places like Afghanistan or just leave them in Germany (for their nuclear role). Are there missions (excluding nuclear) where the Super Hornet
may be preferred over the Typhoon? (in terms of the Super Hornet being a more capable platform) - does anybody have any insight on that?
A313 319/20/21 332/3 343 359 B734/8 742/4/4M 752/3 763ER 772/E/W 787-8/-9 CRJ900 CS300 ERJ-145 F70 Q100/300/400
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Sat Apr 25, 2020 5:47 am

stratable wrote:
Thanks for the detailed response guys!
I was also wondering what we know about aircraft capabilities:
Would you even bring the Super Hornets to places like Afghanistan or just leave them in Germany (for their nuclear role). Are there missions (excluding nuclear) where the Super Hornet
may be preferred over the Typhoon? (in terms of the Super Hornet being a more capable platform) - does anybody have any insight on that?

The Germans tended to not engage in actual combat operations; even over Afghanistan, their Tornado's were Recce only.

The only sort of actual shooting the Germans engaged with their Tornado's was during Operation Allied Force; German Tornado ECR's were escorting and providing SEAD for Allied strike packages by suppressing Serb SAM's.
 
stratable
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:22 pm

Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:16 am

ThePointblank wrote:
stratable wrote:
Thanks for the detailed response guys!
I was also wondering what we know about aircraft capabilities:
Would you even bring the Super Hornets to places like Afghanistan or just leave them in Germany (for their nuclear role). Are there missions (excluding nuclear) where the Super Hornet
may be preferred over the Typhoon? (in terms of the Super Hornet being a more capable platform) - does anybody have any insight on that?

The Germans tended to not engage in actual combat operations; even over Afghanistan, their Tornado's were Recce only.

The only sort of actual shooting the Germans engaged with their Tornado's was during Operation Allied Force; German Tornado ECR's were escorting and providing SEAD for Allied strike packages by suppressing Serb SAM's.

Thanks for the info, I was kind off aware of the fact that the Germans don't do a lot of actual shooting. But I was really more interested in aircraft capabilities here
A313 319/20/21 332/3 343 359 B734/8 742/4/4M 752/3 763ER 772/E/W 787-8/-9 CRJ900 CS300 ERJ-145 F70 Q100/300/400
 
Ozair
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Sun Apr 26, 2020 12:04 am

stratable wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
stratable wrote:
Thanks for the detailed response guys!
I was also wondering what we know about aircraft capabilities:
Would you even bring the Super Hornets to places like Afghanistan or just leave them in Germany (for their nuclear role). Are there missions (excluding nuclear) where the Super Hornet
may be preferred over the Typhoon? (in terms of the Super Hornet being a more capable platform) - does anybody have any insight on that?

The Germans tended to not engage in actual combat operations; even over Afghanistan, their Tornado's were Recce only.

The only sort of actual shooting the Germans engaged with their Tornado's was during Operation Allied Force; German Tornado ECR's were escorting and providing SEAD for Allied strike packages by suppressing Serb SAM's.

Thanks for the info, I was kind off aware of the fact that the Germans don't do a lot of actual shooting. But I was really more interested in aircraft capabilities here

From a capabilities perspective the aircraft are close in some areas and apart in others. A look at a few areas;

Radar - SH has had an AESA for a long time, it is a reasonable size and is likely now very stable and capable. Eurofighter still doesn't have an AESA, the CAPTOR-E is yet to be installed on a production aircraft for operational use. The CAPTOR-E will also be a reasonable size but I expect it will have a few years of maturing before it is as effective as others currently on the market. The SH AESA is fix mounted at an RCS reduced angle, this may slightly reduce some of its effectiveness against A2G targets. The Eurofighter will mount their AESA so it can still mechanically rotate. Worse RCS performance but improved off angle targeting especially for A2A work. There is also the risk the mechanical mount will jam, a not uncommon issue with current non AESA radars.

RCS - Probably favours the SH but after you load both aircraft up with external tanks and weapons they are likely very similar.

IRST - SH will have it mounted in a fuel tank on the centerline, if Germany actually buy the option. Eurofighter has PIRATE IRST which is capable and effective but I don't believe most/any German Eurofighters are actually equipped with PIRATE. Perhaps Germany will buy PIRATE or an upgraded version for the next batch of 93?

