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LAXintl
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US Approves P-8 Sale To UK

Sat Mar 26, 2016 1:08 am

The U.S. government has approved the sale of up to nine Boeing Co P-8A Poseidon maritime patrol planes to Britain in a deal valued at up to $3.2 billion, the U.S. Defense Department said Friday.

U.S. approves $3.2 billion sale of Boeing P-8A patrol planes to UK
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-boeing-uk-idUSKCN0WR1IR

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Max Q
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RE: US Approves P-8 Sale To UK

Sat Mar 26, 2016 3:02 am

Good thing, they are badly needed.


How soon will they be delivered ?
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bunumuring
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RE: US Approves P-8 Sale To UK

Sun Mar 27, 2016 1:13 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 1):
How soon will they be delivered ?

... and how 'dissimilar' will they be to the USN and RAAF Poseidons? and of course the IAF Neptunes...

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Ozair
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RE: US Approves P-8 Sale To UK

Mon Mar 28, 2016 2:28 am

Quoting bunumuring (Reply 2):
.. and how 'dissimilar' will they be to the USN and RAAF Poseidons? and of course the IAF Neptunes...

I'd expect the USN, UK and RAAF P-8s to be about as similar as you can get. The IAF likely is the next step below although the IAF Neptune has the MAD boom while the USN and RAAF versions won't. Interesting to see if the UK ones do?

The IAF contract was less, US$2.1 billion for eight aircraft, probably because they had some indigenous equipment they wanted to fit, including their own data-links and comms gear, and likely have different support and training requirements going forward.
 
angad84
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RE: US Approves P-8 Sale To UK

Mon Mar 28, 2016 1:19 pm

Quoting Ozair (Reply 3):
although the IAF Neptune has the MAD boom

And a 360-degree search radar under the belly, which none of the others have...

Cheers
A
 
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bikerthai
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RE: US Approves P-8 Sale To UK

Mon Mar 28, 2016 1:42 pm

Quoting Ozair (Reply 3):

I'd expect the USN, UK and RAAF P-8s to be about as similar as you can get.

As far as I know, they will only differ in the paint job.

Quoting Ozair (Reply 3):
The IAF contract was less, US$2.1 billion for eight aircraft, probably because they had some indigenous equipment they wanted to fit,

Along with that, the IAF was a direct commercial buy. Boeing makes more profit but the US Government does not get their cut. The UK buy will be a Government Military sale. The UK will be buying from the US Government so Uncle Sam will get his cut. However, the actual frames will be less expensive because of commonality (the frame will be the same) as the US navy P-8A. And best of all, the UK will get their frames much quicker.

The cost difference with the Indian P-8I may also include (or lack of) supporting/sustaining packages. Even if the Indian are following up with their order, they will not be getting their new frames as quickly because much has happened since their last delivery and any new Indian order will require some new Engineering. Where as the UK planes just need new exterior paint drawings.

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moo
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RE: US Approves P-8 Sale To UK

Mon Mar 28, 2016 3:52 pm

As I understand it, the RAF P-8's are going to be as close to stock as you can get, as the MoD want them delivered ASAP and they have no budget for additional costs resulting from integrating new systems, so its going to be whatever Boeing and the USN is allowed to sell us.

The lack of UK content on the airframes was brought up in Parliament recently, but no one was really willing to actually make an issue out of it - BAE will likely get some sort of maintenance contract, partnered with Boeing of course, to ease the pain.
 
Max Q
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RE: US Approves P-8 Sale To UK

Tue Mar 29, 2016 4:39 am

Quoting Ozair (Reply 3):
The IAF likely is the next step below although the IAF Neptune has the MAD boom while the USN and RAAF versions won't.

How significant / important is the MAD boom, all the older ASW platforms had it, why has it been deleted on all but the IAF aircraft ?
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RE: US Approves P-8 Sale To UK

Tue Mar 29, 2016 5:18 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 7):
How significant / important is the MAD boom, all the older ASW platforms had it, why has it been deleted on all but the IAF aircraft ?

My understanding is they aren't that significant anymore as many submarines have various levels of demagnetizing designed into them. Plus it also requires the aircraft to fly very close to the water and the submarine to be close to the water, which is much less likely to happen with modern submarines. And since the P-8 is supposed to spend most of its time at altitude covering large areas, a MAD boom just doesn't fit the intended mission profile.

