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washingtonflyer
Topic Author
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OV-10s Brought Out Of Retirement To Fight Isis

Sun Mar 13, 2016 1:00 pm

http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/11/politi...lanes-used-against-isis/index.html

Interesting article. More refugees bring brought back out of Davis Monthan?

FYI: I cant seem to post this to the military forum....Perhaps a mod can move it when appropriate.
 
petertenthije
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RE: OV-10s Brought Out Of Retirement To Fight Isis

Sun Mar 13, 2016 1:56 pm

So the same air force that is trying to retire the modernized A-10 because it is too slow and not survivable enough on the 21st century battlefield is re-introducing the OV-10? That makes perfect sense.  
Attamottamotta!
 
angad84
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RE: OV-10s Brought Out Of Retirement To Fight Isis

Sun Mar 13, 2016 8:00 pm

Quoting petertenthije (Reply 1):
So the same air force that is trying to retire the modernized A-10 because it is too slow and not survivable enough on the 21st century battlefield is re-introducing the OV-10? That makes perfect sense.

Came here to post this. But to be fair, they do state clearly that this is an experiment – although pulling aircraft from the boneyard means they likely have a decent idea already about whether the experiment is worth it  

Cheers
Angad
 
Ozair
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RE: OV-10s Brought Out Of Retirement To Fight Isis

Sun Mar 13, 2016 8:29 pm

Quoting petertenthije (Reply 1):
So the same air force that is trying to retire the modernized A-10 because it is too slow and not survivable enough on the 21st century battlefield is re-introducing the OV-10? That makes perfect sense.

It does make sense. The purpose of the OV-10 is to locate and designate targets for other aircraft. The A-10 is just one of the aircraft that an OV-10 will find targets for.

Let us not be deceived though, the OV-10 can operate in this environment because the air threat is negligible and it is clearly not a 21st century threat environment. The OV-10 struggled in the later years of Vietnam and during GW1 due to an increased threat to aircraft, especially low and slow aircraft.

From the article.

Quote:
acknowledged that the slower planes were vulnerable to other modern enemy aircraft and anti-aircraft missiles, he said the planes would be "extremely effective" in environments like Iraq and Afghanistan, where the terrorists have very limited anti-aircraft weapons.
 
nomadd22
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RE: OV-10s Brought Out Of Retirement To Fight Isis

Mon Mar 14, 2016 12:13 am

Quoting Ozair (Reply 3):

Let us not be deceived though, the OV-10 can operate in this environment because the air threat is negligible and it is clearly not a 21st century threat environment. The OV-10 struggled in the later years of Vietnam and during GW1 due to an increased threat to aircraft, especially low and slow aircraft.

This sort of fighting might very well be the most common threat environment in the 21st century. They're so caught up in making ludicrous high tech, ridiculously expensive systems, they forget that battle is often a street fight where OV-10/A-10 type weapons can be more usefull than $100 million toys they're afraid to risk.
Anon
 
Flighty
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RE: OV-10s Brought Out Of Retirement To Fight Isis

Mon Mar 14, 2016 5:00 am

Quoting Ozair (Reply 3):
OV-10 can operate in this environment because the air threat is negligible and it is clearly not a 21st century threat environment.

But you know that it IS happening in the 21st century. 21st century threats include beheadings, guys with goats, samurai swords etc.

It turns out fighting irregular goons is what the US military is doing in the 21st century. 70 years ago, we reached the limits of total war. While we keep those doomsday tools handy just in case, total war is not what what the US military does anymore. That was 20th century warfare.

I ask you, what country do you expect we will be fighting? Iran? Unlikely but even if we do, let's consider Iraq 2003 as a model. Saddam's forces took a short time to neutralize. The irregulars took 15 years and counting.

Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 4):
This sort of fighting might very well be the most common threat environment in the 21st century.

So far this is factually correct.

Then we might look to Ukraine style "phantom" troops whose origin isn't that clear. In a binary or digital world of drones, the country with the best drones can conquer all other countries. At least overt enemies. Which leads to covert enemies.

Once the binary high tech stage of battle is won (by the high tech master) the need for low-tech weapons returns. Until robots master that.
 
ThePointblank
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RE: OV-10s Brought Out Of Retirement To Fight Isis

Mon Mar 14, 2016 7:13 am

Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 4):

This sort of fighting might very well be the most common threat environment in the 21st century. They're so caught up in making ludicrous high tech, ridiculously expensive systems, they forget that battle is often a street fight where OV-10/A-10 type weapons can be more usefull than $100 million toys they're afraid to risk.

