Planeflyer
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:16 am

keesje wrote:
This selection wouldn’t come as a total surprise when you look at the requirements of the Luftwaffe.



Don’t understand. If the shit hits the fan in Europe Germany will be on the front lines and the ac selected are only suitable in low threat environments. F35’s will do the heavy lifting in Germany flown by the luftwaffe or not.

This decision is akin to the 747-8. BA had the data on the limited size of the VLA market and built the wrong plane.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:13 am

Ozair wrote:
I get the dev stuff but to claim that because a SH is less tech it could be retired earlier as a potential reason is crazy talk.


That is politics in a nutshell. And with precedence....... F-4F. Even downgraded from the F-4E, just as a stopgap until the Tornado arrives.
"Unfortunately" those could be upgraded to a somewhat more modern standard, and the Air-defense Diesel had to last till the Eurofighter came on the lot....

If anything value for money and overall capability would be the two most important points to a German taxpayer, that they are getting good value for their tax dollars and a capability that will ensure their national defence force has the ability to operate effectively in the future battlespace.

With the SH they get neither…


Right now everything but an all out war against Russia is well within the current capabilities, and even then it wouldn´t mean losing the war, as, even with little advantage in quality, there is a lot more quantity on this side of Ukraine.
Keep in mind that buying something new is only considered in terms of opportunity costs vs. keeping the Tornado, not because of capability gabs. They are still being upgrade (ASSTA 4 right now i think, 4.1 after that, 4.2 to be defined, but ~2022).

best regards
Thomas
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seahawk
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:03 am

Planeflyer wrote:
There is another element to this that I don’t think has been discussed which is the tendency in Germany for selecting the tried and true option.

If memory serves didn’t they place the F4 into service as they were being retired by many early adopters?

Not sure what if any role this played in the decision but thought it worth mentioning.


They got RF-4Es in 1971 and F-4F in 1973. Both (F-4E instead of F-4F) were still in production for the USAF at the time.

Planeflyer wrote:
keesje wrote:
This selection wouldn’t come as a total surprise when you look at the requirements of the Luftwaffe.

Don’t understand. If the shit hits the fan in Europe Germany will be on the front lines and the ac selected are only suitable in low threat environments. F35’s will do the heavy lifting in Germany flown by the luftwaffe or not.
This decision is akin to the 747-8. BA had the data on the limited size of the VLA market and built the wrong plane.


If F-18 means E/A-18 they would add more capability to NATO in Europe than a F-35 buy. Many nations will soon have F-35s but none has dedicated electronic attack planes based in Europe.
 
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keesje
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:01 am

Planeflyer wrote:
keesje wrote:
This selection wouldn’t come as a total surprise when you look at the requirements of the Luftwaffe.



Don’t understand. If the shit hits the fan in Europe Germany will be on the front lines and the ac selected are only suitable in low threat environments. F35’s will do the heavy lifting in Germany flown by the luftwaffe or not.

This decision is akin to the 747-8. BA had the data on the limited size of the VLA market and built the wrong plane.


This isn't about steroid politics & muscle talk. It is about the Tornado that has to be replaced soon by the Germans.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
tommy1808
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:51 am

keesje wrote:
It is about the Tornado that has to be replaced soon by the Germans.


The Tornado Fleet has enough hours left in the frames to last till the mid 2030´s. They are currently getting new MAW and flare/Chaff dispensers, GBU-54/GBU-38 capability on 5 Pylons, new Displays, new RWR, Link 16 updates (Air PPLI, Air Platform and System Status, Track Mgmt R) ......

best regards
Thomas
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WIederling
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:27 am

Planeflyer wrote:
Don’t understand. If the shit hits the fan in Europe Germany will be on the front lines.


If the shit hits the fan Europe and especially Germany is a pile of glowing ashes with a star spangled banner fitted.
( And that was never much different. Real danger. We never shew the fake "duck and cover" hysteria you saw elsewhere.)
Murphy is an optimist
 
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seahawk
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:01 am

tommy1808 wrote:
keesje wrote:
It is about the Tornado that has to be replaced soon by the Germans.


The Tornado Fleet has enough hours left in the frames to last till the mid 2030´s. They are currently getting new MAW and flare/Chaff dispensers, GBU-54/GBU-38 capability on 5 Pylons, new Displays, new RWR, Link 16 updates (Air PPLI, Air Platform and System Status, Track Mgmt R) ......

best regards
Thomas


Does not matter if you run out of supply for basic parts like seals, landing gear parts or engine parts for overhaul or if those become prohibitively expensive, as you need to pay a whole supply chain with 60 frames in service.
 
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keesje
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:36 am

The Germans have decided what they want. A big 6th gen platform with the French.

Image

https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/a21753407/france-germany-teaming-up-to-build-superfighter/

Now they are looking for an interim solution. Latest version F18 seems low risk, restoring relations with US.
But a pimped 2 seat Eurofighter might be more acceptable at home.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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seahawk
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:44 am

Can´t be that big if it must fit on the French carrier...
 
tommy1808
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Mon Feb 04, 2019 1:44 pm

seahawk wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
keesje wrote:
It is about the Tornado that has to be replaced soon by the Germans.


The Tornado Fleet has enough hours left in the frames to last till the mid 2030´s. They are currently getting new MAW and flare/Chaff dispensers, GBU-54/GBU-38 capability on 5 Pylons, new Displays, new RWR, Link 16 updates (Air PPLI, Air Platform and System Status, Track Mgmt R) ......

best regards
Thomas


Does not matter if you run out of supply for basic parts like seals, landing gear parts or engine parts for overhaul or if those become prohibitively expensive, as you need to pay a whole supply chain with 60 frames in service.


That is what i meant by opportunity costs... keep a supply line up for 20 years, or buy an interim plane....

seahawk wrote:
Can´t be that big if it must fit on the French carrier...


Doesn´t look that big on CGI either unless that is a truly enormous cockpit canopy.....

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Thomas
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Noshow
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:16 pm

As part of the interim plans 33 new Eurofighters will be ordered for the Luftwaffe by the german DoD. Early built Luftwaffe EF will be retired.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:15 pm

seahawk wrote:
Planeflyer wrote:
keesje wrote:
This selection wouldn’t come as a total surprise when you look at the requirements of the Luftwaffe.

