ReverseFlow wrote:

Just a thought.
The Bundeswehr got the CH-53G from 1972. The CH-47 had first flight in 1961.
So I'm assuming when the Bundeswehr got the -53G the -47 was also available.
Anyone know why the -53G was chosen back then 50 years ago?

Had some other exports, Austria, notably Israel, famed in military circles for CSAR in SE Asia.
A license production was arranged, though so too around that time CH-47’s in Italy.

And just today ìanother newspaper article released by the famous "Bild am Sonntag" that States that it is too short for the chinook has been made by the German federal government:
https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland ... ?cid=upday

That article is quoting the earlier one. So nothing really new. Best to wait for the official announcement

I think most of us came to the conclusion Boeing had the best offering / partnership and the Chinooks best fulfilled requirements, lead time and risks.

Boeing secures German €5B heavy-lift helicopter contract, report

https://defbrief.com/2022/04/24/boeing- ... ct-report/

Boeing’s Chinook was selected over the CH-53K that was proposed by Sikorsky.

According to Bild, the new helicopters that will replace the ageing Sikorsky-built CH-53G helicopters currently in service would arrive by 2025 or 2026. The report further said the Chinook was chosen due to its lower price and future commonality with other NATO allies operating the Chinook. A formal announcement on the decision is expected to be made by German defense minister Christine Lambrecht next week. Boeing worked with Airbus on securing the contract, and will involve a number of German companies in the production of the helicopters. According to an earlier announcement from the company, the Chinook partnership team consists of AERO-Bildung GmbH, CAE Elektronik GmbH, ESG Elektroniksystem- und Logistik-GmbH, Lufthansa Technik, Honeywell Aerospace and Rolls-Royce Deutschland.

Testimony to the sound Chinook design and realization, that 60 yrs later, there is still no chopper around to match Chinoooks capabilities.

Kind of mind bending seeing a Boeing product being promoted by an Airbus illustration from that article.

bt

How about we stay on topic? Why is it always so difficult for some people to stay on topic? We´re not even talking about helicopters anymore!
So, on topic, when can we expect an official announcement? Last week many German media were reporting the selection of the CH-47F as a done deal but now it looks like an official decision has not been taken yet.

steman wrote:

How about we stay on topic? Why is it always so difficult for some people to stay on topic? We´re not even talking about helicopters anymore!
So, on topic, when can we expect an official announcement? Last week many German media were reporting the selection of the CH-47F as a done deal but now it looks like an official decision has not been taken yet.

As stated some weeks ago a decision is expected at the end of this year when the competion is finished, so who knows what was the prupose of the article and this doens't mean that there is no preferred option.

CH-53K to reach initial operational capability this year, Germany considers purchase

In the April 24th article, it said the announcement is expected "next week". So unlikely they will wait until the end of the year. They have that large pot of money to accelerate some purchases that would otherwise be budget constraint.

bt

keesje wrote:

Testimony to the sound Chinook design and realization, that 60 yrs later, there is still no chopper around to match Chinoooks capabilities.

You're right - the competition here is MORE capable. If the CH-47 wins, it will not be due to capability, but due to other reasons.

ReverseFlow wrote:

Just a thought.
The Bundeswehr got the CH-53G from 1972. The CH-47 had first flight in 1961.
So I'm assuming when the Bundeswehr got the -53G the -47 was also available.
Anyone know why the -53G was chosen back then 50 years ago?

Payload. They wanted a Helicopter that could carry Wiesel (very) light tanks into the enemy´s rear with airborn assault troops. The tankette only existed as a TAF (Taktische Forderung/tactical requirement) at the time, but when Germany decided for the CH-53G the best CH-47 was the B model. With a lot less power.

best regards
Thomas

Both Germany and Boeing have "no comment" but several sites including Flightglobal have articles indicating that the Chinook will get an order for 60, formal announcement next week as it will come to the "floor".

https://www.inquirer.com/business/boein ... 20429.html

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ge ... 022-04-23/

Janes noted that CH-47 Block 2 Lot 1 begins production

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... er-upgrade

JayinKitsap wrote:

Janes noted that CH-47 Block 2 Lot 1 begins production

The word "production" has a different connotation for some of us. As in new built.

