Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
marktci
Topic Author
Posts: 199
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2009 4:05 am

Report: Canada To Buy "interim" Super Hornets

Mon Jun 06, 2016 6:29 pm

According to a report in the National Post, it looks as though the Trudeau government is looking to buy an undetermined quantity of Super Hornets to essentially buy some time on its fighter replacement decision (i.e., to punt the F-35 decision into the future a few years).

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/ca...inal-decision-on-f-35s-sources-say
 
Oroka
Posts: 1138
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2006 4:37 am

RE: Report: Canada To Buy "interim" Super Hornets

Mon Jun 06, 2016 7:05 pm

If they did the same thing as Australia and got a handful, it would create some breathing room for the CF-18A/B, and still allow for the F-35 when prices finally hit bottom and is not a political cop out seeing how Trudeau promised to can the F-35.
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
Posts: 1139
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:20 am

RE: Report: Canada To Buy "interim" Super Hornets

Mon Jun 06, 2016 10:37 pm

They could even do the Aussie thing of having them plumbed to be turned into Growlers later on.
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Report: Canada To Buy "interim" Super Hornets

Tue Jun 07, 2016 4:05 am

I agree,

This is just a face saving move by the boy prime minister to cover his campaign promises at the expense of Canada's national security
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 10327
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

RE: Report: Canada To Buy "interim" Super Hornets

Tue Jun 07, 2016 4:50 am

Not the worst idea. 2 engines and will be a viable QRA asset for decades.
 
ThePointblank
Posts: 3791
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:39 pm

RE: Report: Canada To Buy "interim" Super Hornets

Tue Jun 07, 2016 5:51 am

Problem is that LM can also deliver F-35's just as quickly, if not quicker. Government contracting laws stipulate that except for a select few situations, purchases must be publicly tendered. An interim Super Hornet purchase meets none of those exceptions to the law.
 
Ozair
Posts: 5582
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

RE: Report: Canada To Buy "interim" Super Hornets

Tue Jun 07, 2016 6:46 am

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 5):
Problem is that LM can also deliver F-35's just as quickly, if not quicker.

The may be able to deliver airframes quicker but they won't be able to train the number of pilots/maintainers available in the time required. Alternatively, the SH offers Canada the ability to convert current aircrew across with only 5 rides and allows them to manage the classic fleet until later in the 2020s before another fighter jet, almost certainly the F-35 by that time, is purchased to replace the entire fleet.

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 5):
Government contracting laws stipulate that except for a select few situations, purchases must be publicly tendered. An interim Super Hornet purchase meets none of those exceptions to the law.

Who is going to protest? I can't see LM doing that as this plays into their hands for later F-35 deliveries given the Canadians won't have any other viable option come 2025.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 3):

I agree,

This is just a face saving move by the boy prime minister to cover his campaign promises at the expense of Canada's national security

Agree completely but frankly rather savy. They were already going to kick the replacement fighter purchase to 2022, this gives them another four years to spend up big before having to replace the Hornet fleet.
 
ThePointblank
Posts: 3791
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:39 pm

RE: Report: Canada To Buy "interim" Super Hornets

Tue Jun 07, 2016 7:54 am

Quoting Ozair (Reply 6):
The may be able to deliver airframes quicker but they won't be able to train the number of pilots/maintainers available in the time required. Alternatively, the SH offers Canada the ability to convert current aircrew across with only 5 rides and allows them to manage the classic fleet until later in the 2020s before another fighter jet, almost certainly the F-35 by that time, is purchased to replace the entire fleet.

The RCAF in the past has already rejected a mixed fleet on the basis that it actually lowers capabilities and increases costs.

And while the Super Hornet and Hornet are fairly similar to fly, everything else under the hood are completely different. Current production Super Hornets and our CF-18's have very little in common in terms of parts and maintenance practices.

Quoting Ozair (Reply 6):
Who is going to protest? I can't see LM doing that as this plays into their hands for later F-35 deliveries given the Canadians won't have any other viable option come 2025.

Any other potential bidder. Under Canadian government procurement law (of which I am intimately familiar with), the government cannot purchase equipment unless it falls under a number of very narrowly defined exceptions. The one that I believe the government would try to use would be the unforeseen situation of urgency, of which this isn't (everyone, including their dog knew the CF-18's were getting up there in age).

Of note, a sole source F-35 WOULD actually meet government procurement law as it would be purchased under a international cooperation agreement...

Quoting Ozair (Reply 6):

Agree completely but frankly rather savy. They were already going to kick the replacement fighter purchase to 2022, this gives them another four years to spend up big before having to replace the Hornet fleet.

Not really. There's grounds for a lawsuit here, plus Canada would loose contracts on F-35 related work... and it's more than likely that this government would actually not buy a new fighter in the end!
 
Oroka
Posts: 1138
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2006 4:37 am

RE: Report: Canada To Buy "interim" Super Hornets

Tue Jun 07, 2016 12:14 pm

Id be okay seeing CF-18E/Fs for a few years until the CF-35 shows up! Wire them as growlers, RCAF has a new capacity in a few years. Paint one growler up like the 'electric voodoo'.
 
j.mo
Posts: 654
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2002 12:29 am

RE: Report: Canada To Buy "interim" Super Hornets

Tue Jun 07, 2016 2:56 pm

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 5):
Problem is that LM can also deliver F-35's just as quickly, if not quicker.

Except Super Hornets actually work now. Talking with some F-22 pilots and they agree that it will eventually BE a good airplane, but it isn't a good airplane today.
 
Sooner787
Posts: 2857
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:44 am

RE: Report: Canada To Buy "interim" Super Hornets

Tue Jun 07, 2016 4:08 pm

Quoting Oroka (Reply 8):
Id be okay seeing CF-18E/Fs for a few years until the CF-35 shows up! Wire them as growlers, RCAF has a new capacity in a few years. Paint one growler up like the 'electric voodoo'.

Smart move by the Canadians. Heck, it'll probably be another decade before
all the bugs are worked out of the F-35's.. Let some other Air Force deal with those
headaches
 
User avatar
kanban
Posts: 4040
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 1:00 am

RE: Report: Canada To Buy "interim" Super Hornets

Tue Jun 07, 2016 4:51 pm

Quoting Sooner787 (Reply 10):

Plus it will give LM time to figure out the bi-lingual signage and placarding      
 
tjh8402
Posts: 957
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:20 am

RE: Report: Canada To Buy "interim" Super Hornets

Wed Jun 08, 2016 1:56 am

As much as I would like to see our friends to the North continue to support our industry, I have to ask why the Saab Gripen isn't a top consideration for this, especially since the Canada don't seem terribly troubled by the F-35 being single engined. It's about the same price as a Super Hornet, and far more suited to Canada's mission. Compared to the SH (and in some cases, the F-35), it's got longer legs, a very powerful radar, the ability to supercruise, higher ceiling, and now the ability to deploy the long range A2A MBDA Meteor missile. This would seem to make it the perfect aircraft for defending and patrolling Canada's vast expanses.
 
ThePointblank
Posts: 3791
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:39 pm

RE: Report: Canada To Buy "interim" Super Hornets

Wed Jun 08, 2016 1:57 am

Quoting Oroka (Reply 8):
Wire them as growlers, RCAF has a new capacity in a few years.

Except the AN/ALQ-99 jamming pods are EXTREMELY expensive... and the USN had to sell a number of USN pods to Australia to meet their needs. I'm not so certain the USN wants to dip into their inventory to sell more AN/ALQ-99 pods...



Quoting Sooner787 (Reply 10):
Smart move by the Canadians. Heck, it'll probably be another decade before
all the bugs are worked out of the F-35's.. Let some other Air Force deal with those
headaches

Except when we bough the CF-18's, they were a developmental aircraft as well. Canada was the first international customer of the F/A-18, and our deliveries were from the earlier lots. Canada is more than comfortable buying a developmental aircraft that meets its needs.
 
Oroka
Posts: 1138
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2006 4:37 am

RE: Report: Canada To Buy "interim" Super Hornets

Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:00 pm

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 13):
Except the AN/ALQ-99 jamming pods are EXTREMELY expensive... and the USN had to sell a number of USN pods to Australia to meet their needs. I'm not so certain the USN wants to dip into their inventory to sell more AN/ALQ-99 pods...

Isnt there a NG jammer in development? Once that is getting fielded by the USN, the RCAF can pick up some discount second hand jammers (lol). Atleast they would have some utility later. Perhaps convert a smaller portion of the order to Growlers, and the USN would take the remaining super bugs to supplement their fleet.

Quoting tjh8402 (Reply 12):
As much as I would like to see our friends to the North continue to support our industry

I would like to think that it is simply because we are neighbours and close trade partners. The Super Hornets are the most suitable as an 'interim' jet as conversion is a lot simpler than taking a completely new design from a different manufacturer, and we can probably have the first jets in early 2017. I suspect that if this purchase was to be a permanent solution the the CF-18A/B, and the F-35 was not an option, the feds would have gone with the Eurofighter.

IIRC, the last non American fighter we bought was the CF-100 Canuck made by Avro Canada (yes, I know we license produced a lot of our fighters).
 
LMP737
Posts: 6249
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

RE: Report: Canada To Buy "interim" Super Hornets

Thu Jun 09, 2016 3:52 am

Quoting Oroka (Reply 14):
Isnt there a NG jammer in development? Once that is getting fielded by the USN, the RCAF can pick up some discount second hand jammers (lol). Atleast they would have some utility later. Perhaps convert a smaller portion of the order to Growlers, and the USN would take the remaining super bugs to supplement their fleet.

Yes there is.

http://www.raytheon.com/capabilities/products/ngj/
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
ThePointblank
Posts: 3791
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:39 pm

RE: Report: Canada To Buy "interim" Super Hornets

Sat Jun 11, 2016 2:26 am

Quoting Oroka (Reply 14):
Isnt there a NG jammer in development? Once that is getting fielded by the USN, the RCAF can pick up some discount second hand jammers (lol). Atleast they would have some utility later. Perhaps convert a smaller portion of the order to Growlers, and the USN would take the remaining super bugs to supplement their fleet.

The AN/ALQ-99 is a very old legacy jammer pod; there's been reported issues with reliability and have been noted to be hard to maintain due to their analog nature.

Remember, EA-18G's are usually equipped with 3 pods; 2 mid band pods and 1 low band pod; the low band pod is actually still in production as it was recently modernized. The mid band pods are the ones in most dire need of replacement due to the ongoing reliability and serviceability issues.
 
Oroka
Posts: 1138
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2006 4:37 am

RE: Report: Canada To Buy "interim" Super Hornets

Sat Jun 11, 2016 2:56 am

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 16):
Remember, EA-18G's are usually equipped with 3 pods; 2 mid band pods and 1 low band pod; the low band pod is actually still in production as it was recently modernized. The mid band pods are the ones in most dire need of replacement due to the ongoing reliability and serviceability issues.

Still better than the jammers the RCAF uses now.
 
Ozair
Posts: 5582
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: Report: Canada To Buy

Wed Jul 06, 2016 10:30 pm

The Canadian fighter replacement saga continues...

The long road to replacing the Air Force’s aging fighter jets took another turn Wednesday, as the Liberal government announced it will consult with industry to determine the best new aircraft for Canada.

The move, announced by Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan in a speech to industry representatives, comes after reports last month that the Liberals were considering buying Boeing Super Hornet fighter jets without a competition.


Only half of Canada's CF-18s can fly at a given time: Sajjan (CP Video)
Sajjan said no decision on a new fighter has been made. Rather, officials from National Defence and other federal departments will sit down with fighter jet manufacturers through the summer to determine what they can offer.

“Officials will seek up-to-date information from leading manufacturers on key issues, including cost, economic benefits for Canada, and their ability to deliver planes quickly,” he said. “That information will inform a decision on a procurement path in the coming months.”

The government also intends to consult with allies about their experiences using various aircraft.

It’s not the first time the government has held such consultations. The Conservatives launched a similar exercise in December 2012 as it pressed pause on its plans to purchase the F-35 stealth fighter.

Those consultations, which were overseen by an independent panel, included a fulsome assessment of what Canada needs in a new fighter jet, and what options were available. The final report, released in December 2014, came out favourably for the F-35.

Critics, however, said such consultations could not replace an open competition as there was no way to fully test each company’s claims.

Sajjan did not say whether there will be any independent oversight over the consultations. He also refused to say whether the Liberal government still intends to hold a fighter jet competition, as it promised during last year’s election campaign.

“No decision has been made, and right now myself and my department are working diligently to making sure that we have all the necessary information so that a decision can be made to move forward,” he told reporters before his speech to industry representatives.

The minister also didn’t say when an actual decision on a new fighter will be made.

However, Sajjan did emphasize the need to replace the Royal Canadian Air Force’s 77 CF-18s quickly. Only about half the fleet is available for operations at any given time, he said, which is not enough to meet Canada’s commitments to NATO and North American defence.

“Today, the number of mission-ready aircraft we can deploy on an average day is actually less than the number of planes we are committed to have ready,” he said. “The capability gap will get worse in the years ahead as CF-18s must be taken out of service.”

Critics have previously questioned such assertions, pointing to Air Force commander Lt.-Gen. Michael Hood’s testimony before the Commons defence committee in April as proof the Liberals have manufactured a crisis.

Hood said the CF-18 fleet should be able to operate through 2025 thanks to a $500-million upgrade ordered by the Conservatives in 2014. Twenty-six out of the 77 fighters have already undergone structural work to fly through the mid-2020s, and electronic upgrades are planned.

Sajjan, however, said even with the upgrades, Canada will be hard-pressed in a few years just to defend North America with the U.S. unless new aircraft are delivered. At the same time, the shortage means Canada isn’t able to contribute to other, non-NATO missions.

The Liberals promised during last year’s election that they would hold an open competition to replace the CF-18s. But they also promised not to buy the F-35. This created a potential legal situation if the government was seen to discriminate against the stealth fighter.

The F-35 has previously won competitions in South Korea, Japan and Denmark.


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/liberals-launching-new-round-of-consultations-on-fighter-jets/article30765717/

The Liberal Government can't seem to make a decision and if after the new round of industry consultations the F-35 is again the preferred option what will they do?
 
ThePointblank
Posts: 3791
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:39 pm

Re: Report: Canada To Buy

Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:29 am

It appears the Liberals have fallen in old habits; ask the question repeatedly until hopefully, the answer changes.

And by the time the Liberals finish with their 'consultations' and get around to actually buying anything, there won't be many options on the table; Super Hornet's production line is winding down now, and so will Eurofighter and Rafale. Remember it takes about 2 years to get long term lead items ordered and secured for something like a fighter jet, so if we follow the typical government timeline, that means the order will come in 2017-2018, with potential first deliveries in 2020. Add in an additional 2 years to get full operational capability as well.
 
Ozair
Posts: 5582
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: Report: Canada To Buy

Thu Jul 21, 2016 6:58 am

More fun and games form the Liberals with regards to the classic Hornet replacement.

VICTORIA, British Columbia — The Canadian government has issued a request for information from aerospace firms about the types of fighter aircraft they could provide, a signal that an earlier proposal to acquire Boeing Super Hornet jets on an interim basis is likely dead.

When the Super Hornet proposal first surfaced in early June, Lockheed Martin launched an aggressive lobbying and media campaign to warn that F-35 work being done by Canadian firms would be put in jeopardy if the Canadian government proceeded with such a move.

Government officials have not raised the proposal since, and companies have now been asked to provide the initial data on their aircraft by July 29.

The Department of National Defence plans to rewrite its requirements for a new fighter jet, said Harjit Sajjan, the defence minister for the Liberal Party government.

Sajjan and other Liberal government officials have said the existing requirements, developed by the previous Conservative Party government, are geared to favor the F-35.

At the same time, Sajjan has said he wants an open competition to replace Canada’s aging CF-18 fighter jets.

Lockheed Martin is responding to the Canadian government’s request for information about its fighter jet, a company spokesperson confirmed.

Boeing is responding with information about the Super Hornet. Other potential contenders include the Eurofighter Typhoon, the Dassault Rafale, and Saab’s Gripen.

Sajjan said because of the age of the CF-18s, Canada is facing a fighter jet capability gap in fulfilling its NORAD and NATO commitments. “It’s the reason why we have taken this approach to gather officials together from the various departments, get the necessary information so that we can make a better decision on the process we’re going to take to procure fighter jets,” he explained. “There is an urgency and hence why we’re moving forward on this very quickly.”

Sajjan said he didn’t have a timeframe when the replacement project would proceed. “It all depends on a lot of the information that we do collect, but it is going to be months, not years, definitely, because of the urgency for this,” he said.

Liberal Prime Minister Justin Trudeau came to power last fall, pledging not to purchase the F-35, an aircraft he says is unnecessary for Canada’s needs and too expensive.

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/air-space/2016/07/20/canada-casts-wide-net-search-fighter-jet-replacements/87352106/

I can't see this being turned around in months instead of years as suggested by Sajjan.
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

Re: Report: Canada To Buy

Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:29 pm

This is going to turn very quickly into a more expensive repeat of the EH-101 fiasco. Canceled for billions in fees, and then having to buy the aircraft anyway but now without the industrial offsets.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
ThePointblank
Posts: 3791
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:39 pm

Re: Report: Canada To Buy

Sat Jul 23, 2016 3:22 am

L-188 wrote:
This is going to turn very quickly into a more expensive repeat of the EH-101 fiasco. Canceled for billions in fees, and then having to buy the aircraft anyway but now without the industrial offsets.


You're tell me. And this is just the tip of the iceberg; there's an ongoing government fiasco where civil servants are either not being paid correctly or at all due to bugs in the payroll system. Some civil servants are now highly tapped out and on the verge of bankruptcy because of the payroll issues. Some friends from when I spent time working in the civil service are very stressed out because of the pay issues.

Eventually, PM Trudeau is going to have to break another election promise; he promised not to buy F-35, but in the same breath, said he will run an 'open competition', and roll the 'billions' in savings into new ships from not buying F-35. Well, F-35 is becoming more and more cheaper with the next lots slated to be less than $90 million per aircraft, and the alternatives are either about the same ballpark in terms of procurement costs, or more.

And you can't have a open competition by deliberately excluding a competitor for no valid reason; it's actually against the law in Canada for the government to do so, except under a number of very strict circumstances. The government has lost many court rulings before where someone has challenged a procurement decision because the government failed to ensure that the contract was properly vetted. Where is his 'savings'?

So which election promise is he going to have to break? Not buying F-35 and paying the same or more in terms of costs, and be at the receiving end of a massive lawsuit for running a sham of a competition in which the government could be forced to restart the purchase again? Break the promise to not buy F-35 and be damned with it? Or do what's politically expedient, and kick the can down the road some more, lives be damned?
 
PlayLoud
Posts: 70
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 7:46 am

Re: RE: Report: Canada To Buy

Wed Jul 27, 2016 8:05 pm

tjh8402 wrote:
As much as I would like to see our friends to the North continue to support our industry, I have to ask why the Saab Gripen isn't a top consideration for this, especially since the Canada don't seem terribly troubled by the F-35 being single engined. It's about the same price as a Super Hornet, and far more suited to Canada's mission. Compared to the SH (and in some cases, the F-35), it's got longer legs, a very powerful radar, the ability to supercruise, higher ceiling, and now the ability to deploy the long range A2A MBDA Meteor missile. This would seem to make it the perfect aircraft for defending and patrolling Canada's vast expanses.

The F-35, once in FRP, will also be about the same price as the Super Hornet.

The only figure I've seen for the Gripen E combat radius is 1300 KM / 700 NM (6 AA missiles, plus drop tanks). The Gripen E only carries 7500 lbs of fuel internally, so these drop tanks are very necessary. By comparison, the F-35's A2A combat radius (4 missiles, internal fuel) is listed at 760 NM.

The ability to supercruise? Mach 1.1 with air to air weapons is hardly a supercruise. It's only going to do this when it isn't carrying external fuel tanks, and it won't have a lot of endurance in the upper transonic region with the such a small internal fuel tank. Even the F-35 has been reported with a limited Mach 1.2 capability. Once you add the needed fuel tanks to the Gripen E, it's not going to supercruise.

I don't know about the service ceiling, as the Super Hornet is only listed as "50,000+". Until we have a better figures, it's hard to compare that one.

I see nothing the Gripen E can do that the F-35 will not do as well or better. Unless your number one concern for nation's defense is budget, the F-35 is the better plane.
 
Ozair
Posts: 5582
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: RE: Report: Canada To Buy

Wed Jul 27, 2016 11:24 pm

The Canadians are still keeping a foot in the door on F-35...

OTTAWA — Canada has so far forked over more than $311 million to develop the F-35 — without any guarantee it will actually buy the multibillion-dollar stealth fighter.

The most recent instalment was made June 24, when the Liberal government quietly paid $32.9 million to the U.S. program office overseeing development of the warplane, despite having promised during last year’s election campaign not to buy the F-35.

The contribution keeps Canada at the table as one of the nine partners in the project for the next year. Partners get a discount when purchasing the stealth fighter, and have access to billions of dollars in contracts associated with producing the plane.

Those potential industrial benefits are a big part of the reason why Canada continues to pay into the program, said Jordan Owens, a spokeswoman for Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan. The government says Canadian companies have secured US$812 million in contracts since Canada’s first F-35 payment in 1997.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadian-politics/liberals-pay-33-million-to-stay-in-f-35-program-despite-promise-not-to-buy-it

More info at the link.
 
Oroka
Posts: 1138
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2006 4:37 am

Re: Report: Canada To Buy

Thu Jul 28, 2016 7:00 pm

Trudeau is now seeing that the F-35 is the best choice, as an aircraft and for Canadian business. His problem now is how to not look bad when they buy the F-35.

Honestly, if he straight up said 'I know I promised not to get the F-35, but with new information, the F-35 is not as expensive now as it was in the past, and investment in a new aircraft that has 50 years of service ahead of it is the best bang for the Canadian dollar', I would have alot of respect for that.
 
Ozair
Posts: 5582
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: Report: Canada To Buy

Thu Jul 28, 2016 10:32 pm

Oroka wrote:
Trudeau is now seeing that the F-35 is the best choice, as an aircraft and for Canadian business. His problem now is how to not look bad when they buy the F-35.

Honestly, if he straight up said 'I know I promised not to get the F-35, but with new information, the F-35 is not as expensive now as it was in the past, and investment in a new aircraft that has 50 years of service ahead of it is the best bang for the Canadian dollar', I would have alot of respect for that.

I don't see how it couldn't play politically in favour of the Liberals. There may be a couple of days of jibe from the opposition but the response is a simple one

"we are buying the most cost effective, capable and supportive of Canadian Industry aircraft that was on offer, after we did a valid assessment of all options".
 
Oroka
Posts: 1138
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2006 4:37 am

Re: Report: Canada To Buy

Fri Jul 29, 2016 12:39 pm

Ozair wrote:
I don't see how it couldn't play politically in favour of the Liberals. There may be a couple of days of jibe from the opposition but the response is a simple one



Because no matter how they spin it, blatantly breaking a election PROMISE will be thrown in their face for years to come. It doesnt matter if it is the better choice, people think that everything said in public is set in stone, paired with the fact that buying anything else in place of the F-35 was a pretty big part of their election platform. The average Canadian knows nothing about fighter jets other than they are fast, loud, and cost a lot of money. They even question why we even need them at all. So over the years that the Liberals were banging away in the media about how the F-35 doesnt work, is too expensive, and is not stealth when carrying external stores... the Canadian public thinks the F-35 is a golden lemon. They know nothing about the F-35 still being in development, they know nothing of the pricing of scale, or how stealth and internal stores work. The Liberals shot themselves in the foot in trying to make the Conservatives look bad.



Ozair wrote:
"we are buying the most cost effective, capable and supportive of Canadian Industry aircraft that was on offer, after we did a valid assessment of all options".


That would suggest that they didnt do a valid assessment of all options before they opposed the F-35, which they didnt. Their opposition to the F-35 was that the Conservatives chose it. They would have opposed a Eurofighter buy because it wasnt stealth and is still in development (the trance phases), they would have opposed a Super Hornet purchase because it was an aircraft with a short future and based on a 40 year old design... they would have played any side of the fence that would have made the Conservatives bad.


I have been a Liberal supporter for a long time, but their treatment of the CAF is something I have severely disagreed with.
 
User avatar
ssteve
Posts: 1509
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:32 am

Re: Report: Canada To Buy

Fri Jul 29, 2016 1:26 pm

When your opponent embraces your policy position, you can make hay about the reversal, but you can't call them stupid for embracing your position. It's a relatively defanged attack. And sure, anyone with a broader perspective recognizes the baldfaced politics of it, but I really doubt that it will be that strong an attack for Conservatives unless swing voters who also opposed the F35 acquisition like to also have their nose rubbed in it.

"Do you remember how Trudeau opposed the F35? And how you agreed with him and not us? So, uh, vote for us, we were "right" the whole time, even if you may still think it's still the wrong decision. Or perhaps you disagreed with him and voted for him anyways? Clearly his changing his mind on the issue means... that perhaps you like him all the more for it. Crap."
 
ThePointblank
Posts: 3791
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:39 pm

Re: Report: Canada To Buy

Sat Aug 06, 2016 5:33 am

F-35 to make an appearance in Canada for the first time at the Abbotsford Air Show:

http://www.abbotsfordairshow.com/f-35-t ... l-airshow/
 
yyz64
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2016 3:13 pm

Re: Report: Canada To Buy

Wed Aug 10, 2016 3:44 am

2 F-35's on static and Boeing is sending their Super Hornet demo for the flying display.
 
Oroka
Posts: 1138
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2006 4:37 am

Re: Report: Canada To Buy

Thu Aug 11, 2016 4:53 pm

Fingers crossed they make an appearance at the London Ontario airshow in Sept. The F-35 and F-22 at one show would be awesome... the airshows of the last few years have been yawn inducing.
 
yyz64
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2016 3:13 pm

Re: Report: Canada To Buy

Fri Aug 12, 2016 12:17 am

London already has a stellar lineup.To add the F-35 would too much ! But I wouldn't complain.
I would think if we were going to see the F-35 it would have been at Toronto.
 
User avatar
Zkpilot
Posts: 4611
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:21 pm

Re: Report: Canada To Buy

Mon Aug 15, 2016 2:40 am

I guess if they went for this SH option and then secured the F-35 at better prices (after a review/comparison) then they could say that yes they did effectively cancel the original order and got SH instead and then with a better deal the F-35 became a good option so selected. Means the international fall-out very limited, the domestic fall-out averted due to getting a better deal.
64 types. 45 countries. 24 airlines.
 
Ozair
Posts: 5582
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: Report: Canada To Buy

Mon Aug 15, 2016 11:18 am

Zkpilot wrote:
I guess if they went for this SH option and then secured the F-35 at better prices (after a review/comparison) then they could say that yes they did effectively cancel the original order and got SH instead and then with a better deal the F-35 became a good option so selected. Means the international fall-out very limited, the domestic fall-out averted due to getting a better deal.

Even two months ago I thought that might be a good idea but with the F-35A now IOC with the USAF and a bulk buy likely to occur there is no value for money in a SH purchase. The Canadians have indicated they won't have the budget to purchase until approx 2021 anyway and by then the SH will be long gone. It is approaching a certainty that the Canadians will get F-35 so it makes sense now to commit to a small purchase for delivery in that 2021 timeframe. Bed down the airframe, retire the oldest classic hornets and then when the F-35 hits the lowest point of its price curve in 2023-24 bulk buy another 30-40 jets.
 
Oroka
Posts: 1138
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2006 4:37 am

Re: Report: Canada To Buy

Mon Aug 15, 2016 1:33 pm

Ozair wrote:
It is approaching a certainty that the Canadians will get F-35 so it makes sense now to commit to a small purchase for delivery in that 2021 timeframe. Bed down the airframe, retire the oldest classic hornets and then when the F-35 hits the lowest point of its price curve in 2023-24 bulk buy another 30-40 jets.


Shhhhhh... dont say that too loud, the Liberals might hear a good idea and do the exact opposite.
 
bmacleod
Posts: 2990
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2001 3:10 am

Re: Report: Canada To Buy

Thu Nov 24, 2016 1:42 pm

Ironic that Justin's father Pierre Trudeau was PM when the CF-18 was first ordered in 1980.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Fighter_Aircraft_Project
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
BenTheGreat97
Posts: 45
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 5:18 am

Re: Report: Canada To Buy

Sat Nov 26, 2016 6:20 pm

So ordering interim Super Hornets gives it a significant advantage over the other fighters in the open competition. In my opinion, the competition is done. Canada will look at all the options, and say "these features on **insert other fighter here** are nice, but the Super Hornet has the most commonality with our current interim fleet, has nice features as well and will be cheaper to operate (also due to commonality)", and then they'll order 60 - 70 more Super Hornets.
 
Ozair
Posts: 5582
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: Report: Canada To Buy

Sat Nov 26, 2016 9:00 pm

BenTheGreat97 wrote:
So ordering interim Super Hornets gives it a significant advantage over the other fighters in the open competition.

Perhaps. It depends on how long there is between delivery of the interim SH and when the competition is decided. There is every chance that the SH could be out of production between that period.

BenTheGreat97 wrote:
In my opinion, the competition is done. Canada will look at all the options, and say "these features on **insert other fighter here** are nice, but the Super Hornet has the most commonality with our current interim fleet, has nice features as well and will be cheaper to operate (also due to commonality)", and then they'll order 60 - 70 more Super Hornets.

The SH will not be the cheapest to operate. If we consider that Canada will require these jets to serve for 40 years from delivery, as the current fleet of classic Hornets will have done so, then the cost to operate significantly changes. They will also likely become the sole operator of the SH in the operating timeframe. Being the sole operator of a fighter jet is the most expensive way to operate it as you become solely responsible to managing the hardware and software. The Canadian SH would end up very much like the RAAF operating the F-111, sustainable for a few years before costs rose dramatically to an unsustainable level. Having a hundred+ jets in the boneyard didn't make a different to the F-111 and the SH would be no different. Forecasting ahead, if the Canadians purchase 75 SH in the early to mid 20s, they will require at minimum two significant upgrades to their systems, drastically increasing their overall life cycle costs.

Additionally, the SH right now cannot operate in the high threat environments it is required to and numerous GAO reports indicate this is unlikely to change anytime soon. It seems somewhat pointless then to purchase a jet that cannot fulfill requirements from day one. The Canadian Govt released a unclassified threat statement a few years back which can be found here, http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-report ... nt-en.page Looking at what the next gen fighter is expected to operate against, the SH just does not cut it.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 18 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos