Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
nomadd22
Topic Author
Posts: 1570
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:42 pm

End Of The Line For 4 Carriers

Tue Jan 19, 2016 7:40 pm

I drive by these guys every day on my way to Boca Chica. It's sad to see them getting ripped apart like this, but the stories had to end some day. Gives me a chance to hoist a Guinness to Forrestal, Constellation, Saratoga and Ranger.

Anon
 
silentbob
Posts: 1613
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:26 pm

RE: End Of The Line For 4 Carriers

Tue Jan 19, 2016 9:17 pm

Wow, where exactly is that?
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 10630
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

RE: End Of The Line For 4 Carriers

Tue Jan 19, 2016 9:57 pm

Quoting silentbob (Reply 1):
Wow, where exactly is that?

The ships are in Brownsville TX, at the ESCO Marine for scrapping.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
David L
Posts: 8551
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: End Of The Line For 4 Carriers

Wed Jan 20, 2016 12:02 pm

Hoist one to Saratoga for me. I got a good view of her when she was anchored in Hong Kong harbor in 1970 or 1971. A friend's father was with Ghurka Transport and, on his birthday, he commandeered a landing craft (technically a ramped powered lighter) and crew for a "beach assault and barbecue" on Lantau. A unanimous decision was taken to make a detour on the way and we got a close up, 360o view. Best birthday party ever!

The reason I remember the Saratoga over other carriers that visited was that three of her aircraft (A-7s, I think) made the news due to a "close encounter" with an airliner near HK. Maybe it was a slow news day.

[Edited 2016-01-20 04:08:20]
 
David L
Posts: 8551
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: End Of The Line For 4 Carriers

Wed Jan 20, 2016 12:50 pm

I posted the above from memory but now I can't find anything to support my assertion that the Saratoga could have been in Hong Kong at the time I thought. Well, at least I had a good time while I was posting it.
 
TheSonntag
Posts: 4440
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:23 pm

RE: End Of The Line For 4 Carriers

Wed Jan 20, 2016 2:53 pm

No Sinkex this time.
 
PC12Fan
Posts: 2134
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 11:50 pm

RE: End Of The Line For 4 Carriers

Fri Jan 22, 2016 1:34 am

No disrespect towards the other ships but you'd think with the history of the Forrestal and Saratoga they would seen a better fate. Maybe an artificial reef perhaps at the very least.
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
ThePointblank
Posts: 3469
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:39 pm

RE: End Of The Line For 4 Carriers

Fri Jan 22, 2016 3:09 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 5):
No Sinkex this time.
Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 6):
No disrespect towards the other ships but you'd think with the history of the Forrestal and Saratoga they would seen a better fate. Maybe an artificial reef perhaps at the very least.

SINKEX's and artificial reefs are a lot of work to organize and prepare for. Ships involved need to be cleaned, with dangerous material and potential contaminants removed and re-mediated. If the ship is meant to be an artificial reef to be dived upon, access holes need to be cut for divers. Environmental assessments need to be conducted, and legal challenges gone through.

Furthermore, with the supercarriers, the USN wants to safeguard some of the design elements involved in building the carriers and the effects of certain weapons on them; that's why when USS America was sunk during live-fire tests, she was sank in waters that were 5km deep (deeper than the wreck of the Titanic) to eliminate access to the ship except with very specialized gear and equipment (which the USN will know about).
 
747400sp
Posts: 3900
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 7:27 pm

RE: End Of The Line For 4 Carriers

Fri Jan 22, 2016 3:13 am

My first year in the Navy, I was disappointed that the Constellation was decommissioned, because want to see a carrier that had exhaust coming out of it, that's why I did not like the Reagan. After I transferred to Norfolk, I saw the Kennedy right before it took it's last voyage up to Boston and back to Mayport, so I did get my wish. I had a photo of my former ship the Truman, the Enterprise, the Roosevelt and the Kennedy, which I took, moored side by side.


PS: I wish I did not lose that photo, because that was a photo that I took, of 2 decommissioned carriers.
 
User avatar
neutrino
Posts: 1536
Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 5:33 pm

RE: End Of The Line For 4 Carriers

Fri Jan 22, 2016 10:13 am

I've been on a few decommissioned hulks such as Intrepid and Minsk but the Ranger remains the only active in-service carrier I ever toured in. Spent a whole afternoon aboard back in the 70s, climbing up & down, exploring all the non off-limits areas. Fielded plenty question to the sailors and airmen like any inquisitive teenager would. Bought a can of Coke that came in the new aluminum containers. First time I came across it as we only had the bin-based ones then, and had a bit of fun days later when I crushed the empty can with my fingers in front of awestruck mates. They thought I was very strong.
Next time you go by, don't mind toasting a coke to the old girl on my behalf.
Potestatem obscuri lateris nescitis
 
nomadd22
Topic Author
Posts: 1570
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:42 pm

RE: End Of The Line For 4 Carriers

Fri Jan 22, 2016 3:48 pm

I never understood how they made money scrapping these. The steel is only worth about $12 million. I wouldn't think any of the systems or components would sell for too much at that age, but they must have way. The company gets them anywhere from a dollar to a few million.
Anon
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 15112
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

RE: End Of The Line For 4 Carriers

Fri Jan 22, 2016 5:22 pm

I would have run one around either end of the runway China built in the south fins sea, and exploded some large holes in them so the could not be refloated.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
NBGSkyGod
Posts: 868
Joined: Sun May 30, 2004 7:30 am

RE: End Of The Line For 4 Carriers

Sat Jan 23, 2016 12:39 am

Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 10):
I never understood how they made money scrapping these. The steel is only worth about $12 million. I wouldn't think any of the systems or components would sell for too much at that age, but they must have way. The company gets them anywhere from a dollar to a few million.

Because they purchased them for 1 cent, then the towing fees were only around $1million, and the metal in a carrier is worth far more than a measly $12 mil, try $20 or 30 million or more. That is called a hefty profit in my book.
Pilots are idiots, who at any given moment will attempt to kill themselves or others.
 
Max Q
Posts: 8452
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

RE: End Of The Line For 4 Carriers

Sat Jan 23, 2016 3:34 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 11):
I would have run one around either end of the runway China built in the south fins sea, and exploded some large holes in them so the could not be refloated.

What would that achieve  
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
ThePointblank
Posts: 3469
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:39 pm

RE: End Of The Line For 4 Carriers

Sat Jan 23, 2016 4:25 am

Quoting NBGSkyGod (Reply 12):
Because they purchased them for 1 cent, then the towing fees were only around $1million, and the metal in a carrier is worth far more than a measly $12 mil, try $20 or 30 million or more. That is called a hefty profit in my book.

Not really. Scrapping a ship in the Western world is extremely expensive due to various health & safety and environmental regulations.

If you want a good example of this, look at the scrapping of the USS Coral Sea; the scrapping of Coral Sea was mired in legal and environmental problems since the onset. The yard that was scrapping Coral Sea went bankrupt as a result of all of the issues surrounding the scrapping. The yard had to deal with PCB's that needed to be removed from the ship, along with asbestos removal and disposal, and the thick steel was a massive challenge to cut up. The owners of the yard that was scrapping Coral Sea was sent to jail (and eventually died in prison) and fined due to health & safety and environmental violations.

[Edited 2016-01-22 20:27:41]
 
studedave
Posts: 475
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 4:21 am

RE: End Of The Line For 4 Carriers

Sat Jan 23, 2016 6:09 pm

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 14):
look at the scrapping of the USS Coral Sea

I'd rather not. She was my first ship.   




StudeDave
Classic planes, Classic trains, and Studebakers~~ what else is there???
 
NBGSkyGod
Posts: 868
Joined: Sun May 30, 2004 7:30 am

RE: End Of The Line For 4 Carriers

Sat Jan 23, 2016 6:36 pm

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 14):
If you want a good example of this, look at the scrapping of the USS Coral Sea; the scrapping of Coral Sea was mired in legal and environmental problems since the onset. The yard that was scrapping Coral Sea went bankrupt as a result of all of the issues surrounding the scrapping. The yard had to deal with PCB's that needed to be removed from the ship, along with asbestos removal and disposal, and the thick steel was a massive challenge to cut up. The owners of the yard that was scrapping Coral Sea was sent to jail (and eventually died in prison) and fined due to health & safety and environmental violations.

The Coral Sea was a debacle for sure, however lessons were learned by both the Navy and the scrapping industry, and the company presently breaking these carriers has been breaking ships for a while, including several former naval vessels. Look at Google Earth image history of the ships that have been broken there.
Pilots are idiots, who at any given moment will attempt to kill themselves or others.
 
ThePointblank
Posts: 3469
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:39 pm

RE: End Of The Line For 4 Carriers

Sun Jan 24, 2016 3:34 am

Quoting NBGSkyGod (Reply 16):

The Coral Sea was a debacle for sure, however lessons were learned by both the Navy and the scrapping industry, and the company presently breaking these carriers has been breaking ships for a while, including several former naval vessels. Look at Google Earth image history of the ships that have been broken there.

Ship breaking in the developed world is barely profitable. For example, Esco Marine, one of the ship breakers in Brownsville, Texas currently doing the scrapping of ex-USS Saratoga is currently in Chapter 11 bankruptcy proceedings.

Ship breakers in developing countries like India, Bangladesh, China and Pakistan don't care about worker safety, health regulations, and environmental regulations like how Western ship breakers would have to care about. Furthermore, the significantly lower wages in those developing countries helps drive the ship breaking industry there because ship breaking is a manual labour intensive job.
 
Sooner787
Posts: 2703
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:44 am

RE: End Of The Line For 4 Carriers

Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:52 pm

IIRC, the USS Kitty Hawk is the only carrier left in
Bremerton that will be towed to the breakers in Brownsville?

[Edited 2016-01-27 14:56:48]
 
LMP737
Posts: 6042
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

RE: End Of The Line For 4 Carriers

Thu Jan 28, 2016 1:05 pm

Quoting Sooner787 (Reply 18):
IIRC, the USS Kitty Hawk is the only carrier left in
Bremerton that will be towed to the breakers in Brownsville?

The USS Independence is moored in Bremerton as well.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
Sooner787
Posts: 2703
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:44 am

RE: End Of The Line For 4 Carriers

Mon Mar 07, 2016 8:36 pm

Has anyone heard any recent news about plans to turn JFK CV-67
into a floating museum?

OR...will she too meet her end in Brownsville ?   
 
nomadd22
Topic Author
Posts: 1570
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:42 pm

RE: End Of The Line For 4 Carriers

Mon Mar 07, 2016 10:38 pm

Quoting Sooner787 (Reply 20):
Has anyone heard any recent news about plans to turn JFK CV-67
into a floating museum?

OR...will she too meet her end in Brownsville ?

The Navy has her up for adoption. They're talking about taking her to Rhode Island or Portland harbor.
Anon
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: End Of The Line For 4 Carriers

Mon Mar 07, 2016 11:39 pm

Quoting neutrino (Reply 9):
Bought a can of Coke that came in the new aluminum containers. First time I came across it as we only had the bin-based ones then, and had a bit of fun days later when I crushed the empty can with my fingers in front of awestruck mates.

You are really dating yourself there. I only claim first hand knowledge of soda can with pull style tabs

Quoting Sooner787 (Reply 20):
Has anyone heard any recent news about plans to turn JFK CV-67
into a floating museum?

OR...will she too meet her end in Brownsville ?   

If Ted Kennedy was still alive it probably would have been done already.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
User avatar
kc135topboom
Posts: 11188
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: End Of The Line For 4 Carriers

Wed Mar 16, 2016 5:07 pm

Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 21):
The Navy has her up for adoption. They're talking about taking her to Rhode Island or Portland harbor.

I heard Battleship Cove in Fall River was also thinking about getting the Kennedy. It would be their second warship named Kennedy as the have the USS Kennedy, DD-850.
 
Sooner787
Posts: 2703
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:44 am

RE: End Of The Line For 4 Carriers

Fri Mar 18, 2016 9:13 pm

Quoting kc135topboom (Reply 23):
I heard Battleship Cove in Fall River was also thinking about getting the Kennedy. It would be their second warship named Kennedy as the have the USS Kennedy, DD-850.

That would be a great home for JFK, I just worry that the longer she sits in Philly,
The more $$$$$$ it will cost to clean her up and prepare her to become a museum.
 
User avatar
bully707
Posts: 1020
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 7:29 pm

RE: End Of The Line For 4 Carriers

Wed Mar 30, 2016 12:08 pm

Quoting kc135topboom (Reply 23):

That would be nice...!
Having been a liason officer on JFK during an excercise in the Caribbean in 1999...
Was with VAW123 "Screwtops" back then and enjoyed my time onboard immensly.

Followed her moves ever since and it really sucks seeing her mothballed in Philadelphia, off limits to enthusiasts...
"That's the good thing about the 707...it can do anything, but read!" Joe Patroni, Airport '70
 
Sooner787
Posts: 2703
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:44 am

RE: End Of The Line For 4 Carriers

Fri May 27, 2016 3:39 pm

Does anyone know if the Indy or Kitty Hawk will be the next
carrier to head from Bremerton to the Brownsville breakers?  
 
nomadd22
Topic Author
Posts: 1570
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:42 pm

RE: End Of The Line For 4 Carriers

Sat May 28, 2016 1:20 pm

Quoting Sooner787 (Reply 26):
Does anyone know if the Indy or Kitty Hawk will be the next
carrier to head from Bremerton to the Brownsville breakers?

Indy should be arriving in Brownsville this year. Kitty Hawk is still in reserve and her fate should be decided this year. I know Wilmington would like her.
Anon
 
Sooner787
Posts: 2703
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:44 am

Re: End Of The Line For 4 Carriers

Mon Jun 20, 2016 4:55 pm

I read article this morning about the new larger Panama Canal channel openings 26 Jun 2016.

I wonder if the Indy can fit thru the larger locks?
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 10630
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: End Of The Line For 4 Carriers

Mon Jun 20, 2016 7:21 pm

Sooner787 wrote:
I read article this morning about the new larger Panama Canal channel openings 26 Jun 2016.

I wonder if the Indy can fit thru the larger locks?


Nope! It will be long and deep enough but that flight deck.... still no.

USS Independence CV-62 Dims:
Length: 1,070 ft
Beam at waterline: 130 ft
Max (flight deck): 270 ft
Draft: 37 ft

New Panamax:
Length: 1,200 ft
Width: 161 ft
Draft: 50 ft

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
studedave
Posts: 475
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 4:21 am

Re: End Of The Line For 4 Carriers

Fri Jun 24, 2016 5:27 am

Tugger wrote:
Nope! It will be long and deep enough but that flight deck.... still no.

USS Independence CV-62 Dims:
Length: 1,070 ft
Beam at waterline: 130 ft
Max (flight deck): 270 ft
Draft: 37 ft

New Panamax:
Length: 1,200 ft
Width: 161 ft
Draft: 50 ft

Tugg

But the flight deck is about 50 above the waterline, sooooo....?



StudeDave
Classic planes, Classic trains, and Studebakers~~ what else is there???
 
angad84
Posts: 2086
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:04 pm

Re: End Of The Line For 4 Carriers

Fri Jun 24, 2016 7:31 am

They flight deck will still probably interfere with the walls of the locks. Can't say for sure, but that's my educated guess.

Cheers
A
 
zanl188
Posts: 3789
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:05 pm

Re: End Of The Line For 4 Carriers

Fri Jun 24, 2016 9:50 am

New locks use tugs vs locomotives to move ships in and out. Therefore when considering dimensions allowance must be made for the tugs. IMHO carriers won't fit.
Legal considerations provided by: Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 10630
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: End Of The Line For 4 Carriers

Fri Jun 24, 2016 3:40 pm

studedave wrote:
But the flight deck is about 50 above the waterline, sooooo....?

Each lock raises or lowers a ship by approximately 30 feet, ships have a 30 foot high walls to contend with:
Image

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
studedave
Posts: 475
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 4:21 am

Re: End Of The Line For 4 Carriers

Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:02 pm

Tugger wrote:
Each lock raises or lowers a ship by approximately 30 feet, ships have a 30 foot high walls to contend with:
Tugg

Yup- I know what a Carrier looks like- I've been to sea on about eight of them- from Coral Sea to Kitty Hawk to Enterprise and several of the Nimitz Class.
Now that I know about the walls, well, that will changes what I think.

But you know- even if it did fit- I'd bet the fees to use the locks would play into it as well. It's probably cheaper to take the long way 'round. I did it on CVN-72 back in 1990. It ain't so bad... :lol:


StudeDave
Classic planes, Classic trains, and Studebakers~~ what else is there???
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

Re: End Of The Line For 4 Carriers

Thu Jun 30, 2016 3:20 am

My understanding was to get some of the Essex class carriers through the canal during WWII when they still had straight flight decks, some of the 40mm gun tubs had to be cut off the side of the ship and then re-welded back on after the passage so it would fit.

There is some great footage of Yorktown making the passage in the WWII film, "The Fighting Lady" I think they have used shots from it on other films too.

Also if I remember correctly from the film they had to use 4" mooring lines hanging over the side for fenders because of the lack of side room didn't allow conventional fenders to be used in the lock.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Eiszeit, sharles and 9 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos