Updated: Germany selects F-35 and Eurofighter Typhoon for Tornado replacement

tommy1808 · Mon Jan 10, 2022 12:28 pm

SeamanBeaumont wrote:
It’s the Germans, nothing gets upgraded…

The F4s have been upgraded twice, the Tornado is at ASSTA 3 as well.

best regards
Thomas

Flyglobal · Tue Jan 11, 2022 12:30 pm

Accoring to some news in Germany- The F35 is now in evaluation as well for Tornado replacement.

FlapOperator · Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:40 pm

Flyglobal wrote:
Accoring to some news in Germany- The F35 is now in evaluation as well for Tornado replacement.

That's completely unsurprising, though, if you look at some of the publicly available doctrinal stuff from the Luftwaffe, they really like electronic attack, and the EA-18 is the best available platform for that on the planet. So, if you're getting EA-18s, the Rhino then makes sense on a host of other levels.

Buying the F-35 changes that calculus a bit.

mxaxai · Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:58 pm

Boeing still sees a future for their Super Hornet bid and has sent an RFI to multiple German companies for industrial cooperation. https://boeing.mediaroom.com/news-relea ... tem=130986

ThePointblank · Fri Feb 04, 2022 4:16 pm

The Germans are reportedly leaning towards F-35, but no final decision has been made:

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ge ... 022-02-03/

art · Fri Feb 04, 2022 5:50 pm

ThePointblank wrote:
The Germans are reportedly leaning towards F-35, but no final decision has been made:

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ge ... 022-02-03/

This could get very expensive if 2 different types were used for nuclear and EW roles (F-35 and Growler).

ThePointblank · Fri Feb 04, 2022 8:04 pm

art wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
The Germans are reportedly leaning towards F-35, but no final decision has been made:

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ge ... 022-02-03/

This could get very expensive if 2 different types were used for nuclear and EW roles (F-35 and Growler).

The F-35 is very competent at EW as well, and of course, they could probably adopt some of the Israeli mods to beef up the EW capacities as well.

SeamanBeaumont · Fri Feb 04, 2022 9:24 pm

art wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
The Germans are reportedly leaning towards F-35, but no final decision has been made:

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ge ... 022-02-03/

This could get very expensive if 2 different types were used for nuclear and EW roles (F-35 and Growler).

The Germans are on the hook to NATO for SEAD but USAF SEAD is done by F-16CJ and now F-35 so I expect NATO would accept F-35 in that role.

Growler of course does more specific and broader EW but feels like if the Germans do go F-35 then they throw Airbus a bone and pay to develop Eurofighter ECR. Claim could be helping FCAS dev or something.

art · Fri Feb 04, 2022 10:34 pm

SeamanBeaumont wrote:
art wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
The Germans are reportedly leaning towards F-35, but no final decision has been made:

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ge ... 022-02-03/

This could get very expensive if 2 different types were used for nuclear and EW roles (F-35 and Growler).

The Germans are on the hook to NATO for SEAD but USAF SEAD is done by F-16CJ and now F-35 so I expect NATO would accept F-35 in that role.

Growler of course does more specific and broader EW but feels like if the Germans do go F-35 then they throw Airbus a bone and pay to develop Eurofighter ECR. Claim could be helping FCAS dev or something.

I was thinking it might make sense to go F-35 and develop EW for Eurofighter in conjunction with FCAS efforts but I then wondered whether the politics (UK, Italian involvement in Tempest) would make it impractical.

SeamanBeaumont · Fri Feb 04, 2022 11:50 pm

art wrote:
SeamanBeaumont wrote:
art wrote:

This could get very expensive if 2 different types were used for nuclear and EW roles (F-35 and Growler).

The Germans are on the hook to NATO for SEAD but USAF SEAD is done by F-16CJ and now F-35 so I expect NATO would accept F-35 in that role.

Growler of course does more specific and broader EW but feels like if the Germans do go F-35 then they throw Airbus a bone and pay to develop Eurofighter ECR. Claim could be helping FCAS dev or something.

I was thinking it might make sense to go F-35 and develop EW for Eurofighter in conjunction with FCAS efforts but I then wondered whether the politics (UK, Italian involvement in Tempest) would make it impractical.

