texl1649 wrote:

Interesting there’s relatively little/no criticism of the Luftwaffe grabbing more non-stealth platform fighters vs. the USAF re: F-15EX.

I think a couple of things play into that. Germany was still taking new production Eurofighters, the last of the ~143 initially ordered was delivered in December last year, while the USAF hasn't taken a new F-15 of any variant since 2004. Germany ios also partnered on FCAS and we know the very strong pressure that has been applied by Airbus and Dassault/France to keep Germnay from acquiring the F-35, really the only viable stealth option available to them.

spudh wrote:

If they had any sense the Indian Air force should be all over these. Buy the airframes and then tender an avionics upgrade which might have some hope of coming to fruition in the coming decades

Good in theory but probably a bad decision in practise. They would get better servicability and operational capability from buying new build aircraft that have AESA,, conformals etc. The T1s are not AESA capable, at least a full up properly integrated AESA, without a significant structural change that is almost certainly cost prohibitive. They are also not great multi-role aircraft, all the partner nations operate them in essentially an A2A or limited A2G and I don't believe any T1s have a TGT pod integrated. In the case of German T1s these are the worst equipped of the respective operators, having chosen to not acquire some of the systems that other operates did, such as PIRATE.

How large a capability difference is there between T2 and T3 aircraft? What fascilitates the differentiation other than build date?

mxaxai wrote:

Noray wrote:

mxaxai wrote:

The 38 aircraft will cost EUR 5.5 billion (USD 6.54 billion), or USD 172 million each.

The price includes an unspecified range of ground equipment and spare parts to increase combat readiness, so you can't really deduce a price per unit.

Correct, this is not the fly-away-cost, this is the full systems, weapons, integration and support package. Perhaps I should've clarified that in my original post.

TheSonntag wrote:

What is the big deal with the T1 Eurofighters, btw? Why cannot you just buy some avionic, throw the old one out and you have a decent new EF? Compared to how long the Phantom or even the Tornado was used, I wonder, why do they want to get rid of the T1?

Part of this order is politically motivated to keep the FAL running.

However, retrofitting new avionics to the T1 jets is quite a bit of work. They can be improved, for example Spain started work on theirs last year https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... force.html . But the amount of low-hanging fruit is limited, the Airbus PR makes it seem like a lot more than it actually is. Going from T1 to T3 would require a complete overhaul of the avionics suite. The UK has decided to keep the T1 for QRA duties only https://sofrep.com/fightersweep/tranche ... ert-force/ . The lack of T1 capabilities was always known, and a potential upgrade of T1 aircraft to T2/T3 standard was first considered (and dismissed) more than 10 years ago already. It's just that - at least in Germany - support for several components was discontinued last year, with a corresponding hit to operating costs and mission readiness. I assume some of those parts are being addressed by Spain's upgrade program.

FWIW, the UK did do some extensive upgrade work on some T1 aircraft. Internally they're referred to T1.5 as much of their hardware has been swapped out.

However there is a limit due to design changes from T1 to T2 and beyond. Many aspects internally were changed for T2 and many systems were reworked. Such work would be prohibitively expensive to fully realise.

CRJockey wrote:

How large a capability difference is there between T2 and T3 aircraft? What fascilitates the differentiation other than build date?

T1 to T2:
- completely overhauled avionics, much more processing power and memory
- significantly improved software incl. fundamental layout
- enhanced ground attack, navigation capability (through software)
- improved HMI (better voice commands, helmet mounted sight)
- improved ECM
T2 to T3:
- structural reinforcements for conformal fuel tanks and mounting points for the AESA radar.
- minor structural and electrical improvements for avionics (can be retrofitted)
- improved software to integrate various new weapons (can be retrofitted)
- AESA radar incl. software (upon customer request, can be retrofitted)

mxaxai wrote:

CRJockey wrote:

How large a capability difference is there between T2 and T3 aircraft? What fascilitates the differentiation other than build date?

T1 to T2:
- completely overhauled avionics, much more processing power and memory
- significantly improved software incl. fundamental layout
- enhanced ground attack, navigation capability (through software)
- improved HMI (better voice commands, helmet mounted sight)
- improved ECM
T2 to T3:
- structural reinforcements for conformal fuel tanks and mounting points for the AESA radar.
- minor structural and electrical improvements for avionics (can be retrofitted)
- improved software to integrate various new weapons (can be retrofitted)
- AESA radar incl. software (upon customer request, can be retrofitted)

Many thanks mxaxai, very interesting.

What air force has ever used a Eurofighter on a A2G mission? Just curious.

texl1649 wrote:

What air force has ever used a Eurofighter on a A2G mission? Just curious.

Saudia Arabia over Yemen?

Ozair wrote:

texl1649 wrote:

What air force has ever used a Eurofighter on a A2G mission? Just curious.

Saudia Arabia over Yemen?

UK in Libya, Syria and Iraq

RAF in Iraq and Syria

https://www.raf.mod.uk/news/articles/ra ... e-hideout/

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... ember-2017

Airbus is offering a Tranche 5 Eurofighter for the Tornado replacement. From the look of the offer they are seeking the full 85 jet replacement and want to include the LTE study work being undertaken. That LTE work, approx. US$71 million, will require significant development money after that study to make that work production ready.

Airbus to offer Tranche 5 Eurofighters to replace German Tornados

Airbus is to offer a Tranche 5 standard of the Eurofighter combat aircraft to replace Germany’s fleet of Panavia Tornados, a company official said on 9 December.

Speaking at a virtual running of the company’s annual Trade Media Briefing (TMB), the head of combat aircraft business development, Wolfgang Gammel, said that this future standard will be offered to the Luftwaffe as the service looks to replace 90 Tornado Interdiction and Strike (IDS) and Electronic Combat Reconnaissance (ECR) aircraft with 85 new aircraft from 2030.

As noted by Gammel, this Tranche 5 standard will take the E-Scan active electronically scanned-array (AESA) radar, as well as defensive aids and human-machine interface (HMI) enhancements included in the latest Tranche 4 under contract for Germany (Project Quadriga) and Spain (Project Halcon), and add some or all of the upgrades being developed for the Long Term Evolution (LTE) package.

...

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... n-tornados

Info on the LTE package is available here, https://www.baesystems.com/en-uk/articl ... -potential

The LTE enhancements as detailed don’t address the SEAD requirement though so if Airbus wants to win the whole replacement they will have to keep pushing the ECR Typhoon proposal likely as a separate development.

Have they made a decision as to whom they will be offering their T1 Eurofighters (for sale)? Or will they keep them to fulfill the trainer role?

889091 wrote:

Have they made a decision as to whom they will be offering their T1 Eurofighters (for sale)? Or will they keep them to fulfill the trainer role?

The most likely outcome right now is their retirement and eventual parting out / scrapping. I have not seen any interest in used T1 aircraft (... except the Indonesian request to Austria ...), nor has Germany made any formal or informal offers to potential customers yet. I'm sure they're considering a sale but it's not a high priority.

The EF tranche 5 is somewhat analogous to the F-15EX now across the pond. It is being produced/procured essentially as a stopgap/filler because training/access to the G5+ design(s) can't be done quickly enough. At least the EX though is primarily an A2A platform (basically used for CONUS intercepts of Bears); there's very little long term prospect of a manned fighter-bomber in a contested environment without stealth, imho.

This article says that Indonesia has been approved to buy F-15 and F-18 but...

As the deal for the new fighter jets could take years to come to fruition, Indonesia is planning to buy used aircraft such as the Eurofighter Typhoon, which can be delivered much sooner. Previous reports said Subianto was interested in purchasing 15 such aircraft from Austria.

But Pedrason said the plan was only a stopgap. "It is most urgent for us now to have weaponry that can balance [the power] against red dot countries near us," he added,

https://www.defense-aerospace.com/artic ... hters.html

So, current thinking is...

- buy US fighters for the long term
- buy stopgap fighters for induction ASAP

Along these lines, how soon could Germany supply T1 Typhoons?

By the way, I take Indonesia's plam with a pinch of salt.

Some commentary from the German Air Force Chief on the Tornado replacement. Seems like the GAF is pretty keen on going for the SH/Growler combo although that will have to survive some strong Airbus lobbying at the political level.

German Air Force chief: The service is undergoing upgrades to meet future challenges

...

The future of the Luftwaffe’s fighter aircraft will be seen through the lens of the Defence Ministry’s proposed replacement of the aging Tornado fighter-bombers with the U.S. F/A-18F Super Hornet for air-to-ground missions, and the EA-18G Growler for jamming purposes. This electronic warfare aircraft will bring a unique capability to NATO in Europe and would become a key element in the Luftwaffe’s approach in addressing current and future challenges in the electromagnetic spectrum. The multi-role Eurofighter will be upgraded to the new Tranche 4 level, and in conjunction with the F/A-18F and EA-18G, it would strengthen and carry the German fighter wings into the future operating environment.

...

https://www.defensenews.com/outlook/202 ... hallenges/

Interestingly he also talks about the need for projecting power long distances, which is contrary to what some here have suggested is the focus of the German Military. Perhaps they view their role as wider and more involved than most expect.

In line with the German Federal Republic’s security assessment, the Luftwaffe has also been assigned to demonstrate deterrence capability by projecting presence over great distances. The initial deployment of fighter and tanker aircraft to Australia will begin in 2022. This significant deployment cannot be underestimated: It is not just about the Luftwaffe deploying aircraft. It is about deploying and projecting air power over thousands of miles away from home.

A combination Germany and India buy would be enough for Boeing to invest in the digital manufacturing process for the F-18 air frame and lower the price for noth campaign.

bt

Ozair wrote:

Some commentary from the German Air Force Chief on the Tornado replacement. Seems like the GAF is pretty keen on going for the SH/Growler combo although that will have to survive some strong Airbus lobbying at the political level.

He simply echoes the selection decision that Germany’s defence minister AKK had announced in April 2020, and adds a few nice words. He doesn't actually have a choice.

Ozair wrote:

Interestingly he also talks about the need for projecting power long distances, which is contrary to what some here have suggested is the focus of the German Military. Perhaps they view their role as wider and more involved than most expect.

In line with the German Federal Republic’s security assessment, the Luftwaffe has also been assigned to demonstrate deterrence capability by projecting presence over great distances. The initial deployment of fighter and tanker aircraft to Australia will begin in 2022. This significant deployment cannot be underestimated: It is not just about the Luftwaffe deploying aircraft. It is about deploying and projecting air power over thousands of miles away from home.

"Germany plans a greater peace and security role in the Indo-Pacific" is a recent headline from November 2020 about the new policy envisaged by AKK.

Noray wrote:

Ozair wrote:

Some commentary from the German Air Force Chief on the Tornado replacement. Seems like the GAF is pretty keen on going for the SH/Growler combo although that will have to survive some strong Airbus lobbying at the political level.

He simply echoes the selection decision that Germany’s defence minister AKK had announced in April 2020, and adds a few nice words. He doesn't actually have a choice.

LOL, yes well the fate of Mullner makes that clear.

Noray wrote:

Ozair wrote:

Interestingly he also talks about the need for projecting power long distances, which is contrary to what some here have suggested is the focus of the German Military. Perhaps they view their role as wider and more involved than most expect.

In line with the German Federal Republic’s security assessment, the Luftwaffe has also been assigned to demonstrate deterrence capability by projecting presence over great distances. The initial deployment of fighter and tanker aircraft to Australia will begin in 2022. This significant deployment cannot be underestimated: It is not just about the Luftwaffe deploying aircraft. It is about deploying and projecting air power over thousands of miles away from home.

"Germany plans a greater peace and security role in the Indo-Pacific" is a recent headline from November 2020 about the new policy envisaged by AKK.

Interesting and thanks for linking, I hadn’t seen that. German participation in Pitch Black is also very interesting, I think this might be their first attendance with aircraft? When the French last came they stopped at a host of places along the way and back and I expect the Germans will be the same. Should make for some good photo opportunities.

Noray wrote:

"Germany plans a greater peace and security role in the Indo-Pacific" is a recent headline from November 2020 about the new policy envisaged by AKK.

The fundamental goal to "take on more responsibility" in international conflicts, deploying forces abroad and supporting local partners, has been part of the German defence policy since - at least - 2016. The so-called "White Book 2016" recognizes, among many other points, that

• ... German territory no longer has hostile borders
• ... the German (and European) prosperity depends on free trade, mobility and access to resources
• ... German forces have to provide certain unique abilities that allow other, smaller states to participate in joint operations
• ... the labile post-cold-war order requires the ability to rapidly deploy forces internationally
• ... east and south-east Asia especially are an area of concern regarding escalating international conflicts

However, the key element so far has been further integration of EU and NATO forces. In terms of capabilities, focus was put on hybrid warfare, counter-terrorism, cyber warfare and pandemics. The primary territorial focus at the time were fragile states around Europe and Russian threats to EU/NATO member states.

Angela Merkel, 2016, wrote:

The past few years have shown that we must not take the achievements of the post-war European order for granted. The fact that borders are being moved by military force in violation of international law was considered no longer possible in the Europe of the 21st century. Wars and conflicts rage on our European doorstep, which have already cost the lives of hundreds of thousands of people and uprooted millions. At the same time, weak and failing states are becoming breeding grounds for Islamic terrorism, which also directly threatens us in Germany and Europe. More and more, conflicts are also being fought out in cyberspace; the Internet is not only a force for good but hate and violent ideologies are also spreading there.
Germany's economic and political clout obligates us, together with our European and transatlantic partners, to assume responsibility for Europe's security in order to defend human rights, freedom, democracy, the rule of law and international law.

