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Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:53 pm
by vr773
keesje wrote:
German STH Helo Competition May Face One-Year Delay
http://aviationweek.com/defense/german-sth-helo-competition-may-face-one-year-delay

It seems very much political at this stage. Objectively an updated Chinook seems a very strong contender. But there's LM, Airbus Militairy, Airbus Helicopter, the French, Trumps priorities..


I think it's too early to say it's political - it's more procedural. The 2019 budget simply hasn't been finalized in time for the initially planned RFP submission.

I agree with you though that it may become political quickly as soon as the public learns that the only two products are American. In that case, the strategy will likely be to simply wait out the Trump administration. Technically, the current CH-53 can still fly until 2030 so the ministry doesn't feel as much pressure from the Bundeswehr yet.

Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:30 pm
by texl1649
I’d be fine with a roto forum but it’s a bit ironic for you to claim it will be apolitical as you’ve typed Trumps name more times than any other single poster by far about commercial and military topics.

Nothing in your aviation week link even indirectly makes it sound like politics is involved, it’s just Boeing pointing out how great their product and support are for this bid.

Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:42 pm
by keesje

Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:51 pm
by bikerthai
keesje wrote:


It is unfortunate but it is the sign of the time that many here in the states have learn to ignore what President Trump says. We just wait to see what he does and then try to react to it.
Foreign leaders should probably do the same. Just like any publicity seeking blowhard, if everyone ignore him, he may just go away, or at least change his strategy and be a little more diplomatic.

bt

Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:08 am
by seahawk
keesje wrote:


It has nothing to do with Trump. The whole 2019 budget has not passed the parliament yet. So logically you can not sign contracts or even a fully binding biding process, when you need money contained in the 2019 budget.

https://de.reuters.com/article/deutschl ... EKCN1M621F

Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:33 pm
by seahawk
And fresh from Berlin: "Next year's defense budget has now been established at 43.22 billion Euro, nearly a billion more than the original plan from May. More importantly, it includes authorization to commit to various major procurement projects extending over multiple fiscal years, including the future Heavy Transport Helicopter until 2031, multi-role Eurofighters to replace Tranche 1 aircraft until 2029, Multi-Purpose Combat Ship 180/F 126 until 2028, and German-Norwegian cooperation on the Type 212 CD submarine. If there are delays resulting in money not being used for those at particular points, it can be reshuffled into procurement of MEADS." International Press should have it soon.

https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/vertei ... t-101.html

Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:18 pm
by texl1649
Admittedly naive question: would the avic heavy lift helo have a shot here by any chance?

This program has changed over the last two years and admittedly may be years from a flyable model, but the growth to 42 tons sure seems to imply capability to carry the loads needed here. It should be at a fairly advanced state of engineering by now. I still think this is Sikorskys to lose though.

http://aviationweek.com/vertical-flight ... ceddcde16e

Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:48 pm
by N328KF
texl1649 wrote:
Admittedly naive question: would the avic heavy lift helo have a shot here by any chance?

This program has changed over the last two years and admittedly may be years from a flyable model, but the growth to 42 tons sure seems to imply capability to carry the loads needed here. It should be at a fairly advanced state of engineering by now. I still think this is Sikorskys to lose though.

http://aviationweek.com/vertical-flight ... ceddcde16e


There are a variety of reasons why this won't happen, but setting aside issues of national security (the main reason it won't happen), Lockheed and Boeing are both essentially done with their work, with Boeing having a shipping and proven product. Risk and supply chain are nonissues for their offerings.

Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:10 pm
by mxaxai
And now it's pretty much firm. 5,6 billion € ($ 6,4 billion) are allocated for the new helicopter until 2031.
https://www.aerobuzz.de/militar-news/hu ... h-starten/

Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:17 pm
by texl1649
Thx. I agree it would be an incredible long shot. I'd just like to see (emotionally) the sino Russian aviation sectors build out and see a competitive international market, long term. This really is a short term need though for Germany. It's costing them a fortune keeping only about a third of those birds mission capable.

Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:18 am
by Ozair
Looks like the heavy lift RW program continues. US$6.3 billion is a decent investment and should see quite a large order.

Timeline for German heavy-lift helo unaffected by budget ‘drama’

Germany’s delay in agreeing a defence budget should not impact the country’s efforts to procure a platform to replace its ageing CH-53G/GS/GA heavy-lift helicopters, an official from one of the two competing bidders told Jane’s on 27 November.

Speaking to Jane’s at the Berlin Security Conference, Frank Crisafulli, business development lead for heavy-lift helicopters at Sikorsky, said that the delay ahead of the 2019 defence budget being finally approved by the Bundestag budget committee earlier in November should have no real knock-on effect on the timeline for the Schwerer Transporthubschrauber (STH) heavy-lift helicopter procurement programme for the Luftwaffe.

“After the budget drama, the [EUR5.6 billion (USD6.3 billion)] funding has now been approved and we are very happy about that.

https://www.janes.com/article/84848/tim ... dget-drama

Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:28 am
by Ozair
Every delay on the CH-53K gives the CH-47 a greater chance of winning this contract. No insight into the specific issues they are facing but it is pretty clear that issues have slipped later into the dev program than should have. The closer Germany get to a decision on this the more likely the CH-53 will be seen as a difficult development project and not have the maturity required of the aircraft.

Lockheed's $31 billion King Stallion copter delayed by new flaws

Lockheed Martin Corp.'s $31 billion King Stallion helicopter program for the U.S. Marine Corps is likely to miss its key milestone — initial combat capability a year from now — because of technical flaws found in development testing.

Resolving the problems is forcing a major restructuring of the program that's "taking longer than planned" as "additional test failures or issues" are discovered during flight tests, the Defense Contract Management Agency said in a statement.

The King Stallion, designated CH-53K, will be the same size as its predecessor, the Super Stallion, but will be able to haul almost triple the cargo, lifting 27,000 pounds, according to Lockheed. The Navy's plans to buy 200 of the copters for the Marines was a prime motivation for the contractor's $9 billion acquisition of Sikorsky Aircraft from United Technologies Corp. in 2015.

Among the flaws discovered so far: exhaust gas sucked back into the engine, limited service life for parts for the main rotor gearbox, deficiencies with the tail rotor and driveshaft and late deliveries of redesigned parts.

The Defense Contract Management Agency estimates flight testing won't be complete until May 2020, or five months after the scheduled time to declare the helicopter has an initial combat capability.

The Navy's current budget plan calls for buying 61 of the helicopters through 2023, with annual procurement spending rising to $2.3 billion from $1.3 billion this year. In the next five-year plan for fiscal 2020 through fiscal 2024, the service is tentatively proposing to buy 10 fewer of the copters than planned and to reduce procurement funding over that period by as much as $1.2 billion. The figures could change before the president's budget is presented in February.

James Geurts, the Navy's top weapons buyer, "remains concerned and is closely monitoring cost, schedule and performance as lots of work remains," his spokesman, Capt. Danny Hernandez, said in a statement.

Bill Falk, Sikorsky's program director for the CH-53K, said in an email that the company has fully staffed the flight test team "with our most experienced and seasoned engineers, pilots, maintainers and support staff." The Navy and Sikorsky are "laser-focused on successfully executing and completing the test program in a safe and efficient manner to deliver the King Stallion" and "support operational deployment in 2023-2024," he said.

Delays for the King Stallion, the first major acquisition program given a go-ahead by Defense Secretary Jim Mattis, may make it a prime candidate for congressional scrutiny as Democrats take control of the House in the new year.

The current projected unit acquisition cost, including development, is $139.5 million per aircraft, according to the latest Navy acquisition report. That's 20 percent more than the baseline set in 2005. A 1982 law would require notifying Congress if the overrun reaches or exceeds 30 percent of the baseline.

The Navy and Bethesda, Maryland-based Lockheed have placed a hold on negotiations for a second batch of six helicopters to better balance the risks of building aircraft as they're still being developed, Hernandez said.