Don’t understand. If the shit hits the fan in Europe Germany will be on the front lines and the ac selected are only suitable in low threat environments. F35’s will do the heavy lifting in Germany flown by the luftwaffe or not.
This decision is akin to the 747-8. BA had the data on the limited size of the VLA market and built the wrong plane.


If F-18 means E/A-18 they would add more capability to NATO in Europe than a F-35 buy. Many nations will soon have F-35s but none has dedicated electronic attack planes based in Europe.

The E/A-18 is almost certainly part of Boeing's bid and most likely the primary reason why the F-18 is even under consideration. Boeing themselves announced this last year in Berlin: https://theaviationgeekclub.com/boeing- ... rnado-ecr/

With the F-18 able to carry nuclear weapons (https://www.defensenews.com/space/2018/ ... gn-review/), the rumors of 45 F-18 would probably split into 20-25 E/A-18 to replace the ~20 Tornado ECR and another 20-25 F/A-18 for nuclear sharing. The remaining 40 Tornado IDS (and potentially RECCE) would then most likely be covered by more Eurofighters (on top of the 33 already announced this week).
Some unnamed "expert" claimed that nuclear-certifying the Eurofighter might take about 8 years (https://www.stuttgarter-nachrichten.de/ ... 1f9f0.html). It is doubtful, IMO, that it is still in production then. The F-18 seems like a safer option.

The German government is under pressure from the industry for the cancellation of tranche 3B Eurofighters several years ago; I'm not sure if other European governments could face the same problem (all of them had cancelled). "Re-ordering" those jets in exchange for the industry dropping their claims may be the easiest way to solve it.
Also note that those 33 confirmed orders probably won't be delivered before 2020 - 2021; the companies involved announced "a few years of no work".
 
Ozair
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:27 am

mxaxai wrote:
The E/A-18 is almost certainly part of Boeing's bid and most likely the primary reason why the F-18 is even under consideration. Boeing themselves announced this last year in Berlin: https://theaviationgeekclub.com/boeing- ... rnado-ecr/

Germany gaining access to the EA-18G is not a certainty despite Boeing suggesting otherwise. The RAAF worked for a number of years on their Growler acquisition and the process was neither smooth or issue free.

mxaxai wrote:
With the F-18 able to carry nuclear weapons (https://www.defensenews.com/space/2018/ ... gn-review/), the rumors of 45 F-18 would probably split into 20-25 E/A-18 to replace the ~20 Tornado ECR and another 20-25 F/A-18 for nuclear sharing. The remaining 40 Tornado IDS (and potentially RECCE) would then most likely be covered by more Eurofighters (on top of the 33 already announced this week).

While the F/A-18 was cleared to carry the B61 it has yet to be cleared to carry the B61-12 version now being deployed and there are no plans to do this (i'd suggets that is lazy reporting from DefenseNews). Unless the Germans want to pay for the integration work I don’t see how an F/A-18 Super Hornet acquisition will actually continue Nuclear Sharing.

See the following, https://www.gao.gov/assets/700/692202.pdf

System 1 aircraft are the F-16 and the Tornado while System 2 aircraft are the F-15E, B-2 and F-35.

The B61 Mod 12 SAR here https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/1018991.pdf also only lists the above aircraft as integration options.

I would expect that if the USN has a future need to deliver the B-61 it will be done by the F-35C which makes sense given these units are the designated strike assets. I would love to see, if anyone has it, an source document from the USN that suggested the SH was slated to carry the B61 Mod 12.

mxaxai wrote:
Some unnamed "expert" claimed that nuclear-certifying the Eurofighter might take about 8 years (https://www.stuttgarter-nachrichten.de/ ... 1f9f0.html). It is doubtful, IMO, that it is still in production then. The F-18 seems like a safer option.

Eight years is entirely possible but would not require a new aircraft, those designated for carriage could be modified for the role from existing platforms.

mxaxai wrote:
The German government is under pressure from the industry for the cancellation of tranche 3B Eurofighters several years ago; I'm not sure if other European governments could face the same problem (all of them had cancelled). "Re-ordering" those jets in exchange for the industry dropping their claims may be the easiest way to solve it.
Also note that those 33 confirmed orders probably won't be delivered before 2020 - 2021; the companies involved announced "a few years of no work".

Makes sense and in light of the economic issues emerging. Stupid that this decision couldn’t have been made a couple of years ago as the reduction in work is likely to impact the production price of any new German Eurofighter order.
 
YIMBY
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:29 am

mxaxai wrote:
Some unnamed "expert" claimed that nuclear-certifying the Eurofighter might take about 8 years (https://www.stuttgarter-nachrichten.de/ ... 1f9f0.html).


Political requirement?

If it were just technical it could have been done already.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:01 pm

Ozair wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
The E/A-18 is almost certainly part of Boeing's bid and most likely the primary reason why the F-18 is even under consideration. Boeing themselves announced this last year in Berlin: https://theaviationgeekclub.com/boeing- ... rnado-ecr/

Germany gaining access to the EA-18G is not a certainty despite Boeing suggesting otherwise. The RAAF worked for a number of years on their Growler acquisition and the process was neither smooth or issue free.

I cannot find any reports of issues, except for internal Australian politics. Could you elaborate? I doubt that the US government would object. After all, it would be a quite unique capability in Europe.

YIMBY wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
Some unnamed "expert" claimed that nuclear-certifying the Eurofighter might take about 8 years (https://www.stuttgarter-nachrichten.de/ ... 1f9f0.html).


Political requirement?

If it were just technical it could have been done already.

The problem was primarily that the integration of US nuclear weapons requires the jet manufacturer to surrender significant intellectual property to the US. Now that the Eurofighter is no longer cutting edge and is nearing the end of its production, there should be fewer concerns about that. The political side is involved insofar as that somebody has to pay; the manufacturer has no interest in doing it on his own.
 
Ozair
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:48 pm

mxaxai wrote:
I cannot find any reports of issues, except for internal Australian politics. Could you elaborate? I doubt that the US government would object. After all, it would be a quite unique capability in Europe.

I haven’t seen it reported in the media, it was passed to me by friends who worked on the program. The issues primarily centred on the information sharing agreements between the US and Australia. Given the US had never exported a dedicated EW aircraft previously there were many hurdles to jump over. Within that context Australia has a very good relationship with the US in the information sharing space, certainly a longer standing and more solid relationship than Germany, and still had issues.

