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mxaxai
Posts: 2058
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:23 pm

Ozair wrote:
Interesting comment from the LM Exec VP and CFO who thinks that the F-35 isn’t out of contention for Germnay yet.

New F-35 Block Buy is Close, Lockheed Says


Getting the price under $80 million in lot 13 will “certainly help with those possibilities,” he said. Germany has indicated a preference for the F/A-18E/F, but Possenriede said, “We don’t think we’re out of the German competition yet.”

http://airforcemag.com/Features/Pages/2 ... Says-.aspx

I think he is just talking earnings call sales talk but would certainly be a coup if it did come back into contention.

I'm not aware of any new developments since the preference for the F/A-18 became public. With the current environment and considering what's been leaked until now, the F-35 is still out - unless LM has some sort of Trump card on their hands. I think this is just Possenriede throwing a bone to the press.
 
YIMBY
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:08 pm

Ozair wrote:
YIMBY wrote:
What has more to do with this discussion?

The most fundamental question when planning to acquire new equipment is why do you need it. Evaluating the future military threats is the very starting point.

Fighters are not just toys for the pilots. They are to protect us.

The German Government has already established this, we don’t need to debate it because they will replace the Tornado fleet with another aircraft. The question isn’t why, the question is which. To take it a step further Germany has already agreed to develop a stealth aircraft. They are fully aware of the future military threat and what is required.

YIMBY wrote:
What was false?

Again, stand by your points or don’t bother posting them at all.

YIMBY wrote:
When, where and why should German Tornados or whatever else have gone into Russia?

The most useful weapon is the one that is never used!^n

Yimby, you can’t stay on topic, if you make a claim then support it. What point is there to responding if you keep changing the direction and never answering anything?


How many of the above questions you then answered? If my math is correct, that is about 0.
What is wrong focusing to the core of the topic?

For sure the most important question is why. That is the starting point. There is no which without why. If you do not want to have a discussion about why, you could call the moderator to close the thread or the whole forum. I recognize that it is a very political issue, but some politics is unavoidable in the military forum, and let the moderators tell where is the limit. Even if the why is fixed by the German government, we can speculate what it is, as the government may not tell everything.

In real life, however, the why is not a stable issue. The technology develops, in the USA, in Europe, in Russia and in the Middle East. There will be new scientific discoveries. The political landscape changes. Yesterday's friend can be tomorrow's foe or vice versa. Therefore the decision makers should continuously ask why, what for do they need defense capacity, how much and which are the best ways to build the necessary capacity. It is never correct to say that the previous capacity should be replaced 1:1 as it is very unlikely that the previous decision makers had accurate idea on today's world.

I know very well that the military prefer premature closing and want to run controlled projects in controlled environments. That is where all those standardized project management protocols come from. Agile just does not match with military. Maybe good so?
 
Planeflyer
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Sat Oct 26, 2019 12:33 am

YIMBY wrote:
Ozair wrote:
YIMBY wrote:
What has more to do with this discussion?

The most fundamental question when planning to acquire new equipment is why do you need it. Evaluating the future military threats is the very starting point.

Fighters are not just toys for the pilots. They are to protect us.

The German Government has already established this, we don’t need to debate it because they will replace the Tornado fleet with another aircraft. The question isn’t why, the question is which. To take it a step further Germany has already agreed to develop a stealth aircraft. They are fully aware of the future military threat and what is required.

YIMBY wrote:
What was false?

Again, stand by your points or don’t bother posting them at all.

YIMBY wrote:
When, where and why should German Tornados or whatever else have gone into Russia?

The most useful weapon is the one that is never used!^n

Yimby, you can’t stay on topic, if you make a claim then support it. What point is there to responding if you keep changing the direction and never answering anything?


How many of the above questions you then answered? If my math is correct, that is about 0.
What is wrong focusing to the core of the topic?

For sure the most important question is why. That is the starting point. There is no which without why. If you do not want to have a discussion about why, you could call the moderator to close the thread or the whole forum. I recognize that it is a very political issue, but some politics is unavoidable in the military forum, and let the moderators tell where is the limit. Even if the why is fixed by the German government, we can speculate what it is, as the government may not tell everything.

In real life, however, the why is not a stable issue. The technology develops, in the USA, in Europe, in Russia and in the Middle East. There will be new scientific discoveries. The political landscape changes. Yesterday's friend can be tomorrow's foe or vice versa. Therefore the decision makers should continuously ask why, what for do they need defense capacity, how much and which are the best ways to build the necessary capacity. It is never correct to say that the previous capacity should be replaced 1:1 as it is very unlikely that the previous decision makers had accurate idea on today's world.

I know very well that the military prefer premature closing and want to run controlled projects in controlled environments. That is where all those standardized project management protocols come from. Agile just does not match with military. Maybe good so?


The why is simple; they wanted to protect the local supplier.

Why not is too; at the sacrifice of pilots, deterrence and mission effectiveness.

Because Germany knows their NATO partners will provide the heavy lifting.

At first glance not a bad move but a very risky one given the nature of the neighborhood.
 
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Grizzly410
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:40 am

Today during the Airbus Trade Media Briefing of Airbus Defence&Space, Kurt Rossner the Head of Military Aircraft said ADS wants to offer Eurofighter ECR SEAD for the German Tornado fleet replacement.
Nuclear capability need to be discussed but technically possible.
https://twitter.com/RAeSTimR/status/1191632965329133569
https://twitter.com/geoindica/status/11 ... 7367665664
https://twitter.com/AgueraMartin/status ... 5376439296


Not exactly related with Tornado replacement but still with German AF, Tim Robinson also reports Rossner said the current German 110 Eurofighter tranche 2/3 will receive new radar E-Scan (but the slide mention the contract is still expected…). And there is an offer (project Quadriga) for tranche 1 to be replaced by 38 new production aircrafts.
https://twitter.com/RAeSTimR/status/1191635998637219841
In order to be old and wise, one must first be young and dumb.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:06 am

Planeflyer wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Ozair wrote:
Do you think they don't know what you are stating can occur? Yet they still continue to develop stealth aircraft and other platforms for their future military force structure. You can claim that is simply bad acquisition policy or institutional bias but that just isn't represented by the facts. .


I explained why stealth still makes sense for the military even when they know damn well it will lose most of its effectiveness in the foreseeable future.

Planeflyer wrote:
Who has demonstrated this ?


just about any radio astronomer in the last couple of decades, that routinely pick out signals not just way weaker than those on Ozirs graph, but actually well below the noise floor. They could literally pick targets out of the data by the local reduction in background radiation. Go talk to some folks in cosmology, it is absolutely mind boggling what they can do with lots of raw data and computing power. We can, for quite a while, detect single photons.

The computers at the Square Kilometre array have tender specifications aiming for radio noise suppression on almost Tempest levels, and are still put in cabinets that dampen another 130db. Because otherwise the equipment could pick that noise up, while the Antenna is looking in a completely different direction. And we are talking about very, very focused pieces of equipment with almost optical quality surfaces, designed to minimize side lobes..... and yet they can pick up the stray signals from a computers bus, in a concrete building 100 metres away, in a radio shielding cabinet.

best regards
Thomas


C’mon Tommy, are those radio astronomers able to discriminate these signals in real time?


Nope, they can't, but that is a question of computing power, as I have stated several times I believe.

If GAF believed stealth will become obsolete why would they invest In FCAS. After all by your reckoning it’ll be obsolete before it is fielded.


Also explained at length, and not just by me.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Ozair
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:39 am

Grizzly410 wrote:
Today during the Airbus Trade Media Briefing of Airbus Defence&Space, Kurt Rossner the Head of Military Aircraft said ADS wants to offer Eurofighter ECR SEAD for the German Tornado fleet replacement.
Nuclear capability need to be discussed but technically possible.
https://twitter.com/RAeSTimR/status/1191632965329133569
https://twitter.com/geoindica/status/11 ... 7367665664
https://twitter.com/AgueraMartin/status ... 5376439296

Well I won't claim credit for the idea as I suggested it just three weeks ago but makes sense to me. Not sure why they are focused on the SPEAR EW as the primary SEAD weapon but assume it would also be accompanied by a larger ARM such as HARM/AARGM.

Image

It is an interesting configuration suggested as I am sure those forward pylons are not wet currently. I thought there were also issues with the placement of A2A weapons so close to A2G weapons, and assume fuel tanks, on those stations. Surely using conformal tanks, already a development item for the aircraft, would be a better long term option than converting those pylons. Do the EW pods exist currently or will that also be a development required?
 
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seahawk
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:16 pm

That is maximum useless offer. More expensive and less capable than the EA-18 and even more obsolete than the Super Hornet when compared to a F-35.
 
Planeflyer
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:56 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Planeflyer wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

I explained why stealth still makes sense for the military even when they know damn well it will lose most of its effectiveness in the foreseeable future.



just about any radio astronomer in the last couple of decades, that routinely pick out signals not just way weaker than those on Ozirs graph, but actually well below the noise floor. They could literally pick targets out of the data by the local reduction in background radiation. Go talk to some folks in cosmology, it is absolutely mind boggling what they can do with lots of raw data and computing power. We can, for quite a while, detect single photons.

The computers at the Square Kilometre array have tender specifications aiming for radio noise suppression on almost Tempest levels, and are still put in cabinets that dampen another 130db. Because otherwise the equipment could pick that noise up, while the Antenna is looking in a completely different direction. And we are talking about very, very focused pieces of equipment with almost optical quality surfaces, designed to minimize side lobes..... and yet they can pick up the stray signals from a computers bus, in a concrete building 100 metres away, in a radio shielding cabinet.

best regards
Thomas


C’mon Tommy, are those radio astronomers able to discriminate these signals in real time?


Nope, they can't, but that is a question of computing power, as I have stated several times I believe.

If GAF believed stealth will become obsolete why would they invest In FCAS. After all by your reckoning it’ll be obsolete before it is fielded.


Also explained at length, and not just by me.

Best regards
Thomas


Tommy your explanations have been speculative hope rather than proof statements.

We could end this thread and move on to less circular subjects if the obvious facts in front us were acknowledged; the political leaders , over the objections of the AF have chosen a local product over a superior imported product in the hopes that in the future they can develop such a product(FCAS).
 
tommy1808
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:37 pm

Planeflyer wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Planeflyer wrote:

C’mon Tommy, are those radio astronomers able to discriminate these signals in real time?


Nope, they can't, but that is a question of computing power, as I have stated several times I believe.

If GAF believed stealth will become obsolete why would they invest In FCAS. After all by your reckoning it’ll be obsolete before it is fielded.


Also explained at length, and not just by me.

Best regards
Thomas


Tommy your explanations have been speculative hope rather than proof statements.


the consistent improvement of available computing power has nothing to do with hope at all....

We could end this thread and move on to less circular subjects if the obvious facts in front us were acknowledged; the political leaders , over the objections of the AF have chosen a local product over a superior imported product in the hopes that in the future they can develop such a product(FCAS).


Oh, i am perfectly fine with ordering a mix of Growlers and F35, as i agree they are the best options currently available.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Ozair
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:45 pm

The anti-stealth talk continues to amuse, especially in the context of the recent release of the LOUT.

Airbus reveals classified LOUT stealth testbed

Airbus Defence & Space has revealed a more than decade-long research and demonstration effort into very low observable (LO) technologies, conducted as a classified effort for the German defence ministry.
Showing its LO UAV testbed – or LOUT – platform at Manching on 4 November, Airbus future combat air system (FCAS) programme manager Mario Hertzog said the company began initial concept work in 2007. This led to a contract award in 2010 to refine configuration and material choices, and the production of a diamond planform demonstrator was completed in 2014.



Lessons learned from the LOUT programme will be available for potential adaptation during a long-term evolution activity on the Eurofighter Typhoon, and on a proposed French-German-Spanish FCAS development, Hertzog says.

"Stealth is and will remain an enabler for survivability," he notes.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... es-462003/

Can we now believe that Stealth will be an enduring capability for combat aircraft going forward because Airbus have officially stated it….?

Some images of the testbed;

Image

Image

Image
 
Planeflyer
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Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:49 am

Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:21 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Planeflyer wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

Nope, they can't, but that is a question of computing power, as I have stated several times I believe.



Also explained at length, and not just by me.

Best regards
Thomas


Tommy your explanations have been speculative hope rather than proof statements.


the consistent improvement of available computing power has nothing to do with hope at all....

We could end this thread and move on to less circular subjects if the obvious facts in front us were acknowledged; the political leaders , over the objections of the AF have chosen a local product over a superior imported product in the hopes that in the future they can develop such a product(FCAS).


Oh, i am perfectly fine with ordering a mix of Growlers and F35, as i agree they are the best options currently available.

best regards
Thomas


I don’t think you understand the scope of the problem. To do what you suggest would take something like 10e 11 increase in compute speed assuming you could shrink the antenna size to make it practical.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_astronomy

Quantum computing may make this feasible but I’d have think through that a lot more to be half way sure.
 
Ozair
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Nov 06, 2019 4:59 am

At the very least it appears that Eurofighter production will continue in Germany with the wholesale replacement of all German Tranche One jets. The order is expected early next year. https://twitter.com/GarethJennings3/sta ... 5502532608

Below the Tranche one info you can also see Airbus's offer for the Tornado replacement, 45 with strategic capabilities (assume this means strike and nuclear capable) and 40 with EA SEAD capability.
 
Ozair
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Tue Nov 12, 2019 8:32 pm

Airbus expects the German Government to release a new RFI for the Tornado replacement. To me it seems clear now that an EA capability is an attractive capability for the GAF and, now that Airbus has a competitive option, the RFI will be changed to reflect that acquisition.

In some ways though this actually favours the SH/Growler combo as it will likely remain the cheaper platform to acquire and almost certainly, if NGJ is offered, more capable. it will also not have to undergo a separate nuclear dev cycle that the Eurofighter will require. It remains interesting to see how much of an impact domestic workshare will have on the selection and whether that overcomes the other two advantages of the SH/Growler.

Revised RFI anticipated for German Tornado replacement to accommodate electronic attack mission

Representatives from German industry have said they anticipate the German government issuing an updated request for information (RFI) for its Tornado replacement requirement, to include the electronic attack (EA) mission not stipulated in the original solicitation.

The statement was made by officials from Airbus who were promoting the company’s Electronic Combat Reconnaissance (ECR) version of the Eurofighter to replace the Luftwaffe’s Tornado ECR aircraft. They noted that, while the original RFI and subsequent request for proposals (RFP) did include suppression of enemy air defences (SEAD) as one of the core missions of the current Tornado ECR, airborne EA is a completely new mission set that was not originally covered.

...

https://www.janes.com/article/92518/rev ... ck-mission

Image
 
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seahawk
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:50 am

And it brings in the F-35 again.
 
Ozair
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:32 am

seahawk wrote:
And it brings in the F-35 again.

Does it?
 
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seahawk
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:38 am

A new RFI, makes the previous pre-selection invalid.
 
Ozair
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:52 am

seahawk wrote:
A new RFI, makes the previous pre-selection invalid.

I'd be interested in a source for that given the F-35 wasn't excluded based on anything other than the German Government bowing to pressure from Airbus and Dassault. Why would this new selection be any different?
 
Ozair
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:05 pm

So some interesting comments by the German Air Force Deputy Chief of Staff Plans and Policy. Germany has made a NATO commitment to an EW capability and will solve that through three different means, stand-off, stand in and escort. The stand-off capability will be 10 larger aircraft, the stand-in approximately 12 fighter sized aircraft and the escort covered by expendable decoys similar to MALD.

Germany sets out ‘challenging’ airborne electronic attack timeline for NATO

The German Air Force (Luftwaffe) is waiting on a government decision to launch a programme to field a dedicated airborne electronic attack (EA) capability for NATO by the mid-2020s, a senior officer said on 13 November.

Speaking in Berlin, Luftwaffe Brigadier-General Christian Leitges, Deputy Chief of Staff Plans and Policy, said the service faces a rapid timeline to deliver the anti-access area denial (A2AD) capability that Germany has committed to NATO under the country's Luftgestützte Wirkung im Elektromagnetischen Spektrum (luWES) programme, and that it expects the go-ahead from the government shortly.

"There is a German commitment to NATO to provide [airborne] jamming in the very near future, say within about five years. This is a very rapid timeline and a very big challenge," Gen Leitges said at the IQPC International Fighter conference, adding that Project luWES should be signed-off in the not-too-distant future if this timeline is to be realised.

According to Gen Leitges, Project luWES is based upon a three-strand system-of-systems (SoS). This comprises a stand-off jammer aircraft, an escort jammer, and a stand-in jammer. The stand-off jammer would consist of about 10 larger aircraft yet to be acquired by the Luftwaffe that would operate at a distance from the target area using an integrated/podded/or palleted EA system; the escort jammer that would be about 12 Eurofighter ECR or Boeing EA-18G Growler platforms; while the stand-in jammer would be an unknown number of small expendable assets such as Remote Carrier unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) or MBDA SPEAR-EW decoys operating in the ground-based air defence system's no-escape zone. "There will be attrition in this mission, and so air-launched decoys will be important [to remove humans from danger]," the general said. "We are just about to start this project."

...

https://www.janes.com/article/92552/ger ... e-for-nato

Obviously the Eurofighter EW upgrades are designed to make that platform competitive in the selection of the stand-in section. Anyone have an idea on what platform may suit the stand-off, perhaps a business jet or A220 is an option as an A320/330 seems too big for that requirement? It also highlights where the Germans see the application of the Eurofighter EW version/Growler in the battlespace. The expendable will likely be a development program as suggested in the article.

A reversal of the previous image but this time with green EW beams...
Image
 
mxaxai
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:33 pm

I wonder why they put the double seater in front? Just marketing? Not sure why you'd need the second pilot in that mission.
 
Ozair
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:34 pm

mxaxai wrote:
I wonder why they put the double seater in front? Just marketing? Not sure why you'd need the second pilot in that mission.

Looking at the graphic I thought they were both duel seat aircraft? I expect that the two seats would be standard as with the Growler for the EW role.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:07 am

Ozair wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
I wonder why they put the double seater in front? Just marketing? Not sure why you'd need the second pilot in that mission.

Looking at the graphic I thought they were both duel seat aircraft? I expect that the two seats would be standard as with the Growler for the EW role.

The dueal seat aicraft have that "hump" behind the canopy, which seems to be missing on the second jet. Might be the angle, though, or some artistic freedom. Compare for example the photos here from a fairly similar angle, both single and double seat: http://airforcephotos.blogspot.com/2011 ... chive.html
 
Ozair
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:06 am

mxaxai wrote:
Ozair wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
I wonder why they put the double seater in front? Just marketing? Not sure why you'd need the second pilot in that mission.

Looking at the graphic I thought they were both duel seat aircraft? I expect that the two seats would be standard as with the Growler for the EW role.

The dueal seat aicraft have that "hump" behind the canopy, which seems to be missing on the second jet. Might be the angle, though, or some artistic freedom. Compare for example the photos here from a fairly similar angle, both single and double seat: http://airforcephotos.blogspot.com/2011 ... chive.html

I would put that down to artistic license. For example if you look at the pylons the new locations for the fuel tanks are not as forward as the Airbus graphic showed here, https://twitter.com/RAeSTimR/status/1191632965329133569 and the rear aircraft is apparently carrying AGM-88 which might not be possible given the large EW pods.
 
angad84
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Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:04 pm

Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:59 am

Ozair wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
Ozair wrote:
Looking at the graphic I thought they were both duel seat aircraft? I expect that the two seats would be standard as with the Growler for the EW role.

The dueal seat aicraft have that "hump" behind the canopy, which seems to be missing on the second jet. Might be the angle, though, or some artistic freedom. Compare for example the photos here from a fairly similar angle, both single and double seat: http://airforcephotos.blogspot.com/2011 ... chive.html

I would put that down to artistic license. For example if you look at the pylons the new locations for the fuel tanks are not as forward as the Airbus graphic showed here, https://twitter.com/RAeSTimR/status/1191632965329133569 and the rear aircraft is apparently carrying AGM-88 which might not be possible given the large EW pods.


I cant find the link but I remember reading a tweet or article that said the Tranche 3 (and 2 as well?) jets will be EA-capable but the definitive EA capability will be based around new-build two-seaters.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:41 pm

Ozair wrote:
Anyone have an idea on what platform may suit the stand-off, perhaps a business jet or A220 is an option as an A320/330 seems too big for that requirement?


There are 13 surplus A400M coming and I would be disappointed, but not at surprised, if they become the stand-off EW aircraft.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
mxaxai
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Tue Nov 26, 2019 8:39 pm

Just to back up the whole ordeal of "nuclear sharing" with some numbers, only 22% of Germans support the nuclear sharing agreement. Meanwhile, 87% of the people think that a re-election of Trump will negatively impact transatlantic relations, which IMHO implies that buying US aircraft that carry US bombs has to happen with as little public attention as possible. Remember that Germany will hold elections for Angela Merkels successor in 2021, and the current minister of defence is the prime candidate for that position.

Source (same as in the FCAS thread): https://www.koerber-stiftung.de/pressem ... gkeit-1926
 
Ozair
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:18 am

I’m not sure why LM is bothering with this but interesting in the context of current comments in this thread.

LM continues to push F-35 to Germany

Lockheed Martin continues to promote its Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) to Germany, despite the country's government excluding the aircraft from the list of options for its Tornado replacement programme earlier in the year.

Speaking at the Berlin Security Conference (BSC) on 26 November, the company's Country Director for Germany International Business Development, Alexander Walford, said that the move to exclude the F-35A in January was "a political decision", and that Lockheed Martin continues to highlight the capabilities of its aircraft with a view to the Luftwaffe adopting it as a Tornado replacement platform.

"[The German government] hasn't said specifically what the reason was for the F-35's exclusion, [but] it was political. We respect their decision, but we still believe in the interoperability and survivability advantages that the F-35 brings," Walford said.

In excluding the F-35A as one of the potential replacement platforms for its fleet of Panavia Tornado aircraft, the Bundeswehr is now only looking at the Eurofighter Typhoon and Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet (the Super Hornet is being offered in conjunction with the EA-18G Growler electronic attack aircraft).

With the Luftwaffe looking to retire its 90 Tornado Interdiction and Strike (IDS)/Electronic Combat Reconnaissance (ECR) aircraft with 85 new platforms from 2030, and needing the replacement to enter service in about 2025, a request for proposals (RFP) for an aircraft to perform 10 current Tornado missions and two additional but undisclosed missions was issued in early 2018.

...

https://www.janes.com/article/92830/lm- ... to-germany
 
Ozair
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:30 pm

Understandably Airbus is really keen for this order and development to go ahead. Making claims that they are already behind on development though, when the concept itself was likely rolled out to the German Government less than six months ago, isn’t a great look. I think they seems quite intimidated by the SH/Growler proposal and see this as a means of permanently shutting that down.

Airbus presses for German Tornado decision to meet electronic attack requirements

Airbus is pressing the German government to expedite its Panavia Tornado replacement decision so that it can develop the electronic attack (EA) capabilities needed for both NATO and the Future Combat Air System (FCAS), a senior company official told Jane's on 27 November.

Speaking at the Berlin Security Conference 2019, Airbus Marketing Manager Combat Air Systems, Dirk Zickora, said that a decision is needed on which platform the Luftwaffe will receive to replace its 90 Tornados so as to release the funds needed for Airbus to develop the Electronic Combat Reconnaissance (ECR) version of the Eurofighter. If selected, this Eurofighter ECR would fulfil the government's EA commitment to NATO in the mid-2020s and feed into the New Generation Fighter (NGF) element of FCAS that is set to become operational in the early-2040s.

"We need a decision on the Tornado replacement to trigger the release of funding [for the Eurofighter ECR]. We are on, or slightly behind, the timeline [to meet the NATO and FCAS commitments] already, and we cannot really afford any further delay," Zickora said.

While Zickora warned that funding is needed to realise the Eurofighter ECR concept, he noted that some work is already underway through other parallel programmes. On the EA side, Hensoldt is developing the stand-off jammer element of the Luftwaffe's planned future capability, and a miniaturised version of this will form the basis of the system to be fitted to the escort jammer element for which Airbus is pitching the Eurofighter ECR. On the aircraft side, Eurofighter is developing the Long-Term Evolution (LTE) standard that will include the advanced cockpit to be fitted to the Eurofighter ECR.

...

https://www.janes.com/article/92867/air ... quirements
 
mxaxai
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:45 pm

This is mainly pressure on the German government IMO. They're warning them that if they don't decide soon, Airbus can't meet the schedule for the planned EIS because some things simply need time. As long as no decision is made, Airbus is not willing to invest further funds and manpower. After all, it's just a lot of wasted money if the deal doesn't go through. There are no other customers lining up (today) for a nuclear-capable or ECR version of the Eurofighter.

Same with FCAS. The current contracts only include funding for very short-term goals - and that funding is peanuts compared to the projected program cost. It's a warning that the government can't let them starve today and complain about delays tomorrow.
 
Ozair
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:20 pm

There is a lot contained in the following article mostly related to how the Rafale and Eurofighter programs will struggle to be a path for systems development in preparation for FCAS.

In the context of this thread though there has been continued suggestion that the GAF will never operate in areas with high threat or where stealth may provide a significant advantage. The presentation provided by the GAF Brigadier General for Plans and Policy makes it very clear they have a requirement for penetrating and operating in an A2AD environment.


Are Eurofighter and Rafale Modernization Paths Crossing Cutting or Parallel?: Perspectives from the International Fighter Conference 2019



Here the challenge is that there is no single Eurofighter but there are national Eurofighters which share commonality.

Indeed, the European Air Group has set up a working group to address ways to enhance the capability of Eurofighters to become more congruent among the national air forces.

This effort is a key one and a harbinger of success for either FCAS or Team Tempest.

With regard to mid-term modernization of Eurofighter, Airbus recently announced the launch of a new version of Eurofighter focused on delivering new electronic warfare capabilities to the force.

At the International Fighter Conference in Berlin Airbus and its partners introduced for the first time concrete details of the new Eurofighter electronic combat role (ECR) concept. This role will enlarge Eurofighter’s multi-role capabilities and further increase the survivability of coalition forces in hostile environments.

Collaborative electronic warfare capabilities are essential for future combined air operations.

Initial Eurofighter ECR capability is expected to be available by 2026, followed by further development steps and full integration into the future combat air system (FCAS) ecosystems.

Eurofighter ECR will be able to provide passive emitter location as well as active jamming of threats, and will offer a variety of modular configurations for electronic attack (EA) and suppression/destruction of enemy air defence (SEAD/DEAD). Latest national escort jammer technology will ensure national control over features such as mission data and data analysis. The concept also features a new twin-seat cockpit configuration with a multi-function panoramic touch display and a dedicated mission cockpit for the rear-seat.
The concept is driven by the leading aerospace companies Airbus, Hensoldt, MBDA, MTU, Premium Aerotec, Rolls-Royce and supported by the German national industry bodies BDSV and BDLI. It specifically targets the German Air Force requirements for an airborne electronic attack capability. Furthermore it is the single opportunity to deliver such capabilities on the basis of national sovereignty, whilst also securing key military technologies within Germany.

A presentation by Brigadier General Christian Leitges of the Luftwaffe made it clear why launching a new variant of the Eurofighter was needed certainly by the Luftwaffe.

He underscored that Germany had made a NATO commitment to expand its EW capabilities for the common defense.

Brigadier General Leitges argued: “We need to assure, that airborne assets can operate effect based in the whole spectrum of air operations against current and future hostile weapon systems.

“That means to prioritize the build up of capabilities that haven‘t been focused on in the past, e.g. Airborne Electronic attack.”

Brigadier General Leitges looked at the evolution of EW over time and underscored that the Luftwaffe had been organized I the past to penetrate ED “fences” but that the new challenge is to penetrate not simply fences but the A2/AD bubble.

The following slide from his presentation highlighted his perspective on the challenge:
...

https://sldinfo.com/2019/12/are-eurofig ... ence-2019/

The image provided by the GAF Brigadier General,

Image
 
Ozair
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Dec 18, 2019 8:00 pm

The final currently contracted Eurofighter has been delivered to the GAF. A additional order is expected shortly that will see the replacement of all German Tranche One aircraft and of course, hence the reason for posting I this thread, the high probability that the Eurofighter will replace the Tornado.

Germany receives final Eurofighter under current programme-of-record

Germany has received the final Eurofighter combat aircraft under its current programme-of-record (PoR), the consortium confirmed to Jane's on 18 December.

The final Tranche 3A aircraft, Luftwaffe serial 31.53, departed Airbus' Manching production facility in southern Germany on 17 December. With this delivery, the Luftwaffe has received into service 143 Eurofighters since the first Tranche 1 aircraft was handed over in 2003.

With this milestone, Germany became the second partner nation after the United Kingdom to conclude its Eurofighter PoR. The UK Royal Air Force (RAF) received its final Tranche 3A aircraft from BAE Systems' Warton site on 27 September, which brought to an end a production run of 160 aircraft for the RAF that began in 2003.

In the near-term the Manching facility near Munich will focus on delivering parts for assembly at the other national production facilities in Italy, Spain, and the UK. A Eurofighter representative noted to Jane's that the line will remain busy through to Project Quadriga that will see the Luftwaffe replace 32 early Tranche 1 aircraft with up to 38 new build and active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar-equipped Eurofighters. A contract for this is expected from the German government shortly.

This continued component manufacture and Project Quadriga work will see the line at Manching through to any eventual decision on Germany's Tornado replacement and NATO electronic attack requirements (the latter is dubbed the Luftgestützte Wirkung im Elektromagnetischen Spektrum [luWES] programme). If successful and sole-source selected for both, Eurofighter could be contracted to build a further 97 aircraft for the Luftwaffe on top of the 38 already earmarked for Project Quadriga.

...

https://www.janes.com/article/93272/ger ... -of-record
 
mxaxai
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:02 pm

angad84 wrote:
I cant find the link but I remember reading a tweet or article that said the Tranche 3 (and 2 as well?) jets will be EA-capable but the definitive EA capability will be based around new-build two-seaters.

I just came across this Janes article with a quote from Airbus' head of Air Combat Kurt Rossner that "the ECR/SEAD Eurofighter would "almost certainly" be a twin-seat aircraft with the rear cockpit devoted to operating the complex mission systems."
So that's settled I guess.
https://www.janes.com/article/92377/air ... equirement

Janes also notes, as Ozair did here, that the forward pylons - which would be used for drop tanks in this proposal - are currently dry and need to receive extra plumbing.
 
CX747
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Sat Dec 21, 2019 7:27 pm

I'm glad to see the Airbus written errr German Government written RFI has been re-written. I'm also glad to see Airbus, not the German Government was pushing for the new RFI to be released. Where was Boeing in any of this?!?!?!?

Looking forward to the sole source Airbus errr competition between Airbus and Boeing that will take place.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
Nicoeddf
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:38 pm

CX747 wrote:
I'm glad to see the Airbus written errr German Government written RFI has been re-written. I'm also glad to see Airbus, not the German Government was pushing for the new RFI to be released. Where was Boeing in any of this?!?!?!?

Looking forward to the sole source Airbus errr competition between Airbus and Boeing that will take place.


How is that different from anywhere else, well, in the world? And why would Germany care about Boeing more than the US about Airbus?

And don't give me taxpayer and or best product crap. It's military procurement.
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that your bought with your sacrifice
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vr773
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Mon Dec 23, 2019 3:36 am

Also, where is the evidence that Airbus altered a military procurement RFI? That would be a pretty big scandal.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Dec 25, 2019 7:54 am

Nicoeddf wrote:
And don't give me taxpayer and or best product crap. It's military procurement.


Its likely beneficial for the tax payer to buy arms locally, probably to about twice the price of purchase abroad an import.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Nicoeddf
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Dec 25, 2019 9:01 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Nicoeddf wrote:
And don't give me taxpayer and or best product crap. It's military procurement.


Its likely beneficial for the tax payer to buy arms locally, probably to about twice the price of purchase abroad an import.

Best regards
Thomas


My point exactly, although I've never seen a number put to it, like your " about twice" statement. Thanks for that, interesting.
Enslave yourself to the divine disguised as salvation
that your bought with your sacrifice
Deception justified for your holy design
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keesje
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Dec 25, 2019 2:14 pm

I think the more rational plan is to join with their french friends and finance a joint low risk interim F4 aircraft asap. The two seat, air to ground modified Eurofighter interceptor doesn't look convincing to me at all. Double work heavily compromised result. Hugely over budget no doubt. Better spend that money on the new FCAS development.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/ ... thy-108181
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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seahawk
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Sat Dec 28, 2019 11:26 am

Nobody wants the Rafale in Germany, as it does neither protect jobs in Germany nor does deliver the capabilities needed. (compatible with US nukes and SEAD / Jamming)
 
mxaxai
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:39 pm

keesje wrote:
I think the more rational plan is to join with their french friends and finance a joint low risk interim F4 aircraft asap. The two seat, air to ground modified Eurofighter interceptor doesn't look convincing to me at all. Double work heavily compromised result. Hugely over budget no doubt.

The Eurofighter was conceived as a multirole fighter (like all new jets for the past few decades). Its A2A & A2G capabilities are almost identical to the Rafale. The most work comes from adapting the cockpit data display and the development of the payloads themselves.
AFAIK the only other western jet with good SEAD / ECR pods is the EA-18G and that's why it's part of this competition. The Rafale (or any other aircraft but EA-18 and Eurofighter) has no place here.
 
Ozair
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:45 pm

seahawk wrote:
Nobody wants the Rafale in Germany, as it does neither protect jobs in Germany nor does deliver the capabilities needed. (compatible with US nukes and SEAD / Jamming)

Of course but that doesn't stop Keesje posting this ridiculous suggestion every couple of months...
 
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keesje
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Sat Dec 28, 2019 6:17 pm

Interesting article on the various programs.

https://sldinfo.com/2019/12/are-eurofig ... ence-2019/

So much interest / lobby groups involved.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Ozair
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Sat Dec 28, 2019 8:51 pm

keesje wrote:
Interesting article on the various programs.

https://sldinfo.com/2019/12/are-eurofig ... ence-2019/

So much interest / lobby groups involved.

Keesje look up the thread 12 posts, I posted that article three weeks ago...
 
Ozair
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:35 pm

A very long article by DW on the pressing need and issues with the replacement of the German Tornado fleet. They have pushed out some staggering numbers on costs to keep the Tornado in service past 2025. There is also some interesting comments by aircrew and parliamentarians on the program, the need for a replacement aircraft, why the F-35 has been excluded and the need for nuclear sharing.

A long but worthwhile review of the issues to date.

In Germany, gridlock over nuclear-capable fighter jet

Germany's Air Force has a special mission: deliver American nukes in the case of a nuclear strike. But its Tornado fleet is rapidly nearing the end of its shelf life. So why has Germany yet to decide on a replacement?

In a given week in late November, the number of flightworthy Tornado fighter jets stationed at Büchel Air Base varied widely: Sometimes, twelve out of the 45 planes were operational; soon after, less than a handful.

"That's pretty tight," according to one pilot.

He spoke to DW on condition of anonymity. For the air base, tucked away amid the picturesque plateaus of the Eifel region in western Germany, has a special, secret mission: It is here that American nuclear bombs are stored in what is officially termed a "nuclear sharing agreement."

In the case of a nuclear strike, German Tornado fighter jets and their crews would deliver the American bombs.

American bombs on German soil

Their location is a state secret. The German government has never officially confirmed the existence of the nuclear bombs in Büchel. The precise number of bombs stored in the underground vaults in the air base is thus unclear; estimates range between 10 to 20.

On the record, the Germany government only admits to being part of the sharing agreement, which dates back to the Cold War and NATO's nuclear deterrence strategy aimed at keeping Soviet influence at bay.

In essence, it provides for member states of the military alliance without nuclear weapons to partake in planning and training for the use of nuclear weapons by NATO and, officials argue, for their views to be taken into account by nuclear-capable countries, including the US. Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands and Italy are all part of the sharing agreement.

Upkeep of Tornado fleet skyrocketing

But as Germany's Tornado fleet is swiftly nearing the end of its shelf life, the cost of maintaining a fleet for the nuclear mission is skyrocketing.

"The increase each year is brutally high," as one parliamentarian put it.

DW has obtained a copy of an official document from the Ministry of Defense, which puts the expenditure for the Tornado fleet, including maintenance, procurement and development, at €502 million ($562 million) in 2018. This year, the figure is estimated to reach €629 million.

The problem is that the planes date back to the early 1980s. Until a few years ago, the fleet, which once numbered roughly 350 planes, was progressively reduced, meaning that retired airplanes could be cannibalized for spare parts.

Now, parts for the remaining 85 airplanes have to be manufactured at great cost — or taken from jets that are undergoing maintenance and built into those about to be returned to the Air Force, leading to long delays in planes becoming airworthy again.

The situation is so dire that pilots are struggling to fulfill the quota of flight hours needed to maintain their license — and it is leading to a shortage of flightworthy planes needed for the nuclear sharing agreement and other missions.

Spare parts 'more and more difficult'

In early December, in an imposing purpose-built hangar at an Airbus' compound, civilian and military mechanics were busy doing maintenance on twenty disassembled Tornados — some of them were stripped of their varnish, a tangle of cables visible in their fuselage, their distinctive black nosecones propped beside them.

It is here, in the vast compound close to the sleepy Bavarian town of Manching, that the Air Forces' Tornado fleet undergoes its routine maintenance.

Planes rotate in every three years — and most stay for roughly 350 days, according to Katharina Semmler-Schuler, head of Tornado Maintenance, Repair and Overhaul at Airbus Defence and Space Germany.

Spare parts, she said, were indeed a problem — the process of rotating them from one plane to the next added an extra 20 days to the maintenance, she said. "And it's getting more and more difficult."

Competing interests and heel-dragging

But despite the problems, Germany seems in no hurry to replace its fleet: While most other European countries have retired Tornado jets or are in the process of doing so, the German government has yet to decide which plane to replace it with.

DW spoke to several government and opposition politicians and members of the German Air Force — and they all agreed that a decision was urgent. The Tornado's operational capability is only guaranteed until 2025. After that, the costs for extending the fleet for another five years could be as high as €13 billion. Once a deal has been reached, it could still take several years for the airplanes to be built and then finally reach the Air Force hangars.

The decision has pitted different strategic, political and industrial interests in Germany and abroad against each other, making it difficult to reach a consensus for a deal that could be as high as €10 billion.

Three options: F-35, F/A-18 or Eurofighter

Talk to politicians and Air Force officials, and they name three possible airplanes: The F-35, F/A-18 or Eurofighter Typhoon.

Many within the German Air Force prefer the American F-35 fighter jet produced by Lockheed Martin, the most modern airplane available on the market.

American planes would come with established logistics chains and programs to quickly train pilots, compared to training in Germany which can drag on for years.

The other European nuclear-sharing countries — Belgium, the Netherlands and Italy — have all opted for the F-35.

French pressure against American F-35 jets

But here this option seems to have been quietly dropped, in part due to French pressure: For Germany and France are in the early stages of developing a joint fighter plane — the Future Combat Air System (FCAS), which combines manned fighter jets with swarms of cloud-connected drones.

"We let the French blackmail us," one parliamentarian, who favors the F-35, told DW.

The French threatened to go FCAS alone, should Germany buy the modern American F-35 jets, which could make the government here less inclined to pour billions into the development of a possibly only slightly more state-of-the-art European jet that could take years, possibly decades, until it reaches the market.

And, there is another reason some politicians are wary of the F-35: It is, they concede, basically a black box. "You don't know which information or data may be transmitted to America," one parliamentarian told DW.

In theory, Germany could add to its 138-strong fleet of Eurofighter jets, built by a European consortium owned by Germany, Spain, Italy and the United Kingdom. In Germany, the plane's final assembly is also done in Manching, where the Tornados undergo their maintenance, and it is an important regional employer.

During a recent visit to Manching, Wolfgang Gammel, Vice President of Airbus Defence and Space, did his best to promote his company's fighter jet to DW. "As long as there is a European option, Germany should buy European," he stressed.

Airbus knows that many within the Air Force are unhappy with the quality of planes that were delivered in the past — but Gammel pointed to overly bureaucratic and drawn-out military procurement policies in Germany.

Much is at stake for the company, as a deal would come with lucrative maintenance contracts which would secure jobs for decades.

And the Eurofighter is an important component of FCAS. Should Germany decide to buy an American plane, Gammel fears, funding for research and development into upgrading the Eurofighter could be put on hold — or the entire project could be put off.

In his office decked out with model fighter planes, he told DW that the Eurofighter was perfectly capable of replacing the Tornado fleet, including its nuclear capacity.

Nuclear certification

It is a tricky issue, as the US reportedly told the German government that it would take much longer to certify the Eurofighter for its nuclear role than any American aircraft — possibly up to ten years. That would push it close to the Tornados' end date.

Airbus maintains that Germany shouldn't have given the Americans an option, but simply told them to certify the Eurofighter, rather than let them favor the American-produced plane.

There is one capability, however, that Gammel admits that his plane does not yet have: suppression of air defense (SEAD). The term refers to the ability to suppress or destroy enemy air defense systems, such as missiles or radar.

While Airbus recently announced that it had begun research into SEAD capabilities, it is still in its early stages and could take several years to develop.

The F-35 and the F/A-18 in its Growler version both have SEAD capabilities.

Compromise solution?

A compromise seems to have emerged to split the deal among Eurofighter and the American F/A-18 Growler fighter jets, built by Boeing, opting for roughly 40 of each.

To keep Airbus happy, the maintenance of the American planes could be done in Manching.

But such a deal doesn't resonate well with Gammler. He told DW that the compromise would endanger engineering and development skills that would only come with a decision to buy Eurofighters, while doing the maintenance of the F/A-18 would secure less than 100 blue-collar jobs.

Much depends on Chancellor Angela Merkel's coalition partner, the Social Democrats (SPD). Off-the-record, several parliamentarians from Merkel's CDU and her sister party CSU, accused the SPD of dragging its feet in an effort to delay an unpopular decision that might anger its traditionally anti-nuclear party base.

That was not the case, SPD member of Parliament and party spokesman for defense Fritz Felgentreu, told DW. Rather, he pointed to the Ministry of Defense, which had yet to submit the official result of its inquiry into the various fighter jets to parliament.

An explosive topic

Like many of his party's foreign policy and security politicians, Felgentreu prefers to uphold the nuclear sharing agreement. In theory, Germany could pull out, as Greece and the United Kingdom have done, in the latter case following popular protests against the nukes. But "it wouldn't be prudent for Germany (to do so)," Felgentreu told DW. "If we do no one will consult us on how to develop NATO's nuclear strategy."

In early 2020, the two left-leaning leaders of the Social Democrats — Norbert Walter-Borjans and Saskia Esken — called for a withdrawal of all nuclear weapons in Europe and Russia, adding that the presence of American nukes in Germany was "problematic."

For now, it is unclear who might gain the upper hand within the party — and, Felgentreu admitted, the SPD's parliamentary group had yet to discuss the issue in any great detail. It is a politically sensitive topic: Should the SPD pivot away from the nuclear sharing agreement, it could potentially upend Merkel's increasingly fractious coalition. And so, some fear, while the defense ministry has promised a decision by early 2020, it may yet again be put off, despite the spiraling costs.

Meanwhile, frustration is mounting among the German Air Force. "We just want a plane that does its job," one Tornado pilot told DW wryly. "Time is running out."

Each evening at 1830 UTC, DW's editors send out a selection of the day's hard news and quality feature journalism. You can sign up to receive it directly here.

https://amp.dw.com/en/in-germany-gridlo ... a-51897327
 
texl1649
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:33 pm

It is funny to read that the French are blackmailing the Germans on this. Tough to pity the latter, of course...
 
Noray
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:48 am

texl1649 wrote:
It is funny to read that the French are blackmailing the Germans on this. Tough to pity the latter, of course...

The US retarding the nuclear certification of the Eurofighter isn't much better.
 
Ozair
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:26 am

Noray wrote:
texl1649 wrote:
It is funny to read that the French are blackmailing the Germans on this. Tough to pity the latter, of course...

The US retarding the nuclear certification of the Eurofighter isn't much better.

How has the US retarded the nuclear certification of the Eurofighter?

Boeing has admitted it will take them until 2025 to achieve certification and that is from a company that has built, managed and continues to maintain multiple US nuclear weapons and delivery vehicles. They quite likely have a 1000+ staff who are cleared and capable of working on this capability. In contrast how many platforms does Airbus have experience integrating nuclear weapons on? How many staff members are certified to know about and work with US nuclear weapons? How long will Airbus take to hand over crucial documents and systems knowledge to the US to allow them to certify the Eurofighter, even before the physical modifications occur?

Based on the above it seems very reasonable that the SH could be certified by 2025 while the Eurofighter would likely take until 2027-28.



On a side note, it is no wonder the Tornado fleet is struggling, it is surprising there are enough pilots certified to fly the aircraft. I came across the below article which shows how far out of date the simulator is to the real jet. The article also discuss the lack of simulators available and the difficulties in getting them located where they would provide most value.

CAE Keeps German Tornados Flying




This means that pilots will have to be trained to operate the ageing platform for at least another decade; so maintaining a capable pilot-training pipeline is an increasingly important task. But investment in Tornado training has not kept pace with the many changes made to the platform – so, under a series of different contracts, Canada’s CAE (Chalet 62) is working to provide a comprehensive upgrade of a training system that badly needs one.

“We have to reach aircraft concurrency, which we don’t have, because the customer – my old employer – neglected to invest in the simulator for many, many years,” says Michael Sauer, CAE’s customer-service representative for German air force Tornado simulators. “A big challenge for us to take ’70s technology and develop it and update it so that we meet the training needs of the 21st century. There’s a lot of stuff to be done, and we have about two-and-a-half years to catch up.”

As Sauer, a former pilot with Fighter-Bomber Wing 31, runs through the list of simulator upgrades required, the size of the task facing CAE’s team – based at Stolberg, near Aachen – becomes apparent.
“We introduced laser-guided weapons in 2000, and we still haven’t got that on the simulator,” he says. “That’s a project we’ve been tasked to do. We’re integrating the laser-designator pods, precision-guided munitions; we’re introducing night-vision capability into the simulator with a new display system. We’ve introduced MIDS in the aircraft – we’re now introducing it into the simulator. And another challenge we have is to enable networked training with Tornado.”



https://m.aviationweek.com/cae-keeps-ge ... dos-flying


Kudos to German Tornado pilots for putting up with this situation.
 
vr773
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:11 pm

Ozair wrote:
How long will Airbus take to hand over crucial documents and systems knowledge to the US to allow them to certify the Eurofighter, even before the physical modifications occur?


The US has a very clear financial interest in a slow process to certify the Eurofighter. Airbus has a very clear financial interest in a fast process to certify the Eurofighter. It's very naive to argue that the slow process would be Airbus' fault.
 
vr773
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:25 pm

Ozair wrote:

In Germany, gridlock over nuclear-capable fighter jet



https://amp.dw.com/en/in-germany-gridlo ... a-51897327


Interesting read. Most interesting to me is the prediction that Germany's Minister of Defence ("AKK")---who is also head of the governing party CDU---is going to drag out signing of the contract until after the next parliamentary election in 2021 (i.e. the one that determines Merkel's successor). It's a smart move politically because the nuclear sharing agreement is very unpopular among voters from all sides; but also not really a dominant political discussion point among Germans at the moment.
However, this move also opens up the possibility for a potential Green Party-led government to exit nuclear sharing. Of course, AKKs intention here is that it doesn't come to that in the first place.
 
YIMBY
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:20 pm

vr773 wrote:
Ozair wrote:
How long will Airbus take to hand over crucial documents and systems knowledge to the US to allow them to certify the Eurofighter, even before the physical modifications occur?


The US has a very clear financial interest in a slow process to certify the Eurofighter. Airbus has a very clear financial interest in a fast process to certify the Eurofighter. It's very naive to argue that the slow process would be Airbus' fault.


It did not take 10 years to certify Enola Gay. Any delay beyond one year is a purely political attempt to inhibit foreign competition, given that Eurofighter is an old and tested platform.
 
Ozair
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:48 pm

vr773 wrote:

The US has a very clear financial interest in a slow process to certify the Eurofighter.

The US doesn’t. The whole US Government is neither controlled nor works for Boeing. There is no reason that the US would delay certification, especially in the context of this competition. Using some common sense, let us suggest that tomorrow Germany announces that they are ordering an additional 90 Eurofighters to replace the Tornado and will start the formal certification process with the US for nuclear weapon carriage. The competition is over and there is no incentive for the US to delay certification other than sour grapes and frankly that is silly to even suggest. In fact it actually works against US interests to delay certification because it impacts NATO capability with the Eurofighter clearly more capable today of delivering a nuclear weapon than the Tornado.

What we do know is that the certification process for the Eurofighter won’t begin until the German Government formally requests it. All that has been requested to date is an expected timeframe. Additionally Boeing may have already started the nuclear certification process given the USN is no longer flying the classic Hornet on carriers, the sole US carrier based aircraft which had nuclear certification. The F-35C for the USN will be nuclear certified but that won’t happen until at least 2023, not every USN carrier will fly with an F-35C squadron before 2025 and the SH will likely have twice the deployed number of aircraft to the F-35C for the USN over its operational life.

vr773 wrote:
Airbus has a very clear financial interest in a fast process to certify the Eurofighter. It's very naive to argue that the slow process would be Airbus' fault.

I’m not claiming Airbus will be slow but Airbus has no experience with this process while Boeing has a lot of experience, qualitied personal and likely already has all the governance and compliance for this process. Airbus has to gain all of that which does not and will not happen overnight.

To make this clear, the process is not simple. Have a review of what the USAF has to go through, https://static.e-publishing.af.mil/prod ... 63-125.pdf It is long and detailed and for good reason.

YIMBY wrote:
It did not take 10 years to certify Enola Gay. Any delay beyond one year is a purely political attempt to inhibit foreign competition, given that Eurofighter is an old and tested platform.

Thanks for the laugh Yimby. If you’d like to compare nuclear certification between 1944 and 2020, only 76 years apart, then go right ahead.

Given Boeing has stated they will not be certified for nuclear delivery before 2025, so if they started today it is a five year process but they may have started already given their primary customer, then it must be a political process that also inhibits US companies…

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