The Navy is working with Lockheed to "re-evaluate and restructure the detailed program schedule, which includes extending completion" of the current development phase, Greg Kuntz, spokesman for the Naval Air Systems Command, said in an email.

The program's restructuring "incorporates solutions for technical challenges," including for the "exhaust gas re-ingestion" problem, he said. The Navy has "not yet made a formal determination" of a new initial combat capability date, Kuntz said.

The test program has achieved more than 1,200 flight hours, he said. But the program's flight test pace and achievements were "less than projected" because technical problems were discovered "later than expected" or were not sufficiently resolved, he said.

https://www.stripes.com/news/us/lockhee ... s-1.561284

Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:02 am
by columba
At the moment I would bet my money on the CH 47 for various reasons anyway.....

Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:28 pm
by texl1649
Tender/RFP issued. Sure enough, it’s basically CH-53K vs. Chinook. 2023 delivery target. The G model’s are just terribly expensive to maintain at this point.

https://www.janes.com/article/86953/ger ... ia=twitter

Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:06 am
by SuperiorPilotMe
Ozair wrote:
Every delay on the CH-53K gives the CH-47 a greater chance of winning this contract. No insight into the specific issues they are facing but it is pretty clear that issues have slipped later into the dev program than should have.


This is becoming such LockMart MO it needs to seriously become the time to question their basic competency - or moreover, whatever it is in their corporate culture that makes them prone to this. They’re hardly the only ones as Musk’s ventures have the same issues too (though Telsa and their automotive pursuits seem more effected than SpaceX).

Either way I still hope LM wins I’m tiring of what’s looking more and more like a Boeing monopoly (>85% domestic mainline narrow-body production, a 100% lock on domestic widebody production until the nation itself becomes politically unviable).

Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:02 am
by ThePointblank
SuperiorPilotMe wrote:
Ozair wrote:
Every delay on the CH-53K gives the CH-47 a greater chance of winning this contract. No insight into the specific issues they are facing but it is pretty clear that issues have slipped later into the dev program than should have.


This is becoming such LockMart MO it needs to seriously become the time to question their basic competency - or moreover, whatever it is in their corporate culture that makes them prone to this. They’re hardly the only ones as Musk’s ventures have the same issues too (though Telsa and their automotive pursuits seem more effected than SpaceX).

Either way I still hope LM wins I’m tiring of what’s looking more and more like a Boeing monopoly (>85% domestic mainline narrow-body production, a 100% lock on domestic widebody production until the nation itself becomes politically unviable).

Well, Sikorsky was sold to LM by UTC in 2015, in the middle of CH-53K development.

Considering Sikorsky's competence, I would point to the issues getting the CH-148 Cyclone into service... endless delays and issues, and it is only just now they are starting to become operational, 10 years late.

Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:38 am
by texl1649
The King Stallion issues are real, but it sounds like the remaining outstanding ones aren’t that big a deal (hot gases impacting aircraft surfaces mainly). ‘None of these issues seem likely to be a deal breaker in a German evaluation (the gearbox modifications seem to be complete). It’s basically US Dep’t of testing and eval making sure life cycle costs/estimates will hold up.

“The deficiencies include airspeed indication anomalies, low reliability of the main rotor gearbox, hot gas impingement on aircraft structures, tail boom and tail rotor structural problems, overheating of main rotor dampers, fuel system anomalies, high temperatures in the number-two engine bay and hot gas ingestion by the number-two engine, which could reduce available power.

“Sikorsky continues to address design deficiencies discovered in developmental testing,” that include concerns over the service life of the main rotor gearbox falling short of the Marine Corps requirement. To correct that problem, Sikorsky is modifying internal gears and their interfaces, the report says.

“Engine and auxiliary power unit hot gas impingement on the aircraft structure during some flight regimes has not been solved,” according to DOT&E. Meanwhile, on several test flights, temperatures on the composite skin of the aircraft were approaching structural limits, requiring “termination of some maneuvers to prevent aircraft damage.” Other testing revealed performance anomalies in the CH-53K tail boom design, including unexpected vibration and resonance that threatened to damage hydraulic lines and other tail components, according to the report.“

https://www.rotorandwing.com/2019/01/31 ... y-service/

Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 12:39 am
by Ozair
This development is very interesting in the context of the German tender. While the CH-47 will remain in service with a number of nations for many years to come the US Army’s decision to not acquire the Blk II aircraft in the number expected will likely impact price and long term support and sustainment.

The CH-53K becomes perhaps a more viable long term prospect, albeit likely significantly more expensive to acquire and probably operate.

What will be the fate of the Chinook? Even the Army isn’t sure

For now the Army has decided not to buy the next variant of the CH-47F Chinook cargo helicopter for the conventional force and a key Army leader has indicated that decision could change down the road while another said there’s no going back.

And while it remains unclear what the Army might ultimately do, Boeing is fighting to build its Chinook Block II variant as planned, arguing that even if the service ultimately decided to field the version with a new rotor blade design and transmission to the active force several years from now, it might be too late to repair the damage to its industrial base and production line.

The Army decided in its fiscal year 2020 budget request that the Block II Chinook would be one of the billpayers for its high priority modernization efforts. For one, the service is trying to field two brand new helicopters to replace part of the AH-64 Apache and UH-60 Black Hawk helicopter fleets in record time, but it’s also trying to develop and procure long-range precision fires, a new air-and-missile defense system, manned and robotic combat vehicles and revamp its network.

The service said it would only buy Chinook Block II helicopters in the form of the G-model — a Special Operations version. Only 69 of those will be built. Boeing is already under contract to build engineering and manufacturing development versions of the CH-47F Block II and to begin building G-model aircraft.

...

https://www.defensenews.com/digital-sho ... isnt-sure/

More at the link.

Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:16 pm
by bikerthai
Ozair wrote:
While the CH-47 will remain in service with a number of nations for many years to come the US Army’s decision to not acquire the Blk II aircraft in the number expected will likely impact price and long term support and sustainment.


Even if the US army decides not to buy the latest Block frames, does not mean that they will not upgrade their existing frame to enable service late into the century. And being somewhat bias, I would propose that Boeing, with all the infrastructure to in both BDS and BCA sides, would be in a better position to support legacy aircraft even after production stop.

bt

Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:58 am
by texl1649
Ye olde Vertol just seems to be at the end of it’s lifespan. Not that the original CH-53 was much younger/newer, but the K really is a new aircraft. The previous substantive improved model, for goodness sakes, was the D model in 1982. Even the block II has the ancient T55 ultimately powering it.

Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:39 am
by Ozair
texl1649 wrote:
Ye olde Vertol just seems to be at the end of it’s lifespan. Not that the original CH-53 was much younger/newer, but the K really is a new aircraft. The previous substantive improved model, for goodness sakes, was the D model in 1982. Even the block II has the ancient T55 ultimately powering it.


The US DoD seems keen to increase CH-53K production including though funding an alternate manufacture for the main gear box, a constant source of trouble for the aircraft since development started.

Pentagon seeks alternate gearbox to mitigate CH-53K production risk

The US Department of Defense (DoD) is looking to address ongoing problems with the Sikorsky CH-53K King Stallion's main gearbox (MGB) by sourcing an alternate supplier.

The Naval Air Systems Command (NAVAIR) issued a solicitation on 22 April for alternative sources for the MGB to mitigate current production risk and secure volume increases for future production.

The CH-53K is fitted with an advanced drive system incorporating a multiple-path split-torque gearbox with load-sharing capability, which enables the helicopter to use the extra power of the three General Electric T408-GE-400 turboshaft engines.

This gearbox was one of three critical technologies on the helicopter that had not reached the desired levels of maturity by the time system development was launched in late 2005. Problems still had not been fully resolved in 2014 when a redesign of the MGB delayed the aircraft's maiden flight, which was finally achieved in October 2015. The US Office of the Director, Operational Test and Evaluation (DOT&E) 2018 report released earlier this year noted the MGB's low reliability and reduced service-life projections.

...

https://www.janes.com/article/88004/pen ... ction-risk

More at the link.

bikerthai wrote:

Even if the US army decides not to buy the latest Block frames, does not mean that they will not upgrade their existing frame to enable service late into the century. And being somewhat bias, I would propose that Boeing, with all the infrastructure to in both BDS and BCA sides, would be in a better position to support legacy aircraft even after production stop.

bt

There isn’t any indication that the CH-47 fleet will be upgraded to Blk II standard. In fact I would put that possibility as more remote than the US Army investing, as it has stated its desire to, in a new fleet of RW aircraft as per the current concepts airframes being funded. The CH-47 will likely serve for a long time to come but we will see whether the US Army will continue to fund it to the level required or upgrade to the Blk II standard outside the SF community.

Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 11:35 am
by keesje
I can see the German, UK, Dutch, Canadians willing to buy new C47s to replace old fleets, but has be be a feasible up to date version, to ensure efficient operations for 30-40 years.

Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 11:17 pm
by Revelation
keesje wrote:
I can see the German, UK, Dutch, Canadians willing to buy new C47s to replace old fleets, but has be be a feasible up to date version, to ensure efficient operations for 30-40 years.

Well, they've certainly shown they are good for 30-40 years, but I don't know if anyone is around any more who will build new ones.

Image

Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:47 am
by Ozair
keesje wrote:
I can see the German, UK, Dutch, Canadians willing to buy new C47s to replace old fleets, but has be be a feasible up to date version, to ensure efficient operations for 30-40 years.

No doubt that the Chinook will be around for a long time and I think it is still the favourite for this competition, it’s not like the CH-53K hasn't had its share of issues. The CH-47 you’d think will be cheaper to run over the duration as well and have commonality with other European operators, Italy, Netherlands, Spain, UK and Turkey while the CH-53K will likely only have the USMC and perhaps a couple of small niche operators.

The Blk II feels to me like an incremental upgrade and I don’t see a lot of users going out to upgrade their fleets to that standard, especially if US don;t. My take on the reduction of US orders is that the German competition will likely be a little closer but Boeing should be able to win this with the more mature and proven option.

Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 8:09 pm
by texl1649
Why is the CH-47 likely to be cheaper to run over the duration though? It's, at it's core a T-55 powered aircraft that entered service in 1962. The US Army clearly wants to move away from further procurement of the type.

https://www.military.com/daily-news/201 ... ement.html

The CH-53G's won't be replaced until they are roughly 50 years past EIS, at the earliest (1971-2021?) As the Germans clearly don't intend to start replacing their major systems on 20-30 year cycles, it's hard to argue the CH-47 would be cheaper around 2060 to operate than what amounts to a new frame/engine today on the Lockheed.

Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Posted: Fri May 03, 2019 7:08 am
by keesje
I can not imagine Boeing giving up on such a popular product. It has such strong unique capabilities.

Space, cg tolerance, payload, maneuverability, speed..

I have no info, but I could see a major upgrade of the CH47 coming up.

New engines, rotors, systems, cockpit etc.

It would take year / billions, but the market seems to be there.

https://youtu.be/YozAq-exlGE

Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Posted: Fri May 03, 2019 12:31 pm
by Ozair
texl1649 wrote:
Why is the CH-47 likely to be cheaper to run over the duration though? It's, at it's core a T-55 powered aircraft that entered service in 1962. The US Army clearly wants to move away from further procurement of the type.

https://www.military.com/daily-news/201 ... ement.html

The CH-53G's won't be replaced until they are roughly 50 years past EIS, at the earliest (1971-2021?) As the Germans clearly don't intend to start replacing their major systems on 20-30 year cycles, it's hard to argue the CH-47 would be cheaper around 2060 to operate than what amounts to a new frame/engine today on the Lockheed.

No doubt the Army wants to replace the CH-47 as the article I linked above indicates but only two engines, smaller aircraft and reduced weight will likely lead toward lower sustainment costs. There will almost certainly be more CH-47 flying around for the next 30+ years compared to CH-53Ks and that plays a big part in long term sustainment and parts availability.

Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Posted: Fri May 03, 2019 12:45 pm
by Ozair
keesje wrote:
I can not imagine Boeing giving up on such a popular product. It has such strong unique capabilities.

Space, cg tolerance, payload, maneuverability, speed..

I have no info, but I could see a major upgrade of the CH47 coming up.

New engines, rotors, systems, cockpit etc.

It would take year / billions, but the market seems to be there.

https://youtu.be/YozAq-exlGE

If the US Army, the primary and largest operator, is walking away from it then it doesn't bode well for Boeing to invest much more in the platform, certainly not to the level you are suggesting. The economic return from future sales is unlikely to be there, unless the aircraft is sufficiently modified to meet the future heavy transport requirement.

Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Posted: Fri May 03, 2019 2:41 pm
by keesje
Ozair wrote:
keesje wrote:
I can not imagine Boeing giving up on such a popular product. It has such strong unique capabilities.

Space, cg tolerance, payload, maneuverability, speed..

I have no info, but I could see a major upgrade of the CH47 coming up.

New engines, rotors, systems, cockpit etc.

It would take year / billions, but the market seems to be there.

https://youtu.be/YozAq-exlGE

If the US Army, the primary and largest operator, is walking away from it then it doesn't bode well for Boeing to invest much more in the platform, certainly not to the level you are suggesting. The economic return from future sales is unlikely to be there, unless the aircraft is sufficiently modified to meet the future heavy transport requirement.


That could very be part of high level cat & mouse. Boeing wants to further milk the Chinooks, US Army wants a future proof upgrade. What are they gonna replace their aging heavy duty "trucks" with otherwise? CH53K's ? expensive Defiants? Little alternatives & Boeing knows..

Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Posted: Fri May 03, 2019 6:01 pm
by texl1649
Well, the heavy lift replacement for the US Army is the last in the priority list right now. The target for the medium lift is $43 million, vs. under $20 for a UH-60M.

My guess is, that once they do get around to procuring heavy lift replacements for the Chinooks (of which the Army has a comparatively youngish fleet vs. the UH-60 and AH-64's/scout role aircraft, of around 540), it will be a faster aircraft, in smaller quantities, for around $60MM each in 2019 dollars, ideally with commonality to whatever replaces the Blackhawks. (BTW, the block II CH-47F upgrades included a new rotor).

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/2 ... helicopter

I think Boeing realizes they won't likely win a 2035 or so Chinook replacement competition with an "evolved" chinook of any kind. There are 400 or so in the rest of the world, today, but again realistically if the US Army stops upgrading/buying new, the future sales of the aircraft are going to be limited/will limit investment. It is perhaps akin to theorizing Southwest Airlines announcing they are done buying new 737's; not much more investment is gonna happen once that day comes in the model.

Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Posted: Wed May 22, 2019 7:17 pm
by texl1649
This could I guess make it more interesting. T408 powdered CH-47F with the upgraded transmission is a bit significant, if perhaps too late to bid/include in the German evaluation here.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/2 ... new-ch-53k

Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:49 am
by ELBOB
keesje wrote:
I have no info, but I could see a major upgrade of the CH47 coming up.
New engines, rotors, systems, cockpit etc.
It would take year / billions, but the market seems to be there.


Boeing-Vertol investigated that in the early 1990s with the Model 360, which was a Sea Knight-sized composite airframe with Chinook engines and new dynamics. It was very fast and capable but they didn't expand it beyond a technology demonstrators because, frankly, building metal-and-rivets Chinooks was more lucrative

http://americanhelicopter.museum/aircra ... -model-360

Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:51 pm
by bikerthai
The fuselage skeleton is covered with load­ bearing Kevlar and Nomex honeycomb skin and crown panels that eliminate corrosion and reduce air­ frame empty weight by approximately 25 percent.


Wow, I wonder why they chose Kevlar as opposed to Graphite? Better ballistic protection?

Well, the manufacturing technology for composite have changed quite a bit, and they have the experience of the V-22 under their belt . . .

bt

Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:08 am
by JayinKitsap
A FG article on Boeing soon to be testing a CH-47 with the T-408's which the King Stallion has 3 of, the CH-47 just 2 but a horsepower increase of 2,500 HP over the current T55. Maybe it was decided that this should be added to the Block II

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... gi-458380/

Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:57 pm
by texl1649
Somewhat unsurprisingly, Sikorsky thinks the CH-53K is the best/only option for the Germans. This is a bit more negative toward the Chinook than I'd have expected, especially given the abysmal reliability of the existing stallions for the Luftwaffe.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... rs-458939/

"However, the two aircraft on offer are hugely different. While the three-engined CH-53K offers a maximum take-off weight of almost 40t, the tandem-rotor Chinook is smaller, at 22.6t.

But the Boeing aircraft would be cheaper to acquire and operate, and offers interoperability with a large number of European and NATO countries, including Canada, the Netherlands, the UK and USA.

Schultz argues that the "real question" is whether, when a helicopter may be operated for up to 40 years, "you should buy a helicopter that is a 40-year-old design? I just don't understand that model.

"You wouldn't buy a television today that was designed in the 1980s," he says.

Schultz points to the CH-53K's clean-sheet design – down to small details like improved cockpit ergonomics – and performance, while still being able to operate within the same footprint as the D-model aircraft."

Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 1:35 pm
by bikerthai
:rotfl: I am waiting for them to trot out "Three engine is better than two" mantra. But I guess they may be too smart for that.

texl1649 wrote:
"you should buy a helicopter that is a 40-year-old design?


Would you buy a long range reconnaissance aircraft that is 50+ old design? The US Navy may be doing that until 2025, with the P8.

If it does the job reliably and efficiently . . .

bt

Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:26 pm
by SuperiorPilotMe
There’s a huge difference between an airframe 60-70 years old like a B-52 and a design in continuous production like a 737 or CH-47, where the actual flying bits and large chunks of fuselage don’t even have significant structural resemblance to the original design.

Not to mention the P-8 is replacing an even older aircraft in British service with actual legacy structural components.

Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:34 am
by N328KF
SuperiorPilotMe wrote:
There’s a huge difference between an airframe 60-70 years old like a B-52 and a design in continuous production like a 737 or CH-47, where the actual flying bits and large chunks of fuselage don’t even have significant structural resemblance to the original design.

Not to mention the P-8 is replacing an even older aircraft in British service with actual legacy structural components.


Agreed. Pretty much the only thing the P-8 has in common with the 737-100 are things like metal panels, ribs, etc. Everything else is different.

Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:24 pm
by bikerthai
N328KF wrote:
P-8 has in common with the 737-100 are things like metal panels, ribs, etc. Everything else is different.


Even those metal panels and ribs are different. As the design evolve (increased weight) and improvement in alloy and manufacturing, these parts would be the first to take advantage of the change. Things that stayed the same, more or less, are the interior panels and floor panels. The material and manufacturing process for those have not changed for at least 30 years. There is an interior part that was designed for the original 767 that is still flying on the current P-8. They had to update the drawing with a digital version because the original mylar master is kapute. But the part is the same, with the same part number.

bt

Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2019 8:52 am
by mxaxai
Sikorsky remains confident in this program. They announced that they want to establish a logistics hub at Leipzig airport, in cooperation with their local partner Rheinmetall. Note that none of the helicopters will be based in Leipzig...
Of course Boeing has local partners as well, so this announcement doesn't imply that either company has the upper hand. The question of where the new jobs are created may be relevant for political reasons, though.
https://www.mdr.de/sachsen/leipzig/leip ... e-100.html [German]

Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:52 am
by texl1649
T408’s on a Chinook have been photo’d.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/3 ... 08-engines

Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:00 pm
by JayinKitsap

Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:59 pm
by texl1649
Did Boeing in fact propose/optionally propose the T408’s though? The Luftwaffe obviously needs to eye the most easily maintainable aircraft moving forward. Saying they ‘operate’ 78 CH-53G’s is a bit of a stretch.

Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:07 pm
by Revelation
.

Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:47 pm
by Ozair
texl1649 wrote:
Did Boeing in fact propose/optionally propose the T408’s though? The Luftwaffe obviously needs to eye the most easily maintainable aircraft moving forward. Saying they ‘operate’ 78 CH-53G’s is a bit of a stretch.

DefenseNews has some interesting comments on the submission and how the requirements had changed from a very basic aircraft to a more customized variant.

The Bundeswehr initially wanted a no-frills, off-the-shelf cargo helicopter that would be easy on the defense budget. Notably, the Germans also want to use the STH choppers for combat search-and-rescue operations, with plans to raise that mission profile throughout the Air Force’s ranks.

But last year's solicitation came with an unexpected level of complexity, Frank Crisafulli, Sikorsky's director of international business development for heavy helicopters, told reporters during a company presentation in Bonn, Germany, on Monday.

“Folks were caught by surprise,” he said. The added complications are due, for example, to the Bundeswehr’s goal of having the helicopters certified in accordance with European civilian aviation regulations. In addition, German officials want a weather radar better than the one offered in the Marine Corps version of the CH-53K, plus a multilayered radio communications setup," Crisafulli said.


https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... pter-race/

A more capable weather radar and comms systems for the CH-53K to me infers that there were some very specific requests or requirements. I’m not sure if that would have extended to a specific engine but it would seem more likely to me that an engine upgrade would be considered as a mid-life upgrade option and not for a new build that would make the German H-47 a completely separate and orphaned variant.

Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:26 pm
by texl1649
LOL, the Germans can’t maintain any of their existing aircraft remotely reliably, so they are requesting/specifying special radios and radars (among other things) for their next ones.

The Chinooks have a lot of stuff hanging/protruding from them nowadays, I imagine the T408 is somewhat inevitable for much of the US Army fleet at this point over the next 10 years, it’s hardly likely to be an orphan, imho.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/3 ... res-system

Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:42 pm
by Ozair
texl1649 wrote:
The Chinooks have a lot of stuff hanging/protruding from them nowadays, I imagine the T408 is somewhat inevitable for much of the US Army fleet at this point over the next 10 years, it’s hardly likely to be an orphan, imho.

I agree that a T408 is an eventuality for the US Army CH-47 fleet but for the Germans to start that process and be the sole operator for a period of time seems a larger risk than the benefits the T408 would provide. Better to have the US do all the work and then leverage the benefits for a much smaller cost later.

Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:06 am
by bikerthai
Did I read it right that they will also sub out the maintenance contract to pay for mission readiness?

If that is the case, then the CH-47 may have the advantage there with support contracts from India to England giving it the benefit of more availability of spares.

bt

Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 11:09 am
by keesje
The CH-53G fleet averages an age of 48.5 years (!)

Boeing opened a german webside.

Image
https://www.boeing.de/chinook

Image

Bids are in. https://www.flightglobal.com/helicopter ... 38.article

Airbus helicopter and Leonardo have been side lined, something new would take to much time, money, risk.

Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:35 pm
by texl1649
Yes they are ancient 70’s-era machines. Readiness per 2019 report is around 25% which is actually very good for the Luftwaffe of today.

“ Parts on PUMA are obtained via cannibalisation. Readiness ~25%.
-NH-90 helo readiness just a fraction of airframes (no details). Project 134 months behind schedule, 1.3 billion over budget.
-CH-53 readiness of 71 airframes at 25%. Tornado 93 airframes, less than 25% operational.
-A400M now at 31 aircraft. Despite some positive reports target of 7,200 flying hours missed, only 3.700 hrs done. 148 months behind FOC milestone, 1.6 billion over budget.
-Navy: Massive delays in maintenance b/c once hulls are in yard, the repair log explodes.”

https://twitter.com/alexluck9/status/12 ... 49568?s=21

I came across this here, a USN-focused blog as the hollow force implications are also a challenge on the other side of the pond right now as well. I believe readiness should be a top priority in any future acquisitions for this program, and perhaps they have a plan via outsourced support/maintenance agreements to do much better with the future helicopter chosen.

https://blog.usni.org/?p=29239