Germany could ask for and receive the Growler, but the capability provided IMO would likely not be the same as the US or Australia due to classification and sensitivity issues.

mxaxai wrote:
The problem was primarily that the integration of US nuclear weapons requires the jet manufacturer to surrender significant intellectual property to the US. Now that the Eurofighter is no longer cutting edge and is nearing the end of its production, there should be fewer concerns about that. The political side is involved insofar as that somebody has to pay; the manufacturer has no interest in doing it on his own.

I would expect policy and approvals as the main blocker. Any request and all modifications have to go through the US system and be approved and certified at multiple levels and by multiple agencies.
 
WIederling
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:55 am

Ozair wrote:
I would expect policy and approvals as the main blocker. Any request and all modifications have to go through the US system and be approved and certified at multiple levels and by multiple agencies.


How does the Tornado ECR compare to contemporary US offerings?
Murphy is an optimist
 
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seahawk
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:14 am

WIederling wrote:
Ozair wrote:
I would expect policy and approvals as the main blocker. Any request and all modifications have to go through the US system and be approved and certified at multiple levels and by multiple agencies.


How does the Tornado ECR compare to contemporary US offerings?


With the last update okayish to an F-16CJ, but worlds apart from a Growler.
 
WIederling
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:25 am

seahawk wrote:
WIederling wrote:
Ozair wrote:
I would expect policy and approvals as the main blocker. Any request and all modifications have to go through the US system and be approved and certified at multiple levels and by multiple agencies.


How does the Tornado ECR compare to contemporary US offerings?


With the last update okayish to an F-16CJ, but worlds apart from a Growler.


Unsurprising.
1990 introduction ( Tornado ECR) vs 2010 introduction ( EA-18 Growler ).
Murphy is an optimist
 
Planeflyer
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:19 pm

W/0 stealth Germany will be forced to spend huge money on growler like systems that are in many ways bandaids .

RF hardware is riding the 5 g wave. This will improve both hardware and software so that in few years we will have software defined radar( actually elements of it already exist).

In short even w EW support, detection ranges increase by 30-50% for 4 th gen but only 5-10% for 5th gen.

The path forward is 5 th gen w loyal wingmen type programs so that adversaries are not even tempted to mess w NATO.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:53 pm

Planeflyer wrote:
W/0 stealth Germany will be forced to spend huge money on growler like systems that are in many ways bandaids . .


The German Army has an airborn raid concept to screw up the enemies rear. A400Ms and Helicopters have probably more use from a dedicated ECM asset with HARM dangling from it than stealth aircraft doing escort duty. SEAD/DEAD is also a GAF specialization within NATO, parking the Tornado ECR and buying F-35 would mean giving up that roles. After giving up the "The eyes of NATO" status with the retirement of the RF-4E and only a rather small number of Recce/ECR Tornados that would probably be too far.....

best regards
Thomas
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Planeflyer
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:32 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Planeflyer wrote:
W/0 stealth Germany will be forced to spend huge money on growler like systems that are in many ways bandaids . .


The German Army has an airborn raid concept to screw up the enemies rear. A400Ms and Helicopters have probably more use from a dedicated ECM asset with HARM dangling from it than stealth aircraft doing escort duty. SEAD/DEAD is also a GAF specialization within NATO, parking the Tornado ECR and buying F-35 would mean giving up that roles. After giving up the "The eyes of NATO" status with the retirement of the RF-4E and only a rather small number of Recce/ECR Tornados that would probably be too far.....

best regards
Thomas


Tommy, I am sorry but this legacy thinking.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:01 am

Planeflyer wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Planeflyer wrote:
W/0 stealth Germany will be forced to spend huge money on growler like systems that are in many ways bandaids . .


The German Army has an airborn raid concept to screw up the enemies rear. A400Ms and Helicopters have probably more use from a dedicated ECM asset with HARM dangling from it than stealth aircraft doing escort duty. SEAD/DEAD is also a GAF specialization within NATO, parking the Tornado ECR and buying F-35 would mean giving up that roles. After giving up the "The eyes of NATO" status with the retirement of the RF-4E and only a rather small number of Recce/ECR Tornados that would probably be too far.....

best regards
Thomas


Tommy, I am sorry but this legacy thinking.


Hahaha... no, it is not. Legacy thinking is that air power is the do it all. It ain't. Air power can not hold, occupy or take territory away from anyone. If there is a lesson from 100 years of modern warfare, it is that troops on the ground win wars, air power only keeps you from losing one.
The most effective way to use ground forces is to have them strike where they have surprise and superior firepower. Good luck achieving that on the front lines against a near peer armed force. Getting troops into the enemies rear will, for the time being, be a task exclusively carried out by non-stealthy assets, and for them EW support is just as crucial as a stealthy frame to keep fighters away and knock out targets that within their range. You can jam an S400 battery, you can not momentarily destroy one that comes online 200 miles away

I am on record in this thread that I would support buying F35s as a tornado Replacement, but your argument against something like the Growler is pure nonsense. It has a unique ability that the F35 doesn't have, and as you yourself pointed out there will be plenty of F35 flying within NATO. there are not all that many jamming aircraft or dedicated sead/dead assets.

Best regards
Thomas
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aviationaware
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:46 am

F18 would be
- faster to procure
- cheaper to procure
- cost half as much to operate
- come pre-certified

Which is why I have no doubt at all that the German DoD will go for the Eurofighter. They just love to fuck up.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:31 am

Planeflyer wrote:
W/0 stealth Germany will be forced to spend huge money on growler like systems that are in many ways bandaids .

RF hardware is riding the 5 g wave. This will improve both hardware and software so that in few years we will have software defined radar( actually elements of it already exist).

In short even w EW support, detection ranges increase by 30-50% for 4 th gen but only 5-10% for 5th gen.

The path forward is 5 th gen w loyal wingmen type programs so that adversaries are not even tempted to mess w NATO.


Germany plans to fight in a combined EU/NATO force and for this the E/A-18 adds more capability than additional F-35s, as many partners will have F-35s, but none have dedicated EW/SEAD aircraft based in Europe.
 
Planeflyer
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:40 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Planeflyer wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

The German Army has an airborn raid concept to screw up the enemies rear. A400Ms and Helicopters have probably more use from a dedicated ECM asset with HARM dangling from it than stealth aircraft doing escort duty. SEAD/DEAD is also a GAF specialization within NATO, parking the Tornado ECR and buying F-35 would mean giving up that roles. After giving up the "The eyes of NATO" status with the retirement of the RF-4E and only a rather small number of Recce/ECR Tornados that would probably be too far.....

best regards
Thomas


Tommy, I am sorry but this legacy thinking.


Hahaha... no, it is not. Legacy thinking is that air power is the do it all. It ain't. Air power can not hold, occupy or take territory away from anyone. If there is a lesson from 100 years of modern warfare, it is that troops on the ground win wars, air power only keeps you from losing one.
The most effective way to use ground forces is to have them strike where they have surprise and superior firepower. Good luck achieving that on the front lines against a near peer armed force. Getting troops into the enemies rear will, for the time being, be a task exclusively carried out by non-stealthy assets, and for them EW support is just as crucial as a stealthy frame to keep fighters away and knock out targets that within their range. You can jam an S400 battery, you can not momentarily destroy one that comes online 200 miles away

I am on record in this thread that I would support buying F35s as a tornado Replacement, but your argument against something like the Growler is pure nonsense. It has a unique ability that the F35 doesn't have, and as you yourself pointed out there will be plenty of F35 flying within NATO. there are not all that many jamming aircraft or dedicated sead/dead assets.

Best regards
Thomas


Plz explain to me how an A400 is going to penetrate contested airspace?

The whole purpose of stealth is create surprise against near peer adversaries, so much so that they are deterred.
 
Planeflyer
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:47 am

seahawk wrote:
Planeflyer wrote:
W/0 stealth Germany will be forced to spend huge money on growler like systems that are in many ways bandaids .

RF hardware is riding the 5 g wave. This will improve both hardware and software so that in few years we will have software defined radar( actually elements of it already exist).

In short even w EW support, detection ranges increase by 30-50% for 4 th gen but only 5-10% for 5th gen.

The path forward is 5 th gen w loyal wingmen type programs so that adversaries are not even tempted to mess w NATO.


Germany plans to fight in a combined EU/NATO force and for this the E/A-18 adds more capability than additional F-35s, as many partners will have F-35s, but none have dedicated EW/SEAD aircraft based in Europe.


The F35 is the best sead ac in existence. It is designed to be used in the first hour in the most highly contested radar environments.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:29 am

Planeflyer wrote:
Plz explain to me how an A400 is going to penetrate contested airspace?


The same way non-stealthy assets always did that. Make it uncontested for the duration of the mission.
Its not like the old equipment, Tornado ECR escorting C-160, hasn´t been tested against western and eastern air defenses for decades you know. Can you name a single conflict where ground based air defense worked as advertised?
The A400M is much more capable for penetration as the C160 was, makes total sense to pair it with a more advanced suppression aircraft, which the F35 is not. Jack of almost all trades that it is, it can´t do all of that.

The whole purpose of stealth is create surprise against near peer adversaries, so much so that they are deterred.


A near Peer adversary also has stealth aircraft. From that point on you have perfect reason to strike first, because, thanks to light, guided, penetrating weapons a flight of four stealth fighters can reliably wipe out a whole wing in their shelters.

best regards
Thomas
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RJMAZ
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:31 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Can you name a single conflict where ground based air defense worked as advertised?

In the 20th century they might not have worked as advertised. In the future, any ground based missile system currently in production would absolutely lethal to a 4th gen aircraft.

Buying 4th gen aircraft today is like equipping your army with bows and arrows. You could say the army is armed and has the ability to kill the enemy but they would take massive loses in a conflict.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:19 am

RJMAZ wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Can you name a single conflict where ground based air defense worked as advertised?

In the 20th century they might not have worked as advertised. In the future, any ground based missile system currently in production would absolutely lethal to a 4th gen aircraft.


A claim that has been made for each and every previous generation of SAMs as well. Tactics adapted rather quickly.

Buying 4th gen aircraft today is like equipping your army with bows and arrows. You could say the army is armed and has the ability to kill the enemy but they would take massive loses in a conflict.


Massive losses are ok as long as the enemy has more massive losses. A brigade of mobile, armored troops in the enemies rear raging havoc, cutting the forwards troops legs of, is probably worth a quite a few air assets, as long as it is less than trying to break them trough the enemies front lines. Wars are won by logistics after all.
Light Infantry forces have been quite effective in denying territory to the enemy, regardless of how many air assets got thrown at them or how advanced they have been.

best regards
Thomas
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duboka
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:13 am

https://www.aero.de/news-30916/Luftwaff ... ghter.html

It seems like the Luftwaffe is going to order 50 Eurofighters as a replacement for the Tornado.
But it's still open, which aircraft should be bought for the nuclear bomber role.
 
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keesje
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:57 am

A design with vertical stabilizer seems to be studied

Image
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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seahawk
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:05 am

Could you please stop the spam. The FCAS is not meant to replace the Tornado.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:37 pm

Planeflyer wrote:
Tommy, I am sorry but this legacy thinking.

Non-stealth assets will be part of the forces for the foreseeable future. That ranges from small drones, large UAVs and cruise missiles over helicopters and transport aircraft to AWACS, ASW, legacy fighters and also artillery. All those will need protection. If Eurofighter pilots in Cyprus feel threatened by Syrian SAMs, how do you expect those other assets to survive anywhere remotely close to the frontline?

keesje wrote:
A design with vertical stabilizer seems to be studied

Didn't you mean without? :duck:
What do you think about this concept art showing the belly?
Image
FCAS moves into programme set-up under Dirk Hoke
[...]
Like FCAS, the new internal set-up is designed to be more integrated, connected and global in its approach. The programme aims to create an eco-system of linked assets which can deliver the full range of air power missions and provide more effective operations in denied environments.
Responding to current and future threats, such as advanced integrated air defence systems and hypersonic weapons, can no longer be done solely by a next-generation fighter. As such the team will work to create a comprehensive, open and scalable system of systems, leveraging physical and data assets such as Remote Carriers and an Air Combat Cloud.
"The big challenge is how to integrate a highly complex project into a transversal team. The first half-year will focus on ramping up the necessary resources in engineering, programme and other relevant functions," explains Bruno Fichefeux, Head of FCAS programme.

What's happening in 2019?
• The first FCAS contract between France and Germany will start in March 2019, with a Joint Concept Study which will last 2 to 3 years. This study will be steered jointly by Airbus and Dassault with the support of selected key national industry players.
• In parallel, Airbus and Dassault will initiate their operational cooperation (establishing a joint plateau for the concept study, defining governance for future programme phases, etc.)

Who does what?
Airbus Defence and Space will have the lead in the Unmanned Air Systems domain, as well as on the connectivity, combat cloud and global system-of-system architecture level. The company will also jointly build the next-generation fighter – with Dassault Aviation as lead architect. Whilst shaping the interface with the French and German customers, Airbus Defence and Space will prepare and support the integration of Spain as a third partner in the programme.
 
Planeflyer
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Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:49 am

Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:31 pm

mxaxai wrote:
Planeflyer wrote:
Tommy, I am sorry but this legacy thinking.

Non-stealth assets will be part of the forces for the foreseeable future. That ranges from small drones, large UAVs and cruise missiles over helicopters and transport aircraft to AWACS, ASW, legacy fighters and also artillery. All those will need protection. If Eurofighter pilots in Cyprus feel threatened by Syrian SAMs, how do you expect those other assets to survive anywhere remotely close to the frontline?


Agree not every ac needs to be stealthy the fact that EF stationed in Cyprus are in the S400 engagement envelope should tell us all we need to know.

keesje wrote:
A design with vertical stabilizer seems to be studied

Didn't you mean without? :duck:
What do you think about this concept art showing the belly?
Image
FCAS moves into programme set-up under Dirk Hoke
[...]
Like FCAS, the new internal set-up is designed to be more integrated, connected and global in its approach. The programme aims to create an eco-system of linked assets which can deliver the full range of air power missions and provide more effective operations in denied environments.
Responding to current and future threats, such as advanced integrated air defence systems and hypersonic weapons, can no longer be done solely by a next-generation fighter. As such the team will work to create a comprehensive, open and scalable system of systems, leveraging physical and data assets such as Remote Carriers and an Air Combat Cloud.
"The big challenge is how to integrate a highly complex project into a transversal team. The first half-year will focus on ramping up the necessary resources in engineering, programme and other relevant functions," explains Bruno Fichefeux, Head of FCAS programme.

What's happening in 2019?
• The first FCAS contract between France and Germany will start in March 2019, with a Joint Concept Study which will last 2 to 3 years. This study will be steered jointly by Airbus and Dassault with the support of selected key national industry players.
• In parallel, Airbus and Dassault will initiate their operational cooperation (establishing a joint plateau for the concept study, defining governance for future programme phases, etc.)

Who does what?
Airbus Defence and Space will have the lead in the Unmanned Air Systems domain, as well as on the connectivity, combat cloud and global system-of-system architecture level. The company will also jointly build the next-generation fighter – with Dassault Aviation as lead architect. Whilst shaping the interface with the French and German customers, Airbus Defence and Space will prepare and support the integration of Spain as a third partner in the programme.


It looks promising and certainly France and Germany have high expectations for FCAS which makes the choice of obsolete ac for the current force all the more ironic.
 
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Slug71
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:52 am

mxaxai wrote:
Planeflyer wrote:
Tommy, I am sorry but this legacy thinking.

Non-stealth assets will be part of the forces for the foreseeable future. That ranges from small drones, large UAVs and cruise missiles over helicopters and transport aircraft to AWACS, ASW, legacy fighters and also artillery. All those will need protection. If Eurofighter pilots in Cyprus feel threatened by Syrian SAMs, how do you expect those other assets to survive anywhere remotely close to the frontline?

keesje wrote:
A design with vertical stabilizer seems to be studied

Didn't you mean without? :duck:
What do you think about this concept art showing the belly?
Image
FCAS moves into programme set-up under Dirk Hoke
[...]
Like FCAS, the new internal set-up is designed to be more integrated, connected and global in its approach. The programme aims to create an eco-system of linked assets which can deliver the full range of air power missions and provide more effective operations in denied environments.
Responding to current and future threats, such as advanced integrated air defence systems and hypersonic weapons, can no longer be done solely by a next-generation fighter. As such the team will work to create a comprehensive, open and scalable system of systems, leveraging physical and data assets such as Remote Carriers and an Air Combat Cloud.
"The big challenge is how to integrate a highly complex project into a transversal team. The first half-year will focus on ramping up the necessary resources in engineering, programme and other relevant functions," explains Bruno Fichefeux, Head of FCAS programme.

What's happening in 2019?
• The first FCAS contract between France and Germany will start in March 2019, with a Joint Concept Study which will last 2 to 3 years. This study will be steered jointly by Airbus and Dassault with the support of selected key national industry players.
• In parallel, Airbus and Dassault will initiate their operational cooperation (establishing a joint plateau for the concept study, defining governance for future programme phases, etc.)

Who does what?
Airbus Defence and Space will have the lead in the Unmanned Air Systems domain, as well as on the connectivity, combat cloud and global system-of-system architecture level. The company will also jointly build the next-generation fighter – with Dassault Aviation as lead architect. Whilst shaping the interface with the French and German customers, Airbus Defence and Space will prepare and support the integration of Spain as a third partner in the programme.


Looks a lot like the Tempest without vstabs.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:02 pm

Slug71 wrote:
Looks a lot like the Tempest without vstabs.

Indeed. I expect the Tempest-FCAS pair to be comparable to the Rafale-Eurofighter pair: Very similar in capability but separate for political reasons.

Planeflyer wrote:
It looks promising and certainly France and Germany have high expectations for FCAS which makes the choice of obsolete ac for the current force all the more ironic.

The EA-18 is hardly obsolete, in fact the US navy was still taking delivery of them just over a year ago. They also ordered more F/A-18s despite the F-35C being available. Additionally, the 'Next Generation Jammer' pod will fly first on the EA-18, with integration on the F-35 deferred indefinitely. (though it seems likely that the F-35B will get some added equipment, since the marines don't operate the F/A-18)
Then there's the possibility that Boeing offered a 'Block III' EA-18 inline with the F/A-18, which the US navy didn't order yet but seems quite logical for newly built jets.
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/21 ... ittershare

Further, it seems counterintuitive to put a powerful jamming radar on a stealthy asset. All you do is illuminate yourself. Stealth seems much more useful for passive sensing and delivering your payload. Not to mention that bulky non-stealth pods under a stealth jet significantly increase its detectability.
 