Shouldn't be. They are already split on radar now between Germany and UK/Italy variants so a specific EW version for Germany isn't an issue. Issue is Germany has to pay for full dev unless they get the Saudi's or another partner to stump up some cash. Given current German Saudi relations seems unlikely to get any cash from them...

art · Sat Feb 05, 2022 12:36 pm

SeamanBeaumont wrote:
art wrote:
SeamanBeaumont wrote:
The Germans are on the hook to NATO for SEAD but USAF SEAD is done by F-16CJ and now F-35 so I expect NATO would accept F-35 in that role.

Growler of course does more specific and broader EW but feels like if the Germans do go F-35 then they throw Airbus a bone and pay to develop Eurofighter ECR. Claim could be helping FCAS dev or something.

I was thinking it might make sense to go F-35 and develop EW for Eurofighter in conjunction with FCAS efforts but I then wondered whether the politics (UK, Italian involvement in Tempest) would make it impractical.

Shouldn't be. They are already split on radar now between Germany and UK/Italy variants so a specific EW version for Germany isn't an issue. Issue is Germany has to pay for full dev unless they get the Saudi's or another partner to stump up some cash. Given current German Saudi relations seems unlikely to get any cash from them...

Indeed. As I understand things Germany does not sanction supply of further Typhoons to SA. Why would SA be interested in funding development of a system for an aircraft it cannot buy?

SeamanBeaumont · Sat Feb 05, 2022 8:07 pm

art wrote:
Why would SA be interested in funding development of a system for an aircraft it cannot buy?

That is why I said they wouldn't...

The Saudi's have more aircraft than all three other export buyers combined but if Saudi's aren't paying unlikely the others would either.

columba · Mon Feb 14, 2022 6:57 am

Germany is about to discuss a potential order for 30 F-35A fighter jets:
https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/3016 ... ted-states

tommy1808 · Mon Feb 14, 2022 8:00 am

columba wrote:
Germany is about to discuss a potential order for 30 F-35A fighter jets:
https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/3016 ... ted-states

which begs the question where the jammers will go, onto the F-35s or the Typhoon. And which ones....

best regards
Thomas

mxaxai · Mon Feb 14, 2022 8:12 am

columba wrote:
Germany is about to discuss a potential order for 30 F-35A fighter jets:
https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/3016 ... ted-states

The visit of the Chancellor was last week already. If any discussions happened, nothing was made public.

SeamanBeaumont · Mon Feb 14, 2022 10:04 am

tommy1808 wrote:
columba wrote:
Germany is about to discuss a potential order for 30 F-35A fighter jets:
https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/3016 ... ted-states

which begs the question where the jammers will go, onto the F-35s or the Typhoon. And which ones....

best regards
Thomas

If the intent is SEAD then F-35 doesn't need anything extra but only 30 F-35As suggests the Germans will use F-35A for nuc delivery and the rest will go Eurofighter vanilla and ECR.

tommy1808 · Mon Feb 14, 2022 12:01 pm

SeamanBeaumont wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
columba wrote:
Germany is about to discuss a potential order for 30 F-35A fighter jets:
https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/3016 ... ted-states

which begs the question where the jammers will go, onto the F-35s or the Typhoon. And which ones....

best regards
Thomas

If the intent is SEAD then F-35 doesn't need anything extra but only 30 F-35As suggests the Germans will use F-35A for nuc delivery and the rest will go Eurofighter vanilla and ECR.

Actually that pretty much means 30 F35A available for SEAD/DEAD. Germany still has to provide jamming capabilitiy to NATO.

best regards
Thomas

columba · Mon Feb 14, 2022 1:11 pm

I guess ECR will be done by the Eurofighter

SeamanBeaumont · Mon Feb 14, 2022 7:01 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
SeamanBeaumont wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

which begs the question where the jammers will go, onto the F-35s or the Typhoon. And which ones....

best regards
Thomas

If the intent is SEAD then F-35 doesn't need anything extra but only 30 F-35As suggests the Germans will use F-35A for nuc delivery and the rest will go Eurofighter vanilla and ECR.

Actually that pretty much means 30 F35A available for SEAD/DEAD. Germany still has to provide jamming capabilitiy to NATO.

best regards
Thomas

Actually... the previous plan was 30 Supers for the nuc role and 15 growler for EW and then the rest eurofighters. Now the rumour is 30 F-35, seems like the right fit for nuc delivery.

tommy1808 · Tue Feb 15, 2022 6:06 am

SeamanBeaumont wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
SeamanBeaumont wrote:
If the intent is SEAD then F-35 doesn't need anything extra but only 30 F-35As suggests the Germans will use F-35A for nuc delivery and the rest will go Eurofighter vanilla and ECR.

Actually that pretty much means 30 F35A available for SEAD/DEAD. Germany still has to provide jamming capabilitiy to NATO.

best regards
Thomas

Actually... the previous plan was 30 Supers for the nuc role and 15 growler for EW and then the rest eurofighters. Now the rumour is 30 F-35, seems like the right fit for nuc delivery.

I am more thinking along the lines of nuclear delivery not going to happen like ever.

best regards
Thomas

889091 · Tue Feb 15, 2022 7:13 am

Wonder if the current situation in Ukraine brought forward the discussion phase of the process?

Assuming they sign on the dotted line ASAP, when can they expect delivery?

30989 · Tue Feb 15, 2022 10:47 am

889091 wrote:
Wonder if the current situation in Ukraine brought forward the discussion phase of the process?

Assuming they sign on the dotted line ASAP, when can they expect delivery?

While it probably helped, the procurement itself was agreed in the coalition treaty (page 150):

Wir werden zu Beginn der 20. Legislaturperiode ein Nachfolgesystem für das Kampfflugzeug Tornado
beschaffen. Den Beschaffungs- und Zertifizierungsprozess mit Blick auf die nukleare Teilhabe
Deutschlands werden wir sachlich und gewissenhaft begleiten.

"We will procure a ("ein" means "one", but this does not necessarily mean just one for all) successor system for the Tornado at the start of the 20th legislative period. We will diligently and reasonably monitor procurement and certification with regards to the nuclear participation of Germany."

This language is clearly stating that the procurement was intended to start soon.

SQ22 · Tue Feb 15, 2022 5:33 pm

TheSonntag wrote:
889091 wrote:
Wonder if the current situation in Ukraine brought forward the discussion phase of the process?

Assuming they sign on the dotted line ASAP, when can they expect delivery?

While it probably helped, the procurement itself was agreed in the coalition treaty (page 150):

Wir werden zu Beginn der 20. Legislaturperiode ein Nachfolgesystem für das Kampfflugzeug Tornado
beschaffen. Den Beschaffungs- und Zertifizierungsprozess mit Blick auf die nukleare Teilhabe
Deutschlands werden wir sachlich und gewissenhaft begleiten.

"We will procure a ("ein" means "one", but this does not necessarily mean just one for all) successor system for the Tornado at the start of the 20th legislative period. We will diligently and reasonably monitor procurement and certification with regards to the nuclear participation of Germany."

This language is clearly stating that the procurement was intended to start soon.

Link to source: Koalitionsvertrag

zululima · Wed Feb 16, 2022 8:43 am

tommy1808 wrote:

I am more thinking along the lines of nuclear delivery not going to happen like ever.

Correct, because of M.A.D. Brought to you by... capability.

art · Wed Feb 16, 2022 12:31 pm

zululima wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

I am more thinking along the lines of nuclear delivery not going to happen like ever.

Correct, because of M.A.D. Brought to you by... capability.

Capability exists already - MAD. Do little bits of extra madness make any difference? How does an air force able to drop a few nukes on the enemy from the air change the balance when there are thousands of nukes deliverable by ICBM? I don't see the point of Germany being capable of nuclear strike using aircraft. Perhaps someone can explain to me what useful purpose such a capability serves.

bikerthai · Wed Feb 16, 2022 12:47 pm

art wrote:
Perhaps someone can explain to me what useful purpose such a capability serves.

If you are old enough, you will remember the days when there is a distinction between tactical and strategic nuclear weapons.

Germany's nuclear capability may have arise when the Warsaw Pact had numerical superiority to NATO. In case when Germany is about to be over run, there is the option to slow or stop the advance by using tactical nukes.

Since these nukes would be used on front line troops which would be on German soil, it would be natural to have German pilots do the deed.

Since these weapons would not have been used on Eastern Block soil, the thought was it would not escalate.

With the current ballance of power, I do not believe Germany would have to worry about being over run, and the thought of a German pilot dropping a nuke on foreign soil would be not conceivable.

Maybe its time to amend that obligation.

bt

ps. The only other time I can think where tactical nuke may be useful would be an Alien invasion or a zombie outbreak. But in those cases, we are screwed either way.

