Pihero
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India Confirms Order For IAF’s Rafale

Wed Jan 06, 2016 9:47 pm

The final documents have been submitted by India to the French givernment on Decembere 31st.
The contrat will be formally signed during Hollande's visit to India as guest of Honour to their natioonal festivities.
Amongst dozens of sources : Rafale Deal finalised

On another piece of news, the Tejas is planned to be demonstrated during the Bahrain Air show on the 21-23rd Jan :
Tejas abroad
Makes me smile after some of the ridiculous claims from Indian posters about Tejas being a real aircraft and not a circus show ( like the Rafale, of course). Maybe I could be visiting the Gulf on that airshow...
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Ozair
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RE: India Confirms Order For IAF’s Rafale

Thu Jan 07, 2016 12:06 am

Quoting Pihero (Thread starter):
The final documents have been submitted by India to the French givernment on Decembere 31st.
The contrat will be formally signed during Hollande's visit to India as guest of Honour to their natioonal festivities.
Amongst dozens of sources : Rafale Deal finalised

I will wait until I see Hollande and Modi both sign on a piece of paper and even then I will remain sceptical until the first Rafale arrives in India, this deal has seemed cursed from the beginning.

Quoting Pihero (Thread starter):
On another piece of news, the Tejas is planned to be demonstrated during the Bahrain Air show on the 21-23rd Jan :
Tejas abroad
Makes me smile after some of the ridiculous claims from Indian posters about Tejas being a real aircraft and not a circus show ( like the Rafale, of course). Maybe I could be visiting the Gulf on that airshow...

Not sure what you're trying to say here? The Tejas is a real aircraft, although not yet in service and has some issues to work through, and will almost certainly be procured in larger numbers for India than Rafale or T-50.
 
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RE: India Confirms Order For IAF’s Rafale

Thu Jan 07, 2016 1:42 am

Quoting Ozair (Reply 1):
Not sure what you're trying to say here?

Yes, that was completely unnecessary.

Kudos to India for developing an indigenous fighter which would nicely complement its existing lineup, Rafale included.

Good to hear that the Rafale deal is edging closer.
Hollande is visiting India later in the month, which might help precipitate things a bit faster.
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RE: India Confirms Order For IAF’s Rafale

Thu Jan 07, 2016 4:49 am

Well that was quick..
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ThePointblank
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RE: India Confirms Order For IAF’s Rafale

Thu Jan 07, 2016 4:56 am

I'll believe it when the first Indian Rafales arrive in India. There has been so many false starts with this saga that it's hard to believe anything these days.
 
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RE: India Confirms Order For IAF’s Rafale

Thu Jan 07, 2016 5:40 am

Quoting Ozair (Reply 1):
Quoting Pihero (Thread starter):
On another piece of news, the Tejas is planned to be demonstrated during the Bahrain Air show on the 21-23rd Jan :
Tejas abroad
Makes me smile after some of the ridiculous claims from Indian posters about Tejas being a real aircraft and not a circus show ( like the Rafale, of course). Maybe I could be visiting the Gulf on that airshow...

Not sure what you're trying to say here
Quoting francoflier (Reply 2):

Yes, that was completely unnecessary.

Maybe you have a way to forget some of the very insulting posts from some of our Indian friends.

I don't.

Examples :
"
Sexy air show displays are not part of the Tejas' staff requirement. In fact, IAF does not stress the MKIs at airshows either. The Russians might, but never the IAF. The only entities they authorize to perform such acts are the SKAT team and the Sarang Dhruv helicopter aerobatic team. ..
"

or this :

"Eurocanards do an excellent job at what they were made for - look nice, cost a lot so that many Europeans can be employed to make them and feed the local gravy train, and helps the Europeans piggyback behind the US for a few days in any new war."

...and a lot more to findon this thread "India Caps Rafale Acquisition At 36 Aircraft " here in Mil Av

Quoting Ozair (Reply 1):
this deal has seemed cursed from the beginning.

I've changed my mind : This deal will now go through. The one that has been cursed from the beginning is the (super)hornet. I understand it's tough for you to swallow.

Reading the Indian press, it very much looks like there are some bones stuck in some sore throats in India.
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HAWK21M
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RE: India Confirms Order For IAF’s Rafale

Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:12 am

What about the Price....Has that been sorted out.
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Ozair
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RE: India Confirms Order For IAF’s Rafale

Fri Jan 08, 2016 12:11 am

Quoting Pihero (Reply 5):
I've changed my mind : This deal will now go through. The one that has been cursed from the beginning is the (super)hornet. I understand it's tough for you to swallow.

I have no idea what you're talking about. What Super Hornet deal are you referring to?

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 6):
What about the Price....Has that been sorted out.

Unconfirmed reports have mentioned 5 billion which I assume is in US dollars. Given we don't know what that includes it is too early to say whether India ended up with a good deal or not.
 
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RE: India Confirms Order For IAF’s Rafale

Sun Jan 10, 2016 12:19 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 5):
"Eurocanards do an excellent job at what they were made for - look nice, cost a lot so that many Europeans can be employed to make them and feed the local gravy train, and helps the Europeans piggyback behind the US for a few days in any new war."

To be fair that is spot on if a little tongue in cheek.

Do the Rafales 'look nice'? Subjective but yes.
Does Dassault manufacturing the Rafale lead to more jobs for Frenchmen? Undoubtedly so.
Has the Rafale ever seen combat experience without Uncle Sam calling the shots in their war of choice? Nope.
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RE: India Confirms Order For IAF’s Rafale

Sun Jan 10, 2016 12:49 pm

Quoting Spiderguy252 (Reply 8):
Has the Rafale ever seen combat experience without Uncle Sam calling the shots in their war of choice? Nope.

Didn't the French start in Libya before the US got involved?
 
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RE: India Confirms Order For IAF’s Rafale

Sun Jan 10, 2016 1:16 pm

Quoting Spiderguy252 (Reply 8):

Has the Rafale ever seen combat experience without Uncle Sam calling the shots in their war of choice? Nope.

See KiwiRob's above...
Of course in India you've never heard of Mali... Noy in your planet, obviously...   
AS I've noticed - and a lot of others, too - there's never been much of a reasoned argument with your countrymen.
Y've just joined the crowd.

Bye bye... (and yes, I'll be in Bahrain so I will have a laugh watching the tejas and comparing its preetty demo with what I saw in Paris with the Pakistani Thunder(ous) JF-17).
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RE: India Confirms Order For IAF’s Rafale

Sun Jan 10, 2016 2:00 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 9):
Didn't the French start in Libya before the US got involved?

Yes, not by much but they carried out airstrikes against Gaddafi's forces bombarding Banghazi, before the rest of the coalition began.

Really, to paint the 'Eurocanards' as some inferior make work projects when mentioning the Tejas is rather funny.
Unless you have operational responsibility for the Indian Air Force that is.
 
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RE: India Confirms Order For IAF’s Rafale

Mon Jan 11, 2016 12:00 am

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 4):

I'll believe it when the first Indian Rafales arrive in India. There has been so many false starts with this saga that it's hard to believe anything these days.

I will believe it when they are working for a front-line, operational squadron in India with a full complement of people and qualified staff AND have been paid for.
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Ozair
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RE: India Confirms Order For IAF’s Rafale

Mon Jan 11, 2016 1:54 am

Quoting Pihero (Reply 10):
Of course in India you've never heard of Mali... Noy in your planet, obviously...

To be fair Mali couldn't have happened without US and other European support. France doesn't have the transport and tanker assets to support a sustained conflict so far from home. Not only that but the US was critical in supplying intelligence and airborne ISR.

Quoting GDB (Reply 11):
Really, to paint the 'Eurocanards' as some inferior make work projects when mentioning the Tejas is rather funny.

I don't think any of the Indian posters have claimed Rafale is inferior and anyone claiming Tejas today is the equal of the Rafale can be rightfully ignored. What they have continued to talk about is value for money. Should India invest money in what is a foreign program that (despite claims of offsets which are rarely fulfilled, especially in the sectors they should be by any manufacturer) provides little growth and incentive to the Indian economy.

Despite its delays Tejas does provide economic benefit to India through developing and improving local economic production and technology. The debate should be whether India has or will benefit militarily from Tejas. Have the delays to the LCA program been significant enough that India cannot conduct military operations the way it wants to?

What we do know is that India still relies on foreign suppliers for military hardware. There are a host of contracts over the last ten years that indicate as such including in the aviation sector and this shouldn't be a surprise; even with its massively increasing economy and technology sector China still imports military hardware as does almost all of the rest of the world.

In this case India is getting Rafale to make up the number of fighter aircraft that it cannot domestically provide for itself. In doing so, it chose the platform that was closest to its stated requirements. As frustrating as it is for India, it still needs foreign military hardware to meet its force projection or technological requirements.

Now the question should be whether they are getting a good deal...
 
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RE: India Confirms Order For IAF’s Rafale

Mon Jan 11, 2016 2:45 am

Quoting Pihero (Reply 10):
Pakistani Thunder(ous) JF-17).

They're not coming. I would've been there myself had they been flying.

Quoting GDB (Reply 11):
Really, to paint the 'Eurocanards' as some inferior make work projects when mentioning the Tejas is rather funny.
Unless you have operational responsibility for the Indian Air Force that is.

Indeed.

Cheers
A
 
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RE: India Confirms Order For IAF’s Rafale

Mon Jan 11, 2016 8:27 am

Quoting Ozair (Reply 7):

Unconfirmed reports have mentioned 5 billion which I assume is in US dollars. Given we don't know what that includes it is too early to say whether India ended up with a good deal or not.

And the deal for Make in India too.
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RE: India Confirms Order For IAF’s Rafale

Mon Jan 11, 2016 11:22 am

Quoting Ozair (Reply 13):
France doesn't have the transport and tanker assets to support a sustained conflict so far from home

1/- France *DID not* is more accurate : with the A400Ms, that situation has changed somewhat.
2/- In terms of air refuelling, only French assets were involved (a total of 5 KC-135 )

Quoting Ozair (Reply 13):
Not only that but the US was critical in supplying intelligence and airborne ISR.

I'd really love a reference of that.
As far as I know, most of the recce and intelligence was provided by the Mirage F1 CR ( two in Ndjamena) and Two Harfang UAVs. That the US provided some assistance seems to be accepted. That assistance was not the main source.

Quoting Ozair (Reply 13):

I don't think any of the Indian posters have claimed Rafale is inferior

Maybe my English is deficient, so please enlighten me on this already quoted argument of our indian friends :
urocanards do an excellent job at what they were made for - look nice, cost a lot so that many Europeans can be employed to make them and feed the local gravy train, and helps the Europeans piggyback behind the US for a few days in any new war."

I don' t think they really need you to defend them
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RE: India Confirms Order For IAF’s Rafale

Mon Jan 11, 2016 12:04 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 16):

1/- France *DID not* is more accurate : with the A400Ms, that situation has changed somewhat.
2/- In terms of air refuelling, only French assets were involved (a total of 5 KC-135 )

Not quite.

1. France recently ordered C-130s to overcome continued transport issues.
2. The following clearly indicates the amount of US support France received.

Quote:
Through last week, Air Force C17 Globemasters had flown 47 missions to Mali, ferrying 975 French troops and more than 1,200 tons of equipment and supplies to the fight against Al Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb rebels for control of northern Mali, according to Defense Department figures.

The Air Force had also flown 83 refueling missions delivering more than 544,000 gallons of gas to French Rafale and Mirage attack aircraft in close air support of French and Chad troops.
http://www.military.com/daily-news/2....html

That is a significant amount of support!

Quoting Pihero (Reply 16):
I'd really love a reference of that.

There is plenty at the following link, http://www.businessinsider.com.au/th...-the-aviationist--2013-1?r=US&IR=T
While it is supposition it is pretty evident the US has been sharing intelligence with the French regarding Mali.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 16):
urocanards do an excellent job at what they were made for - look nice, cost a lot so that many Europeans can be employed to make them and feed the local gravy train, and helps the Europeans piggyback behind the US for a few days in any new war."

While it may not be nice its hardly worth losing sleep over. I would suggest you instead use facts and accurate analysis to prove your point.

Meanwhile, not all may be as rosy as initially reported...

Quote:
Contrary to widespread belief, signing of the final contract to purchase 36 Rafale warplanes manufactured by French aviation major Dassault Aviation is likely to face further delay, even as both governments — India and France — are all set to sign an agreement stating India’s intention to buy the fighter jets during the visit of French President later this month.

The agreement will only lay down the objectives of both governments to continue negotiating the deal as a “symbolic gesture” to the visiting French President. The agreement, shaped as an Memorandum of Understanding between both countries, will only state that India will buy these jets from France while actual negotiations on pricing, offset obligations and changes in design will continue, sources told BusinessLine.
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/...7.ece

The cost and offsets remain an issue. As for cost, the number quoted in the article is 4.5 billion Euro, so approx US4.9 billion or around US$136 million per airframe. Not sure what that includes for spares or through life support.
 
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RE: India Confirms Order For IAF’s Rafale

Mon Jan 11, 2016 3:04 pm

Quoting Ozair (Reply 17):

1. France recently ordered C-130s to overcome continued transport issues.

No. There is no *transport* issue : It has to do with the fact that the A-400M cannot refuel the SpOPS helicopters due to a propwash that is a lot stronger than anticipated.
Don'tknow if it can be solved but the special forces need their helos to be refuelede and sertviced. They cannot wait.

Quoting Ozair (Reply 17):
The following clearly indicates the amount of US support France received.

The decision by the US to help refueling the AdA Fighters took a good two weeks to be made... then another few days to be implemented.
Had we waited for the USAF to cooperate befoire using our own assets, we'd have lost the whole country of Mali, and probably the neighbouring regions.
When they intervened, the USAF took over some half of the needed air-refueling tasks. Your numbers apply or the whole of the OPS for 2013 till July, not the original Serval operations per se.

Quoting Ozair (Reply 17):
I would suggest you instead use facts and accurate analysis to prove your point.

The goose and the gander, my dear.... Especially when your links don't work   

[Edited 2016-01-11 07:06:54]

[Edited 2016-01-11 07:18:59]
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Ozair
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RE: India Confirms Order For IAF’s Rafale

Mon Jan 11, 2016 9:16 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 18):
No. There is no *transport* issue : It has to do with the fact that the A-400M cannot refuel the SpOPS helicopters due to a propwash that is a lot stronger than anticipated.
Don'tknow if it can be solved but the special forces need their helos to be refuelede and sertviced. They cannot wait.

Only two of the orderd airframes are KC-130s, the other two are vanilla C-130Js. The other issue is the A-400 continues to have airflow issues with paradrop but that is for the A-400 thread.

Quote:
France will become the 17th customer for the Lockheed Martin (LM) Super Hercules with an order for two C-130Js and two KC-130Js tankers worth about $650 million.
http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-ne...1-13/france-latest-c-130j-customer

Quoting Pihero (Reply 18):
The decision by the US to help refueling the AdA Fighters took a good two weeks to be made... then another few days to be implemented.
Had we waited for the USAF to cooperate befoire using our own assets, we'd have lost the whole country of Mali, and probably the neighbouring regions.
When they intervened, the USAF took over some half of the needed air-refueling tasks. Your numbers apply or the whole of the OPS for 2013 till July, not the original Serval operations per se.

Does it matter. As my original statement clearly states,

Quoting Ozair (Reply 13):
France doesn't have the transport and tanker assets to support a sustained conflict so far from home.

A lot of air forces can conduct a short duration conflict. What most of NATO rely on is US support for sustained operations.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 18):
The goose and the gander, my dear.... Especially when your links don't work

Goose and gander? I provided links, if they don't work then tell me. Here are the corrected links but all it required from you was to remove some of the fluff that airliners.net put on the end of the link due to formatting...

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2...up-support-for-french-in-mali.html
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/...delayed-further/article8089297.ece

Meanwhile, you remain silent on the final link I provided that shows the skepticism shown by most posters in this thread is valid.

[Edited 2016-01-11 13:19:16]
 
Pihero
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RE: India Confirms Order For IAF’s Rafale

Mon Jan 11, 2016 10:28 pm

Quoting Ozair (Reply 19):
you remain silent on the final link I provided that shows the skepticism shown by most posters in this thread is valid.

No, I was just waiting for the date of your article... because as usual in that country there are as many appreciations of a market as there are newspapers.
Like this :India confirms order for Rafale
or this :
India confirms order
or this one : India confirms...
I could give you ten other links, and probably a lot more.
What does all this mean ? apparently nobody in that country is responsible for anything and nobody can have initiative or make a decision when it's needed.

Quoting Ozair (Reply 19):

Only two of the orderd airframes are KC-130s, the other two are vanilla C-130Js.

It does not change the fact that the reason for that deal is the heloes' refuelling capability. What the special forces command want is a one type ship for their ops : a tanker / refueller and a cargo with a fire support capability. The C-130 is the only possible candidate for that role. They have been against the A-400M since the beginning and were overjoyed at the failure of the rotor wing refuelling trials.

Quoting Ozair (Reply 19):
What most of NATO rely on is US support for sustained operations.

Rubbish. We have fought in Africa for the past 45 years with basically no help from anyone, especially the US of A.
Where were they when there was a full war waged against Khaddafi between Chad and Lybia ?
Where were they when paratroopers jumped on Kolwezi (btw to save the skins of mostly Belgian and US citizens) ?

The Serval operation was planned without implying anybody else's help. That Britain, Canada...the US... joined the airlift was appreciated and welcome. It would have been done with or without them... We would also have welcome any troops on the ground or some air support... Did it come ?
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Ozair
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RE: India Confirms Order For IAF’s Rafale

Mon Jan 11, 2016 11:25 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 20):
What does all this mean ? apparently nobody in that country is responsible for anything and nobody can have initiative or make a decision when it's needed.

You would know what it means if you read the article. The issues remain cost and offsets. The indians don't want to pay what the French are asking and want more local investment, simple as that. Given they are the ones looking to purchase they are able to pursue a bargin. No one says the French have to agree...

Quoting Pihero (Reply 20):
It does not change the fact that the reason for that deal is the heloes' refuelling capability. What the special forces command want is a one type ship for their ops : a tanker / refueller and a cargo with a fire support capability. The C-130 is the only possible candidate for that role.

It is more than helicopters.

Quote:
The French Army is eager to receive the C-130, as troops are deployed at great distance in Sahel sub-Saharan Africa, and the transport planes would fly a full tactical mission, dropping troops and cargo by parachute, the French source said.

Two of the C-130s would be capable of inflight refueling for helicopters, which fly combat search and rescue and support special operations forces.
http://www.defensenews.com/story/def...dered-purchase-uk-c-130s/77092356/

Quoting Pihero (Reply 20):
Rubbish. We have fought in Africa for the past 45 years with basically no help from anyone, especially the US of A.
Where were they when there was a full war waged against Khaddafi between Chad and Lybia ?
Where were they when paratroopers jumped on Kolwezi (btw to save the skins of mostly Belgian and US citizens) ?

A bit of revisionist history from yourself...

The USAF provided assistance moving troops from Corsica to Africa in C-5s, C-130s in country to airdrop the troops and then continued logistical assistance moving vehicles and supplies from Corsica to Africa.

Quote:
May 19 – 2e REP landed in Kinshasa (the capital of Zaire) at 02h30 (2:30 AM)

11h00 / 11:00 AM – a part of the Staff + 1st + 2nd + 3rd Company boarded the five C-190 Hercules planes of the U.S. Air Force + one French Transall C-160 plane

in Corsica, at the Solenzara airport, during the night of May 19 (and during the day of May 20), a Lockheed C-5 Galaxy of USAF was boarded by 2e REP’s vehicles (AML 60/90, Range Rover/Land Rover etc.), to be directly brought to Lubumbashi on May 20 (the aircraft then continued the flights in, to and out of Libreville, Gabon to support the 2nd REP with re-supply into Kinshasa and Lubumbashi, till May 24)
http://foreignlegion.info/battle-of-kolwezi/

http://foreignlegion.info/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/kolwezi/depart-2rep-kolwezi.jpg

Quote:
In Chad in 1983 the US deployed two AWACS and eight F-15 aircraft as well as ground logistical forces to assit Chad against Libyan and rebel forces

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=4Ryi__Q3-cAC&pg=PA35&lpg=PA35&dq=US+aircraft+support+French+troops+in+chad+1986&source=bl&ots=8-uoL3jCSN&sig=WbKPcPSFTOt9vKNQ5nII7YySrV4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjmhoLR76LKAhWFGJQKHQefBLcQ6AEILjAD#v=onepage&q=US%20aircraft%20support%20French%20troops%20in%20chad%201986&f=false

In Chad in 1984 the US provided $ 25 million in food and military aid.

Quote:
The United States further announced that 25 million US dollars in military and food aid would be provided.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Manta

In Zaire in 1991 US transport planes flew 300 French troops into the Central African Republic.
https://books.google.com.au/books?id=4Ryi__Q3-cAC&pg=PA35&lpg=PA35&dq=US+aircraft+support+French+troops+in+chad+1986&source=bl&ots=8-uoL3jCSN&sig=WbKPcPSFTOt9vKNQ5nII7YySrV4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjmhoLR76LKAhWFGJQKHQefBLcQ6AEILjAD#v=onepage&q=US%20aircraft%20support%20French%20troops%20in%20chad%201986&f=false

Quoting Pihero (Reply 20):
The Serval operation was planned without implying anybody else's help. That Britain, Canada...the US... joined the airlift was appreciated and welcome. It would have been done with or without them...

It is evident that France would not have been able to provide anywhere near the assistance and military intervention had Allied nations not provided additional logistical and sustainment support. France simply does not have the support assets to sustain long term operations. That may change as the A-400s and KC-330s are brought into service.
 
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RE: India Confirms Order For IAF’s Rafale

Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:53 am

Quoting Ozair (Reply 21):
n Chad in 1983 the US deployed two AWACS and eight F-15 aircraft as well as ground logistical forces to assit Chad against Libyan and rebel forces

Just an example of your bias :
NYT5imes on US deplyment against Lybia 1983
excerpts :
"...He said they would follow ''normal peacetime rules of engagement'' while on the mission to assist Chad (and not the French). He described these rules as ''self-defense in the face of a hostile act or clear hostile intent.''
...When asked whether the planes would fly over Libya, Mr. Reap said, ''U.S. aircraft do not fly in the airspace of any country without having been cleared to do so by that country.''
..."
... and finally, I do not recall that the intelligence gathered by these assets( the two AWACS) had ever been shared with the French ( bases were some 3000 miles apart )

Quoting Ozair (Reply 21):

In Chad in 1984 the US provided $ 25 million in food and military aid.

There's never been a proof that the pledged money had ever been provided :
"
The United States further announced that 25 million US dollars in military and food aid would be provided.
"

Of course you are entitled to an opinion, but it seems that the US is very good with transport / airlift...
I wish it could have been a bit more...warlike.
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Ozair
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RE: India Confirms Order For IAF’s Rafale

Tue Jan 12, 2016 10:32 am

Quoting Pihero (Reply 22):
Just an example of your bias

If you call that bias I question your understanding of what bias means. You made the below claim.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 20):
Rubbish. We have fought in Africa for the past 45 years with basically no help from anyone, especially the US of A.

I provided you with evidence that the US had provided assistance to France and to nations in Africa during that period despite your outlandish claim. In fact it seems pretty clear actions like Kolwezi could not have occurred without US support.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 22):
and finally, I do not recall that the intelligence gathered by these assets( the two AWACS) had ever been shared with the French ( bases were some 3000 miles apart )
Quoting Pihero (Reply 22):
There's never been a proof that the pledged money had ever been provided :

Ha, does it matter? Even if I found such evidence I question whether you would believe it and I doubt it matters. By the way, Reagan didn't have a problem giving money and military aid to people, including Africa.

Quote:
In 1986, I remember hearing Ronald Reagan's speech – carried on the BBC Africa service – by short wave radio: "We are going to send stinger missiles to the UNITA Freedom Fighters in Angola!" Those who were listening to the SW radio with me looked at one another in stunned amazement. After a long silence as we wondered if our ears had actually heard what we thought we heard, one of us said: "That would be nice!" We scarcely dared believe that it would happen. But it did. Not long afterwards the stinger missiles began to arrive in UNITA controlled Free Angola. Soviet aircraft were shot down. The bombing and strafing of villagers, schools and churches came to an end. Without any doubt, Ronald Reagan's policies saved many tens of thousands of lives in Angola.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_policy_of_the_Ronald_Reagan_administration

Quoting Pihero (Reply 22):
Of course you are entitled to an opinion, but it seems that the US is very good with transport / airlift...
I wish it could have been a bit more...warlike.

Well at least you now seem to have admitted that the US has provided support...Some people are never satisfied though and frankly I'm not sure why the US bothers. They're dammed if they do and dammed if they don't.

I don't care either way as I'm not a citizen of France, the USA or India and thankfully live in a country that is so far away from the rest of the world our only real concern is global economic collapse and even then we'd still have food on the table.
 
Pihero
Topic Author
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RE: India Confirms Order For IAF’s Rafale

Tue Jan 12, 2016 12:39 pm

Quoting Ozair (Reply 23):
Reagan didn't have a problem giving money and military aid to people, including Africa.

Yeah ! a very good example of intervention : UNITA was a movement backed by :
-South Africa, the apartheid country
-Israel
-the US
-and most western countries... not forgetting the most reactionary African regimes.

Get on the newspapers of the era : that group was responsible for the massacre of thousands of people, hastily buried in mass graves... and that's the movement Reagan chyose to back.
Bloody shame and something the US can't be really proud of.

With that, it is obvious we can't talk.
I know where you stand, as much as you know where I am.
Contrail designer
 
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Francoflier
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RE: India Confirms Order For IAF’s Rafale

Tue Jan 12, 2016 1:25 pm

Boy, this thread wasn't even on the rails when it left the station...
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
angad84
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RE: India Confirms Order For IAF’s Rafale

Tue Jan 12, 2016 5:28 pm

Quoting francoflier (Reply 25):
Boy, this thread wasn't even on the rails when it left the station...

I tell you h'wat.

I for one will eat my hat if the deal is signed before Hollande visits. Full disclosure, I've asked around before committing to the headgear-munching... 

Cheers
Angad
 
Ozair
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RE: India Confirms Order For IAF’s Rafale

Tue Jan 12, 2016 11:43 pm

Quoting angad84 (Reply 26):

I for one will eat my hat if the deal is signed before Hollande visits. Full disclosure, I've asked around before committing to the headgear-munching...

The article I provided previously was pretty clear so I think you are safe.

Quoting Ozair (Reply 19):
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/...delayed-further/article8089297.ece

Will be interesting to see who blinks first, Dassault or the Indian MoD.
 
angad84
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RE: India Confirms Order For IAF’s Rafale

Wed Jan 13, 2016 11:13 am

Quoting Ozair (Reply 27):
The article I provided previously was pretty clear so I think you are safe.

To be fair there about a dozen other articles screaming that it'll be signed imminently. I'm just confirming that they're wrong.

Quoting Ozair (Reply 27):
Will be interesting to see who blinks first, Dassault or the Indian MoD.

The MoD. Always a safe bet with those spineless dullards.

More on pricing - http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...-fighters/articleshow/50553762.cms

I can't understand how they've agreed on offsets without committing to a price for the whole deal, but that's the line I'm getting from everyone in Delhi, so...

There is also no clarity on

- the weapons package. MICA goes without saying, but how many and what's the RF/IR split? What A2G weapons, if any? Has the IAF given up on a SEAD/ARM capability with its new aircraft? What of the BVRAAM? Any commitments for Astra integration? Will it be limited to Meteor, and therefore to the French test/integration/EIS schedule (the slowest/last of the Eurocanards)?

- Target/recce pod - the Damocles is crap compared to what the IAF already uses (Litening) and there's the question of the IAF's existing inventory of various recce pods. Are they going to be able to work with Rafale? If not then what? Does the IAF induct new aircraft with capability gaps vis a vis existing types? Do they integrate the third party stuff, and if so, who is responsible and how much does it cost?

- HMDS - the Rafale still doesn't have an HMDS, AFAIK. Does the IAF accept a $10bn deal where the aircraft don't have a helmet that can measure up to the stuff being used in older types like the Mirage?


It's been 9 months since Modi made his announcement in Paris. Inordinate feet-dragging aside, we still have ZERO clarity on these things. EVERYONE is either dodging these questions or simply doesn't know.

Cheers
A
 
Ozair
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RE: India Confirms Order For IAF’s Rafale

Wed Jan 13, 2016 10:37 pm

Quoting angad84 (Reply 28):
To be fair there about a dozen other articles screaming that it'll be signed imminently.

The impression I got from reading many of them is they are all one original news report reposted.

Quoting angad84 (Reply 28):
MICA goes without saying, but how many and what's the RF/IR split?
Quoting angad84 (Reply 28):
What of the BVRAAM? Any commitments for Astra integration? Will it be limited to Meteor, and therefore to the French test/integration/EIS schedule (the slowest/last of the Eurocanards)?

MICA and Meteor are the obvious ones but we know Meteor is expensive and Rafale has the worst Meteor integration of the three Eurocanards, using only a one way data-link compared to two way for the other two.

I can see Astra being paid for by the Indians and coming 3-5 years post airframe delivery. There will be too much other stuff to stand up that it won’t be a priority unless the Indians demand it. With two other BVR missiles available, MICA RF and Meteor, I can’t see that happening.

I would actually like to see Python 5 integrated and used in favour of MICA IR. Shorter range but I think a better overall IR missile for WVR work and will be used on Tejas as well.

Quoting angad84 (Reply 28):
Target/recce pod - the Damocles is crap compared to what the IAF already uses (Litening) and there's the question of the IAF's existing inventory of various recce pods. Are they going to be able to work with Rafale? If not then what? Does the IAF induct new aircraft with capability gaps vis a vis existing types? Do they integrate the third party stuff, and if so, who is responsible and how much does it cost?

The French are steadily replacing the Damocles with the TAILOS which, I don't have the
Litening specifics in front of me, is at least comparable with Litening and probably better.

Quote:
The company is currently assembling the first prototype, due to be complete by late 2015 with flight trials due to commence in 2016. According to France's Military Programming Law 2014-19, 45 pods will be procured with the initial 16 units due in 2018 and 2019.

Weighing around 200-300 kg and some 2.5 m in length, the TALIOS pod's sensor suite will include: a high-definition (HD) midwave infrared (3-5 microns) thermal imager sourced from Sofradir; an HD colour TV covering for daylight operations; a short-wave infrared (1.4-3 microns) camera to enhance twilight performance; and a laser suite comprising rangefinder, designator, marker, and spot-tracker.
http://www.janes.com/article/52090/t...-contract-for-talios-targeting-pod

Given Qatar is planning to integrate Sniper onto the Rafale, perhaps that is another option that would be available sooner than TALIOS? Would introduce another pod though which is not ideal.

Quoting angad84 (Reply 28):
- HMDS - the Rafale still doesn't have an HMDS, AFAIK. Does the IAF accept a $10bn deal where the aircraft don't have a helmet that can measure up to the stuff being used in older types like the Mirage?

I'm pretty sure there is a HMS solution for Rafale but the French due to cost cutting have not purchased it. Thales have the TopOwl-F which could easily be used. It is a surprise the French don't use one and a lack of HMS was one of the issues the UAE had with Rafale.

The French are also no longer purchasing the dedicated IRST and instead using the MICA IR seeker head. I assume an Indian Rafale will come with the IRST installed?

Quoting angad84 (Reply 28):
It's been 9 months since Modi made his announcement in Paris. Inordinate feet-dragging aside, we still have ZERO clarity on these things. EVERYONE is either dodging these questions or simply doesn't know.

It's hard to know whether it is these small config differences that are holding up the price negotiations or whether they are on top of them. Clearly India wants the F3R version (meteor capable) with all the bells and whistles.
 
ThePointblank
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RE: India Confirms Order For IAF’s Rafale

Wed Jan 13, 2016 11:17 pm

Quoting Ozair (Reply 29):

The French are steadily replacing the Damocles with the TAILOS which, I don't have the
Litening specifics in front of me, is at least comparable with Litening and probably better.

Damocles is a 320 x 240 array with an architecture that effectively gives 640 x 480 resolution, which is dramatically inferior than any other targeting pod available (if you also consider the fact that Damocles has no daylight capabilities, then it's even more inferior). The current LITENING pod is a 1,024 x 1,024 array, while the literature for the Sniper XR pod says its a 1k system.
 
angad84
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RE: India Confirms Order For IAF’s Rafale

Thu Jan 14, 2016 10:12 am

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 30):
Damocles is a 320 x 240 array with an architecture that effectively gives 640 x 480 resolution, which is dramatically inferior than any other targeting pod available (if you also consider the fact that Damocles has no daylight capabilities, then it's even more inferior). The current LITENING pod is a 1,024 x 1,024 array, while the literature for the Sniper XR pod says its a 1k system.

Yup. It's really a very disappointing piece of kit. Although I believe there is an upgrade/mod that includes daylight imagery? I will have to dig out my old Aero India brochures to confirm, but I recall seeing literature at some trade show with an IR image and a daylight image side by side.

Quoting Ozair (Reply 29):
The French are steadily replacing the Damocles with the TAILOS which, I don't have the
Litening specifics in front of me, is at least comparable with Litening and probably better.

I wasn't aware the TALIOS was already in production - isn't that still some years away?

Quoting Ozair (Reply 29):
I'm pretty sure there is a HMS solution for Rafale but the French due to cost cutting have not purchased it. Thales have the TopOwl-F which could easily be used. It is a surprise the French don't use one and a lack of HMS was one of the issues the UAE had with Rafale.

I've dug around for a source on that too and can find nothing to suggest that the Rafale is built 'for but not with' HMDS. Until I can dig that up, I will have to assume the work's not been done.

Quoting Ozair (Reply 29):
The French are also no longer purchasing the dedicated IRST and instead using the MICA IR seeker head. I assume an Indian Rafale will come with the IRST installed?

Didn't know that. Do you have a link for the French part? I don't know what the IAF/MoD has gone for though - again, another significant transparency issue.

Quoting Ozair (Reply 29):
Clearly India wants the F3R version (meteor capable) with all the bells and whistles.

That's at odds with the joint statement from last year, which said India will buy aircraft as assessed by the IAF during MMRCA trials, which if memory serves was the F2 version.


... I guess this is what happens when your trials and selection process is a sham. "Patented" my arse.

Cheers
Angad
 
angad84
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RE: India Confirms Order For IAF’s Rafale

Thu Jan 14, 2016 1:13 pm

... and in news that should surprise absolutely no one - http://twitter.com/ReutersIndia/status/687542212721270784

Quoting @ReutersIndia:
French defence minister says deal to sell Rafale jets to India not yet done

Cheers
Angad
 
jouy31
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RE: India Confirms Order For IAF’s Rafale

Thu Jan 14, 2016 3:18 pm



Quoting angad84 (Reply 31):
I wasn't aware the TALIOS was already in production - isn't that still some years away?

"Officially unveiled at the Farnborough Air Show in July 2014, TALIOS is scheduled to be integrated on the F3-R configuration of the Dassault Rafale multirole fighter and fully qualified in 2018, when it is due to enter series production."

June 8th, 2015


Source: http://www.janes.com/article/52090/t...-contract-for-talios-targeting-pod

[Edited 2016-01-14 07:19:38]
 
angad84
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RE: India Confirms Order For IAF’s Rafale

Thu Jan 14, 2016 4:54 pm

Quoting jouy31 (Reply 33):
"Officially unveiled at the Farnborough Air Show in July 2014, TALIOS is scheduled to be integrated on the F3-R configuration of the Dassault Rafale multirole fighter and fully qualified in 2018, when it is due to enter series production."

So that's the downside isn't it? A pod that's gonna be fully qualified and in production only in 2018 is roughly comparable with pods that have been around for a while now.

Cheers
A
 
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moo
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RE: India Confirms Order For IAF’s Rafale

Thu Jan 14, 2016 7:08 pm

Quoting angad84 (Reply 34):

So that's the downside isn't it? A pod that's gonna be fully qualified and in production only in 2018 is roughly comparable with pods that have been around for a while now.

Thales market it as matching the Litening 5, which has yet to enter production.
 
Ozair
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RE: India Confirms Order For IAF’s Rafale

Thu Jan 14, 2016 10:40 pm

Quoting angad84 (Reply 31):
I wasn't aware the TALIOS was already in production - isn't that still some years away?

As per the quote and link in my post, (same one Jouy31 provided in post 33) flight trials begin this year and delivery to begin in 2018. India probably won't get a Rafale until 2018 anyway and not enough for a proper IOC until 2019.

Quoting Ozair (Reply 29):
The company is currently assembling the first prototype, due to be complete by late 2015 with flight trials due to commence in 2016. According to France's Military Programming Law 2014-19, 45 pods will be procured with the initial 16 units due in 2018 and 2019.

.

Quoting angad84 (Reply 31):
Didn't know that. Do you have a link for the French part?

From link below

Quote:
Targeting pod
Some reports suggest that the new OSF-IT will not have an IR channel at all, meaning that Rafale would lose its onboard IRST and FLIR capabilities, relying on the Damocles targeting pod to provide any IR picture. There has been speculation that the loss of the IR is required to make space for the larger AESA radar boxes. Because the OSF-IT and the new radar will be validated together (to save duplication in the flight test effort), the new OSF will not be incorporated until the ‘Roadmap’ aircraft, though it could have been made available much earlier.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/radar-and-optronics-will-define-future-rafale-214754/

Has also been confirmed by knowledgeable sources on another forum

Quote:
OSF-IT only provides an improved TV channel.
The FLIR function now relies on the targeting pod, while the IRST function is performed by MICA
Quoting angad84 (Reply 31):
That's at odds with the joint statement from last year, which said India will buy aircraft as assessed by the IAF during MMRCA trials, which if memory serves was the F2 version.

Surely that is not accurate. F2 doesn't have the AESA radar and that was a requirement for the MMRCA. F2 is also in no way Meteor capable as Meteor requires F3R. Could Dassault even build an F2 now as I imagine the parts suppliers have moved on to F3?
 
BarfBag
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RE: India Confirms Order For IAF’s Rafale

Fri Jan 15, 2016 6:43 am

Quoting angad84 (Reply 32):

... and in news that should surprise absolutely no one - http://twitter.com/ReutersIndia/status/687542212721270784

Quoting @ReutersIndia:
French defence minister says deal to sell Rafale jets to India not yet done

  
Sitanshu Kar's feed has nothing about Rafale, and plenty about everything else, from the LCAs at Bahrain Airshow, to the Indo-Japanese maritime exercises, and various other pre R-day tidbits.

I don't see much credence to the argument that the deal *has* to be signed because Hollande is the Republic Day chief guest. Modi was feted in Paris months ago, and for all the talk then, nothing's happened.
 
angad84
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RE: India Confirms Order For IAF’s Rafale

Fri Jan 15, 2016 12:05 pm

Quoting Ozair (Reply 36):
As per the quote and link in my post, (same one Jouy31 provided in post 33) flight trials begin this year and delivery to begin in 2018. India probably won't get a Rafale until 2018 anyway and not enough for a proper IOC until 2019.

I keep forgetting that no matter what happens, we're not going to get the first aircraft overnight... Still, that leaves the issue of inventory complication at the very least — I'm sure the IAF would like to stick with their Litening G4 and existing recce stuff.

Quoting Ozair (Reply 36):
Has also been confirmed by knowledgeable sources on another forum

Fantastic. It get better and better.

Quoting Ozair (Reply 36):
Surely that is not accurate. F2 doesn't have the AESA radar and that was a requirement for the MMRCA. F2 is also in no way Meteor capable as Meteor requires F3R.


See what I mean about MMRCA trials and selection being a sham?  
Quoting Ozair (Reply 36):
Could Dassault even build an F2 now as I imagine the parts suppliers have moved on to F3?


Almost certainly not, which is why these half-assed pronouncements just serve to highlight how pants-on-head STUPID these people are. However, the statement is 100% correct and verified:

From the official Indian Ministry of External Affairs website - http://mea.gov.in/bilateral-document..._Minister_to_France_April_911_2015

Quoting GoI-MEA:
... The two leaders agreed to conclude an Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) for supply of the aircraft on terms that would be better than conveyed by Dassault Aviation as part of a separate process underway, the delivery would be in time-frame that would be compatible with the operational requirement of IAF; and that the aircraft and associated systems and weapons would be delivered on the same configuration as had been tested and approved by IAF, and with a longer maintenance responsibility by France.

(emphasis mine)
#1 is a fantastic example of weasel wording. the delivery time frame could be six days, six years or six decades, nobody knows and nobody will know. Fine stewards of taxpayer funds, this lot. In any event, they said under two years, and were forced to backpedal when Eric Trappier made clear that there was no planet on which that would be possible.

#2 is what we're talking about - the aircraft spec. As tested, the Rafale did not have AESA, HMDS or Meteor. Of course, this statement is probably flat out WRONG, but they said it. In any event, it's a perfect out for the French to squeeze them on costs ("the old numbers don't count, this is a different aircraft" etc).

Quoting BarfBag:

Like others have said in this thread and many more - I'll believe it when I see them in Indian colours on Indian soil.

PS: Sitanshu has moved on from the MoD, the new MoD Spokesperson is Nitin Wakankar.

Cheers
A

[Edited 2016-01-15 04:09:06]
 
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Spiderguy252
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RE: India Confirms Order For IAF’s Rafale

Fri Jan 15, 2016 3:36 pm

May I ask if we will be at a serious disadvantage if our fleet is - for whatever reason - not made to consume these 36 Rafales? Is it indispensable in that sense?
Vahroone
 
Ozair
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RE: India Confirms Order For IAF’s Rafale

Fri Jan 15, 2016 8:24 pm

Quoting Spiderguy252 (Reply 39):
May I ask if we will be at a serious disadvantage if our fleet is - for whatever reason - not made to consume these 36 Rafales? Is it indispensable in that sense?

India has determined a minimum number of combat aircraft necessary to fulfill their needs but over the next 10 years they will have to retire somewhere close to 300 aircraft. This deal is to acquire aircraft to supplement domestic production of Tejas and Su-30MKI and bridge the capability gap. Even with 36 Rafales or twice that number, India will still be short of their fleet numbers.
 
Ozair
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RE: India Confirms Order For IAF’s Rafale

Fri Jan 15, 2016 8:31 pm

Quoting angad84 (Reply 38):
I'm sure the IAF would like to stick with their Litening G4 and existing recce stuff.

Agree but I suppose that is the common issue with buying French, you typically have to accept the weapons and sensors the French are using.

Quoting angad84 (Reply 38):
2 is what we're talking about - the aircraft spec.

Madness...
 
Ozair
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RE: India Confirms Order For IAF’s Rafale

Sun Jan 17, 2016 9:03 pm

Price continues to be a sticking point. This article has a contract all up price of $12 billion!

Quote:
Nine months after Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced in Paris India’s plans to buy the fighter aircraft directly from the French government, officials of the finance wing of the Ministry of Defence are worried about the high costs of the warplanes, which has turned out to be way above their calculations. According to officials, the 36 jets will cost $12 billion and will include aircraft in fly-away condition, weapon systems and a maintenance support package.
http://www.newindianexpress.com/nati...-Off/2016/01/17/article3230449.ece

$12 billion looks comparative to the figure paid by Qatar, US$7.1 billion, for 24 Rafales plus weapons, support and training. The article also indicates price may be the final sticking point with offsets now agreed at 30% of contract value.
 
angad84
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RE: India Confirms Order For IAF’s Rafale

Sun Jan 17, 2016 9:21 pm

Quoting Ozair (Reply 42):
$12 billion looks comparative to the figure paid by Qatar, US$7.1 billion, for 24 Rafales plus weapons, support and training. The article also indicates price may be the final sticking point with offsets now agreed at 30% of contract value.

I still don't get how they can agree to 30% offsets without agreeing on a price, and no one I speak to is willing to clarify this beyond "there is an agreement on the offsets." (or variations thereof)

This whole thing is so nuts.

A
 
Ozair
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RE: India Confirms Order For IAF’s Rafale

Sun Jan 17, 2016 10:38 pm

Quoting angad84 (Reply 43):
I still don't get how they can agree to 30% offsets without agreeing on a price, and no one I speak to is willing to clarify this beyond "there is an agreement on the offsets." (or variations thereof)

This whole thing is so nuts.

The offset is probably one of the easiest conditions to agree to given India has a clear policy on minimum offset.

Quote:
The Offset Policy has been articulated in the DPP 2008. The Offset Clause would be applicable for all procurement proposals where indicative cost is above Rs. 300 crores and schemes are categorized as ‘Buy Global’ involving outright purchase from foreign/Indian vendors and ‘Buy and Make with Transfer of Technology’ i.e. purchase from foreign vendor followed by licensed production. There is an urgent need for us to act together so as to extract the maximum mileage from this new clause introduced in the procurement procedure for the modernization of the armed forces in general and Army in particular.

The provisions of offset policy will apply to all Capital Acquisition categorized as ‘Buy (Global)’ or ‘Buy and Make’ where indicative cost is Rs 300 crores or more. Initially, a uniform offset of 30 per cent of indicative cost in ‘Buy Category’ or 30 per cent of foreign exchange component in ‘Buy and make category’ will be minimum required value of offset.
http://www.idsa.in/jds/3_1_2009_Impl...etPolicyinDefenceContracts_SSunder

In that light, did the Indians agree to a lesser offset, so the mandated 30% over the 50% advocated for MMRCA, expecting a steeper discount on the flyaway price of the jet itself?
 
angad84
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RE: India Confirms Order For IAF’s Rafale

Mon Jan 18, 2016 4:28 am

Quoting Ozair (Reply 44):
The offset is probably one of the easiest conditions to agree to given India has a clear policy on minimum offset.

Agreeing to abide by an offset clause, and actually having an agreement on offsets are separate things. While India's offset requirements are well known, the scope of work required to meet the 30% obligation on a $10bn contract and a $12bn contract will be very different.

MMRCA was separate from DPP, so the 30 vs 50 point is moot. The DPP has recently been significantly revised, and in fact has taken lessons from the MMRCA programme.

Cheers
A
 
Ozair
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RE: India Confirms Order For IAF’s Rafale

Tue Jan 19, 2016 10:39 pm

Quoting angad84 (Reply 45):
MMRCA was separate from DPP, so the 30 vs 50 point is moot.

The more I read the more convinced I am that no one, including the French and Indian negotiating teams, have any idea what is going on or what has been agreed to...

Quote:
In November 2015, before he left for COP-21 climate conference in Paris, Modi spoke with Hollande and convinced the French President to agree to a 50-per cent offset clause, a defence ministry official told The Indian Express. While 30 per cent offset clause is mandatory in defence contracts of the quantum of the Rafale deal, an exception of 50 per cent was made in line with the earlier Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) deal, which was cancelled.
http://indianexpress.com/article/ind...line-to-hollande-broke-rafale-ice/

So perhaps a 50% offset clause instead of the 30% reported previously. The most worrying from the article though is the following,

Quote:
Sources said the Indian side has pressed for a delivery schedule beginning three years from the date of signing of the IGA. Six aircraft are slated to be delivered each year.

So deliveries would start three years after contract signature, so 2019 if by some miracle it is signed this month or even this year, but only 6 aircraft delivered each year. Hence India won't have all 36 Rafale until the end of 2024... Does India want that schedule due to inducting a new type, Dassault being unable to provide more aircraft sooner or Dassault choosing to only provide that number of aircraft to extend Rafale production into the 2020s?

Speculation continues that something will be signed this month.

Quote:
Top officials of Dassault Aviation and DCNS will accompany French President Francois Hollande for his visit to India this week, raising hopes for progress on the Rafale fighter aircraft deal with France. The company officials will be part of the delegation that will be arriving with Hollande on January 24. There is speculation that the two countries may announce an Inter Governmental Agreement (IGA) regarding the Rafale deal.
http://indianexpress.com/article/ind...als-to-accompany-french-president/
 
angad84
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RE: India Confirms Order For IAF’s Rafale

Wed Jan 20, 2016 9:45 am

Quoting Ozair (Reply 46):
So perhaps a 50% offset clause instead of the 30% reported previously.

Nobody's agreeing on the bloody offset number now. I trust Manu Pubby though, and he says 50%, so I'm going with that versus what I said earlier (i.e. 30% in line with DPP)

Quoting Ozair (Reply 46):
So deliveries would start three years after contract signature, so 2019 if by some miracle it is signed this month or even this year, but only 6 aircraft delivered each year. Hence India won't have all 36 Rafale until the end of 2024... Does India want that schedule due to inducting a new type, Dassault being unable to provide more aircraft sooner or Dassault choosing to only provide that number of aircraft to extend Rafale production into the 2020s?

India doesn't know what India wants. The IAF wants this aircraft so badly, they're bending over backwards to accept whatever Dassault throws at them. The MoD doesn't have the budget for them, but is hamstrung by the fact that the PM made a commitment to buy the godforsaken things last year. I never thought I'd say this, but it's the bureaucrats keeping this farce from getting any sillier.

Quoting Ozair (Reply 46):
Speculation continues that something will be signed this month.

*Something* certainly will be, but it won't be a contract.

Cheers
Angad
 
india1
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RE: India Confirms Order For IAF’s Rafale

Mon Jan 25, 2016 9:18 am

So The Times of India says an "accord" has been reached and an "MoU" has been signed by Hollande and Modi. If that's the case, what the heck was signed last year? How's this any different?
 
angad84
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RE: India Confirms Order For IAF’s Rafale

Mon Jan 25, 2016 9:47 am

Quoting india1 (Reply 48):
So The Times of India says an "accord" has been reached and an "MoU" has been signed by Hollande and Modi. If that's the case, what the heck was signed last year? How's this any different?

Lord knows...

Full story on the MoU - http://www.hindustantimes.com/india/.../story-ZsPUSprczZkNf2OlSMrKBN.html

And NDTV quotes Hollande and Modi as saying the holdup is financial and will be resolved soon - http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/pm-mo...joint-statement-highlights-1269762

Again, if it's going to be "resolved soon" then what the f**k have they been doing for the past nine months?

FWIW, I think this is an IGA, not an MoU - because what the hell would the point of an MoU be after last April's announcement?

Cheers (not really)
Angad

[Edited 2016-01-25 01:51:07]

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