One cannot predict the future. If you went back into the late 1970's and told everyone that the US would invade Iraq to liberate Kuwait, the Soviet Union would cease to exist, we would be bombing Yugoslavia twice, that the US would be attacked by Islamic terrorists, and we would be invading and occupying Afghanistan and Iraq, you would have been laughed out of the room.

Edit: Also, see this article. There is a clear preference in assets even in the battlefield:

http://www.defensenews.com/story/def...readiness-high-end-fight/81580698/

In Afghanistan, different platforms are preferred in different areas of the country. The A-10's are preferred in the south where it's flat, in the east, they want MQ-9 Reapers in the valley's and hills, in the north, the B-1 Lancer is king of CAS, while in the west, commanders there want the F-15E.

[Edited 2016-03-14 00:17:39]
 
Ozair
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RE: OV-10s Brought Out Of Retirement To Fight Isis

Mon Mar 14, 2016 9:04 am

Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 4):
This sort of fighting might very well be the most common threat environment in the 21st century.

Hence why I used the term 21st century threat environment. Clearly there are threats from the last century that will remain for a long period of time but it is likely that at some point the US will enter a conflict where the adversary is not fighting with weapons from the Vietnam war.

Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 4):
They're so caught up in making ludicrous high tech, ridiculously expensive systems, they forget that battle is often a street fight where OV-10/A-10 type weapons can be more useful than $100 million toys they're afraid to risk.

Don't misunderstand the article. These new expensive system are significantly more capable and more precise in their weapons employment than legacy systems such as the OV-10/A-10. The different is purely the cost of use and employment.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 5):
It turns out fighting irregular goons is what the US military is doing in the 21st century. 70 years ago, we reached the limits of total war. While we keep those doomsday tools handy just in case, total war is not what what the US military does anymore. That was 20th century warfare.

There have been quite a few studies and assessments in the last few years indicating that conflict will again swing from insurgency back to near peer as automation, production and artificial intelligence mature. Irrespective of what the US is facing today, the US military is charged with preparing for and winning a near peer conflict. Until that requirement changes, it would be remiss of them to not continue developing and maturing technology and systems that maintain their current capability advantage.
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: OV-10s Brought Out Of Retirement To Fight Isis

Mon Mar 14, 2016 12:18 pm

Quoting Ozair (Reply 3):
It does make sense. The purpose of the OV-10 is to locate and designate targets for other aircraft. The A-10 is just one of the aircraft that an OV-10 will find targets for.

The A-10 proved to be able to do the OV-10's job in Gulf 1, and was pretty quickly siezed as an excuse to take the OV-10 out of service.

My personal thought is this is as much about trying to get funds for the COIN program as any actual need in the theater. Replacing a worn out aircraft type in current service with a justified role is much easier than convincing Congress you need some "obsolete" planes for an "obsolete" job you stopped doing 20 years ago. So dust off some old planes, get them doing their old job... wait a bit... Get money for new aircraft to replace them.
 
RetiredWeasel
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RE: OV-10s Brought Out Of Retirement To Fight Isis

Mon Mar 14, 2016 1:23 pm

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 8):
The A-10 proved to be able to do the OV-10's job in Gulf 1, and was pretty quickly siezed as an excuse to take the OV-10 out of service.

Your right about the AF side of the house as they didn't deploy the few OV-10s they still had since the OA-10s were already operational. The Marines deployed a few and in the first week of the war, promptly had 2 shot down (one with a highly publicized POW story of the pilot). They quickly moved their's out of the theater.

Rejuvenating the Bronco is some dream by a few diehard old timers. They'd have to build new ones. Except for maybe a dozen scattered here and there with a few federal agencies, there are NONE in any boneyard. They were all given to the Philippines and various other third world countries. These two from the Naval Weapons Center were a one time customized version for some special forces missions.
 
Pyrex
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RE: OV-10s Brought Out Of Retirement To Fight Isis

Tue Mar 15, 2016 12:14 pm

If the objective is to test out a low cost CAS platform why not just divert for a few months some of the Tucanos they are giving away to Afghanistan, or the T-6s they are giving away to Iraq? Much better systems, probably easier to fly and maintain (since they are currently being built in the U.S. and in use by allied forces, did not spend the better part of the last two decades in a boneyard) and are a much better representation of what you would be able to get your hands on if the experiment was successful and you decided to take it to the next step and make it operational.

I still fail to see what the Bronco can do that you cannot do with a combination of Kiowa Warriors and Apaches for a cost probably not that much different, though... much more versatile platforms, too.
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
Flaps
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RE: OV-10s Brought Out Of Retirement To Fight Isis

Tue Mar 15, 2016 4:44 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 10):
I still fail to see what the Bronco can do that you cannot do with a combination of Kiowa Warriors and Apaches for a cost probably not that much different, though... much more versatile platforms, too.