Ozair
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:57 pm

mxaxai wrote:
The EA-18 is hardly obsolete, in fact the US navy was still taking delivery of them just over a year ago.

The EA-18 isn't obsolete but the ALQ-99 is.

mxaxai wrote:
They also ordered more F/A-18s despite the F-35C being available.

To put that in context the fleet size of the SH is over double the expected fleet size of the F-35C and that was always the plan. The SH is also currently cheaper to acquire and with the issues the USN is having with fleet aircraft availability and airframe hours (a result of heavy tasking and a low investment in maintenance and depot capability) it makes perfect sense to acquire more SH in the short term. Despite those acquisitions, the SH is slated to leave the fleet by 2040. I expect come the middle 2030s the USN will continue to take F-35C, or whatever variant is available then, due to the same reasons it is taking SH today.

mxaxai wrote:
Additionally, the 'Next Generation Jammer' pod will fly first on the EA-18, with integration on the F-35 deferred indefinitely. (though it seems likely that the F-35B will get some added equipment, since the marines don't operate the F/A-18)

The USMC operate the F/A-18, just not the EA-18. The NGJ will almost certainly migrate to the F-35 but at the moment it is not a priority given the USN now has an adequate fleet of EA-18.

mxaxai wrote:
Then there's the possibility that Boeing offered a 'Block III' EA-18 inline with the F/A-18, which the US navy didn't order yet but seems quite logical for newly built jets.
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/21 ... ittershare

It is almost certain that SH Blk III will be an upgrade and not a new acquisition program. Once the USN and Kuwait take their last jets the line will, if Boeing don't win Finland or India (and Germany doesn't buy), roll over to upgrading existing jets to the Blk III standard.

mxaxai wrote:
Further, it seems counterintuitive to put a powerful jamming radar on a stealthy asset. All you do is illuminate yourself. Stealth seems much more useful for passive sensing and delivering your payload. Not to mention that bulky non-stealth pods under a stealth jet significantly increase its detectability.

That isn't a good understanding of how a stand-off jammer, which the EA-18 is, works. In the context of stand-off jamming the host platform being stealth or not isn't really important. It also depends on what type of jamming the platform is conducting, whether noise or deception. The issue remains though that either once the aircraft is detected or while it is moving around the battlespace having a stand-off jamming capability on a stealth platform would make that aircraft more survivable and probably allow it to position itself for the most effective jamming.

As for the external pod, the expectation is the NGJ fitted to the F-35 would likely reside within something like the Terma Multi mission pod, which would preserve stealth characteristics, with a small increase in overall RCS, over the current NGJ pod. An internal fit is possible but would have to engineer around the probable heat issues.

The F-35 Pod Enclosure will provide real estate on the F-35, which can be used to expand the F-35 Special Mission functionality, by allowing the F-35 to fly Next Generation EW and ISR systems, such as Jammers and EO sensors.

https://www.terma.com/press/news-2012/f ... n-display/

Image

The thing to note with any SH acquisition by Germany is the fleet likely becomes unsustainable past 2040 when the USN retires its fleet. No amount of spares or tapped out airframes sitting in the desert will overcome the main sustainment issues of mission systems and avionics. Noting also that the SH is not a more upgradeable platform than the F-35 and it is likely less able to be modified by Germany than the F-35. Germany gains no greater access to source code with a SH over an F-35 while the F-35's systems and software are designed for third parties to integrate with.

Realistically, the plan ahead for Germany should just be more Eurofighters and give up nuclear sharing.
 
texl1649
Posts: 964
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:53 am

Something tells me any FCAS delivery targets will wind up slipping a la A400M over the next few decades.

I’m dubious, as well, that the USN will actually retire the super hornets in 2040. The US Navy has confirmed plans to keep buying them through 2023 now, with 9,000 hour life frames, and I just don’t expect those to be retired in under 20 years. 2050 would perhaps be a better guesstimate given how shortfalls tend to happen long term.

https://www.defensenews.com/digital-sho ... -upgrades/
 
mxaxai
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:35 pm

Ozair wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
Then there's the possibility that Boeing offered a 'Block III' EA-18 inline with the F/A-18, which the US navy didn't order yet but seems quite logical for newly built jets.
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/21 ... ittershare

It is almost certain that SH Blk III will be an upgrade and not a new acquisition program. Once the USN and Kuwait take their last jets the line will, if Boeing don't win Finland or India (and Germany doesn't buy), roll over to upgrading existing jets to the Blk III standard.

It seems illogical to sell jets only to offer an upgrade right after delivery. The USN may not take any new built Blk III F-18s but I'd expect Boeing to offer them to Germany and Finland. Further, it is often argued that the F-18 (or Eurofighter) will become unsustainable around 2040 but (a) that's still over 20 years into the future and (b) that's approximately when FCAS EIS is planned.
Ozair wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
Further, it seems counterintuitive to put a powerful jamming radar on a stealthy asset. All you do is illuminate yourself. Stealth seems much more useful for passive sensing and delivering your payload. Not to mention that bulky non-stealth pods under a stealth jet significantly increase its detectability.

That isn't a good understanding of how a stand-off jammer, which the EA-18 is, works. In the context of stand-off jamming the host platform being stealth or not isn't really important. It also depends on what type of jamming the platform is conducting, whether noise or deception. The issue remains though that either once the aircraft is detected or while it is moving around the battlespace having a stand-off jamming capability on a stealth platform would make that aircraft more survivable and probably allow it to position itself for the most effective jamming.

As for the external pod, the expectation is the NGJ fitted to the F-35 would likely reside within something like the Terma Multi mission pod, which would preserve stealth characteristics, with a small increase in overall RCS, over the current NGJ pod. An internal fit is possible but would have to engineer around the probable heat issues.

The F-35 Pod Enclosure will provide real estate on the F-35, which can be used to expand the F-35 Special Mission functionality, by allowing the F-35 to fly Next Generation EW and ISR systems, such as Jammers and EO sensors.