That said, politicians have repeatedly fought against funding increases and deployments abroad. Just recently, Germany effectively withdrew [German] from Operation Atalanta, as the expanded scope with anti-trafficking roles goes beyond the anti-piracy permission granted by the German parliament. The new SAM system, which is also mentioned in the "White Book", has been continuously underfunded to the point that the manufacturer MBDA threatened [German] to fire the staff working on it. And while reconnaisance has been a constant focus of German forces, including UAVs, the debate whether to arm said UAVs is still unresolved after many years.

Regardless, participating in the exercise will give the Luftwaffe staff some much needed experience, especially when it comes to cooperation with non-EU/NATO states.

The Bundeswehr says that Tornados can fly through the end of 2030 after refurbishment. First aircraft refurbishment completed recently.

https://www.bundeswehr.de/de/organisation/luftwaffe/aktuelles/verlaengerte-lebenszeit-tornado-hebt-wieder-ab-5029012

This makes the purchase of the F-18 less urgent.

Some analysts (e.g. Christian Mölling) repeatedly used the talking point that the Tornado needs to be phased out by 2025. It looks like this date was never backed by technical analyses.

tommy1808 wrote:

I am still glad you finally accept that the US has signed and ratified that all sovereign nations have a right to get themselves some nukes.

Best regards
Thomas

That's a fascinatingly ahistorical view of the position of the US Government on the Non-Proliferation Treaty, and of the common position of entire UNSC PMs.

Small hijack: who else than Germany still flies tornadoes regularly?
I'm certain I saw one at decently low altitude where I live (South of France, near Canjuers) between fall and the start of winter. It was too fast and a bit too far away to see the emblems though.

kelval wrote:

Small hijack: who else than Germany still flies tornadoes regularly?
I'm certain I saw one at decently low altitude where I live (South of France, near Canjuers) between fall and the start of winter. It was too fast and a bit too far away to see the emblems though.

The Italian Air Force still has several Tornado IDS and ECR in service, though they are being slowly replaced by F-35s

steman wrote:

kelval wrote:

Small hijack: who else than Germany still flies tornadoes regularly?
I'm certain I saw one at decently low altitude where I live (South of France, near Canjuers) between fall and the start of winter. It was too fast and a bit too far away to see the emblems though.

The Italian Air Force still has several Tornado IDS and ECR in service, though they are being slowly replaced by F-35s

The Saudi's also operate the Tornado's as well.

It might have been this. I know the Saudi often train in Canjuers since they bought french artillery.

vr773 wrote:

The Bundeswehr says that Tornados can fly through the end of 2030 after refurbishment. First aircraft refurbishment completed recently.

https://www.bundeswehr.de/de/organisation/luftwaffe/aktuelles/verlaengerte-lebenszeit-tornado-hebt-wieder-ab-5029012

This makes the purchase of the F-18 less urgent.

Some analysts (e.g. Christian Mölling) repeatedly used the talking point that the Tornado needs to be phased out by 2025. It looks like this date was never backed by technical analyses.

So they basically performed a SLEP on a 40 year old frame. And this is less costly than to upgrade a T1 Eurofighter, which is a more modern design?

It only took them 4 years. But the good news is, the next airframes require 6 months less to be overhauled thanks to the experience gained.

vr773 wrote:

Some analysts (e.g. Christian Mölling) repeatedly used the talking point that the Tornado needs to be phased out by 2025. It looks like this date was never backed by technical analyses.

The option of a lifetime extension has always been on the table. It was just determined that the work needed to keep the Tornado fleet in service until 2030 would be more expensive than simply replacing them with new aircraft.

889091 wrote:

vr773 wrote:

The Bundeswehr says that Tornados can fly through the end of 2030 after refurbishment. First aircraft refurbishment completed recently.

https://www.bundeswehr.de/de/organisation/luftwaffe/aktuelles/verlaengerte-lebenszeit-tornado-hebt-wieder-ab-5029012

This makes the purchase of the F-18 less urgent.

Some analysts (e.g. Christian Mölling) repeatedly used the talking point that the Tornado needs to be phased out by 2025. It looks like this date was never backed by technical analyses.

So they basically performed a SLEP on a 40 year old frame. And this is less costly than to upgrade a T1 Eurofighter, which is a more modern design?