For starters:
1. Cost
2. Speed
3. Range
4. Loiter time
 
JohnM
Posts: 395
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RE: OV-10s Brought Out Of Retirement To Fight Isis

Tue Mar 15, 2016 5:31 pm

Quoting Flaps (Reply 11):
For starters:
1. Cost
2. Speed
3. Range
4. Loiter time

How many useable OV-10 airframes exist? Of that number how many are able to employ 30MM, hellfire, and rockets? Pretty sure the answer to the second question is zero. Add to the fact that todays AH-64 community is combat experienced, the system is mature, and there is a system in place to keep them fixed/ flying.

I personally think the OV-10 is a very cool aircraft, but the Apache is the king of hill, along with the A-10 for CAS.
 
Flaps
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RE: OV-10s Brought Out Of Retirement To Fight Isis

Tue Mar 15, 2016 7:49 pm

Quoting JohnM (Reply 12):
I personally think the OV-10 is a very cool aircraft, but the Apache is the king of hill, along with the A-10 for CAS.

I wouldn't argue your point for a second. There are however missions in that arena that are overkill for those systems. Been flying the wings and rotors off of everything we have over there. Anything that can lighten the load, extend service life or provide a breather for MRO on the critical systems is worth a look in my book. In any case I think its more of a proof of concept test project to justify a new light combat aircraft for the longer term. The US is swinging a lot of sledgehammers at mosquito's these days. That threat scenario shows no sign of abating anytime in the foreseeable future.

IMHO a UAV platform with a significant arms payload capability would be ideal as opposed to a manned aircraft.
 
JohnM
Posts: 395
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2001 12:35 pm

RE: OV-10s Brought Out Of Retirement To Fight Isis

Tue Mar 15, 2016 8:35 pm

Quoting Flaps (Reply 13):
There are however missions in that arena that are overkill for those systems

So true.
 
XT6Wagon
Posts: 2728
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:06 pm

RE: OV-10s Brought Out Of Retirement To Fight Isis

Tue Mar 15, 2016 10:40 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 10):

If the objective is to test out a low cost CAS platform why not just divert for a few months some of the Tucanos they are giving away to Afghanistan, or the T-6s they are giving away to Iraq?

The Tucano order was supposed to be 300 frames from what I read. Ended with only 30 paid for, so thats why they are giving them away. Not enough frames to be worth keeping.

Which is what I'm betting this OV-10 thing is about. Getting that big order back on track.
 
ThePointblank
Posts: 3428
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RE: OV-10s Brought Out Of Retirement To Fight Isis

Wed Mar 16, 2016 4:54 am

Quoting JohnM (Reply 12):
How many useable OV-10 airframes exist? Of that number how many are able to employ 30MM, hellfire, and rockets? Pretty sure the answer to the second question is zero. Add to the fact that todays AH-64 community is combat experienced, the system is mature, and there is a system in place to keep them fixed/ flying.

I personally think the OV-10 is a very cool aircraft, but the Apache is the king of hill, along with the A-10 for CAS.

I would argue that the reason why AH-64 community excels at CAS is not only because of their training, but also their situational awareness capabilities. The AH-64 carries a ton of sensors that allow it to see in low visibility conditions and identify friend from foe. That situational awareness, plus the ability to use precisely aim weapons at targets, is a significant factor in the capabilities of the AH-64 community.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: OV-10s Brought Out Of Retirement To Fight Isis

Thu Mar 17, 2016 4:22 pm

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 6):

One cannot predict the future. If you went back into the late 1970's and told everyone that the US would invade Iraq to liberate Kuwait, the Soviet Union would cease to exist, we would be bombing Yugoslavia twice, that the US would be attacked by Islamic terrorists, and we would be invading and occupying Afghanistan and Iraq, you would have been laughed out of the room.

The ukraine war caused Germany to rethink on military policies last year and to buy back 200 Leopard 2 tanks from the scrappers to be modified to newest standard, to equip two armoured battallions, which currently only exist on paper.
Before it was thought that the days of confrontations between conventiona armies with tanks and artillery would be over an future fighting ould only involve light, highly mobile forces in counter insurgency roles, and ha heavy equipment would not be needed anymore.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
washingtonflyer
Topic Author
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RE: OV-10s Brought Out Of Retirement To Fight Isis

Thu Mar 17, 2016 6:34 pm

Wonder if the Pucara is still produced...

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