AFAIK the EA-18 carries a total of 5 pods: 1 centerline for low-frequency, 2 on the wing for medium frequency and 2 on the wing for high frequency. That centerline Terma pod can probably only host one of them (though the high-frequency pods are smaller, so maybe there's some extra room for them). You'll also need air intakes and exhausts to power and cool the jammers.

And my point still stands that jamming involves sending a powerful rf signal towards the enemy, which entirely counters the point of stealth. The only advantage I see is that it becomes easier to get out of precarious situations, e. g. when the enemy launches radar guided anti-jammer missiles. However, stealthy assets that are protected by a jammer can probably become even stealthier. So a combo of F-35 + EA-18 makes perfect sense. In the context of European forces, many other nations have ordered the F-35 but none have a comparable EW platform.
 
Planeflyer
Posts: 1390
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:49 am

Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:37 pm

Ozair wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
The EA-18 is hardly obsolete, in fact the US navy was still taking delivery of them just over a year ago.

The EA-18 isn't obsolete but the ALQ-99 is.

mxaxai wrote:
They also ordered more F/A-18s despite the F-35C being available.

To put that in context the fleet size of the SH is over double the expected fleet size of the F-35C and that was always the plan. The SH is also currently cheaper to acquire and with the issues the USN is having with fleet aircraft availability and airframe hours (a result of heavy tasking and a low investment in maintenance and depot capability) it makes perfect sense to acquire more SH in the short term. Despite those acquisitions, the SH is slated to leave the fleet by 2040. I expect come the middle 2030s the USN will continue to take F-35C, or whatever variant is available then, due to the same reasons it is taking SH today.

mxaxai wrote:
Additionally, the 'Next Generation Jammer' pod will fly first on the EA-18, with integration on the F-35 deferred indefinitely. (though it seems likely that the F-35B will get some added equipment, since the marines don't operate the F/A-18)

The USMC operate the F/A-18, just not the EA-18. The NGJ will almost certainly migrate to the F-35 but at the moment it is not a priority given the USN now has an adequate fleet of EA-18.

mxaxai wrote:
Then there's the possibility that Boeing offered a 'Block III' EA-18 inline with the F/A-18, which the US navy didn't order yet but seems quite logical for newly built jets.
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/21 ... ittershare

It is almost certain that SH Blk III will be an upgrade and not a new acquisition program. Once the USN and Kuwait take their last jets the line will, if Boeing don't win Finland or India (and Germany doesn't buy), roll over to upgrading existing jets to the Blk III standard.

mxaxai wrote:
Further, it seems counterintuitive to put a powerful jamming radar on a stealthy asset. All you do is illuminate yourself. Stealth seems much more useful for passive sensing and delivering your payload. Not to mention that bulky non-stealth pods under a stealth jet significantly increase its detectability.

That isn't a good understanding of how a stand-off jammer, which the EA-18 is, works. In the context of stand-off jamming the host platform being stealth or not isn't really important. It also depends on what type of jamming the platform is conducting, whether noise or deception. The issue remains though that either once the aircraft is detected or while it is moving around the battlespace having a stand-off jamming capability on a stealth platform would make that aircraft more survivable and probably allow it to position itself for the most effective jamming.

As for the external pod, the expectation is the NGJ fitted to the F-35 would likely reside within something like the Terma Multi mission pod, which would preserve stealth characteristics, with a small increase in overall RCS, over the current NGJ pod. An internal fit is possible but would have to engineer around the probable heat issues.

The F-35 Pod Enclosure will provide real estate on the F-35, which can be used to expand the F-35 Special Mission functionality, by allowing the F-35 to fly Next Generation EW and ISR systems, such as Jammers and EO sensors.

https://www.terma.com/press/news-2012/f ... n-display/

Image

The thing to note with any SH acquisition by Germany is the fleet likely becomes unsustainable past 2040 when the USN retires its fleet. No amount of spares or tapped out airframes sitting in the desert will overcome the main sustainment issues of mission systems and avionics. Noting also that the SH is not a more upgradeable platform than the F-35 and it is likely less able to be modified by Germany than the F-35. Germany gains no greater access to source code with a SH over an F-35 while the F-35's systems and software are designed for third parties to i

ntegrate with.

Realistically, the plan ahead for Germany should just be more Eurofighters and give up nuclear sharing.


Thanks for the thorough explanation.

I’ll only add that while EW is not obsolete, solely relying on it, as this decision implies to carry out offensive air operations most certainly is.
 
Ozair
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:07 am

mxaxai wrote:
Further, it is often argued that the F-18 (or Eurofighter) will become unsustainable around 2040 but (a) that's still over 20 years into the future and (b) that's approximately when FCAS EIS is planned.

I expect the Eurofighter to last longer than that because it has multiple operators. The SH only has two currently and shortly a third but the RAAF has a clear stated intent to remove from service and Kuwait is as close to useless as they get.

mxaxai wrote:
AFAIK the EA-18 carries a total of 5 pods: 1 centerline for low-frequency, 2 on the wing for medium frequency and 2 on the wing for high frequency. That centerline Terma pod can probably only host one of them (though the high-frequency pods are smaller, so maybe there's some extra room for them). You'll also need air intakes and exhausts to power and cool the jammers.

The EA-18 is a stand-off jammer so it requires a heavier investment in jamming pods but even then, it is unlikely to actually operate with 5 pods given the significant drag that creates as well as the fuel it displaces. A quick google image search shows the standard config is three pods and two tanks.

Obviously the dedicated EW variant of a multi mission pod is going to have cooling and power. Noting as well that the F-35 having two bomb bays could, with sufficient heat management, also hold additional jamming equipment in those locations and merely deploy the antennas around the airframe. It does that all while still carrying the full internal fuel load in a less draggy airframe which would provide a range significantly greater than the EA-18G.

But the above is irrelevant in the German case.

mxaxai wrote:
And my point still stands that jamming involves sending a powerful rf signal towards the enemy, which entirely counters the point of stealth. The only advantage I see is that it becomes easier to get out of precarious situations, e. g. when the enemy launches radar guided anti-jammer missiles.

Think about the context. As a stand-off jammer the EA-18G isn’t typically deployed far enough forward to be within the range of those types of systems or if so those systems are focused on the threats the EA-18 is protecting. The aircraft also typically operate in pairs and have the ability to cooperate, including switching on and off their jamming equipment as required. They also typically operate in concert with other platforms to do some of the electronic sniffing for them, such as RC-135s. Few nations also have the SAM or A2A missile depth to waste a shot for a home on jam scenario, when with jamming switched off that missile shot becomes useless.

