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Wing8
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Bulgaria will buy new fighter jets

Fri Nov 04, 2016 7:16 am

According to the following source
http://bit.ly/2fldFzz

Bulgaria will choice new Saab Gripens or second hand Eurofighters and F-16s to replace part of Mig-29 fleet.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Bulgaria will buy new fighter jets

Fri Nov 04, 2016 7:42 am

Interesting, how many will be will be purchased? Currently they operate 15 MiG29's and 12 Sukhoi Su-25K (and 3 Aero L-39ZA Albatros). So a fleet of about 22 - 25 Fighters should be a nice replacement and get ride of two different types. I don't know if the budget would allow for something like this.

They mentioned in the article new Gripens and second hand second hand Eurofighters and F-16s. Why no second hand Gripens, a bunch of them should become available in the next few years and Czech Air Force and Hungarian Air Force's already operate the type. The F-16 seems to be the choice it the budget is leading and I don't know the Eurofighter is in this, seems to be an overkill in this competition, to expensive to operate and to purchase.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Wing8
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Re: Bulgaria will buy new fighter jets

Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:11 am

ItAF tried to sell EFA tranche 1 to Romania and Turkey, but without success. I think it can now offer them to Romania.
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Bulgaria will buy new fighter jets

Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:18 am

Wing8 wrote:
ItAF tried to sell EFA tranche 1 to Romania and Turkey, but without success. I think it can now offer them to Romania.


Eurofighter is expensive to buy and run. The F-16 is very cheap to run and buy.
 
94717
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Re: Bulgaria will buy new fighter jets

Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:15 am

I can imagine with Russia in Baltics there is not many second hand Gripens available?
 
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SAS A340
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Re: Bulgaria will buy new fighter jets

Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:38 am

olle wrote:
I can imagine with Russia in Baltics there is not many second hand Gripens available?


Nope, and there are proposals on the table that says that maybe we should keep them in active (about 100 C/D) on top of the 70 new E/f. .... If not all, so maybe 50-60 PCs.
As regards Bulgaria, I believe the Gripen has a good chance and it will probably be about 10-15 C/D, s ;)
It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
 
mxaxai
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Re: Bulgaria will buy new fighter jets

Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:36 pm

Not sure what EF and F-16 offer the Mig-29 can't. They are all roughly the same age, especially if considering used frames. The Mig-29 is a very capable fighter. Maintenance and upgrades may be easier though, with especially the F-16 being operated in large numbers and both designs still in production.
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Bulgaria will buy new fighter jets

Sat Nov 05, 2016 3:18 am

mxaxai wrote:
Not sure what EF and F-16 offer the Mig-29 can't. They are all roughly the same age, especially if considering used frames. The Mig-29 is a very capable fighter. Maintenance and upgrades may be easier though, with especially the F-16 being operated in large numbers and both designs still in production.

Easy. Maintainability. The F-16 is considerably more maintenance friendly. I remember there was a chart a while back I saw of Poland's experience with both the F-16 and their MiG-29's. The F-16 required considerably less overhauls of the engine, to the tune of 8 times less overhauls over the expected life of the aircraft.

Also, consider inter-operability; the MiG-29 as it is has limited inter-operability with other NATO allies. Also, having a fighter design that requires components to come from Russia when tensions with Russia have increased in the past few years is not ideal.
 
epten
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Re: Bulgaria will buy new fighter jets

Mon Nov 07, 2016 8:36 am

mxaxai wrote:
Not sure what EF and F-16 offer the Mig-29 can't. They are all roughly the same age, especially if considering used frames. The Mig-29 is a very capable fighter. Maintenance and upgrades may be easier though, with especially the F-16 being operated in large numbers and both designs still in production.


MiG-29 is a capable fighter... with very unflattering operational history. Although involved in many conflicts around the world - some of which symmetric - never ever shot down a single enemy fighter, while being shot down many times. MiG-29 is beautiful to look at, awesome on airshows and... that's about it.

EF and F-16 offer many things that MiG-29 doesn't.

EF is a true air superiority fighter, able to supercruise, with range almost double that of the MiG-29, far greater average speed and with a hefty radar in the nose. Considarbly better BVR capabilities give MiG-29, really, no chance against EF.

F-16 is more comparable to MiG-29. Still, has better radar and carries much greater variety of air-to-ground weapons than the MiG-29, while having comparable overall performance, especially at low altitudes.

MiG-29 is, really, a point-defense and/or front line fighter, aimed at defending ground troops from enemy aerial attacks. When "doing his sh*t" (very tight turns etc...) it will spend its fuel very quickly. When not "doing his sh*t" its a super-easy prey.
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Bulgaria will buy new fighter jets

Sat Nov 12, 2016 8:14 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Interesting, how many will be will be purchased? Currently they operate 15 MiG29's and 12 Sukhoi Su-25K (and 3 Aero L-39ZA Albatros). So a fleet of about 22 - 25 Fighters should be a nice replacement and get ride of two different types. I don't know if the budget would allow for something like this.

They mentioned in the article new Gripens and second hand second hand Eurofighters and F-16s. Why no second hand Gripens, a bunch of them should become available in the next few years and Czech Air Force and Hungarian Air Force's already operate the type. The F-16 seems to be the choice it the budget is leading and I don't know the Eurofighter is in this, seems to be an overkill in this competition, to expensive to operate and to purchase.


Would the USAF be interested in the MiG 29's for training against? Why not make deal in which all the MiG's get traded in?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Bulgaria will buy new fighter jets

Sat Nov 12, 2016 8:34 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Interesting, how many will be will be purchased? Currently they operate 15 MiG29's and 12 Sukhoi Su-25K (and 3 Aero L-39ZA Albatros). So a fleet of about 22 - 25 Fighters should be a nice replacement and get ride of two different types. I don't know if the budget would allow for something like this.

They mentioned in the article new Gripens and second hand second hand Eurofighters and F-16s. Why no second hand Gripens, a bunch of them should become available in the next few years and Czech Air Force and Hungarian Air Force's already operate the type. The F-16 seems to be the choice it the budget is leading and I don't know the Eurofighter is in this, seems to be an overkill in this competition, to expensive to operate and to purchase.


Would the USAF be interested in the MiG 29's for training against? Why not make deal in which all the MiG's get traded in?


What happend to the MiG29 from Moldavia?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tjh8402
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Re: Bulgaria will buy new fighter jets

Sat Nov 12, 2016 11:38 pm

Dutchy wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Interesting, how many will be will be purchased? Currently they operate 15 MiG29's and 12 Sukhoi Su-25K (and 3 Aero L-39ZA Albatros). So a fleet of about 22 - 25 Fighters should be a nice replacement and get ride of two different types. I don't know if the budget would allow for something like this.

They mentioned in the article new Gripens and second hand second hand Eurofighters and F-16s. Why no second hand Gripens, a bunch of them should become available in the next few years and Czech Air Force and Hungarian Air Force's already operate the type. The F-16 seems to be the choice it the budget is leading and I don't know the Eurofighter is in this, seems to be an overkill in this competition, to expensive to operate and to purchase.


Would the USAF be interested in the MiG 29's for training against? Why not make deal in which all the MiG's get traded in?


What happend to the MiG29 from Moldavia?


The US has the Moldovan planes. They've been various distributed to museums, test facilities, etc. We've also had the opportunity to train against and with MiG-29's operated by various former Soviet allies like Poland. The German Air Force, in particular, has been helpful in providing the former East German AF MiG-29s for evaluation. Unless these are particularly advanced vs the others, I think the US is probably pretty familiar with plane's capabilities and has ready access to plenty of airframes should they need further evaluation or training.

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/how-to ... 1682723379
http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-bu ... ters-14486
http://www.airspacemag.com/military-avi ... 03/?no-ist
http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/these- ... 1685291961
 
VSMUT
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Re: Bulgaria will buy new fighter jets

Sun Nov 13, 2016 7:38 pm

epten wrote:
MiG-29 is a capable fighter... with very unflattering operational history. Although involved in many conflicts around the world - some of which symmetric - never ever shot down a single enemy fighter, while being shot down many times.


That's not quite true, Eritrean Fulcrums got 5 kills in the 1999-2000 war between Eritrea and Ethiopia, 4x MiG-21s and 1x MiG-23.
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Bulgaria will buy new fighter jets

Mon Nov 14, 2016 3:10 am

VSMUT wrote:
epten wrote:
MiG-29 is a capable fighter... with very unflattering operational history. Although involved in many conflicts around the world - some of which symmetric - never ever shot down a single enemy fighter, while being shot down many times.


That's not quite true, Eritrean Fulcrums got 5 kills in the 1999-2000 war between Eritrea and Ethiopia, 4x MiG-21s and 1x MiG-23.

The Eritrean MiG-29's got their rear ends handed to them by Ethiopian Su-27's. ACIG notes the following kills for the conflict:

http://www.acig.info/CMS/index.php?opti ... &Itemid=47

FDREAF/Ethiopia 29Aug99 Su-27S 5 Sqn Ethiopian R-73 Learjet 35A (N350JF) Corporate Jets (S.Africa)
ERAF/Eritrea 25Feb1999 MiG-29A 5 Sqn ? 2xR-27R MiG-23BN 3 or 4 FBS/FDREAF
FDREAF/Ethiopia 25Feb1999 Su-27S 5 Sqn Ethiopian R-27R MiG-29A 5 Sqn/ERAF (pilot KIA)
FDREAF/Ethiopia 25Feb1999 Su-27S 5 Sqn Ethiopian R-27R MiG-29A 5 Sqn/ERAF
FDREAF/Ethiopia 25Feb1999 Su-27S 5 Sqn Ethiopian R-73 MiG-29A 5 Sqn ERAF
ERAF/Eritrea 26Feb1999 MiG-29A 5 Sqn Ethiopian volunteer R-73 MiG-21MF/bis 1 or 2 FBS/FDREAF
ERAF/Eritrea 26Feb1999 MiG-29A 5 Sqn Ethiopian volunteer R-73 MiG-21MF/bis 1 or 2 FBS/FDREAF
FDREAF/Ethiopia 26Feb1999 Su-27S 5 Sqn Ethiopian R-27R MiG-29A 5 Sqn/ERAF (pilot KIA)
FDREAF/Ethiopia 26Feb1999 Su-27S 5 Sqn Asther Tolossa R-73 or 30mm MiG-29UB 5 Sqn/ERAF
FDREAF/Ethiopia 18Mar1999 Su-27S 5 Sqn ? 2xR-27R MiG-29A 5 Sqn/ERAF
FDREAF/Ethiopia 18Mar1999 Su-27S 5 Sqn ? 2xR-27R MiG-29A 5 Sqn/ERAF
FDREAF/Ethiopia 16May2000 Su-27S 5 Sqn Ethiopian 2xR-27R MiG-29A 5 Sqn/ERAF
ERAF/Eritrea 18May2000 MiG-29A 5 Sqn Eritrean 2xR-27R MiG-21MF/bis 1 or 2 FBS/FDREAF
EtAF/Eritrea 18May2000 MiG-29A 5 Sqn Eritrean 30mm MiG-21MF/bis 1 or 2 FBS/FDREAF
FDREAF/Ethiopia 18May2000 Su-27S 5 Sqn Ethiopian 2xR-73 MiG-29A 5 Sqn/ERAF

9 MiG-29 kills by Su-27's, with no Su-27's lost.
 
MileHighClubber
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Re: Bulgaria will buy new fighter jets

Mon Nov 14, 2016 3:50 pm

The new Bulgarian president after Sunday's election is heavily "pro Putin" apparently. He is also a former Air Force chief.
Are they still going for western aircraft or will they be looking at what Russia offers? Any info from our Bulgarian members will be greatly appreciated.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Bulgaria will buy new fighter jets

Mon Nov 14, 2016 6:46 pm

MileHighClubber wrote:
The new Bulgarian president after Sunday's election is heavily "pro Putin" apparently. He is also a former Air Force chief.
Are they still going for western aircraft or will they be looking at what Russia offers? Any info from our Bulgarian members will be greatly appreciated.

Apparently, the Mig-29 is quite inferior against modern air superiority fighters like the Su-27, Eurofighter and F-15. During the Jugoslawia wars, up to 14 Mig-29 were shot down, with no NATO losses to enemy fighters.
Therefore, the Su-27/-30/-35 could perhaps be a better fighter. However, these will be much more expensive, and, as history has shown, the best equipment is useless if it isn't maintained properly.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Bulgaria will buy new fighter jets

Mon Nov 14, 2016 8:08 pm

mxaxai wrote:
Apparently, the Mig-29 is quite inferior against modern air superiority fighters like the Su-27, Eurofighter and F-15. During the Jugoslawia wars, up to 14 Mig-29 were shot down, with no NATO losses to enemy fighters.


That's way too simplistic a statement. The Serbian MiG-29s faced a numerically stronger opponent, supported by AWACS planes. The results would have been the same even if they flew F-15s. They also had the early cold-war era MiG-29s, not the latest variants of today (MiG-35, MiG-29M/SMT). I am willing to bet that the latest iterations of the type are more than capable of fulfilling the requirements of the Bulgarian AF just as well as any refurbished 30-year-old F-16A. The big question is along the lines of spare parts, service, future upgrades, NATO compatibility and all of that kind of stuff.
 
sovietjet
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Re: Bulgaria will buy new fighter jets

Tue Nov 15, 2016 5:26 pm

MileHighClubber wrote:
The new Bulgarian president after Sunday's election is heavily "pro Putin" apparently. He is also a former Air Force chief.
Are they still going for western aircraft or will they be looking at what Russia offers? Any info from our Bulgarian members will be greatly appreciated.


The new president is Rumen Radev, former commander of the air force and MiG-29 pilot. During the past two years, as commander of the air force, Radev was very proactive about getting the ball rolling on the new fighter acquisition while at the same time keeping the MiG-29s flying until the new fighter arrives. Basically, he was always aiming for the best and most economical solution for the air force. The MiG-29s are getting old and need maintenance and eventual replacement. However, the politicians were constantly roadblocking and ignoring his expertise and warnings. Parallel to that, the minister of defense a year ago loudly proclaimed that he will cease any and all dealings with Russia, opting to have Poland overhaul six MiG-29 engines instead (without permission from MiG). This led to a huge scandal and a withdrawal of technical support of the jets from Russia. Nevertheless the anti-Russia claims continued with the minister claiming he will order new or overhauled RD-33 engines which won’t come from Russia (I wonder where else new engines will come from!). So, overhaul of MiG-29 engines was done shadily and without prospect, while the new fighter program was very slowly chugging along and was finally put to vote in the parliament earlier this year. Faced with these multiple failures on behalf of the government and seeing that his voice is not heard, Radev quit the air force in August 2016 as a sign of protest to the higher up politicians who were constantly belittling him. He did finish the RfP document for the new fighter acquisition before he resigned. Quickly after that he was endorsed by BSP (Bulgarian Socialist party) for president. The main opposing party, GERB, is the one which was in power the whole time until then. So it is logical they didn’t support him.

Radev is not necessarily heavily “pro-Putin”. Indeed, he is with the socialist party but partially because they accepted him while the other parties didn’t. Don’t forget he was an active air force general until August of this year and he has zero political experience! During his time in the air force he spent time training in the USA and hosted many NATO exercises. I think he will continue the good relationship with the European allies while calming tensions with Russia. I doubt he will be looking at buying Russian aircraft though.

In an ironic twist of fate, just before the election, the minister of defense after all conceded to buy 10 MiG-29 engines from Russia since nobody else could supply them. But, more than a year was wasted and the engines now came at a steeper price.
 
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TripleDelta
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Re: Bulgaria will buy new fighter jets

Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:23 pm

VSMUT wrote:
They also had the early cold-war era MiG-29s, not the latest variants of today (MiG-35, MiG-29M/SMT).


Not only that, those were the downgraded MiG-29B models intended for export to non-Warsaw Pact customers, and carried an early, crude radar and just a barebone ECM suite.
Hawkeye: "It doesn't make any sense."
Radar: "Well, none of it makes any sense. You just have to send in the right number of forms." - MASH 4077
 
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Devilfish
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Re: Bulgaria will buy new fighter jets

Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:29 pm

It appears that the tender is well on its way.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... er-432385/

Quote:
"The Bulgarian ministry of defence has issued a request for proposals to the potential suppliers of a new fighter for the air force.

The RFP was presented to four countries on 9 December, namely Italy, Portugal, the USA and Sweden, which have until March 2017 to submit their bids.

Bulgaria will purchase its fighter through a government-to-government agreement with one of the countries, and the proposals will be prepared by the governments together with the respective manufacturers.

A selection is expected in mid-2017, at which point the selection will have to be put before parliament for approval. This process could be undertaken within 2017, but it is more likely that it will not happen before 2018."



Hopefully, it would be successful this time around.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
mxaxai
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Re: Bulgaria will buy new fighter jets

Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:52 pm

So is it supposed to be like this:
Italy proposes (used?) Eurofighters
Portugal proposes (used?) F-16s
USA propose F-35s or (new?) F-16s
Sweden proposes Gripens
 
Ozair
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Re: Bulgaria will buy new fighter jets

Fri Dec 16, 2016 12:34 am

mxaxai wrote:
So is it supposed to be like this:
Italy proposes (used?) Eurofighters
Portugal proposes (used?) F-16s
USA propose F-35s or (new?) F-16s
Sweden proposes Gripens

Not quite. The US is not offering F-35s, they are offering used F-16s in cooperation with Portugal who will upgrade them. Saab is claiming they will provide new Gripen C/Ds but I'd say they are more likely to be used airframes that will be zero houred. Italy is offering used Tranche 1 Eurofighters.

From the article,

Portugal and the USA are expected to submit a combined proposal for used Lockheed Martin F-16A/B fighters upgraded to the mid-life upgrade (MLU) Block 15 standard. This will use F-16s held in storage, which could be supplied from the USA, with upgrade and refurbishment to be undertaken at Portugal’s OGMA.

The logistics and weapons package would be supplied from the USA through its foreign military sales channels, in the same way it was done when the type was sold to Romania.

Italy’s proposal will comprise used Tranche 1 Eurofighter Typhoons taken from the existing Italian air force inventory.

The only new-build aircraft being pitched is from Sweden, in the form of the Saab Gripen C/D.

Bulgaria has allocated a budget of €767 million ($815 million) for the procurement of a minimum of eight multi-role fighters, together with logistics and weapons.


The weapons package will be pretty standard across the board, probably AIM-120, AIM-9, JDAM and GBU. Not sure the Italians have a chance against F-16 and Gripen...
 
94717
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Re: Bulgaria will buy new fighter jets

Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:25 am

The weapons package will be pretty standard across the board, probably AIM-120, AIM-9, JDAM and GBU. Not sure the Italians have a chance against F-16 and Gripen...

-------------------
The Gripen Both C/D and E can carry Meteor that is a game changer in Europe right now.
 
Ozair
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Re: Bulgaria will buy new fighter jets

Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:47 am

olle wrote:
The weapons package will be pretty standard across the board, probably AIM-120, AIM-9, JDAM and GBU. Not sure the Italians have a chance against F-16 and Gripen...

-------------------
The Gripen Both C/D and E can carry Meteor that is a game changer in Europe right now.


Well to be clear the Gripen E doesn't carry anything as it hasn't even flown yet... but we are talking about Bulgaria which has a limited budget and is seeking full NATO interoperability. It is highly unlikely they will strecth to purchase the Meteor, if they do acquire Gripen, given it currently costs at least twice and by some reports four times an AIM-120...

I'm also not convinced Gripen C and Meteor are a "game changer" combination given the current Gripen radar is not a particularly long ranged system. Gripen C likely has limited ability to track fighter targets at ranges greater than it can employ the AIM-120C. In this case Meteor provides a potentially larger NEZ for targets that flow cold but that is about it.
 
angad84
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Re: Bulgaria will buy new fighter jets

Fri Dec 16, 2016 5:54 pm

Ozair wrote:
... but I'd say they are more likely to be used airframes that will be zero houred.


Why? the line's warm and Saab is still making C/Ds.


Ozair wrote:
Not sure the Italians have a chance against F-16 and Gripen...

No indeed, this feels like a Gripen vs Viper fight, and a SLEP'd upgraded Viper will probably have the edge on cost.

Cheers
A
 
Ozair
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Re: Bulgaria will buy new fighter jets

Fri Dec 16, 2016 10:05 pm

angad84 wrote:
Ozair wrote:
... but I'd say they are more likely to be used airframes that will be zero houred.


Why? the line's warm and Saab is still making C/Ds.

A couple of reasons. First, new builds will struggle to come in under the cost ceiling, especially with logistics and weapons as a component of the US$80 mill acquisition. When Thailand purchased their Gripens in 2008, the contract for six jets, plus a Saab 340 AEW&C, was approx US$600 mill. Thailand already had weapons compatible with Gripen and only purchased a few anti-ship missiles with the second batch of Gripens in 2011.

Second, I don't think the line is as warm as people assume. Thailand was the last nation to receive new build Gripens and that was over three years ago. If I were Saab, who continue to have issues developing Gripen NG whose first flight has been delayed again, transferring staff from the NG would likely extend that already significantly delayed first flight.

Finally, it would make far better sense, for both the Bulgarians and Saab as well as provide better value, if they used surplus Swedish airframes.
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Bulgaria will buy new fighter jets

Sat Dec 17, 2016 5:47 am

Ozair wrote:
surplus Swedish airframes.

I don't think any are left, as the Swedes have been cannibalizing aircraft to keep costs down. That's the problem. And they are using parts from existing Gripens to build the Gripen E as well.
 
angad84
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Re: Bulgaria will buy new fighter jets

Sun Dec 18, 2016 5:54 am

I saw the line 3 months ago. There are C/Ds in production, along with 39-9 (wing-body done, awaiting tail and final outfitting) and 39-10 (first parts beginning to come together, probably loaded up by now). I am at the wrong computer at the moment, but will post pictures as soon as I can.

Cheers
 
Ozair
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Re: Bulgaria will buy new fighter jets

Sun Dec 18, 2016 7:09 am

angad84 wrote:
I saw the line 3 months ago. There are C/Ds in production, along with 39-9 (wing-body done, awaiting tail and final outfitting) and 39-10 (first parts beginning to come together, probably loaded up by now). I am at the wrong computer at the moment, but will post pictures as soon as I can.

Cheers

Thanks, I'd love to know who the customer is? Would also like to know if these are new build aircraft or A models being upgraded to C standard?
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Bulgaria will buy new fighter jets

Sun Dec 18, 2016 9:46 am

Ozair wrote:
angad84 wrote:
I saw the line 3 months ago. There are C/Ds in production, along with 39-9 (wing-body done, awaiting tail and final outfitting) and 39-10 (first parts beginning to come together, probably loaded up by now). I am at the wrong computer at the moment, but will post pictures as soon as I can.

Cheers

Thanks, I'd love to know who the customer is? Would also like to know if these are new build aircraft or A models being upgraded to C standard?


Didn't Thailand order another 6 aircraft back in 2013?
 
Ozair
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Re: Bulgaria will buy new fighter jets

Sun Dec 18, 2016 10:25 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Ozair wrote:
angad84 wrote:
I saw the line 3 months ago. There are C/Ds in production, along with 39-9 (wing-body done, awaiting tail and final outfitting) and 39-10 (first parts beginning to come together, probably loaded up by now). I am at the wrong computer at the moment, but will post pictures as soon as I can.

Cheers

Thanks, I'd love to know who the customer is? Would also like to know if these are new build aircraft or A models being upgraded to C standard?


Didn't Thailand order another 6 aircraft back in 2013?

No, the additional six were ordered in 2011 and delivered in 2013.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Bulgaria will buy new fighter jets

Sun Dec 18, 2016 1:28 pm

Ozair wrote:
angad84 wrote:
I saw the line 3 months ago. There are C/Ds in production, along with 39-9 (wing-body done, awaiting tail and final outfitting) and 39-10 (first parts beginning to come together, probably loaded up by now). I am at the wrong computer at the moment, but will post pictures as soon as I can.

Cheers

Thanks, I'd love to know who the customer is? Would also like to know if these are new build aircraft or A models being upgraded to C standard?


There is the order from Botswana, as well as some aircraft to be leased to Brazil and the Slovak lease deal that will be coming up soon.

They also do quite a bit of re manufacturing work and upgrading at their facility. I believe Sweden is also upgrading and re-introducing a number of older A models that were placed in storage in the 2000s as part of budget cuts.

ThePointblank wrote:
I don't think any are left, as the Swedes have been cannibalizing aircraft to keep costs down. That's the problem. And they are using parts from existing Gripens to build the Gripen E as well.


Nope, they were just stored due to budget cuts. And the Gripen E won't use old parts any more (that was the initial plan however).

angad84 wrote:
Why? the line's warm and Saab is still making C/Ds.


SAAB doesn't build fighter jets in the traditional way as done by Lockheed Martin. SAABs production line has much greater focus on manual work, and is capable of restarting production for small batches even if series production has already been shut down. Denmark took advantage of that when we needed 5 extra two-seat F-35s in the 1970s, and production of the type had already ended.
 
art
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Re: Bulgaria will buy new fighter jets

Sun Dec 18, 2016 4:57 pm

Even if Bulgaria was interested In a fighter offering outstanding A2A qualities, I would imagine the cost of keeping Typhoon operational (I've heard spares are very expensive) would sink its chances. F-16? Well, by the time the aircraft have been upgraded and refurbished, they will not be so cheap compared to buying new Gripen C. Between F-16 and Gripen C to me in terms of affordability. Could politics/NATO compatability be the deciding factor swinging it either towards/away from a US product?
 
Ozair
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Re: Bulgaria will buy new fighter jets

Sun Dec 18, 2016 10:52 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Ozair wrote:
angad84 wrote:
I saw the line 3 months ago. There are C/Ds in production, along with 39-9 (wing-body done, awaiting tail and final outfitting) and 39-10 (first parts beginning to come together, probably loaded up by now). I am at the wrong computer at the moment, but will post pictures as soon as I can.

Cheers

Thanks, I'd love to know who the customer is? Would also like to know if these are new build aircraft or A models being upgraded to C standard?


There is the order from Botswana, as well as some aircraft to be leased to Brazil and the Slovak lease deal that will be coming up soon.

As far as I am aware the order for Botswana hasn't been signed, do you have info that it has been? Brazil is getting some interim aircraft but seems crazy that these would be new builds when they will be in service for only 5 years. The last report I read for Slovakia does not point to them being certain to acquire the aircraft. It would be very presumptuous to build aircraft in the hope that these contracts materialise.

VSMUT wrote:
They also do quite a bit of re manufacturing work and upgrading at their facility. I believe Sweden is also upgrading and re-introducing a number of older A models that were placed in storage in the 2000s as part of budget cuts.

Given the number that were manufactured I don’t see the rationale. Sweden has already built ~200 Gripen for domestic use but now have less than 100 in frontline service (with a number of these being A models converted to C) and the vast majority of these would be reasonably low on hours. It looks more like Government assistance to keep the production line open until Gripen E arrives and win potential orders over actual operational requirements.
 
afh1
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Re: Bulgaria will buy new fighter jets

Sun Dec 18, 2016 11:17 pm

ThePointblank wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
epten wrote:
MiG-29 is a capable fighter... with very unflattering operational history. Although involved in many conflicts around the world - some of which symmetric - never ever shot down a single enemy fighter, while being shot down many times.


That's not quite true, Eritrean Fulcrums got 5 kills in the 1999-2000 war between Eritrea and Ethiopia, 4x MiG-21s and 1x MiG-23.

The Eritrean MiG-29's got their rear ends handed to them by Ethiopian Su-27's. ACIG notes the following kills for the conflict:

http://www.acig.info/CMS/index.php?opti ... &Itemid=47

FDREAF/Ethiopia 29Aug99 Su-27S 5 Sqn Ethiopian R-73 Learjet 35A (N350JF) Corporate Jets (S.Africa)
ERAF/Eritrea 25Feb1999 MiG-29A 5 Sqn ? 2xR-27R MiG-23BN 3 or 4 FBS/FDREAF
FDREAF/Ethiopia 25Feb1999 Su-27S 5 Sqn Ethiopian R-27R MiG-29A 5 Sqn/ERAF (pilot KIA)
FDREAF/Ethiopia 25Feb1999 Su-27S 5 Sqn Ethiopian R-27R MiG-29A 5 Sqn/ERAF
FDREAF/Ethiopia 25Feb1999 Su-27S 5 Sqn Ethiopian R-73 MiG-29A 5 Sqn ERAF
ERAF/Eritrea 26Feb1999 MiG-29A 5 Sqn Ethiopian volunteer R-73 MiG-21MF/bis 1 or 2 FBS/FDREAF
ERAF/Eritrea 26Feb1999 MiG-29A 5 Sqn Ethiopian volunteer R-73 MiG-21MF/bis 1 or 2 FBS/FDREAF
FDREAF/Ethiopia 26Feb1999 Su-27S 5 Sqn Ethiopian R-27R MiG-29A 5 Sqn/ERAF (pilot KIA)
FDREAF/Ethiopia 26Feb1999 Su-27S 5 Sqn Asther Tolossa R-73 or 30mm MiG-29UB 5 Sqn/ERAF
FDREAF/Ethiopia 18Mar1999 Su-27S 5 Sqn ? 2xR-27R MiG-29A 5 Sqn/ERAF
FDREAF/Ethiopia 18Mar1999 Su-27S 5 Sqn ? 2xR-27R MiG-29A 5 Sqn/ERAF
FDREAF/Ethiopia 16May2000 Su-27S 5 Sqn Ethiopian 2xR-27R MiG-29A 5 Sqn/ERAF
ERAF/Eritrea 18May2000 MiG-29A 5 Sqn Eritrean 2xR-27R MiG-21MF/bis 1 or 2 FBS/FDREAF
EtAF/Eritrea 18May2000 MiG-29A 5 Sqn Eritrean 30mm MiG-21MF/bis 1 or 2 FBS/FDREAF
FDREAF/Ethiopia 18May2000 Su-27S 5 Sqn Ethiopian 2xR-73 MiG-29A 5 Sqn/ERAF

9 MiG-29 kills by Su-27's, with no Su-27's lost.



the information from acig is not true at best. what realy happened was described by an eritrean pilot in an interview. the interview is done in eritrean language (tigrigna). i will try to translate later to my best to make clear of what happened in the air battle. some one tried to translate the interview but to my opinion, he has not adequetly included all the information. the interview is long so i will hilight the important events now.

the pilot is Dejen Ande Hishel one of the four eritrean pilots who took a crush cource training in russia to become a fighter pilot of the mikoyan mig29 fulkrum. the other three were Yonas Misghinna, Samuel Girmay and Iyoub. among them Dejen was the most capable and at times he was flying training sorties up to four times a day in the mig29 in those few months in russia.

back to eritrea, according to Dejen the fulcrums which arrived to eritrea was supposed to be new but they were apparently used. there were no bullets for the cannons and radar and missile mulfunction accured. the war with ethiopia started again for the second round, near the town of badme in februari 1999. Dejen as the most capable one was given the task of cap and sweep missions (air to air).

i will come back with the exact dates later (i will revisit the interview again to be exact). one day in february, Dejen went to a cap mission to the frontline when a sam missile was launched at him. as he saw it with his own eyes and was carrying only air to air missiles he was able to take evasive manuvers and evaded the sam missile. back to base he warrned the commands that the area is dangerous to operate.

despite that fact , Yonas was sent one morrning on a bombing mission to that area and never returned. after a couple of days Samuel too went to the same place at the same altitude as Yonas. he too never returned. later it was known that Yonas's body was found away from the crashed fulcrum, strapped to the ejection seat that failed to oppen the parachute. Dejen believes that Yonas must have ejected att low altitude and enverted.

now keep in mind that it is a known fact that ethiopian sukhoi 27s were flown by russian merceneries (i dont know to what extent). Dejen simply said in the interview that a third fulcrum had incountered trouble again in february or march. to my understanding, this could be the one that was downded or damaged as a resut of a dogfight with an ethiopian flanker (su 27). the only casuality for the eritrean airforce in the entire war were Yonas and Samuel. after the downing of Samuel, all fulcrums were grounded and never participated again for the whole remaining time of the war. the story about eritrean mig 29 downing other ethiopian migs or suchois is not true either.

Dejen was not happy to hear the decision to ground all operations after the lose of two mig 29s. he describes that an apportunity to revenge was lost in the battle of igri-mekel, which accured after the battle of badme. Igri_mekel was just about 80 kilometers from the eritrean air base in asmara. it was also a higher place,which was according to Dejen very suitable to opperate, unlike badme which was long distance. as to my oppinion Dejen is giving the hint that the fulcrums combat radius probably was an issue.

here is the links to the interview (part 2 specifically) and a short summarized and translated article.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cw26luObo4
https://martinplaut.wordpress.com/2014/ ... ty-prison/
 
VSMUT
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Re: Bulgaria will buy new fighter jets

Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:18 am

Ozair wrote:
As far as I am aware the order for Botswana hasn't been signed, do you have info that it has been? Brazil is getting some interim aircraft but seems crazy that these would be new builds when they will be in service for only 5 years. The last report I read for Slovakia does not point to them being certain to acquire the aircraft. It would be very presumptuous to build aircraft in the hope that these contracts materialise.


I did mean to say that all three orders/deals were upcoming, as in the near-future prospects of this line. But as said above, the line also manufactures and upgrades older aircraft, so the Brazilian lease-frame may very well be on the way.


Ozair wrote:
Given the number that were manufactured I don’t see the rationale. Sweden has already built ~200 Gripen for domestic use but now have less than 100 in frontline service (with a number of these being A models converted to C) and the vast majority of these would be reasonably low on hours. It looks more like Government assistance to keep the production line open until Gripen E arrives and win potential orders over actual operational requirements.


They are rebuilding their fleet to counter the Russians, that's why. Sweden is a massive country and the 60 or so jets they had left in service were unable to perform the task. The A-models are outdated and need to be upgraded to Cs before being taken into use again.
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Bulgaria will buy new fighter jets

Mon Dec 19, 2016 9:08 am

VSMUT wrote:

They are rebuilding their fleet to counter the Russians, that's why. Sweden is a massive country and the 60 or so jets they had left in service were unable to perform the task. The A-models are outdated and need to be upgraded to Cs before being taken into use again.

The Swedes are taking apart older Gripen's to use certain components in new production (or what they call re-manufacturered) Gripen E's:

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... gs-396977/

Sweden’s remanufactured aircraft will retain almost none of the previous airframe, but will reuse parts of its fuel and air systems, plus its ejection seat, windshield, canopy and outer wing elevons.


It doesn't sound like the Swedes intend on keeping the older airframes around after harvesting the components from them to put into 're-manufactured' Gripen E's.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Bulgaria will buy new fighter jets

Mon Dec 19, 2016 10:15 am

ThePointblank wrote:
The Swedes are taking apart older Gripen's to use certain components in new production (or what they call re-manufacturered) Gripen E's:

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... gs-396977/

It doesn't sound like the Swedes intend on keeping the older airframes around after harvesting the components from them to put into 're-manufactured' Gripen E's.


Nope, remanufactured it is not, that's a mistake on behalf of flight global. Remanufacturing is the term used by SAAB to describe the original plan to convert existing Gripens, not just reusing a very small handful of easily removed parts. Besides which, it is purely a cost-cutting method by the Swedish government. The old airframes themselves will still be around (radars, engines, systems and everything), and the few parts taken can still be built to make the older frames operational again.
 
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Synapse
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Re: Bulgaria will buy new fighter jets

Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:26 pm

Why they want to buy new fighter jets? Is it means, that Bulgaria veers to the policy of local aggresive expansionalism? I m uncertain of their intensions, cause so small local armies in Europe did not need in jet fighters indeed. NATO will serve them or kill them anyway.
 
agill
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Re: Bulgaria will buy new fighter jets

Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:54 pm

Synapse wrote:
Why they want to buy new fighter jets? Is it means, that Bulgaria veers to the policy of local aggresive expansionalism? I m uncertain of their intensions, cause so small local armies in Europe did not need in jet fighters indeed. NATO will serve them or kill them anyway.


Well Bulgaria is a part of NATO right, so their air force would just add to the NATO-force.
 
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Re: Bulgaria will buy new fighter jets

Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:31 pm

[quote="agill"][/quote]
That is economically unreasoned for Bulgaria
 
Ozair
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Re: Bulgaria will buy new fighter jets

Mon Dec 19, 2016 9:09 pm

Synapse wrote:
agill wrote:

That is economically unreasoned for Bulgaria

Perhaps, but as a NATO member Bulgaria has to make and keep certain commitments. Airspace control is one means of fulfilling that those commitments.

VSMUT wrote:
They are rebuilding their fleet to counter the Russians, that's why. Sweden is a massive country and the 60 or so jets they had left in service were unable to perform the task. The A-models are outdated and need to be upgraded to Cs before being taken into use again.

Your numbers are not adding up and there is no build up of Swedish jets to counter Russia. Sweden notionally operates almost 100 Gripens (the budget doesn't allow them to actually sustain that number) and have operated that number for quite a few years, after receiving a total of approx 200 deliveries, 100 of which were C aircraft. They have also chosen to order only 60 E models (80 if they can afford it) and do not plan to operate the C and E side by side once all E models have been delivered.

Looking at the graph of Swedish fighter aircraft in service we see the Gripen maxed at 150 and has been at less than a 100 since 2010.

Image

These in service numbers are not increasing. Sweden may be conducting a small upgrade program to bring some Gripen A models up to C standard but that is it. Brazil will be leasing already manufactured aircraft.
The Força Aérea Brasileira commander thereby acknowledged he accepted the proposition by the Swedish government / SAAB to borrow 10 to 12 JAS 39C/D Gripen aircraft currently in service with the Swedish Air Force (Flygvapnet)

http://airheadsfly.com/2014/03/15/brazilian-af-chief-gripen-2016/


There is no other reason to manufacture new aircraft and the Swedish Air Force received it's last new build Gripen C in 2015.

Saab has delivered its final Gripen C ordered for the Swedish air force

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/picture-swedish-air-force-receives-its-last-gripen-410525//

But all is not lost, I expect the future of second hand Gripens will be where Saab and the Swedish Air Force actually make money over the next 10-15 years. Thailand will likely take more Gripen C as Sweden retires them and the Gripen may become a good aircraft for a host of smaller nations, like Bulgaria, that want some capability but don't need new build first rate jets.

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