Plus I expect modern sonabouys are a lot more capable than ones 40+ years ago. Giving less need to identify a target via magnetic detection.
 
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bikerthai
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RE: US Approves P-8 Sale To UK

Tue Mar 29, 2016 1:38 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 6):
As I understand it, the RAF P-8's are going to be as close to stock as you can get,

There is benefits to getting the same plane as the US Navy. As with the RAAF, if you get the same plane, you get the opportunity to get the same upgrade when the US gets their upgrade. The cost savings extends beyond the initial purchase.

These are some of the life-cycle costs advantage that the P-8A has over all other platforms, including the P-8I. Close friends and allies have their privileges.   

bt
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moo
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RE: US Approves P-8 Sale To UK

Tue Mar 29, 2016 1:50 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 9):
There is benefits to getting the same plane as the US Navy. As with the RAAF, if you get the same plane, you get the opportunity to get the same upgrade when the US gets their upgrade. The cost savings extends beyond the initial purchase.

These are some of the life-cycle costs advantage that the P-8A has over all other platforms, including the P-8I. Close friends and allies have their privileges.   

I completely agree, but ensuring the local economy benefits is also a political hot potato - it has already been raised in parliament that the RAF's future isn't looking great for home grown talent (US equipment for more than 60% of the total fleet, with doubts being raised on which way the Eurofighter replacement will go).
 
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bully707
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RE: US Approves P-8 Sale To UK

Wed Mar 30, 2016 11:58 am

Would have loved to see the P-8s in the German Navy as well...instead we went for the old P-3s the Dutch sold us...and laughed their butts off afterwards...

That P-8 plattform might be one hell of a deal when it comes to replacing the E-3 and E-8 fleet in the not too distant future.
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bikerthai
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RE: US Approves P-8 Sale To UK

Wed Mar 30, 2016 1:34 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 10):
I completely agree, but ensuring the local economy benefits is also a political hot potato -

I think there is one of two way to insure home grown work. Do a direct commercial sale for the P-8. You can write in the contract for industrial off-set. But then the cost of each frame goes up. (Maybe way up). And you have to wait one, maybe two years longer. The other way is to select a competitor and do the mod yourself. The cost goes up even more and you have to even longer.

It is a difficult position. Jobs for or undetected submarines near your coast . . . What would help is if your economy is not burden . . .

bt
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trex8
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RE: US Approves P-8 Sale To UK

Wed Mar 30, 2016 4:38 pm

The DSCA has started the ball rolling with notification to Congress of a possible sale. It would be unheard of for congress to veto it especially regardng the UK ( I think the only time Congress has ever disapproved a sale was when there were Turk/Greek disputes in the 70s/80s ongoing and initial Saudi F15 notification) and then the UK has to follow through. Given the Cameron government flip flops we'll have to see. Foreign Military Sales through the Pentagon as opposed to Direct Commercial Sales are a very profitable DoD operation. They float lots of the customers money in their own accounts besides "commissions".
 
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moo
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RE: US Approves P-8 Sale To UK

Thu Mar 31, 2016 9:26 am

Quoting trex8 (Reply 13):
Given the Cameron government flip flops we'll have to see.

And what military purchase have they flip flopped on, exactly? The F-35B/C decision? They didn't flip flop on that, they were forced to revert to the B because the previous Labour government had "silently" dropped the planned conversion capability to CATOBAR, meaning a F-35C purchase would have been significantly more expensive than it ever should have been (as it would have involved a significant amount of rework and redesign of systems which should have already had the ability designed in).

The P-8 purchase cannot be considered a flip flop on the cancellation of the Nimrod MRA4, as we will be receiving 9 P-8's for less money than we would have spent on 9 MRA4's, hence the reason for the cancellation in the first place.
 