Looks like what they are doing is retrofit work . . . Taking an existing frame and swapping out with newer, better components.

bt

bikerthai wrote:

JayinKitsap wrote:

Janes noted that CH-47 Block 2 Lot 1 begins production

The word "production" has a different connotation for some of us. As in new built.

Looks like what they are doing is retrofit work . . . Taking an existing frame and swapping out with newer, better components.

bt

I didn't mention that in my post, yes it appears to be major retrofit rather than new frames. The Army is doing similar with the Abrams tank, same metal structure, new mechanical, wiring and gizmos. New except the frame probably carries its old life limits as to hours and cycles.

Railroad locomotives are having the same thing happen, no railroad wants to buy new, besides the old metal is probably better castings, forgings, and materials compared to the new stuff with a remaining life of decades. I expect the B-52 work to gradually include everyting like wing skin replacement and removing all of the old stuff that isn't now needed. Already about 3/4 of this is in the plans now (engines, radar, coms are in) but not the skins and other retrofit items.

JayinKitsap wrote:

Railroad locomotives are having the same thing happen, no railroad wants to buy new, besides the old metal is probably better castings, forgings, and materials compared to the new stuff with a remaining life of decades. I expect the B-52 work to gradually include everyting like wing skin replacement and removing all of the old stuff that isn't now needed. Already about 3/4 of this is in the plans now (engines, radar, coms are in) but not the skins and other retrofit items.

Being in the rail industry (my company has control systems on most locomotives), I can state that you are deeply incorrect, and there has been a major effort to upgrade locomotives due to new fuel economy and emissions standards. Any hesitancy is primarily because the railroads are exploring which new technology is best.

N328KF wrote:

JayinKitsap wrote:

Railroad locomotives are having the same thing happen, no railroad wants to buy new, besides the old metal is probably better castings, forgings, and materials compared to the new stuff with a remaining life of decades. I expect the B-52 work to gradually include everyting like wing skin replacement and removing all of the old stuff that isn't now needed. Already about 3/4 of this is in the plans now (engines, radar, coms are in) but not the skins and other retrofit items.

Being in the rail industry (my company has control systems on most locomotives), I can state that you are deeply incorrect, and there has been a major effort to upgrade locomotives due to new fuel economy and emissions standards. Any hesitancy is primarily because the railroads are exploring which new technology is best.

I indicated that the railroad locomotive industry is basically stopped ordering new, instead doing total rebuilds. Your reply is that "a major effort to upgrade locomotives", exactly WHAT I said. A representative article is the following where Wabtec is doing a total rebuild of 330 locomotives for Norfolk Southern. The physical frame of the locomotive, the primary end truck structure, and housings /enclosures are being brought up to like new. The engine blocks often are the same but basically everything else is new from scratch. Part of rebuild vs new is in some cases Tier 3 standards apply to rebuilds, but only Tier 4 is allowed for new within the US.

https://www.wabteccorp.com/newsroom/pre ... ocomotives

Wabtec's Texas plant that GE built not quite a decade ago is almost all rebuilds & very very few new frames in the plant.

https://augengeradeaus.net/2022/06/ents ... boeing-an/

Today, after the 100 billion EUR package for military was approved, Mrs. Lambrecht, MOD announced that the C47 will officially be selected:

Am 1. Juni 2022 informierte das Verteidigungsministerium das Parlament über die Entscheidung zur Nachfolgelösung des Waffensystems CH53.
Nach sorgfältiger Betrachtung aller Faktoren hat die Bundesministerin der Verteidigung Christine Lambrecht entschieden, die Beschaffung von 60 CH-47F in der modernen und zukunftsfähigen Konfiguration Block II Standard Range mit Luftbetankungsfähigkeit einzuleiten.
„Wir haben die Vor- und Nachteile und auch Risiken gründlich abgewogen – und uns dann einhellig für dieses Modell ausgesprochen. Der Chinook ist modern und erprobt. Mit diesem Modell stärken wir unsere Kooperationsfähigkeit in Europa. Zudem bekommen wir hier eine größere Flotte und gewinnen an Flexibilität,“ äußerte sich die Ministerin.
Die CH-47F ist ein etabliertes, technisch ausgereiftes, einsatzerprobtes Produkt, von dem mehr als 500 Lfz sowohl bei der US-Army als auch einer Reihe von europäischen Nutzern im Einsatz sind. Zu nennen sind hier insbesondere die Niederlande, mit denen wir bereits eine sehr enge Kooperation pflegen, die mit dieser Entscheidung noch weiter ausgebaut werden kann.
Der geringere Stückpreis der CH-47F ermöglicht zudem die Beschaffung einer höheren Stückzahl, was für die Streitkräfte eine größere operationelle Flexibilität bei gleichzeitiger Erfüllung aller wesentlichen Nutzerforderungen bedeutet.
Mit der Entscheidung für ein marktverfügbares und weltweit genutztes Produkt sinken die technischen, zeitlichen und auch finanziellen Risiken.
Zudem festigen wir mit der Beschaffung der CH-47F sowohl die transatlantische Partnerschaft, als auch die engen Beziehungen zu unseren europäischen Partnern und stärken die Interoperabilität

Short version: After careful consideration, Germany will procure 60 CH-47F in the modern Block II Standard Range version with aerial refueling capability. Reasons are: Cheaper Price, World Wide usefuly, established product, interoperability with partners.

.
.

Zu nennen sind hier insbesondere die Niederlande, mit denen wir bereits eine sehr enge Kooperation pflegen, die mit dieser Entscheidung noch weiter ausgebaut werden kann.

They got a ton of first hand Chinook experience and honest feed-back in recent joint exercises with the neighbors. https://www.blogbeforeflight.net/2019/0 ... lands.html

Akkording to the evening News show of German Radio station "Deutschlandradio" the price tag will be only be 4 billion Dollars.

Djlorry3 wrote:

Akkording to the evening News show of German Radio station "Deutschlandradio" the price tag will be only be 4 billion Dollars.

Interesting, given that the original quote was well over $10B with an available budget of $6B.

Djlorry3 wrote:

Akkording to the evening News show of German Radio station "Deutschlandradio" the price tag will be only be 4 billion Dollars.

These prices in military sales agreements rarely mean anything at all, unless one really gets into the weeds about spares, training, logistical support etc.

First CH-47F could be delivered as early as 2026 if the contract is signed by Q1 2023, says Boeing. All German Chinooks are planned to be variant F, block II, probably the same the US Army is getting.
https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/3138 ... deliveries

General maintenance will be performed by Airbus Helicopters in cooperation with LH Technik. Engines will be overhauled by RR Germany.
https://aerobuzz.de/militar/die-ersten- ... rt-werden/ [German]

Wolfgang Schoder, CEO of Airbus Helicopters Germany, said in Berlin that the CH-47 is the best and most capable heavy-lift helicopter in the world and a good choice for Germany.

Behind the pay wall. But the title says it.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 023-07-05/

bt

Since when does a 47 run 100 million euros just for procurement?

Nomadd wrote:

Since when does a 47 run 100 million euros just for procurement?

https://breakingdefense.com/2023/05/us- ... -included/ says:

The Boeing helicopters would come with a laundry list of add-ons, from electronic counter-measures and missile warning systems to skis and life rafts.

They're getting the fully-loaded models with lots of add-ons.

I think the US models get quoted as just the airframe price and all extras are 'government furnished equipment'.

Revelation wrote:

They're getting the fully-loaded models with lots of add-ons.

Notably air-to-air refueling probes. Here's the complete list.

Some German MPs warn of the risk posed by the fact that the Block II Standard Range refuelable version that Germany is procuring hasn't been certified by the US Army.