Speed - Eurofighter is definitely faster and an excellent supersonic performer with a very impressive thrust to weight ratio. SH struggles supersonic because of canted pylons.

Manoeuvrability - Both are 9G airframes but the SH has the ability to pull much greater AoA. In a WVR fight I would give the edge to the SH, in a BVR fight I would give the edge to the Eurofighter as its speed would allow it to launch weapons further away and also support those with the mechanically moving AESA.

Range - The Blk III SH probably has a range advantage with the conformal tanks. The Eurofighter can be equipped with them but again Germany has to buy the option.

HMD - Both had HMS, probably equal in capability.

Weapons - SH has slightly more weapons integrated but Eurofighter is also pretty good. Problem is Germany has acquired few A2G weapons for the aircraft. Who knows how many Germany will acquire for the SH. The SH likely has a better payload range capability as the Eurofighter often has to trade fuel for heavy weapons. Conformals for the Eurofighter would assist greatly here. Interesting question will be whether Germany looks to integrate the Taurus KEPD 350 onto the SH or acquire maybe JASSMER? Also if the KEPD 350 will be integrated to German Eurofighters. Germany will also have to decide if they want to integrate Meteor onto the SH or keep that for the Eurofighter only.

Avionics/Cockpit - Probably edges to the SH here. Eurofighter started with some voice cockpit work but an interview with a German Eurofighter pilot on Fighter Pilot Podcast indicated the Eurofighter cockpit layout and use wasn't as easy, intuitive or capable as an F-16 and the SH is, IMO, an improvement over the F-16.

In the end the pilot is the one that would matter if the two aircraft ever met each other in a conflict.

As for how Germany will use them. I would be surprised if they dedicate the 30 SH for the nuclear role only. I expect they will do the standard A2G work of the Tornado fleet with the same weapons and have the nuclear role as just one of their A2G mission sets. I also expect they will train themselves given the whole fleet are F models. The RAAF has fewer F models and conducts their own conversion training. I expect Growler pilots will transition/train in the US to learn the specifics of the SEAD mission in the Growler.

Finally, Denmark evaluated both aircraft as part of their competition, below is what they found.

Image

Image

The above is not for the SH Blk III or a potentially enhanced Eurofighter though.
 
Ozair
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Sun Apr 26, 2020 12:58 am

mxaxai wrote:
Ozair wrote:
Do you have a link to that report and apologies if you provided it already to me, I don't remember reading it. Assume it is in German?

Apologies, I thought I had provided it previously but it appears that this is not the case. The report is titled "10. Bericht des Bundesministeriums der Verteidigung zu Rüstungsangelegenheiten, Teil 1" dated December 2019, Berlin. Yes, it is in German. The title translates as "10th report of the ministry of defence regarding military equipment, part 1." These reports are published every 6 months (part 1 is the public part, and a classified part 2 exists).

You can find them here: https://www.bmvg.de/de/themen/ruestung/ ... ngsbericht
From the latest report pages 70-71, translation courtesy of Google:
AESA Radar: Due to limited resources, complex software development has resulted in delays, the effects of which have been examined and necessary mitigations have been developed and closely monitored by the authorities. Retrofits to the German EUROFIGHTER from 2022 can still be implemented. In order to cover the operational requirements of all nations, a joint, four-national further development of the AESA radar including a multi-channel receiver (MCR) is to be commissioned.
...
Due to changes in performance / improvements (including obsolescence elimination, development of EURODASS, role adjustment, integration of METEOR), the costs have increased by 697 million euros compared to the original estimate.

The EUROFIGHTER project with AESA radar is currently in the implementation and usage phase. With the intended replacement procurement of the tranche 1 truck (program name "Quadriga"), the implementation phase will continue. In August 2019, the industry was officially invited to offer a replacement for Tranche 1. The goal is to get the new trucks aircraft in as quickly as possible.
...
Tranche 1 aircraft are already affected by technical obsolescences, which reduce the availability of these aircraft and can thus have a qualitative and quantitative impact on the currently planned national and NATO capabilities. For this reason, the decision was made to replace EUROFIGHTER of Tranche 1 with EUROFIGHTER in the latest configuration (Tranche 4). The selection decision for this was made in July 2019 and thus enables the subsequent process steps to be implemented. The development of the AESA radar commissioned by all EUROFIGHTER partner nations is progressing. The aim is still to upgrade to the German EUROFIGHTERs in tranches 2 and 3a from 2022 and to upgrade to the new tranche 4 from 2024.
...
National manufacturing capacities are currently being used until the delivery of Tranche 3a has ended. The planned tranche 4 will then be responsible for further utilization. The utilization of the corresponding national engineering capacities takes place in the EUROFIGHTER project in the context of usage-related development work through extensive modifications and further developments. Innovative defense technology from Germany will be used in this way. With the program development and retrofit of the AESA radar in conjunction with a multi-channel receiver, the weapon system EUROFIGHTER will meet the capability requirements of the Air Force for a multi-role aircraft in the future. In terms of armaments policy, key technologies from the area of ​​reconnaissance sensors are being further developed and secured for Germany, the availability of which is of essential security interest for the Federal Republic of Germany.

Thanks, that was a very interesting read!
 
stratable
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:22 pm

Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:23 am

Ozair wrote:
stratable wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
.


From a capabilities perspective the aircraft are close in some areas and apart in others. A look at a few areas;
.


Thanks for the detailed response!
A313 319/20/21 332/3 343 359 B734/8 742/4/4M 752/3 763ER 772/E/W 787-8/-9 CRJ900 CS300 ERJ-145 F70 Q100/300/400
 
stratable
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:22 pm

Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Fri May 01, 2020 5:41 am

The English Wikipedia page on the Typhoon states that the aerodynamic modification kit studied around 2014 (Improved handling with high weapon loads and higher manoeuvrability) would be part of the German order for the new Typhoons we’re discussing here. There’s no source in the Wikipedia article, is this confirmed news?
Any ideas on the thrust vectoring concept they were studying? There were also rumours of a thrust increase on the engines?
A313 319/20/21 332/3 343 359 B734/8 742/4/4M 752/3 763ER 772/E/W 787-8/-9 CRJ900 CS300 ERJ-145 F70 Q100/300/400
 
Ozair
Posts: 5298
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Fri May 01, 2020 7:07 am

stratable wrote:
The English Wikipedia page on the Typhoon states that the aerodynamic modification kit studied around 2014 (Improved handling with high weapon loads and higher manoeuvrability) would be part of the German order for the new Typhoons we’re discussing here. There’s no source in the Wikipedia article, is this confirmed news?

You are referring to the AMK, https://www.flightglobal.com/airbus-dan ... 38.article

Plenty of info at the article above and some more info here, http://www.dmitryshulgin.com/tag/eurofighter-typhoon/

I'm not aware of any nation that has taken up the option including Qatar and Kuwait. It could possibly be on the new German Eurofighter order if Germany is willing to either take a new subfleet or upgrade the rest of the fleet to this standard.

stratable wrote:
Any ideas on the thrust vectoring concept they were studying? There were also rumours of a thrust increase on the engines?

Plenty of articles over a long period of time on a thrust increase but it has never been funded. Same with the thrust vectoring, I have seen numerous studies but nothing has gone beyond concept. I don't expect either will be funded and implemented for the next German Eurofighter order.
 
steman
Posts: 1642
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2000 4:55 pm

Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Fri May 01, 2020 7:50 am

The AMK seems to be such a limited modification but with an impressive effect on Flight characteristics. I don´t understand why it hasn´t been implemented. From the articles and the pictures it just seems to consist in modified leading edge root extension and fuselage strakes. It also looks like it could be done at depot level and not in the factories. Also curious why it is not offered as standard on new built examples.
 
Ozair
Posts: 5298
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Fri May 01, 2020 8:27 am

steman wrote:
The AMK seems to be such a limited modification but with an impressive effect on Flight characteristics. I don´t understand why it hasn´t been implemented. From the articles and the pictures it just seems to consist in modified leading edge root extension and fuselage strakes. It also looks like it could be done at depot level and not in the factories. Also curious why it is not offered as standard on new built examples.

Because it introduces a new aerodynamic capability to the jet. The flow on effect is rewrite of a lot of the manuals, training syllabus, different maintenance inspections because the aircraft is now flying differently and new parts and structures will undergo different stresses, different TTPs for how to fly and fight the aircraft, retraining your whole body of aircrew to understand and accept the new variant or having a separate caste of pilots trained on an aerodynamically different jet, potentially requalifying all the weapons, pods and tanks etc.

Yes the modification is small but the impact is large.

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