GDB · Wed Feb 16, 2022 1:25 pm

art wrote:
zululima wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

I am more thinking along the lines of nuclear delivery not going to happen like ever.

Correct, because of M.A.D. Brought to you by... capability.

Capability exists already - MAD. Do little bits of extra madness make any difference? How does an air force able to drop a few nukes on the enemy from the air change the balance when there are thousands of nukes deliverable by ICBM? I don't see the point of Germany being capable of nuclear strike using aircraft. Perhaps someone can explain to me what useful purpose such a capability serves.

It IS more symbolic than a military capability, if you like an extreme example of NATO Article 5.
Now, with arguably a Russian leader more erratic and dangerous one since Khrushchev and he wasn't a sociopath and crook like Putin, who years ago started re introducing tactical/sub strategic nuclear delivery systems in places like Kaliningrad, such as Iskander.
Having NATO crews like Germany with access, albeit via NATO command dual key style arrangements, is designed to create a level of strategic uncertainty in Moscow.

(The same reason after the Cuban Missile Crisis, elements of the US government and DoD set against the established UK and emerging French deterrent forces changed their views, the recklessness of the attempted Cuban operation shocked them so why not accept that these forces will create uncertainty in the Kremlin?)

744SPX · Fri Feb 18, 2022 1:37 am

The problem with tactical nukes has always been escalation, its much worse now as the biggest strategic nukes are not much bigger than current tactical nukes. (W-88 or W-87 vs B-61, for instance)

mxaxai · Sun Feb 27, 2022 11:47 am

Along with the announcement today that Germany is planning on spending an extra 100 billion € on defence projects, chancellor Scholz said that a modern Tornado replacement will be procured in a timely manner, with potential for the F-35 in the role of a nuclear strike aircraft, and that the development of an electronic warfare variant of the Eurofighter shall be expedited.

https://augengeradeaus.net/2022/02/neue ... -erreicht/ [German]

bajs11 · Sun Feb 27, 2022 12:41 pm

and his speech in English
https://youtu.be/9_DMcayCtnA
but it seems not everyone in the Bundestag agrees

30989 · Sun Feb 27, 2022 9:34 pm

bajs11 wrote:
and his speech in English
https://youtu.be/9_DMcayCtnA
but it seems not everyone in the Bundestag agrees

Actually the agreement was extremely broad. The AFD right wing Putin puppets and the Linkspartei (old kemlin puppets) are fishing for the same extreme right voters and so this was to be expected.

There is a consensus of more than 80per cent of the voters.

johns624 · Sun Feb 27, 2022 9:36 pm

That is very encouraging!

bajs11 · Mon Feb 28, 2022 7:35 am

TheSonntag wrote:
bajs11 wrote:
and his speech in English
https://youtu.be/9_DMcayCtnA
but it seems not everyone in the Bundestag agrees

Actually the agreement was extremely broad. The AFD right wing Putin puppets and the Linkspartei (old kemlin puppets) are fishing for the same extreme right voters and so this was to be expected.

There is a consensus of more than 80per cent of the voters.

Which is quite surprising because the right wing populists in some other EU countries seem to also be fans of comrade Vladimir Vladimirovich or at least don't condemn his actions as much.
Even though those countries have always considered the Russian empire, the USSR and now mr Putin's Russia as an existential threat.
It could be that they found an ally in this strong autocrat because what they have in common is that they want to destroy this liberal world order.

30989 · Mon Feb 28, 2022 10:21 am

Contrary to some popular belief on Germany, Germany has become the stability anchor in Europe with regards to peace politics. Germany learned a hard lesson in WW2, and this fundamentally changed the german behaviour. The german democracy is stable and resilient, despite some issues in eastern germany.

The idea was also to trade with russia to ensure stability there, too. This now has been revised. 10 years too late, granted, but a significant move.

I just hope this ends more or less well and russia gets rid of Putin and really shifts policy, like we were forced to from 1945 onwards. In some respects, for Putin, 1990 was what was the 1918 Versailles Treaty for Germany. A loss which German elites then, and Russian elites now, wanted to change.

Funny thing is, when Germany choose another part after WW2 including the EU, we achieved what war did not: Having influence in Europe, without dominating. The german dominance also was and is seen critical by others, that is why France and UK were rather critical to German reuinification in 1989, unlike Bush and Gorbatchew.

We have not forgotten that the russians accepted this reunification and left our soil until 1994. This was due to weekness, granted, but nevertheless in hindsigt Kohls biggest achievement. But this, and our geographic position, probably explains why we had a rather russia friendly position and maybe "did not want to see reality in the last 20 years".

Even now, we must try to get russia on a reliable path again. But this can only be achieved by strength, unfortunately.

kelval · Mon Feb 28, 2022 9:01 pm

Tornados for aerial superiority and F35 for deep strikes would actually make a lot of sense on a tactical point of view.
Much more sense than getting a full fleet of F35 for air police, that's for sure.

744SPX · Mon Feb 28, 2022 9:34 pm

kelval wrote:
Tornados for aerial superiority and F35 for deep strikes would actually make a lot of sense on a tactical point of view.
Much more sense than getting a full fleet of F35 for air police, that's for sure.

Agreed.

SeamanBeaumont · Mon Feb 28, 2022 9:34 pm

kelval wrote:
Tornados for aerial superiority and F35 for deep strikes would actually make a lot of sense on a tactical point of view.
Much more sense than getting a full fleet of F35 for air police, that's for sure.

Assume you mean Typhoons for aerial superiority (no one in their right mind would willing chose a Tornado F3 for anything air superiority today) and F-35s for deep strike but even then you're misguided. Swiss found F-35 was better than Typhoon, Typhoon didn't even make the cut in Finland and Denmark also found F-35 rated higher than Typhoon in every category...

stratable · Mon Feb 28, 2022 9:50 pm

SeamanBeaumont wrote:
kelval wrote:
Tornados for aerial superiority and F35 for deep strikes would actually make a lot of sense on a tactical point of view.
Much more sense than getting a full fleet of F35 for air police, that's for sure.

Assume you mean Typhoons for aerial superiority (no one in their right mind would willing chose a Tornado F3 for anything air superiority today) and F-35s for deep strike but even then you're misguided. Swiss found F-35 was better than Typhoon, Typhoon didn't even make the cut in Finland and Denmark also found F-35 rated higher than Typhoon in every category...

I think this rationale goes back to a quote along the lines of "any pilot who takes an F35 into a dogfight is a fool".

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/test-pilot-admits-the-f-35-can-t-dogfight-cdb9d11a875

The Typhoon may well have a defensive role much like the F15EX now has. I think there is a reason things like thrust vectoring and the aerodynamic modification kit were researched.
I hope they will apply them along with PIRATE. The Typhoon is just a cool looking beast. But I am no true expert here.

SeamanBeaumont · Mon Feb 28, 2022 10:32 pm

stratable wrote:
I think this rationale goes back to a quote along the lines of "any pilot who takes an F35 into a dogfight is a fool".

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/test-pilot-admits-the-f-35-can-t-dogfight-cdb9d11a875

Dude some common sense should apply. Testing program report taken completely out of context. That has been debunked so many times it is becoming boring, like the war.... What we knew in 2016 at the below link.
https://nettsteder.regjeringen.no/kampf ... ed-so-far/

What we know today is F-35 continues to be graded better than Typhoon in competitions for DCA and OCA.

stratable wrote:
The Typhoon may well have a defensive role much like the F15EX now has. I think there is a reason things like thrust vectoring and the aerodynamic modification kit were researched.
I hope they will apply them along with PIRATE. The Typhoon is just a cool looking beast. But I am no true expert here.

Thrust vectoring for Typhoon isn’t happening and AMK hasn’t been acquired by a single operator. Doubtful either will be on new German Typhoons just like they aren’t on Kuwaiti or Qatari new aircraft. German Typhoons are poorly quipped, T4 version may finally reflect a config closer to the RAF in capability.

stratable · Mon Feb 28, 2022 10:38 pm

SeamanBeaumont wrote:
stratable wrote:
I think this rationale goes back to a quote along the lines of "any pilot who takes an F35 into a dogfight is a fool".

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/test-pilot-admits-the-f-35-can-t-dogfight-cdb9d11a875

Dude some common sense should apply. Testing program report taken completely out of context. That has been debunked so many times it is becoming boring, like the war.... What we knew in 2016 at the below link.
https://nettsteder.regjeringen.no/kampf ... ed-so-far/

What we know today is F-35 continues to be graded better than Typhoon in competitions for DCA and OCA.
stratable wrote:
The Typhoon may well have a defensive role much like the F15EX now has. I think there is a reason things like thrust vectoring and the aerodynamic modification kit were researched.
I hope they will apply them along with PIRATE. The Typhoon is just a cool looking beast. But I am no true expert here.

Thrust vectoring for Typhoon isn’t happening and AMK hasn’t been acquired by a single operator. Doubtful either will be on new German Typhoons just like they aren’t on Kuwaiti or Qatari new aircraft. German Typhoons are poorly quipped, T4 version may finally reflect a config closer to the RAF in capability.

Hey, I am happy to be wrong here. I am not too deep into the fighter competitions in Norway, or Switzerland.
The 100 Billion Euros for German defense spending this year that were just approved contain upgrades for Typhoons, specifics to be announced later this week from what I have read.
There have been talks about upgrading the Eurojet for additional thrust and longevity, too. Germany plans to fly the Typhoon for another few decades (as per the report I linked upthread) which means those planes will need to be kept current either way.
The Tranche 4 order already includes the building of dedicated test aircraft that will be used to support the independent development of the Typhoon by Germany in the years to come.

bikerthai · Mon Feb 28, 2022 10:47 pm

Seems to me the situation with the F-35 would be like what the US faced against the Zeros during WWII.

Use your stealth strength and don't get into a turning fight.

bt

SeamanBeaumont · Tue Mar 01, 2022 1:10 am

stratable wrote:
Hey, I am happy to be wrong here. I am not too deep into the fighter competitions in Norway, or Switzerland.

Finland, not Norway, Norway decided 14 years ago.

stratable wrote:
The 100 Billion Euros for German defense spending this year that were just approved contain upgrades for Typhoons, specifics to be announced later this week from what I have read.
There have been talks about upgrading the Eurojet for additional thrust and longevity, too. Germany plans to fly the Typhoon for another few decades (as per the report I linked upthread) which means those planes will need to be kept current either way.
The Tranche 4 order already includes the building of dedicated test aircraft that will be used to support the independent development of the Typhoon by Germany in the years to come.

I will believe it when I see it. Germany always planned to fly the Eurofighter that long and plan was to use it as a test bed for FCAS systems, again will wait to see if the rhetoric translates to actual spend.

bikerthai wrote:
Seems to me the situation with the F-35 would be like what the US faced against the Zeros during WWII.

Seems like it is nothing like that situation... Every fighter pilot wants to fight where they can win. Typhoon would be better high and fast while F-35 will be better in the slow regime while being competitive fast. Feedback is F-35 is better than F-16 in a turning fight, can fight fast like the 16 or slow like the 18, and that means it is no slouch. Billie Flynn who has flown both says the F-35 is the better aircraft even now when he doesn't work for LM.

bikerthai wrote:
Use your stealth strength and don't get into a turning fight.

No one wants a fair fight, stealth means F-35 makes it unfair every single time.

stratable · Tue Mar 01, 2022 2:08 am

SeamanBeaumont wrote:
kelval wrote:
Tornados for aerial superiority and F35 for deep strikes would actually make a lot of sense on a tactical point of view.
Much more sense than getting a full fleet of F35 for air police, that's for sure.

Assume you mean Typhoons for aerial superiority (no one in their right mind would willing chose a Tornado F3 for anything air superiority today) and F-35s for deep strike but even then you're misguided. Swiss found F-35 was better than Typhoon, Typhoon didn't even make the cut in Finland and Denmark also found F-35 rated higher than Typhoon in every category...

SeamanBeaumont wrote:
stratable wrote:
The 100 Billion Euros for German defense spending this year that were just approved contain upgrades for Typhoons, specifics to be announced later this week from what I have read.
There have been talks about upgrading the Eurojet for additional thrust and longevity, too. Germany plans to fly the Typhoon for another few decades (as per the report I linked upthread) which means those planes will need to be kept current either way.
The Tranche 4 order already includes the building of dedicated test aircraft that will be used to support the independent development of the Typhoon by Germany in the years to come.

I will believe it when I see it. Germany always planned to fly the Eurofighter that long and plan was to use it as a test bed for FCAS systems, again will wait to see if the rhetoric translates to actual spend.

My whole point here is that I'd assume the Luftwaffe knows what they're doing. They will know their mission profiles, the types of aircraft they need, and how to use each aircraft.
The Tornado has been updated throughout its life, too.
The Luftwaffe has been asking for F-35 in the past, seems like they're getting some in the future, even if it has taken a while to get there.

SeamanBeaumont · Tue Mar 01, 2022 3:05 am

stratable wrote:
My whole point here is that I'd assume the Luftwaffe knows what they're doing. They will know their mission profiles, the types of aircraft they need, and how to use each aircraft.

No doubt. They are already heavily invested in Eurofighter so more makes sense for them. There has always been lots of talk of Eurofighter improvements like CFTs (not happening https://twitter.com/garethjennings3/sta ... 56?lang=en ), TVC, EJ200 etc but have never gone anywhere. With ECR they may open up the additional suggested pylons for wet carriage and increase electrical generation on the EJ200 but that is about it.

Problem with things like AMK is unless you upgrade the whole fleet you end up with a sub fleet of aircraft with different flight behaviour. You also have to clear the flight envelope again not just for clean aircraft but for using weapons in that expanded envelope. Maybe the 100 bills will buy that work but I doubt it. Easier to just keep the aircraft as it is and focus money on upgrades like ECR.

stratable wrote:
The Tornado has been updated throughout its life, too.

Slowly for the GAF… and far behind the RAF models until recently. Even then Germany never operated the ADV, the vanilla Tornados don’t have BVR A2A capability nor long range radar for air tracks, just AIM-9 or ASRAAM.

stratable wrote:
The Luftwaffe has been asking for F-35 in the past, seems like they're getting some in the future, even if it has taken a while to get there.

Better chance now than ever before. Reckon Muellner should sue for compensation.

stratable · Tue Mar 01, 2022 3:51 am

SeamanBeaumont wrote:
stratable wrote:
My whole point here is that I'd assume the Luftwaffe knows what they're doing. They will know their mission profiles, the types of aircraft they need, and how to use each aircraft.

No doubt. They are already heavily invested in Eurofighter so more makes sense for them. There has always been lots of talk of Eurofighter improvements like CFTs (not happening https://twitter.com/garethjennings3/sta ... 56?lang=en ), TVC, EJ200 etc but have never gone anywhere. With ECR they may open up the additional suggested pylons for wet carriage and increase electrical generation on the EJ200 but that is about it.

Problem with things like AMK is unless you upgrade the whole fleet you end up with a sub fleet of aircraft with different flight behaviour. You also have to clear the flight envelope again not just for clean aircraft but for using weapons in that expanded envelope. Maybe the 100 bills will buy that work but I doubt it. Easier to just keep the aircraft as it is and focus money on upgrades like ECR.
stratable wrote:
The Tornado has been updated throughout its life, too.

Slowly for the GAF… and far behind the RAF models until recently. Even then Germany never operated the ADV, the vanilla Tornados don’t have BVR A2A capability nor long range radar for air tracks, just AIM-9 or ASRAAM.
stratable wrote:
The Luftwaffe has been asking for F-35 in the past, seems like they're getting some in the future, even if it has taken a while to get there.

Better chance now than ever before. Reckon Muellner should sue for compensation.

Thanks for the insights.

According to German news reports, Luftwaffe is getting 15 billion Euros for a Tornado successor and 2.5 billion Euros for the Typhoon platform.
Typhoon will be further developed into the electronic warfare version.
From these sources it is not clear what the actual distribution for new aircraft, and development spending will be, i.e. if the 2.5 billion for Typhoon is for
the ECR version, or if those 2.5 billion are for additional upgrades and the 15 billion includes a potential F-35 purchase and ECR.

Federal budget will be announced next week and could provide more detail.

Sources [in German]:
https://www.n-tv.de/politik/Wofuer-werden-die-100-Milliarden-Euro-ausgegeben-article23161637.html
https://www.waz.de/politik/100-milliarden-fuer-bundeswehr-scholz-reaktion-putin-id234682661.html

kelval · Tue Mar 01, 2022 5:05 am

SeamanBeaumont wrote:
kelval wrote:
Tornados for aerial superiority and F35 for deep strikes would actually make a lot of sense on a tactical point of view.
Much more sense than getting a full fleet of F35 for air police, that's for sure.

Assume you mean Typhoons for aerial superiority (no one in their right mind would willing chose a Tornado F3 for anything air superiority today) and F-35s for deep strike but even then you're misguided. Swiss found F-35 was better than Typhoon, Typhoon didn't even make the cut in Finland and Denmark also found F-35 rated higher than Typhoon in every category...

Yes sorry Typhoon. I was about to head to bed an got a "slip of the tongue". Going to modify the initial post.
Edit : seems I can't modify the initial post anymore. Will have to live with it.

744SPX · Tue Mar 01, 2022 6:09 am

The F-35 fanboyism on here is pretty amazing, especially when it comes to its air to air performance. For every debunking there is another debunking, and for every pilot or general who says how great it is there is another who rips it to shreds. This has been going on for the last 12+ years. People used to say "well, the F-35 was never designed to be an air superiority fighter, its an attack aircraft". Now they say its the best air to air fighter there is. I've talked to a Navy F-18E pilot who worked on the F-35 program for a number of years but quit because of the aircraft's inherent deficiencies.

Funny how once people accepted that the F-35 program was too big to fail everyone started screaming how its the most amazing, perfect fighter ever built, and how dare you say anything against it.

Even when Lockheed decided they wouldn't fix the B and C speed deficiency/limitations people just said "oh, top speed doesn't really matter anyway". And that's only one of the contractual failure's they have failed to meet.

Sure the Typhoon isn't a great air to ground aircraft, but I'll take it any day over the F-35 for the interceptor/air to air mission.

30989 · Tue Mar 01, 2022 8:41 am

Well, probably the F35 is a bad fighter, but we want to replace Tornado with it, which is a very bad fighter... But an excellent low level striker.

GDB · Tue Mar 01, 2022 8:52 am

744SPX wrote:
The F-35 fanboyism on here is pretty amazing, especially when it comes to its air to air performance. For every debunking there is another debunking, and for every pilot or general who says how great it is there is another who rips it to shreds. This has been going on for the last 12+ years. People used to say "well, the F-35 was never designed to be an air superiority fighter, its an attack aircraft". Now they say its the best air to air fighter there is. I've talked to a Navy F-18E pilot who worked on the F-35 program for a number of years but quit because of the aircraft's inherent deficiencies.

Funny how once people accepted that the F-35 program was too big to fail everyone started screaming how its the most amazing, perfect fighter ever built, and how dare you say anything against it.

Even when Lockheed decided they wouldn't fix the B and C speed deficiency/limitations people just said "oh, top speed doesn't really matter anyway". And that's only one of the contractual failure's they have failed to meet.

Sure the Typhoon isn't a great air to ground aircraft, but I'll take it any day over the F-35 for the interceptor/air to air mission.

Reminds me of constant articles in the press in the 2000’s by one Max Hastings, a well known military historian. Always castigating the Eurofighter, it was useless, a Cold War pure fighter, so clearly not needed now, mostly because it could not do air to ground, the F-35 could do it now even if at the time it was years away from entering service.
He should stick to history as for some years now RAF has been using Typhoons operationally against largely Islamic State, using Paveway IV, Brimstone missile, Storm Shadow, recce pods and on occasion, the 27mm cannon. And a drone with an ASRAAM.
As for air to air, the increasing number of Russian aircraft probing NATO airspace keep the force busy and if things get very bad with the Ukraine situation possibly against fighters that go too far with probing NATO or worse.

What’s important here? Can Typhoon go up against anything likely opponents have? Yes and it will outmatch them, Russian types that are supposed to be the counterparts of F-22 are tiny in number and not really a match for the US type.

40 years ago an aircraft much sneered at especially from across the pond, (despite one arm of their services operating it and developing a second generation), had to go into unexpected combat in a most unexpected part of the world, without the luxury of being a superpower with all that brings, against an enemy that outnumbered them 10 to 1, 8000 miles from home.
Despite being crammed like sardines in two light carriers, one of which was not even initially designed for fixed wing, it achieved over 20 air to air kills, lost none to enemy aircraft with a 99% availability.
Most importantly, who won? The only metric that counts.

More recently Hastings attacked the new RN carriers, out of date, as of course are all carriers, in particular anything approved, developed, ordered and the building started under a British government that wasn’t a Tory one.

stratable · Tue Mar 01, 2022 4:41 pm

It will be interesting to see how well the F-35's stealth advantage holds up over time as new radars, better FLIR, and such are developed.
The US Air Force and Navy have also been working on bigger two-engine jets to replace the F22 and Super Hornets for some time now, seems like the F35 certainly can't do it all,
and that there is a role to play for other aircraft.

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