Using a stealth platform allows the aircraft to potentially be deployed much closer to the area of interest, increasing jamming power and better supporting the assets. When it switches off the jamming it has the ability to return to a much reduced detection configuration. Detecting the jamming is also dependant on the jamming technique used.

I don’t think either of us knows how effective that jammer will work in a near peer threat situation but the US experience with Red Flag should give an indication of how it operates. We certainly don’t hear too much talk of Blue Air Jammers being targeted and destroyed in these exercises.

mxaxai wrote:
However, stealthy assets that are protected by a jammer can probably become even stealthier. So a combo of F-35 + EA-18 makes perfect sense. In the context of European forces, many other nations have ordered the F-35 but none have a comparable EW platform.

The in-built jamming the F-35 has, the ALQ-239, should more than allow for it to penetrate defences to the degree necessary. Any EA-18G operated by a European Nation would be protecting legacy aircraft, not 5th gen assets in a future conflict.
 
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keesje
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:29 pm

I think it would more sense to develop a European EW / Jammer suit / pod, basest on existing and newly developed technology available. It could be used by other aircraft types too, e.g. Italian also need to replace their ECR's and the Brits are probably also looking for short term capabilities. The single engine F35 seems hardly the best possible solution for anyone. The french are upgrading their SPECTRA system, maybe that could help too.

Image
Italian EWR Tornado ECR
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Planeflyer
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:18 pm

keesje wrote:
I think it would more sense to develop a European EW / Jammer suit / pod, basest on existing and newly developed technology available. It could be used by other aircraft types too, e.g. Italian also need to replace their ECR's and the Brits are probably also looking for short term capabilities. The single engine F35 seems hardly the best possible solution for anyone. The french are upgrading their SPECTRA system, maybe that could help too.

Image
Italian EWR Tornado ECR


What about the future so scares you?

It’s not bad enough that Germany is spending billions on an obsolete concept but you want Europe to waste even more money .

Put it into the FCAS.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:11 pm

Planeflyer wrote:
Put it into the FCAS.

I agree. Spending millions, if not billions, to develop a very niche capability with an EIS not earlier than 10 years from now is foolish. Better to get the EA-18 (or comparable offers, if available) now and replace it with whatever is ready in 25 years.

Further, there is no shortage of experience in Germany, France or overall Europe with regards to active radars. At the same time, the general economic impact of a self-developed and -produced radar jammer is very low. A whole aircraft like FCAS, on the other hand, leads to the development of new system architectures, new production processes and new materials that may find their way into civilian products.
Ozair wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
However, stealthy assets that are protected by a jammer can probably become even stealthier. So a combo of F-35 + EA-18 makes perfect sense. In the context of European forces, many other nations have ordered the F-35 but none have a comparable EW platform.

The in-built jamming the F-35 has, the ALQ-239, should more than allow for it to penetrate defences to the degree necessary. Any EA-18G operated by a European Nation would be protecting legacy aircraft, not 5th gen assets in a future conflict.

Australia ordered both the F-35 and the EA-18 in 2008, after being a partner in the F-35 program since 2002. The EA-18 order was then confirmed again in 2013. First F-35 was delivered in 2018, first EA-18 was delivered in 2017. I'm pretty certain that these aircraft are expected to complement each other, with each having unique capabilities.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:20 pm

keesje wrote:
I think it would more sense to develop a European EW / Jammer suit / pod, basest on existing and newly developed technology available


ECM is mostly software, you can do that on purchased hardware just as well. Radar jamming hardware isn't all that exciting from an engineering standpoint. Incidently building Radars and RWR has all those hardware skills in it, and Radars benefit from being on the edge of T/R technology just as much.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
texl1649
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:39 pm

Does anyone really think Germany could procure dozens of FCAS aircraft before 2045? I'm guessing at LEAST 12 years of development once the program is defined and the contract is awarded, and it's probably at least 10 years from that today (likely more than 12). Pretty sketches are irrelevant to any evaluations as to replacing essentially broken/outdated/worn out Tornados asap.
 
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keesje
Posts: 12942
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:37 pm

Planeflyer wrote:
keesje wrote:
I think it would more sense to develop a European EW / Jammer suit / pod, basest on existing and newly developed technology available. It could be used by other aircraft types too, e.g. Italian also need to replace their ECR's and the Brits are probably also looking for short term capabilities. The single engine F35 seems hardly the best possible solution for anyone. The french are upgrading their SPECTRA system, maybe that could help too.

Image
Italian EWR Tornado ECR


What about the future so scares you?

It’s not bad enough that Germany is spending billions on an obsolete concept but you want Europe to waste even more money .
Put it into the FCAS.


Nothing scares me. Maybe it could exported to the US, Australia or others too, replacing ALQ-99s.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
aviationaware
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:55 pm

keesje wrote:
Planeflyer wrote:
keesje wrote:
I think it would more sense to develop a European EW / Jammer suit / pod, basest on existing and newly developed technology available. It could be used by other aircraft types too, e.g. Italian also need to replace their ECR's and the Brits are probably also looking for short term capabilities. The single engine F35 seems hardly the best possible solution for anyone. The french are upgrading their SPECTRA system, maybe that could help too.

Image
Italian EWR Tornado ECR


What about the future so scares you?

It’s not bad enough that Germany is spending billions on an obsolete concept but you want Europe to waste even more money .
Put it into the FCAS.


Nothing scares me. Maybe it could exported to the US, Australia or others too, replacing ALQ-99s.


I doubt any other nation is interested in buying Airbus military aircraft since they managed nothing but screwups in the past. The only ones who still bother are the Arabs.
 
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keesje
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Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:03 pm

aviationaware wrote:
keesje wrote:
Planeflyer wrote:

What about the future so scares you?

It’s not bad enough that Germany is spending billions on an obsolete concept but you want Europe to waste even more money .
Put it into the FCAS.


Nothing scares me. Maybe it could exported to the US, Australia or others too, replacing ALQ-99s.


I doubt any other nation is interested in buying Airbus military aircraft since they managed nothing but screwups in the past. The only ones who still bother are the Arabs.


What about the future scares you?
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway

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