Maybe, if you include the cost for certification to carry nukes.
More broadly, in light of vaccine nationalism, JCPOA, and the Nordstream2 dispute, I think the German government is trying to limit the number of issues that require them to deal with the US government.

vr773 wrote:

More broadly, in light of vaccine nationalism, JCPOA, and the Nordstream2 dispute, I think the German government is trying to limit the number of issues that require them to deal with the US government.

You would think all these issues stem from the policies if the last administration. With a president more friendly to Europe, these issues should be worked out with standard diplomatic humdrum.

I mean if Boeing an Airbus are talking about ending the subsidy dispute, thing gotta look brighter, right?

bt

bikerthai wrote:

vr773 wrote:

More broadly, in light of vaccine nationalism, JCPOA, and the Nordstream2 dispute, I think the German government is trying to limit the number of issues that require them to deal with the US government.

You would think all these issues stem from the policies if the last administration. With a president more friendly to Europe, these issues should be worked out with standard diplomatic humdrum.

This is going wildly off topic, but the Biden administration hasn't really changed anything regarding the topics listed by vr773. He might be more open to traditional diplomacy, though, and buying jets could be a way to appease the US.

mxaxai wrote:

He might be more open to traditional diplomacy, though

That was my whole point. The issues brought up are difficult with the exception of the vaccine which I think is a short term item and will be resolved with more production ramp up.

The other two issues are thorny, but you have a better chance of compromise when head of states talk instead of hurling insults via Twitter.

I see the potential P-8A purchase is the start of this reconciliation, although it may come at the cost of the F-18 sale.

bt

Ozair wrote:

mxaxai wrote:

And the other, "Sword of Boelcke", highlights the new Recce capability of the Eurofighter due to the integration of the LITENING III targeting pod in 2019 (as described in their promotional video https://youtu.be/6fsvxRyqAJY?t=64: "The lightning stands for the new ability to bring light into darkness").
https://www.bundeswehr.de/de/organisati ... ila-256520

Nice to see the decals and appreciate the Germans haven’t been operating Litening on Eurofigher previously but this just brings them into line with other Eurofighter operators. Can we expect that this will replace the Tornado Recce fleet as that draws down or is this simply an extension of German Eurofighter capabilities and needed to support A2G enhancement anyway?

Update on this:
Some German Eurofighters are now carrying the RecceLite reconnaissance pod, which is used on the Recce Tornados nowadays. This should make them equal in capability. EF pilots from several squadrons are currently undergoing training. https://www.flugrevue.de/militaer/ausbi ... fklaerung/ [German]
Italy has also been using it in a similar role on the Tornado and, since 2019, on the Eurofighter. https://theaviationist.com/2021/03/20/i ... -48-bombs/

Hensoldt has been awarded a contract to deliver an improved derivative of the CAPTOR-E AESA radar for the 38 tranche 4 jets on order, called 'ECRS Mk 1'.

Hensoldt awarded ‘Quadriga' radar contract for Luftwaffe Eurofighters

Hensoldt has been awarded approximately EUR200 million (USD241 million) to build and deliver radar sets for the Luftwaffe’s fleet of Project Quadriga Eurofighter combat aircraft.

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... rofighters

An order for retrofit kits for Germany's T2 and T3 Eurofighters had already been placed earlier (but for ECRS Mk 0, a minor modification of CAPTOR-E). As ECRS Mk 1 is developed in cooperation with INDRA, Spain has also commited to take delivery of some radars. https://www.hensoldt.net/stories/eurofighter-radar-mk1/

In unrelated news, Leonardo has bought a 25.1% stake in Hensoldt last week...
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/i ... -hensoldt/
... while working on another new AESA radar for the British and Italian Eurofighters called 'ECRS Mk 2'.
https://www.baesystems.com/en/article/3 ... ce-typhoon

mxaxai wrote:

Hensoldt has been awarded a contract to deliver an improved derivative of the CAPTOR-E AESA radar for the 38 tranche 4 jets on order, called 'ECRS Mk 1'.

Hensoldt awarded ‘Quadriga' radar contract for Luftwaffe Eurofighters

Hensoldt has been awarded approximately EUR200 million (USD241 million) to build and deliver radar sets for the Luftwaffe’s fleet of Project Quadriga Eurofighter combat aircraft.

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... rofighters

An order for retrofit kits for Germany's T2 and T3 Eurofighters had already been placed earlier (but for ECRS Mk 0, a minor modification of CAPTOR-E). As ECRS Mk 1 is developed in cooperation with INDRA, Spain has also commited to take delivery of some radars. https://www.hensoldt.net/stories/eurofighter-radar-mk1/

In unrelated news, Leonardo has bought a 25.1% stake in Hensoldt last week...
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/i ... -hensoldt/
... while working on another new AESA radar for the British and Italian Eurofighters called 'ECRS Mk 2'.
https://www.baesystems.com/en/article/3 ... ce-typhoon

Do we have any more info on the current status of the updates to Tranche 2&3 aircraft, as well as the capabilities of Tranche 4?

This was the initial Airbus press release: https://www.airbus.com/en/newsroom/news ... technology

Does anyone know how much of the Long Term Evolution developments will be in Tranche 4 aircraft? Thrust vectoring would be cool..

I came across this articel in German, the new government is continuing moving forward with the Tornado replacement as initiated by the previous government. The article is reporting about a meeting between te secretary of defence and the chancellor. I just found this part interesting:

Nach der Unterredung von Scholz mit Lambrecht wurden mehrere Prüfaufträge erteilt. So soll nochmals geklärt werden, ob ein Kauf des moderneren Flugzeugs F-35 eine Alternative sein könnte und ob der Eurofighter für eine zweite Aufgabe der Tornado-Flotte infrage kommt: den elektronischen Kampf.

Which translates into:

After Scholz's meeting with Lambrecht, several requests were placed. The aim is to clarify once again whether buying the more modern F-35 aircraft could be an alternative and whether the Eurofighter could be considered for a second task of the Tornado fleet: electronic combat.

Article in German: Tornado-Nachfolge geht voran: Lambrecht sprach mit Scholz

SQ22 wrote:

I came across this articel in German, the new government is continuing moving forward with the Tornado replacement as initiated by the previous government. The article is reporting about a meeting between te secretary of defence and the chancellor. I just found this part interesting:

Nach der Unterredung von Scholz mit Lambrecht wurden mehrere Prüfaufträge erteilt. So soll nochmals geklärt werden, ob ein Kauf des moderneren Flugzeugs F-35 eine Alternative sein könnte und ob der Eurofighter für eine zweite Aufgabe der Tornado-Flotte infrage kommt: den elektronischen Kampf.

Which translates into:

After Scholz's meeting with Lambrecht, several requests were placed. The aim is to clarify once again whether buying the more modern F-35 aircraft could be an alternative and whether the Eurofighter could be considered for a second task of the Tornado fleet: electronic combat.

Article in German: Tornado-Nachfolge geht voran: Lambrecht sprach mit Scholz

Ha, that would be quite the turn of events... Perhaps the German Air Force has been having words behind closed doors. Would be a nail in the head for Boeing and I expect the French wouldn't be too happy either.

stratable wrote:

Do we have any more info on the current status of the updates to Tranche 2&3 aircraft, as well as the capabilities of Tranche 4?

This was the initial Airbus press release: https://www.airbus.com/en/newsroom/news ... technology

Does anyone know how much of the Long Term Evolution developments will be in Tranche 4 aircraft? Thrust vectoring would be cool..

No news regarding the progress of the upgrade (retrofit) program. T4 will be centered around the new radar and other smaller electronics/software improvements, although that initial order is only for the T1 replacement. The capabilities of the Tornado replacement aircraft are yet to be fully defined.

The new German minister of defense on 16.12.2021:

We need a decision on the successor as soon as possible. I am planning to obtain comprehensive information on this, because it is not a decision that can be made on the spur of the moment in the first week of the job. But I can tell you that I have a particular preference as to whether we can strive for a European solution, whether that is feasible. That also plays a role for me. But I will have all options presented to me.

Wir brauchen jetzt zügig auch eine Entscheidung über die Nachfolge. Ich habe mir vorgenommen, da mich umfassend informieren zu lassen, denn es ist keine Entscheidung, die man mal übers Knie bricht und in der ersten Woche seiner Aufgabe trifft. Ich kann Ihnen aber sagen, dass ich natürliche auch insbesondere eine Präferenz habe, ob wir eine europäische Lösung anstreben können, ob das umsetzbar ist. Das spielt für mich auch eine Rolle. Aber ich lasse mir alle Optionen vorlegen.

https://augengeradeaus.net/2021/12/fuer ... nachfolge/

SQ22's article appears to be part of that "having all options presented to her" process.

SeamanBeaumont wrote:

Would be a nail in the head for Boeing

More like office staples. Follow-on P-8A buy will salve the disappointment and.

bt

Thanks for the info mxaxai.

The F35 would be capable of dropping the B61 like and is more advanced than the F18.
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/3 ... fied-video

So maybe more Eurofighters for the electronic warfare tasks (to preserve European capabilities) and a squadron of F35s for nuclear tasks?
I wonder if there is a way for Germany to integrate themselves into a partner's maintenance deal for the F35 (Italy for example) if they don't end up getting a lot of aircraft.

stratable wrote:

Thanks for the info mxaxai.

The F35 would be capable of dropping the B61 like and is more advanced than the F18.
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/3 ... fied-video

So maybe more Eurofighters for the electronic warfare tasks (to preserve European capabilities) and a squadron of F35s for nuclear tasks?
I wonder if there is a way for Germany to integrate themselves into a partner's maintenance deal for the F35 (Italy for example) if they don't end up getting a lot of aircraft.

As far as I know there is no EW version of Eurofighter.

art wrote:

As far as I know there is no EW version of Eurofighter.

I am not an expert in this, but please see here:

New Eurofighter electronic combat role (ECR) concept presented at the IFC

So this concept specifically targets the German requirements according to the article.

This is going to be a very difficult decision for the new Defense Minister. It´s loaded with political ramifications like every major arms deal, even more so in the case of the German Luftwaffe.
I don´t think the Luftwaffe is going to get what it´s technically best for them, but what will be the least problematic purchase in terms of industrial/political relationships. There have been and there will be pressures to buy European as well as pressures from France not to buy the F-35. And there will be a lot of internal polemics and resistance to spend so much money on new fancy weapons. After the end of the Cold War (and even during) the German public opinion has never been particularly in favor of armament deals for their armed forces, although the current tensions with Russia might ease the blow a bit.
In my opinion the best solution for the Luftwaffe would be a new batch of Typhoon, like the already discussed T4 Project Quadriga and the F-35A. This combination has already been adopted with success by the two other NATO Tornado partners, the Royal Air Force and the Italian Air Force. The Italian Air Force is also the only user of Tornado ECR although I am not sure how they plan to replace them, since neither the Typhoon T3 nor the F-35A/B are capable of SEAD missions.
German F-35s could be procured quickly from the Italian FACO in Cameri which is already making Italian and Dutch F-35s without having to start a new assembly line in Germany or buying them directly from Lockheed in the USA.
As for the Typhoon ECR, that would be a really nice machine, especially in the twin seat version but I doubt Eurofighter would be able to develop it within time and budget.

steman wrote:

In my opinion the best solution for the Luftwaffe would be a new batch of Typhoon, like the already discussed T4 Project Quadriga and the F-35A. This combination has already been adopted with success by the two other NATO Tornado partners, the Royal Air Force and the Italian Air Force.

Probably is best solution but that hasn't been a hallmark of this process...

steman wrote:

The Italian Air Force is also the only user of Tornado ECR although I am not sure how they plan to replace them, since neither the Typhoon T3 nor the F-35A/B are capable of SEAD missions.

Primary mission of F-35A is USAF service is SEAD... https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... fc3923bef3

steman wrote:

German F-35s could be procured quickly from the Italian FACO in Cameri which is already making Italian and Dutch F-35s without having to start a new assembly line in Germany or buying them directly from Lockheed in the USA.

I doubt it really matters where it comes from. SH/Growler was also the plan and there is nothing European about those.

steman wrote:

As for the Typhoon ECR, that would be a really nice machine, especially in the twin seat version but I doubt Eurofighter would be able to develop it within time and budget.

Perhaps the olive branch if they choose F-35.

bikerthai wrote:

SeamanBeaumont wrote:

Would be a nail in the head for Boeing

More like office staples. Follow-on P-8A buy will salve the disappointment and.

bt

Hardly. Contact value for P-8s would be maybe a 5th of a SH/Growler order and miniscule in the long term sustainment wise.

SQ22 wrote:

art wrote:

As far as I know there is no EW version of Eurofighter.

I am not an expert in this, but please see here:

New Eurofighter electronic combat role (ECR) concept presented at the IFC

So this concept specifically targets the German requirements according to the article.

Thanks. Reading the Eurofighter blurb in the link, they refer to developing technologies that could migrate to FCAS. If that were to happen the dev cost would be easier to justify. Even better if Tempest could license the IP to reduce dev cost for that programme.

SeamanBeaumont wrote:

Hardly. Contact value for P-8s would be maybe a 5th of a SH/Growler order and miniscule in the long term sustainment wise.

Didn't say it can replace the pain, just putting salve on the wound.

Not talking about the 5 P-8A already ordered but also perhaps follow on orders once the French kills the A320 MMA.

As for sustainment, LOL, they will be sustaining these P-8's long after the F-35 gets replaced In the US fleet. And we have not even talk about the constant upgrades these P-8A gets. More often than those fighters my guess.

bt

bikerthai wrote:

SeamanBeaumont wrote:

Hardly. Contact value for P-8s would be maybe a 5th of a SH/Growler order and miniscule in the long term sustainment wise.

Didn't say it can replace the pain, just putting salve on the wound.

Not talking about the 5 P-8A already ordered but also perhaps follow on orders once the French kills the A320 MMA.

Time to turn off the blinders. Five P-8 was $1.3 bills for the Germans, even another five won’t be that expensive (if they even buy before prod finishes). 45 SH/Growler was going to be upwards of $5 bills.

bikerthai wrote:

As for sustainment, LOL, they will be sustaining these P-8's long after the F-35 gets replaced In the US fleet. And we have not even talk about the constant upgrades these P-8A gets. More often than those fighters my guess.

45 fighters flown an average of 150 hours a year for twenty years and you think the sustainment will be less than five commercial derivative maritime patrol airframe that won’t make 30 years of service.

It’s the Germans, nothing gets upgraded…

SeamanBeaumont wrote:

rivative maritime patrol airframe that won’t make 30 years of service.

Commercial 737 easily makes 30 years. Military 737 with lower flight cycles an push 50 years. See AWACs or even the RAAF E-7 which has not even approached its mid life.

SeamanBeaumont wrote:

Five P-8 was $1.3 bills for the Germans, even another five won’t be that expensive (

5 more would put it in spitting distance.

SeamanBeaumont wrote:

you think the sustainment will be less than five commercial derivative

Not talking about general sustainment. The cost of sustaining those fighters would be more lucrative. Talking about mission system upgrade, like the soon to be contracted INCR 3 Block 2 upgrade for the US and RAAF.

SeamanBeaumont wrote:

the Germans, nothing gets upgraded…

You got me there



bt

bikerthai wrote:

SeamanBeaumont wrote:

rivative maritime patrol airframe that won’t make 30 years of service.

Commercial 737 easily makes 30 years. Military 737 with lower flight cycles an push 50 years. See AWACs or even the RAAF E-7 which has not even approached its mid life.

SeamanBeaumont wrote:

Five P-8 was $1.3 bills for the Germans, even another five won’t be that expensive (

5 more would put it in spitting distance.

SeamanBeaumont wrote:

you think the sustainment will be less than five commercial derivative

Not talking about general sustainment. The cost of sustaining those fighters would be more lucrative. Talking about mission system upgrade, like the soon to be contracted INCR 3 Block 2 upgrade for the US and RAAF.

SeamanBeaumont wrote:

the Germans, nothing gets upgraded…

You got me there



bt

I'd guess the cost of flying the airframe is nothing compared to the cost of keeping the sensors/electronics/warfighting equipment operating. The cost of a P-8 isn't the airframe, it's the massive warfighting electronic suite.

(Also, the cost of flying an E-3 is all about the radar, and not about the airframe.)

bikerthai wrote:

SeamanBeaumont wrote:

rivative maritime patrol airframe that won’t make 30 years of service.

Commercial 737 easily makes 30 years. Military 737 with lower flight cycles an push 50 years. See AWACs or even the RAAF E-7 which has not even approached its mid life.

RAAF E-7 will be replaced in second half of the 2030s. https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... eplacement

I don’t think we will see a new generation of century old support aircraft.

bikerthai wrote:

5 more would put it in spitting distance.

Would make it likely not half of the total.

SeamanBeaumont wrote:

you think the sustainment will be less than five commercial derivative

bikerthai wrote:

Not talking about general sustainment. The cost of sustaining those fighters would be more lucrative. Talking about mission system upgrade, like the soon to be contracted INCR 3 Block 2 upgrade for the US and RAAF.

The Kiwis upgraded their six P-3Ks five years ago for $335 mill. I doubt a P-8 upgrade, where nothing structural or engine related will be touched, will be as much and the layout of the P-8 should make an upgrade far easier to accomplish.

SeamanBeaumont wrote:

RAAF E-7 will be replaced in second half of the 2030s.

Ah, I will be retired by then
I worked on the E-7 project during 9/11. So that would make it the 30 years as you mentioned.

SeamanBeaumont wrote:

will be as much and the layout of the P-8 should make an upgrade far easier to accomplish.

Back-story. The mission racks on the P-8s are based off the E-7 design. If you get a chance to see the communication rack for both aircrafts, you can see the resemblance. The computing racks are also similar, with the P-8A incorporating more weight saving tech.

bt