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Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 1): A little question... How can both helicopters be ferried by A400M, C-17 and C-5? |
Quoting columba (Thread starter): Germany will decide between CH 47F and CH 53K Decision will be made end of 2016 or 2017 Sign of contract 2018 First Delivery 2018 |
Quote: Overall, the program plans to reach operational status by 2019, a full four years behind its original schedule. |
Quoting Revelation (Reply 3): http://militaryaircraft-airbusds.com/aircraft/a400m/a400mabout.aspx answers in the positive for the Chinook on the A400M: |
Quoting columba (Reply 5): Was a typo first delivery 2022 - sorry |
Quote: In FY 2016, the unit cost of a CH-47F New Build is $29.81 million (total flyaway cost). The airframe costs $21.98 million, the two T55-GA-714A engines cost $2.12 million ($1.06 million each), and the avionics package costs $1.38 million. |
Quote: The DoD estimates the CH-53K will have a price tag of $75 million. |
Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 4): Basically, its easier to fly the helicopter to where you need it to be and take refueling and rest stops along the way. For example, CH-147F's have been flown across Canada from Petawawa to Vancouver before, all done via ferrying the aircraft, rather than stuffing it into a C-17. |
Quoting Ozair (Reply 7): Perhaps we will see a KC-130 purchase from the Germans similar to the French to overcome the A-400M rotary refuelling issues? |
Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 9): |
Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 4): Anytime you carry a helicopter in a cargo aircraft, it involves significant amounts of disassembly. Depending on the type and the size of both the aircraft and the helicopter, you are looking at anywhere from a few days to more than a week to reassemble and flight test the helicopter, plus you will need to have all of the tooling and equipment on hand to reassemble the helicopter. |
Quoting ptrjong (Reply 10): In the Gulf War, US helicopters were shipped, even from Germany. I guess the war preparations took a couple of months anyway. |
Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 4): Anytime you carry a helicopter in a cargo aircraft, it involves significant amounts of disassembly. Depending on the type and the size of both the aircraft and the helicopter, you are looking at anywhere from a few days to more than a week to reassemble and flight test the helicopter, plus you will need to have all of the tooling and equipment on hand to reassemble the helicopter. Basically, its easier to fly the helicopter to where you need it to be and take refueling and rest stops along the way. For example, CH-147F's have been flown across Canada from Petawawa to Vancouver before, all done via ferrying the aircraft, rather than stuffing it into a C-17. |
Quoting zanl188 (Reply 15): Wear & tear on the airframe & crew plus increased transit time outweighs any advantage of ferrying a helicopter. Plus if the helo goes tech enroute all bets are off. |
Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 17): |
Quoting zanl188 (Reply 18): Obviously no airlift available... it happens... |
Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 19): |
Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 19): You are also assuming there is suitable handling equipment on the other end to unload a helicopter and reassemble |
Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 4): Basically, its easier to fly the helicopter to where you need it to be and take refueling and rest stops along the way. |
Quoting WIederling (Reply 13): The A400M has slightly (if any) more height than the C17 but is narrower 4m versus 5.49m. |
Quote: Cargo Hold Width 13 ft |
Quote: Width (stub wings): 28 ft 4 in (8.64 m) Width (fuselage): 15 ft 6 in (4.7 m) |
Quoting JohnM (Reply 23): I have no doubt the CH-53K will be an outstanding aircraft. However, it is not just a plused up E, it is very different, and will need a bit of time to mature. I can tell you from my experience that bringing a very new design up to speed is no fun, especially a low rate build that the military does. |
Quoting JohnM (Reply 23): If you want to be mission capable as soon as possible with an awesome, proven machine, the CH-47F is the way to go. The -47F will have a decent MC rate (for a complex helicopter), which in turn will allow a higher usage for a much faster crew and maintainer qualification period. Parts and tech data is out there now. Then they can actually go out and perform missions. Not as much cargo weight, but very respectable. |
Quoting JohnM (Reply 23): The Chinook has a good airspeed also, no slouch in that department. |
Quoting Ozair (Reply 24): Indeed, in AFG the Chinooks would regularly outpace the escorting AH-64s, to the point were the Chinooks would have to slow down else they would arrive at the LZ first with no fire support. |
Quoting cargotanker (Reply 21): You're assuming that your limited examples of flying helicopters to airshows around Canada is somehow relevant to worldwide operations. How are you going to get a Chinook to Afghanistan from Canada? Or even Germany? You put it in a cargo plane, just like it's been done hundreds of times (maybe over a thousand?) in the last decade. |
Quoting cargotanker (Reply 21): This is your original statement. It's false, EXCEPT for airshows in Canada. |
Quoting Ozair (Reply 24): The Chinook is also cheaper and there will be more global operators, increasing spares availability and reducing upgrade costs. |
columba wrote:The German Air Force (Luftwaffe) would prefer the Boeing CH-47F Extended Range (ER) Chinook to fulfil its Schweren Transporthubschrauber (STH) requirement over the Sikorsky's CH-53K King Stallion, the service's chief disclosed on 11 May.
Speaking at European Air Chiefs Conference (EURAC) in Germany, Lieutenant General Karl Müllner said that he preferred the Chinook over the King Stallion as a future replacement platform for the Luftwaffe's current VFW-Fokker/Sikorsky CH-53G/GS/GA Stallion helicopters.
mxaxai wrote:Did he happen to mention why? With the poor state of the Luftwaffe's procurement & maintenance programs I expect the twin-rotor system to be less suitable, and it has less commonality to current equipment.
CX747 wrote:CH-47F has dominated this market for quite some time. Still a young, fresh model with plenty of life in it. Let's not forget all of the combat time in Afghanistan and Iraq where it has hauled everything plus the kitchen sink in all weather day or night.
columba wrote:The CH 47F is the Jeep version of a transport helicopter and that is what the German Air Force needs.
keesje wrote:It seems even after 50 years the Boeing Vertol tandem configuration is hard to beat, even for the Euro minded germans. Boeing has been working with Eurocopter on a concept based on the Chinook for many years. But programs like the NH90 scared the Euro air forces. Probably an improved CH-47 offers lowest risk / highest value. Like the Lakota proved to be for the US army.
Ozair wrote:That makes more sense. While I like the Chinook there is something beastly about the CH-53K.
Ozair wrote:Perhaps we will see a KC-130 purchase from the Germans similar to the French to overcome the A-400M rotary refuelling issues?
WIederling wrote:Ozair wrote:Perhaps we will see a KC-130 purchase from the Germans similar to the French to overcome the A-400M rotary refuelling issues?
they are hosing the problem:
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ll-426543/
France and Germany's defence ministers have agreed to create a joint air transport squadron that will operate Lockheed Martin C-130 Hercules aircraft.
The letter of intent (LoI), signed in Paris on 4 October, will see the Franco-German air transport squadron become operational by 2021. France is set to act as the frame nation of the squadron, which accordingly will be stationed in France.
France currently operates 14 C-130 aircraft (seven C-130H and seven C-130H-30 transporters) and has ordered an additional four aircraft (two C-130Js and two KC-130J tanker/transport). Germany doesn't currently operate the C-130 and so is planning to buy between four and six aircraft as its contribution to the joint squadron.
From the German point of view the primary task for the squadron will be non-combatant evacuation operations, especially for German and European nationals in crisis situations. The C-130Js will also close a German capability gap between the NHIndustries NH90 medium transport helicopter and the larger Airbus A400M transport aircraft.
BawliBooch wrote:Wonder why EADS or other European companies never considered launching a design in this class. Its time EU cut the apron strings.
Ozair wrote:And yet amazingly France and Germany continue with plans for a joint C-130 squadron...