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RE: US Approves P-8 Sale To UK

Thu Mar 31, 2016 1:26 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 14):
as we will be receiving 9 P-8's for less money than we would have spent on 9 MRA4's,

And if they spend a little more, they can get the JSTAR capabilities added to the P-8A, thus saving from having to buy another dedicated airframe. The frame being purchased will be ready to accept the mod kit for that capability.

bt
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trex8
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RE: US Approves P-8 Sale To UK

Thu Mar 31, 2016 3:37 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 14):
And what military purchase have they flip flopped on, exactly? The F-35B/C decision? They didn't flip flop on that, they were forced to revert to the B because the previous Labour government had "silently" dropped the planned conversion capability to CATOBAR, meaning a F-35C purchase would have been significantly more expensive than it ever should have been (as it would have involved a significant amount of rework and redesign of systems which should have already had the ability designed in).

Labour were in charge of the SDSR in 2010???? Amazing what power the Opposition has these days.
 
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RE: US Approves P-8 Sale To UK

Thu Mar 31, 2016 3:46 pm

Quoting trex8 (Reply 16):
Labour were in charge of the SDSR in 2010???? Amazing what power the Opposition has these days.

And what do you mean by that?

Cameron changing from the F-35B to the F-35C isn't a flip flop, because he never chose the B in the first place. Changing back from the C to the B was a forced decision because of the (in)actions of the previous government.
 
trex8
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RE: US Approves P-8 Sale To UK

Thu Mar 31, 2016 3:56 pm

I thought the change to C came in 2010 and so do others
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/uk-reverses-controversial-f-35-switch-371661/
 
Max Q
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RE: US Approves P-8 Sale To UK

Fri Apr 01, 2016 6:34 am

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 15):
And if they spend a little more, they can get the JSTAR capabilities added to the P-8A, thus saving from having to buy another dedicated airframe. The frame being purchased will be ready to accept the mod kit for that capability.

Is this a fact ?


Can the P8 accomplish the JSTAR role in addition to ASW ?
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angad84
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RE: US Approves P-8 Sale To UK

Fri Apr 01, 2016 7:21 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 19):
Can the P8 accomplish the JSTAR role in addition to ASW ?

Boeing's JSTARS replacement is P-8-based, and they have all the attachment, plumbing, wiring etc sorted on the belly already. It's just a matter of clipping the radar on (I say "just," but yeah...).

I suspect it'll be an either/or solution, but using the same airframe. Be pretty cool if you could have swing-role sea/land surveillance with organic strike capability in addition to being a C4ISTAR asset. The P-8A can use Mavericks and dumb bombs in addition to the Harpoon, so it's conceivable that it could do ASuW, ASW and good old precision (land) strike in the same mission if it was loaded up for a brawl.

Cheers
A

[Edited 2016-04-01 00:43:36]
 
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moo
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RE: US Approves P-8 Sale To UK

Fri Apr 01, 2016 11:08 am

Quoting trex8 (Reply 18):

I thought the change to C came in 2010 and so do others

At what point do I dispute that, or are you just not actually reading my posts?
 
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bikerthai
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RE: US Approves P-8 Sale To UK

Fri Apr 01, 2016 2:16 pm

Quoting angad84 (Reply 20):
It's just a matter of clipping the radar on (I say "just," but yeah...).

Yes, if you recall in the other thread, there was some flight test of a "rectangular-ish" pod under the belly of the plane. That pod was to simulate the ground search radar. In addition to attaching the pod, there are some mission equipment that need to be installed that would reduce the number of sonobuoys and launcher they can carry (not sure how many). Turn around for adding those equipment don't require a major mod as they are design to be installed prior to potential deployments.

Quoting angad84 (Reply 20):
Boeing's JSTARS replacement is P-8-based,

Not quite. The Air Force wants longer loiter time, so they are leaning toward a 737-700 based frames (with no bomb bay, not sure about the wing hard points) to reduce airframe structure weight. I believe they are also working on their own radar competition as opposed to using the one being developed for the Navy. Seem that they do not want their JSTARs to have strike capabilities as they have plenty of strike assets available when needed.

Word has it that if the Air Force was forced to take a P-8A, the cost would go down significantly. But the Air Force would not get a frame that meets all their wants and have extras that they don't want.

bt
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trex8
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RE: US Approves P-8 Sale To UK

Fri Apr 01, 2016 2:21 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 21):
At what point do I dispute that, or are you just not actually reading my posts?

It seems to me that the Cameron government stopped the B procurement, changed it to C and then 2 years later went back to B. Maybe some civil servant in Whitehall blindsided them, maybe they were even set up by Labour as they only had a few months to get the SDSR out after coming to power but Con-Lib were in charge and made the changes in 2010 and reversed it in 2012. By most peoples criteria thats a flip flop.
 
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moo
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RE: US Approves P-8 Sale To UK

Fri Apr 01, 2016 3:06 pm

Quoting trex8 (Reply 23):
It seems to me that the Cameron government stopped the B procurement, changed it to C and then 2 years later went back to B. Maybe some civil servant in Whitehall blindsided them, maybe they were even set up by Labour as they only had a few months to get the SDSR out after coming to power but Con-Lib were in charge and made the changes in 2010 and reversed it in 2012. By most peoples criteria thats a flip flop.

The first change from B to C cannot be considered a flip flop by the Cameron government because they never made the original B decision in the first place.

The switch back from the C to the B was not a voluntary decision, it was a forced decision after it was discovered that the previous Labour government had not been enforcing contract requirements allowing for an easy conversion from a STOVL platform to a CATOBAR one - the costs were dramatically more than the studies available to the 2010 SDSR were.

So no, I don't consider the reversion to be a flip flop either.
 
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Mortyman
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RE: US Approves P-8 Sale To UK

Mon Apr 04, 2016 4:27 pm

Congratulations to the UK on this P8 order. I hope that the Norwegian government will follow and order it too ... But I'm afraid they are not that smart ... 
 
L-188
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RE: US Approves P-8 Sale To UK

Mon Apr 04, 2016 8:17 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 22):
Not quite. The Air Force wants longer loiter time, so they are leaning toward a 737-700 based frames (with no bomb bay, not sure about the wing hard points) to reduce airframe structure weight. I believe they are also working on their own radar competition as opposed to using the one being developed for the Navy. Seem that they do not want their JSTARs to have strike capabilities as they have plenty of strike assets available when needed.

Word has it that if the Air Force was forced to take a P-8A, the cost would go down significantly. But the Air Force would not get a frame that meets all their wants and have extras that they don't want.

The US Navy already has commercial and BBJ style 737's in service so it probably doesn't make a lot of sense to use the P-8 airframe for the replacement.


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bunumuring
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RE: US Approves P-8 Sale To UK

Sat Apr 09, 2016 10:29 pm

Hey guys,
Is 9 the total planned fleet of P-8s for the UK, or just an initial order? Also, where are they planned to be based?
Cheers,
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qcpilotxf
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RE: US Approves P-8 Sale To UK

Sun Apr 10, 2016 12:36 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 26):
The US Navy already has commercial and BBJ style 737's in service so it probably doesn't make a lot of sense to use the P-8 airframe for the replacement.

There is 20-30 C-40s floating around between the USN, USAF, and the Guard. All are based upon (or are) BBJ1s
 
ThePointblank
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RE: US Approves P-8 Sale To UK

Mon Apr 11, 2016 7:44 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 26):

The US Navy already has commercial and BBJ style 737's in service so it probably doesn't make a lot of sense to use the P-8 airframe for the replacement.

The USAF also operates the Bombardier Global Express as the E-11A BACN, which has also carried the High-Altitude Lidar Operational Experiment payload. Furthermore, the US government also operates Gulfstream V's as VIP aircraft. That's why in their JSTARS tender, they've opened up the tender to allow non-US made aircraft as well as the green airframe.

Most notably, the BBJ, Global Express and the Gulfstream V all have about the same range, but both of the business jets have a significant maximum altitude advantage over the BBJ; about a extra 10,000ft to 51,000ft. Standard cruise altitude is also higher as well.
 
jumpjet
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RE: US Approves P-8 Sale To UK

Wed Apr 13, 2016 1:24 pm

Quoting bunumuring (Reply 27):
Is 9 the total planned fleet of P-8s for the UK, or just an initial order? Also, where are they planned to be based?

I understand it's going to be RAF Lossiemouth in northern Scotland.

I'm fairly sure there are already RAF and RN crews flying P-8s seconded to the USN. Can anyone confirm this? I learnt this when talking to a RN crew member of the USN P-8 at RIAT last July.
 
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moo
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RE: US Approves P-8 Sale To UK

Wed Apr 13, 2016 2:46 pm

Quoting jumpjet (Reply 30):
Can anyone confirm this?

Yes.

Quote:

There are no fewer than 20 RAF aircrew flying on P-8s now in Project Seed Corn, 10 with operational squadrons at NAS Jacksonville, Florida, and 10 with test squadron VX-1 at NAS Patuxent River in Maryland, whose aircraft is here.
http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-ne...ay-have-inside-track-uk-eventually

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...seedcorn39-maritime-patrol-368936/

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...enewed-for-a-further-three-414774/

A number of them were part of the air crew which won the 2014 Fleet Challenge ASW competition, flying a P-8A of the Patrol Squadron (VP) 30.

http://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=80308
 
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bikerthai
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RE: US Approves P-8 Sale To UK

Thu Apr 21, 2016 9:03 pm

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 25):
I hope that the Norwegian government will follow and order it too ... But I'm afraid they are not that smart ...

  

bt
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bikerthai
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RE: US Approves P-8 Sale To UK

Fri Apr 22, 2016 2:39 pm

Quoting bunumuring (Reply 27):
Is 9 the total planned fleet of P-8s for the UK, or just an initial order?

From the Motley Fool, it's an initial order.

As an aside . . .

Australia first P-8A is being painted. Should see it on the Renton flight line soon if it's not there already.

bt
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Kiwirob
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RE: US Approves P-8 Sale To UK

Sat Apr 23, 2016 4:19 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 33):

From the Motley Fool, it's an initial order.



I wouldn't be surprised if 9 was the total, they only planned to order 9 MRA4 Nimrods.
 
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JetBuddy
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RE: US Approves P-8 Sale To UK

Sat Apr 23, 2016 5:53 pm

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 25):
Congratulations to the UK on this P8 order. I hope that the Norwegian government will follow and order it too ... But I'm afraid they are not that smart ... 


If they decide to order the P-8, it's got to have anti-submarine warfare capability. Right now the suggestion is to order without it to save money. Which everyone agrees is a stupid idea, since the 338 squadron is one of the best in the world at submarine hunting.. and it's one of Norway's primary tasks as a NATO member.
 
ThePointblank
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RE: US Approves P-8 Sale To UK

Sun Apr 24, 2016 3:00 am

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 35):
If they decide to order the P-8, it's got to have anti-submarine warfare capability. Right now the suggestion is to order without it to save money. Which everyone agrees is a stupid idea, since the 338 squadron is one of the best in the world at submarine hunting.. and it's one of Norway's primary tasks as a NATO member.

It would really depend on Norway's needs. If the intent if a new MPA is to patrol Norway's EEZ for shipping and submarines, perhaps a different, smaller platform would be more appropriate. If the Norwegians intend on patrolling longer distances, the P-8 would be the better option.
 
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RE: US Approves P-8 Sale To UK

Sun Apr 24, 2016 6:41 pm

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 36):
It would really depend on Norway's needs. If the intent if a new MPA is to patrol Norway's EEZ for shipping and submarines, perhaps a different, smaller platform would be more appropriate. If the Norwegians intend on patrolling longer distances, the P-8 would be the better option.


We need a platform that can patrol all of the Norwegian ocean territories, not just the economic zones. The areas needing patrolling are enormous. Norway's primary role as a NATO country is to detect and if needed, attack Russian submarines leaving the Northern sub bases. Norway needs to maintain and build upon today's capabilities with regards to maritime aircraft as well as submarines.

http://www.barentswatch.no/contentas...29/norgesmaritimegrenserflater.jpg

[Edited 2016-04-24 11:43:35]
 
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kanban
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RE: US Approves P-8 Sale To UK

Sun Apr 24, 2016 7:43 pm

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 37):

Maybe you should get the Swedes to buy them and lease time on them
 
angad84
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RE: US Approves P-8 Sale To UK

Mon Apr 25, 2016 10:22 am

Quoting kanban (Reply 38):
Maybe you should get the Swedes to buy them and lease time on them

The Swedes would probably want to build a fleet of their own Saab MSA with a bizjet platform...

Cheers
A
 
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bikerthai
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RE: US Approves P-8 Sale To UK

Mon Apr 25, 2016 1:09 pm

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 35):
If they decide to order the P-8, it's got to have anti-submarine warfare capability. Right now the suggestion is to order without it to save money.

You must mean maritime patrol aircraft as opposed to P-8. If you buy the P-8A, you get the acoustics suite along with the bomb bay. You can not buy a P-8 without anti-submarine capabilities. If you want to buy a P-8A without the acoustics suite, it will cost you more up-front to engineer the system out. It's like buying a Lexus and have the local shop remove the stereo system without putting a new one in. Might as well buy a Scion.



bt
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JetBuddy
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RE: US Approves P-8 Sale To UK

Wed May 04, 2016 11:45 pm

Quoting kanban (Reply 38):
Maybe you should get the Swedes to buy them and lease time on them

The Swedes are the last I'd trust with defending Norway. They're not NATO members or Norway allies, their Air Force's response times are ridiculus, and they're reducing their military capabilities at an alarming rate. I have zero faith that they can defend their own country, let alone Norway. They have skilled personell, but their military is underfunded and neglected. In addition to this, their area of interest is the Baltic Sea, not the Norwegian Sea and Barents Sea. I know you're talking about wet leasing or dry leasing the aircraft, but all of this still matters. If anything, they'd most likely be leased from the US. The squadron operating the Royal Norwegian Air Force P-3 Orions today are known for being some of the best submarine hunters in the world, and they know the territory like their own back yard. These are skills that would get lost if they invested in new aircraft without anti-submarine warfare capability. (Hopefully I didn't offend any Swedes.)

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 40):
You must mean maritime patrol aircraft as opposed to P-8.

I'm not sure what aircraft they're thinking of buying. They mentioned maritime survaillance aircraft without anti-submarine warfare capability, as well as drones as a solution when the P-3 Orions get phased out. Regardless if what aircraft they're considering, investing in new planes without this capability is complete lunacy. I remain optimistic that we'll end up buying P-8s in the end.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: US Approves P-8 Sale To UK

Tue Jul 12, 2016 10:31 am

And it's now official.

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defens ... /86935956/

The United Kingdom has officially confirmed a plan to purchase nine P-8A maritime surveillance aircraft, worth around 3 billion pounds, while also announcing a $2.3 billion deal to secure 50 AH-64E Apache helicopters.

Both sales come via Foreign Military Sales (FMS) agreements with the US government, and both products come from Boeing – a notable way to kick off the Farnborough International Airshow, where the company is celebrating its centennial.


First P-8A deliveries to RAF in April 2019, all 9 aircraft to be delivered by 2022.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
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FabDiva
Posts: 154
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Re: US Approves P-8 Sale To UK

Wed Jul 13, 2016 5:12 pm

Interesting too that the Apaches are coming direct from Boeing, not being locally built by AugustaWestland
 
Ozair
Posts: 4178
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: US Approves P-8 Sale To UK

Wed Jul 13, 2016 10:35 pm

Good news on the P-8s. It will be interesting to see future ASW competitions when a large number of ASW operators will have P-8s and therefore operator proficiency may be the distinguishing factor.

FabDiva wrote:
Interesting too that the Apaches are coming direct from Boeing, not being locally built by AugustaWestland

Very interesting as the original WAH-64s had RR engines. I haven't seen anything to say whether the AH-64Es for the UK will be modded with RR engines or retain the GE T700s.

Also the US will be re-manufacturing a large number of D variants to E while it appears that the UK are buying new build airframes.
 
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moo
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Re: US Approves P-8 Sale To UK

Thu Jul 14, 2016 11:57 am

Ozair wrote:
Good news on the P-8s. It will be interesting to see future ASW competitions when a large number of ASW operators will have P-8s and therefore operator proficiency may be the distinguishing factor.


Thats already happened:

moo wrote:
A number of them were part of the air crew which won the 2014 Fleet Challenge ASW competition, flying a P-8A of the Patrol Squadron (VP) 30.

http://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=80308
 
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Elshad
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Re: US Approves P-8 Sale To UK

Wed May 08, 2019 11:29 am

 
strfyr51
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Re: RE: US Approves P-8 Sale To UK

Thu May 09, 2019 11:43 pm

ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:
Quoting Max Q (Reply 7): How significant / important is the MAD boom, all the older ASW platforms had it, why has it been deleted on all but the IAF aircraft ?
My understanding is they aren't that significant anymore as many submarines have various levels of demagnetizing designed into them. Plus it also requires the aircraft to fly very close to the water and the submarine to be close to the water, which is much less likely to happen with modern submarines. And since the P-8 is supposed to spend most of its time at altitude covering large areas, a MAD boom just doesn't fit the intended mission profile.

Plus I expect modern sonabouys a lot more capable than ones 40+ years ago. Giving less need to identify a target via magnetic detection.

the MAD used in final attack criteria where when you had it down to 200 yards down doppler? That sub was as dead as you waned it to be. Though as a flight crew member? I've never dropped a torpedo to kill a Russian Submarine even though I've hunted them. It would have been an act of war to do so. But we darn sure Practiced doing it. and the soviet sub crews knew it!! Especially the Yankee class boats we hunted off the East coast running the Canyons and the one 200 Miles off of the Farralon Islands we'd go out and beat tizzy and launched the ready alert on Easter Sunday no less, Instead of Ham and potato salad? We ate cold fried chicken and we hassled them so they might have known we were "pissed" for missing Easter Sunday supper.. On the east coast they did it on Christmas Eve where we flew out of Brunswick Maine and had to land at Jacksonville FL 14 hours later because it was a Nor'Easter Blizzard at Maine we didn't get closer than NAS Willow Grove for 3 Days, Luckily? I'm from Philadelphia so I took the crew home with me to have s proper holiday supper and we cleared the leftovers too!!
 
strfyr51
Posts: 3895
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: RE: US Approves P-8 Sale To UK

Thu May 09, 2019 11:57 pm

ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:
Quoting Max Q (Reply 7): How significant / important is the MAD boom, all the older ASW platforms had it, why has it been deleted on all but the IAF aircraft ?
My understanding is they aren't that significant anymore as many submarines have various levels of demagnetizing designed into them. Plus it also requires the aircraft to fly very close to the water and the submarine to be close to the water, which is much less likely to happen with modern submarines. And since the P-8 is supposed to spewould put yound most of its time at altitude covering large areas, a MAD boom just doesn't fit the intended mission profile.

Plus I expect modern sonabouys are a lot more capable than ones 40+ years ago. Giving less need to identify a target via magnetic detection.

It's called De-gaussing and that's not what the MAD Does, It detects the Earth's magnetic flux lines and it can tell that they're being disturbed and where as a submarine is crossing them and disturbing them. It doesn't need to detect the sub. Only where it's going. But working the MAD required you to be pretty low which is stressful in itself. Flying around at 188 feet? Ain't my idea of FUN!! Especially if we have Difar Bouys that can just 'ping' the Boat to gain Attack Criteria, Hell! do we still even use the B57 Thermonuclear Depth Bomb anymore? By Now? We've got to have something better than that Behemoth!!
 
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7BOEING7
Posts: 3039
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Re: RE: US Approves P-8 Sale To UK

Fri May 10, 2019 12:15 am

strfyr51 wrote:
ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:
Quoting Max Q (Reply 7): How significant / important is the MAD boom, all the older ASW platforms had it, why has it been deleted on all but the IAF aircraft ?
My understanding is they aren't that significant anymore as many submarines have various levels of demagnetizing designed into them. Plus it also requires the aircraft to fly very close to the water and the submarine to be close to the water, which is much less likely to happen with modern submarines. And since the P-8 is supposed to spewould put yound most of its time at altitude covering large areas, a MAD boom just doesn't fit the intended mission profile.

Plus I expect modern sonabouys are a lot more capable than ones 40+ years ago. Giving less need to identify a target via magnetic detection.

It's called De-gaussing and that's not what the MAD Does, It detects the Earth's magnetic flux lines and it can tell that they're being disturbed and where as a submarine is crossing them and disturbing them. It doesn't need to detect the sub. Only where it's going. But working the MAD required you to be pretty low which is stressful in itself. Flying around at 188 feet? Ain't my idea of FUN!! Especially if we have Difar Bouys that can just 'ping' the Boat to gain Attack Criteria, Hell! do we still even use the B57 Thermonuclear Depth Bomb anymore? By Now? We've got to have something better than that Behemoth!!


Nothing like a cruising at 200 feet over the South China Sea or the IO on calm blue sky day -- loved it. The poor P-8 guys won't get to do that much.

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