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Ozair
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Re: Future of western fighter production lines

Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:01 am

First Qatar, then Kuwait and now Egypt. Looks like Egypt may acquire the Eurofighter to add to the already complex mix of fighter aircraft they are operating amid continued reports Egypt have also signed for the Su-35.

If the Eurofighter deal does go ahead it will be a coup for Airbus and the Italian production line and what probably everyone was expecting was a lock for a Rafale top up order.

Italian government reportedly approves frigate sale to Egypt

...

The Italian media has reported that the frigate deal is part of a much larger package that includes another four frigates, 20 corvettes based on the Falaj class that Fincantieri built for the United Arab Emirates, 24 Eurofighter Typhoon multirole jets, 24 M346 jet trainers, and a surveillance satellite.

...

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... 9c463737d5

I understand the political aspects of these procurements but it sure isn't a smart way to run an air force if you are Qatar, Kuwait, Egypt, Malaysia, Indonesia etc and don't harmonise your fighter fleets around one or two aircraft.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Future of western fighter production lines

Mon Jun 15, 2020 12:28 pm

If you are always facing a risk of sanctions, it makes sense to have a diverse fleet.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Future of western fighter production lines

Tue Jun 16, 2020 12:28 pm

There navy is also full of diversity, they have a French FREMM, now 2 Italian FREMMS, 6 MEKO A200 frigates ordered from Germany last year, another 4 frigates of undisclosed origin this year, corvettes from France, Germany and Spain, along with Russian, Chinese, US and UK built missile boats. It must be a logistical nightmare!
 
art
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Re: Future of western fighter production lines

Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:10 am

seahawk wrote:
If you are always facing a risk of sanctions, it makes sense to have a diverse fleet.


Sure but I cannot think of France being more likely to halt arms shipments to Egypt than the UK so what's the point of buying a roughly comparable fighter from a different source more likely to withold parts/support? I could see the argument for an additional type in the air force if it discharged some role far better than Rafale but I don't see where that would apply to Typhoon v Rafale.
 
Ozair
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Re: Future of western fighter production lines

Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:43 am

Looks like Qatar has expanded their order for the F-15QA from 36 to 48 aircraft. The DSCA announcement gave them clearance up to 72 so it appears they have ordered at least an additional twelve. Good news for USAF F-15EX aspirations as it keeps the F-15 production line in action for likely an additional year and may reduce the overall cost of the jet if orders are coming for two different customers.

US appears to confirm expanded F-15QA buy for Qatar

...

On 23 May the DoD disclosed that the US Army Corps of Engineers had contracted Doha-based company BAH-ICM JV to build facilities for the Qatar Emiri Air Force’s (QEAF’s) new fleet. In the notification, the department said; “The Foreign Military Sales (FMS) purchase of forty-eight (48) F-15QA aircraft improves the State of Qatar's capability to meet current and future enemy air-to-air and air-to-ground threats”. Janes noted this discrepancy in the numbers at the time, but as it was the first such occurrence this suggested that it may have been in error.

...

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... -for-qatar
 
Ozair
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Re: Future of western fighter production lines

Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:29 pm

Good news for Eurofighter fans with Spain committing to start the replacement of the EF-18 Hornets with additional Eurofighters. There was speculation that Spain could go for an F-35 acquisition that would support both the replacement of the Hornets and the Harriers in Naval service, now likely just the F-35B if Spain wants to continue with naval aviation. The intent is to manage the Eurofighter fleet out to replacement by FCAS.

Spain to receive new Eurofighters under Project 'Halcon'

Spain is set to receive new Eurofighter combat aircraft to augment its existing fleet and to begin the process of replacing its Boeing EF-18 Hornet fleet.

The proposed deal that the government is currently negotiating with Airbus, announced on 9 July, will involve an initial 20 Eurofighters being delivered to the Spanish Air Force (Ejército del Aire Español [EdAE]) to replace Hornets based on the Canary Islands.

The deal, which Airbus told Janes is expected to be signed in 2021, would be the first part of a wider plan to retire the service’s Hornets with the latest-standard Eurofighters between 2025 and 2030, dubbed Project ‘Halcon’ (Falcon).

...

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... ect-halcon

Good news for Eurofighter production in general though. Three years ago things were looking bleak with all ordered partner aircraft in the final stages of delivery but now with German and Spanish orders production should continue into the late 2020s at least. Spain is also looking at an upgraded aircraft to their current fleet, I would expect with AESA and if they were smart for these Canary islands based aircraft some conformal fuel tanks. We may also see additional aircraft to replace Tranche 1 Eurofighters in service as well.
 
Ozair
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Re: Future of western fighter production lines

Sun Nov 01, 2020 8:32 pm

The UK has vetoed the sale of FA-50s to Argentina given the number of UK parts in the aircraft. You would expect this will prevent Argentina from acquiring most western fighter aircraft or advanced trainers given UK content. Certainly no Gripen, F-16, Eurofighter or Rafale. Perhaps Argentina will have to look further afield to Russian or Chinese aircraft if they really want to upgrade their air force.

UK bars South Korea from selling FA-50 to Argentina

The United Kingdom has effectively barred the sale of the FA-50 Fighting Eagle to Argentina, with the South Korean manufacturer informing the South American nation that it is unable to supply the light fighter and strike jet with its British-made parts.

In a letter dated 28 October, a senior official at Korea Aerospace Industries (KAI) told Argentina’s ambassador to the Republic of Korea that the FA-50 cannot be exported due to the UK government’s arms embargo on the country. As KAI Senior Manager and Chief, International Business Strategy Department, Martin Chun, noted in his letter to Ambassador Alfredo Carlos Bascou, the FA-50 includes six major components that are sourced from the UK.

...

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... -argentina

I wonder whether a T-7 may be an option in five years, not sure how much UK content is expected but irrespective you would expect pressure from the UK on the US not to export.
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Future of western fighter production lines

Tue Nov 10, 2020 9:04 am

A Canadian pilot training company has announced intentions to purchase KAI's FA-50 advanced jet trainers:

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/3 ... ombat-jets

ITPS Canada Ltd, a commercial provider of tactical aviation training services, is poised to add the two-seat Korea Aerospace Industries FA-50 Fighting Eagle light combat aircraft to its roster, with a Memorandum of Understanding signed between the Canadian firm and the jet’s manufacturer. The relationship, which ITPS officially announced yesterday, is described as serving to “promote the FA-50 for tactical and adversary training,” but the company plans to eventually entirely replace its legacy Aero Vodochody L-39C Albatros jet trainer fleet with the type.

ITPS President Giorgio Clementi told The War Zone that his company plans to buy between eight and 12 examples of the South Korean FA-50 for the advanced training role. Like the Albatross, they will be based in Canada. As well as its five L-39Cs, the company also owns three Aero L-29 Delfins and two Hawker Hunters, all of which would potentially be superseded by the far more capable KA-50s.

“The KAI FA-50 is a great aircraft!” Clementi had said in an earlier company press release. “The aircraft’s performance, flying qualities, and mission capabilities make it the ideal platform for tactical and adversary training missions and a great fit for ITPS to replace our L-39 fleet. A new aircraft supported by the manufacturer and with the associated engineering and logistical support ensures reliable and cost-effective operations into the future.”


This company currently operates L-39 Albatross, L-29 Delfins, and Hawker Hunters in their fleet. They are looking at the FA-50 to replace all of their older jet trainers in service.
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Future of western fighter production lines

Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:22 am

It appears a number of ex-Israeli F-16's are being sold to a Top Aces, a Canadian defence contractor providing adversary training:

https://en.globes.co.il/en/article-isra ... 1001351073

The Ministry of Defense is hoping to sell 29 surplus fighter jets to the Montreal-based defense training contractor for $3-4 million each.

Israel's Ministry of Defense is conducted negotiations with Canadian company Top Aces, sources close to the matter have informed "Globes," for the sale of the Israel Air Force's IAF) 29 surplus F-16 fighter jets - with each jet selling for between $3 million and $4 million. General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcons were delivered to Israel in the early 1980s and over the past decade have been gradually phased out of service.


This will add to Top Aces' fleet of aircraft, which already include A-4 Skyhawk's and Alpha Jets.
 
Ozair
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Re: Future of western fighter production lines

Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:53 pm

The Philippine Armed Forces chief has made some comments suggesting that a decision on new fighter aircraft will be made and order signed before the current President steps down in 2022. The suggestion being taken in the media is that the F-16 is the favourite based on his comments below. Would be another blow to the Gripen if this were true as Saab was pretty clearly looking at the Philippines as a potential customer.

AFP chief sees new fighter jets for PH military before Duterte steps down

A deal that would bring multi-role fighter jets to the Philippine military, one of its big ticket projects, could be signed before President Rodrigo Duterte steps down in 2022, according to Armed Forces of the Philippines chief Gen. Gilbert Gapay on Monday (Dec. 7).

The defense department has yet to make public its choice between two types of fighter jets—Saab JAS 39 Gripen or Lockheed Martin F-16V–but Gapay dropped hints it could be the US-made F-16s. “Soon, before our President steps down, we will finally have multi-role fighters in the likes of the F-16 in our Air Force inventory,” said Gapay at a Laging Handa press briefing held online.

...

https://globalnation.inquirer.net/19256 ... steps-down

Crazy how well the F-16V seems to be tracking, I certainly thought its days were numbered a few years ago.
 
Ozair
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Re: Future of western fighter production lines

Tue Jan 19, 2021 12:42 am

Kuwait will be delayed in receiving their Bk 3 SHs ordered in 2018. Covid is cited as the reason for the delay. These SH will be a blend of Blk 2 and Blk 3 systems I expect due to some Blk 3 systems being US only. The article also mentions using a enhanced F414 engines but this is the first time I have seen that reported. That would be of interest given it was Kuwait who funded the improved thrust version of the F404 for the classic Hornet. I am also keen to see if Kuwait will maintain the same camo pattern on the new SH as they have had on the classic Hornets or if they will adopt the standard paint of other SH operators.

Covid-19 impacts Super Hornet timeline for Kuwait

Deliveries of 28 Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet combat aircraft to Kuwait have been delayed due to the ongoing Covid-19 health crisis, a company official told Janes on 14 January.

The 22 single-seat F/A-18Es and six twin-seat F/A-18Fs that were contracted in a government-to-government deal in June 2018 will be handed over to the US Navy (USN) later in 2021, instead of by the end of January as first intended.

“Covid has certainly impacted our business. We are working with the customer now on contract modifications to reflect our new timeline, and we will deliver the final Kuwait F/A-18 Super Hornet to the US Navy this summer [third quarter],” Boeing told Janes . The timeline for the USN’s final handover of the jets to the Kuwaiti Air Force has not been disclosed.

The USD2.7 billion deal for Kuwait (including radar warning receivers and weapons) involves Super Hornets built largely to the USN’s latest Block 3 standard (with some legacy Block 2 elements reportedly retained). Taking facets of Boeing’s previously touted International Roadmap and Advanced Super Hornet, the Block 3 includes upgrades to the Raytheon AN/APG-79 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar; an Elbit Systems large area display (LAD) ‘glass’ cockpit and next-generation avionics; an infrared search and track (IRST); ‘shoulder-mounted’ conformal fuel tanks (CFTs); Integrated Defensive Electronic Counter Measures (IDECM); and new General Electric F-414-400 enhanced engines. Further to the capability enhancements, the Block 3 airframe is extended from 6,000 hours to 9,000 hours.

...

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... for-kuwait
 
744SPX
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Re: Future of western fighter production lines

Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:52 am

Ozair wrote:
Kuwait will be delayed in receiving their Bk 3 SHs ordered in 2018. Covid is cited as the reason for the delay. These SH will be a blend of Blk 2 and Blk 3 systems I expect due to some Blk 3 systems being US only. The article also mentions using a enhanced F414 engines but this is the first time I have seen that reported. That would be of interest given it was Kuwait who funded the improved thrust version of the F404 for the classic Hornet. I am also keen to see if Kuwait will maintain the same camo pattern on the new SH as they have had on the classic Hornets or if they will adopt the standard paint of other SH operators.

Covid-19 impacts Super Hornet timeline for Kuwait

Deliveries of 28 Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet combat aircraft to Kuwait have been delayed due to the ongoing Covid-19 health crisis, a company official told Janes on 14 January.

The 22 single-seat F/A-18Es and six twin-seat F/A-18Fs that were contracted in a government-to-government deal in June 2018 will be handed over to the US Navy (USN) later in 2021, instead of by the end of January as first intended.

“Covid has certainly impacted our business. We are working with the customer now on contract modifications to reflect our new timeline, and we will deliver the final Kuwait F/A-18 Super Hornet to the US Navy this summer [third quarter],” Boeing told Janes . The timeline for the USN’s final handover of the jets to the Kuwaiti Air Force has not been disclosed.

The USD2.7 billion deal for Kuwait (including radar warning receivers and weapons) involves Super Hornets built largely to the USN’s latest Block 3 standard (with some legacy Block 2 elements reportedly retained). Taking facets of Boeing’s previously touted International Roadmap and Advanced Super Hornet, the Block 3 includes upgrades to the Raytheon AN/APG-79 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar; an Elbit Systems large area display (LAD) ‘glass’ cockpit and next-generation avionics; an infrared search and track (IRST); ‘shoulder-mounted’ conformal fuel tanks (CFTs); Integrated Defensive Electronic Counter Measures (IDECM); and new General Electric F-414-400 enhanced engines. Further to the capability enhancements, the Block 3 airframe is extended from 6,000 hours to 9,000 hours.

...

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... for-kuwait


That would be interesting. I'll be watching closely to see if the F414 EPE actually makes it to production. That could have a knock-on effect for the SH in other competitions.
 
Ozair
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Re: Future of western fighter production lines

Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:17 am

744SPX wrote:
That would be interesting. I'll be watching closely to see if the F414 EPE actually makes it to production. That could have a knock-on effect for the SH in other competitions.

Unfortunately I suspect it is just poor research by Janes (the irony if true given what they used to represent).

This article from 2019
General Electric To Supply 72 Engines For US Navy, Kuwaiti Super Hornet Jets
https://www.defenseworld.net/news/25005 ... ornet_Jets

just lists the F414-GE-400 and the DSCA announcement, https://www.dsca.mil/press-media/major- ... ft-support also only lists the F414-GE-400. I suspect the writer has just google searched Blk 3 improvements and saw the enhanced engines without realising they were never funded. If a new version was funded it would almost certainly carry a different nomenclature.
 
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Challenger007
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Re: Future of western fighter production lines

Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:04 pm

Unfortunately, from time to time they try to mislead us with various non-existent facts. Perhaps some things were in development, but this does not mean that all of them went into production, that they can be purchased in the public domain or ordered anywhere.
 
744SPX
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Re: Future of western fighter production lines

Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:28 pm

Ozair wrote:
744SPX wrote:
That would be interesting. I'll be watching closely to see if the F414 EPE actually makes it to production. That could have a knock-on effect for the SH in other competitions.

Unfortunately I suspect it is just poor research by Janes (the irony if true given what they used to represent).

This article from 2019
General Electric To Supply 72 Engines For US Navy, Kuwaiti Super Hornet Jets
https://www.defenseworld.net/news/25005 ... ornet_Jets

just lists the F414-GE-400 and the DSCA announcement, https://www.dsca.mil/press-media/major- ... ft-support also only lists the F414-GE-400. I suspect the writer has just google searched Blk 3 improvements and saw the enhanced engines without realising they were never funded. If a new version was funded it would almost certainly carry a different nomenclature.


So True. Also notice how in advertisements -even by GE itself- they call the F414-INS6 the "highest thrust variant of the F414" when in actuality it has the same thrust as the -400.
 
744SPX
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Re: Future of western fighter production lines

Fri Jan 22, 2021 2:19 pm

This is an interesting article, from AWST; talks about USAF ordering more F-16's and possibly cutting F-35 procurement to just over 1000...

https://aviationweek.com/defense-space/ ... tion-shake
 
art
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Re: Future of western fighter production lines

Fri Jan 22, 2021 8:05 pm

744SPX wrote:
This is an interesting article, from AWST; talks about USAF ordering more F-16's and possibly cutting F-35 procurement to just over 1000...

https://aviationweek.com/defense-space/ ... tion-shake

Might that have anything to do with the multiple defects/shortcomings still to be sorted with F-35?

https://www.popularmechanics.com/milita ... -35-flaws/
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Future of western fighter production lines

Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:44 pm

The Philippines has been approved for a potential sale of 12 F-16 Block 70/72's, along with Harpoon and Side winder II missiles:

https://www.dsca.mil/press-media/major- ... 2-aircraft

WASHINGTON, June 24, 2021 - The State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign Military Sale to the Government of the Philippines of F-16 Block 70/72 Aircraft and related equipment for an estimated cost of $2.43 billion. The Defense Security Cooperation Agency delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale today.

The Government of the Philippines has requested to buy ten (10) F-16C Block 70/72 aircraft; two (2) F-16D Block 70/72 aircraft; fifteen (15) F100-PW-229EEP engines or F110-GE-129D engines; fifteen (15) Improved Programmable Display Generators (iPDG); fifteen (15) AN/APG-83 Advanced Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Scalable Agile Beam Radars (SABR); fifteen (15) Modular Mission Computers 7000AH; fifteen (15) LN-260 Embedded GPS/INS (EGI) with SAASM and PPS; twenty-four (24) Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM) AIM-120C-7/C-8 or equivalent; one (1) AIM-120 Guidance Section; forty-eight (48) LAU-129 missile launchers; three (3) KMU-572 Laser Joint Direct Attack Munition (LJDAM) tail kits; six (6) Mk-82 500lb bombs; six (6) Mk-82 500lb Inert training bombs; six (6) FMU-152 or FMU-139 fuzes; six (6) Sniper Advanced Targeting Pods (ATP) or Litening ATP; fifteen (15) Multifunctional Information Display System Joint Tactical Radio System (MIDS-JTRS) aircraft terminals, and; fifteen (15) M61A1 Vulcan Anti-Aircraft 20mm guns. Also included are AN/ARC-238 radios; Advanced Identification Friend or Foe with Combined Interrogator Transponder and Mode 5; Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems II (JHMCS II) or Scorpion Hybrid Optical-based Inertial Tacker (HObIT); Integrated Electronic Warfare Suite; Electronic Combat International Security Assistance Program (ECISAP) support; AN/ALE-47 Countermeasure Dispenser Systems (CMDS); Joint Mission Planning Systems (JMPS) or equivalent; AIM-120 CATM; LAU-118 launchers with Advanced Launcher Interface Computer (ALIC); LAU-117 missile launchers; DSU-38 Precision Laser Guided Sensor for LJDAM; Harpoon interface adapter kits; PGU-28 High Explosive Incendiary (HEI) ammunition; PGU-27 ammunition training rounds (non HEI); Cartridge Actuated Devices/Propellant Actuated Devices (CAD/PAD); ARD-446 impulse cartridges; ARD-863 impulse cartridges; BBU-36/B impulse cartridges; BBU-35/B impulse cartridges; MK-124 smoke flares; MJU-7/B Flare Cartridge L463; BRU‐61 Bomb Racks; BRU‐57 bomb racks; MAU‐12 bomb racks and TER‐9A triple ejection racks; weapons support, test equipment, and missile containers; chaff and flare; Night Vision Devices (NVD) and support equipment and spares; secure communications; cryptographic equipment; aircraft and personnel support and test equipment; integration and test; weapons, ammunition, pylons, launcher adaptors, weapons interfaces, fuel tanks, and attached hardware; travel pods, precision measurement equipment laboratory, calibration, and simulators; spare and repair parts, repair and return services; maps, publications, and technical documentation; studies and surveys; classified / unclassified software and software support; personnel training and training equipment; facilities and facility management, design and/or construction services; U.S. Government and contractor engineering, technical and logistics support services; and other related elements of logistical and program support. The estimated total cost is $2.43 billion.


https://www.dsca.mil/press-media/major- ... i-missiles

https://www.dsca.mil/press-media/major- ... l-missiles
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Future of western fighter production lines

Thu Sep 09, 2021 8:04 pm

The IAI production line in Israel for F-16 wings has been reopened for the renewed demand for F-16's:
https://www.aero-mag.com/f-16-wing-production-08092021

An assembly line originally established in the 1980s for F-16 wings for Lockheed Martin has resumed production at Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI).

The line was recently reopened following increased worldwide demand for the F-16 Block 70/72. The company will produce F-16 wings that will be shipped to final assembly line in Greenville, South Carolina.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Future of western fighter production lines

Fri Nov 26, 2021 9:59 pm

Featured on the front page today, Qatar's first Eurofighter lining up for its first flight. It suggests that the delivery scheduled for 2022 is on track.


Additionally, Kuwait's first Eurofighter also made its first flight last month. This program is currently facing delays of about 1 year,with the first delivery now scheduled for late 2021.
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... now-flying
 
FlapOperator
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Re: Future of western fighter production lines

Mon Nov 29, 2021 4:11 pm

seahawk wrote:
If you are always facing a risk of sanctions, it makes sense to have a diverse fleet.


It also makes sustainment, training, and integration a nightmare, and thus makes effective combat operations far more difficult.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Future of western fighter production lines

Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:16 pm

FlapOperator wrote:
seahawk wrote:
If you are always facing a risk of sanctions, it makes sense to have a diverse fleet.


It also makes sustainment, training, and integration a nightmare, and thus makes effective combat operations far more difficult.

Not having access to spare parts and munitions as a result of sanctions also makes effective combat operations quite difficult.
 
FlapOperator
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Re: Future of western fighter production lines

Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:00 am

mxaxai wrote:
Not having access to spare parts and munitions as a result of sanctions also makes effective combat operations quite difficult.


I'd argue the Iranians and South Africans did it.

Frankly, a well-trained force prior to sanctions beats a half-baked one. In both cases, the South African and Iranians benefited from a single philosophy and knowledge they were able to sustain, than pell-mell flying club that looks good on paper.
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Future of western fighter production lines

Wed Dec 01, 2021 8:30 am

FlapOperator wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
Not having access to spare parts and munitions as a result of sanctions also makes effective combat operations quite difficult.


I'd argue the Iranians and South Africans did it.

Frankly, a well-trained force prior to sanctions beats a half-baked one. In both cases, the South African and Iranians benefited from a single philosophy and knowledge they were able to sustain, than pell-mell flying club that looks good on paper.


They did .. in the 1970s and 1980s. Hard to imagine keeping a Rafale or F-35 flying today without factory support (and software updates). Has any nations this decade kept planes flying without factory support? There are a few Iranian F-14s, and some Iranian F-4s, but I *think* that's the list and those are 1970s and 1980s aircraft.

I cannot even think of a nation that's even *tried* to keep a modern fighter operating without factory support.
 
jouy31
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Re: Future of western fighter production lines

Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:45 am

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-12-03/

UAE order for 80 Rafale has been signed :-)
 
st21
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Re: Future of western fighter production lines

Fri Jun 17, 2022 8:39 am

Jordan to join F-16 Block 70 program

Jordan has officially signed a Letter of Offer and Acceptance for the sale of eight new production F-16 Block 70 aircraft.

“This F-16 acquisition reflects over 70 years of U.S. cooperation and decades of partnership with Lockheed Martin,” says Aimee Burnett, vice president, Integrated Fighter Group Business Development. “Our history partnering with Jordan strengthens regional security and helps protect citizens through 21st Century Security technologies that support critical missions today and into the future.”

The selection of new production F-16 aircraft extends Jordan’s existing fleet of F-16s, bringing advanced capabilities to the mission combined with affordable operating and lifecycle costs.


https://news.lockheedmartin.com/06-16-2 ... 70-Program
 
art
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Re: Future of western fighter production lines

Sun Jun 19, 2022 8:50 pm

Eurofighter, for all the lack of focus historically on its development and production leading to high costs (multiple FAL's, fragmented objective strategies on radar development, for example), looks to be receiving orders for about 40 more from Germany, about 40 more from Spain, possibly 24 from Egypt (sourced from Italy) and possibly 48 from Saudi Arabia (sourced from UK). That would likely keep the lines in Germany and Spain active for several more years and possibly Italy and UK, too. I wonder if the development of an EW version will also result in additional orders for that version from existing users, too.

100-200 more Eurofighters to be produced on top of existing orders before the FAL's close their doors?
 
mxaxai
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Re: Future of western fighter production lines

Mon Jul 25, 2022 9:15 am

Not sure where to put this but it doesn't really warrant its own thread.

Germany and UK suspend Eurofighter operations due to potential ejector seat issues
Citing problems in one of the components of the seat ejection system [the pyrotechnic cartridges], the Luftwaffe decided to preemptively suspend part of its fleet until the operational safety of the pilots is verified.
[...]
The measure was followed shortly afterwards by the Royal Air Force, which announced the suspension of «non-essential» operations of its Eurofighter and BAE Hawk aircraft. As an immediate consequence, the Red Arrows flyover scheduled for the closing of the Farnborough Airshow was cancelled.

https://www.aviacionline.com/2022/07/ge ... at-issues/

Spanish EF reportedly also grounded until all ejection systems have been checked, no confirmation yet from Italy. Only essential operations remain while training is suspended.
 
angad84
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Re: Future of western fighter production lines

Tue Jul 26, 2022 11:13 pm

mxaxai wrote:
Not sure where to put this but it doesn't really warrant its own thread.

Germany and UK suspend Eurofighter operations due to potential ejector seat issues
Citing problems in one of the components of the seat ejection system [the pyrotechnic cartridges], the Luftwaffe decided to preemptively suspend part of its fleet until the operational safety of the pilots is verified.
[...]
The measure was followed shortly afterwards by the Royal Air Force, which announced the suspension of «non-essential» operations of its Eurofighter and BAE Hawk aircraft. As an immediate consequence, the Red Arrows flyover scheduled for the closing of the Farnborough Airshow was cancelled.

https://www.aviacionline.com/2022/07/ge ... at-issues/

Spanish EF reportedly also grounded until all ejection systems have been checked, no confirmation yet from Italy. Only essential operations remain while training is suspended.

https://www.navair.navy.mil/news/Produc ... cement-CAD

Seems like a Martin Baker supply chain issue.
 
RJMAZ
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Re: Future of western fighter production lines

Wed Jul 27, 2022 1:43 am

kitplane01 wrote:
I cannot even think of a nation that's even *tried* to keep a modern fighter operating without factory support.

Australia tried to keep the F-111 operating without factory support. Boy was that an expensive lesson and the RAAF even tried to do upgrades themselves. It got retired only a couple years after the upgrades were complete.

The F-111 should have been retired 10 years earlier and replaced with F-15E's. The combined cost of upgrading the F-111 and classic Hornet could have entirely paid for the F-15E purchase. Keeping old fighters flying is very expensive. Another example is replacing the F-15C with F-15SE.
 
GDB
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Re: Future of western fighter production lines

Sun Jul 31, 2022 7:55 pm

This excellent channel has been doing deep dives into Ukraine, however here is one about defence economics, not just aircraft but a heavy concentration on them, future ones will look at the European and Russian/Chinese sectors, this one being US centric;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Z_gTGJc7nQ&t=924s
 
art
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Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:46 am

Re: Future of western fighter production lines

Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:17 pm

In this article the writer speculates that Turkey's desire to buy more F-16 may be thwarted by the US Congress.

https://www.dailysabah.com/opinion/op-e ... uire-f-16s

If Turkey is not allowed to buy F-16 or permission is given but with restrictions on use that Turkey finds unacceptable, will Turkey turn to Eurofighter for new fighters - probably wanting to set up a new FAL in Turkey? According to Wiki the country still has around 50 F-4 in service and over 200 F-16. While pushing its 5G TF-X programme forward, that aircraft is unlikely to enter service for 10 or more years with a yet-to-be-developed joint venture engine so Eurofighter looks the best non-US prospect to cover F-4 and F-16 retirements.
 
stratable
Posts: 191
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Re: Future of western fighter production lines

Fri Aug 05, 2022 6:40 pm

art wrote:
In this article the writer speculates that Turkey's desire to buy more F-16 may be thwarted by the US Congress.

https://www.dailysabah.com/opinion/op-e ... uire-f-16s

If Turkey is not allowed to buy F-16 or permission is given but with restrictions on use that Turkey finds unacceptable, will Turkey turn to Eurofighter for new fighters - probably wanting to set up a new FAL in Turkey? According to Wiki the country still has around 50 F-4 in service and over 200 F-16. While pushing its 5G TF-X programme forward, that aircraft is unlikely to enter service for 10 or more years with a yet-to-be-developed joint venture engine so Eurofighter looks the best non-US prospect to cover F-4 and F-16 retirements.


Eurofighter would be a more much expensive platform than the F16 though, no? I can't see any of the partner nations agreeing to setting up a new production line in Turkey, especially not in a timely manner.
I am also not sure if Turkey would get approval to fly the Typhoon, for the same reasons that the US might be holding back the F16 or at least a fully equipped F16.
Is the Gripen E more comparable to the F16, would that be an option? Not sure about Rafales, they're probably out of the picture given that Greece flies them.
 
art
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Re: Future of western fighter production lines

Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:29 pm

stratable wrote:
art wrote:
In this article the writer speculates that Turkey's desire to buy more F-16 may be thwarted by the US Congress.

https://www.dailysabah.com/opinion/op-e ... uire-f-16s

If Turkey is not allowed to buy F-16 or permission is given but with restrictions on use that Turkey finds unacceptable, will Turkey turn to Eurofighter for new fighters - probably wanting to set up a new FAL in Turkey? According to Wiki the country still has around 50 F-4 in service and over 200 F-16. While pushing its 5G TF-X programme forward, that aircraft is unlikely to enter service for 10 or more years with a yet-to-be-developed joint venture engine so Eurofighter looks the best non-US prospect to cover F-4 and F-16 retirements.


Eurofighter would be a more much expensive platform than the F16 though, no? I can't see any of the partner nations agreeing to setting up a new production line in Turkey, especially not in a timely manner.
I am also not sure if Turkey would get approval to fly the Typhoon, for the same reasons that the US might be holding back the F16 or at least a fully equipped F16.
Is the Gripen E more comparable to the F16, would that be an option? Not sure about Rafales, they're probably out of the picture given that Greece flies them.

I'm sure you are right that Eurofighter would be more expensive than F-16 or Gripen E but I wonder whether Sweden would approve its export, given Turkey's ongoing war against the Kurds. The Kurdish PYD organisation is seen as a terrorist organisation by Turkey.

Swedish Foreign Minister Ann Linde has been the most prominent figure in Sweden’s relations with the PYD, and her meetings with the group's members drew a harsh response from Turkey. At a 2020 news conference, Linde and her Turkish counterpart, Mevlut Cavusoglu, snapped at each other over Turkey’s presence in north Syria. Tensions rose further when a Swedish delegation visited a PYD-controlled area.

Linde also held several phone discussions with PYD leaders Turkey has classed as terrorists, promising that Sweden would boost financial assistance in northeastern Syria to $376m in 2023.


https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/swed ... ed-history

Like you I don't see Turkey operating Rafale due to its adversary Greece doing so. So what non-US fighter might Turkey buy? I don't see Turkey buying from Russia. I think of the hiatus that followed the S-400 purchase. FA-50? Performance does not compare to F-16. Same is true for Tejas Mk1A. What's left except Eurofighter if Congress blocks F-16?

Of course, I could be wrong in my thinking and in any event there is no certainty that F-16 will be blocked. US recently supplied F110 tin June o be used in the TF-X prototype so the country might not be seen in such a bad light by the US.
 
RJMAZ
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Re: Future of western fighter production lines

Sat Aug 06, 2022 1:56 am

I would not be surprised if Turkey tried to purchase F-15 Eagles. The radar, cockpit and engines can be placed into a locally made stealth frame.
 
LHAM
Posts: 73
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Re: Future of western fighter production lines

Sat Aug 06, 2022 8:06 am

RJMAZ if Turkey can't get approval from the US Congress to buy new F-16s and further more approval to upgrade its existing F-16 fleet how are they going to get the green light for buying F-15s?
 
art
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Re: Future of western fighter production lines

Sat Aug 06, 2022 4:27 pm

stratable wrote:
Eurofighter would be a more much expensive platform than the F16 though, no? I can't see any of the partner nations agreeing to setting up a new production line in Turkey, especially not in a timely manner.


Re: the timely manner to set up a FAL, you could well be right. Eurofighter refusing local assembly to Turkey? I am not so sure. Originally Saudi Arabia was going to assemble Typhoons from knock down kits (but never did anything to organise it). Japan was offered licence production of Typhoon if they ordered it.

https://www.defencetalk.com/eurofighter ... pan-37315/

Turkey would want enough frames to justify building a FAL, I think. 75+? 100+? I read sources saying their TF-X will fly 2025/2026 and enter service around 2030 but I think there is a lot of nationalistic wishful thinking going on there. 2035-2040 is more realistic to me, so possibly time enough to replace their F-4 and some of their F-16 with Typhoon before Turkish Air Force starts using TF-X (if F-16 is denied them).
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Future of western fighter production lines

Sun Aug 07, 2022 5:22 am

Or .. Turkey buys JF-17s. Available without requiring an American engine or avionics. Can do about-sort-of the same role as an older F-16, and clearly better in several ways than an ancient F-4.
 
LHAM
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Re: Future of western fighter production lines

Sun Aug 07, 2022 4:43 pm

Wouldn't buying essentially a Chinese jet like the FC-1/JF-17 further strain its relationship with NATO?
Especially after all the fuss China is making around Taiwan?
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Future of western fighter production lines

Mon Aug 08, 2022 5:05 am

LHAM wrote:
Wouldn't buying essentially a Chinese jet like the FC-1/JF-17 further strain its relationship with NATO?
Especially after all the fuss China is making around Taiwan?


I'm sure they would sell it as buying a Pakistani airframe.

It's hard to get mad at Turkey for buying someone else's fighter if you won't sell them your fighter.

Interesting question: would it be better for Turkey to buy the JF-17 or the FA-50? The FA-50 requires an American engine and Israeli radar, but the JF-17 requires a Russian engine and Chinese radar. If you're Turkey, there are not a lot of good choices, so what's the least bad choice? Surely operating F-4s is not the right answer!

The FA-50 is probably available more quickly than the JF-17. Both are super cheap to anyone who can afford a new built F-16.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Future of western fighter production lines

Mon Aug 08, 2022 6:12 am

kitplane01 wrote:
LHAM wrote:
Wouldn't buying essentially a Chinese jet like the FC-1/JF-17 further strain its relationship with NATO?
Especially after all the fuss China is making around Taiwan?


I'm sure they would sell it as buying a Pakistani airframe.

It's hard to get mad at Turkey for buying someone else's fighter if you won't sell them your fighter.

Interesting question: would it be better for Turkey to buy the JF-17 or the FA-50? The FA-50 requires an American engine and Israeli radar, but the JF-17 requires a Russian engine and Chinese radar. If you're Turkey, there are not a lot of good choices, so what's the least bad choice? Surely operating F-4s is not the right answer!

The FA-50 is probably available more quickly than the JF-17. Both are super cheap to anyone who can afford a new built F-16.


Or since the Chinese are now selling the Chengdu J-10C to Pakistan they might as well sell it to the Turks. Chinese engine, Chinese radar, no Russian equipment.
 
art
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Re: Future of western fighter production lines

Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:14 am

This youtube link claims that Turkey and the United States will hold a technical meeting on August 15 to renegotiate the purchase of F-16 Viper (Block 70). It reports that Turkey wants to procure 40 new F-16 and upgrades for 80 of its existing F-16.
PS The link reports that Congress voted to refuse supply unless Turkey agreed not to violate Greek airspace with the aircraft supplied.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEVuzkNJrYw

This youtube link says that UK is interested in selling Eurofighter to Turkey, the matter being discussed during the UK PM and Defence Secretary's recent visit to Turkey.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fabphxhnMYs

On that basis, I would not be surprised if Turkey elected to go for Eurofighter if no F-16 deal is forthcoming. If Turkey went down that route it could cover any inordinate delay in its own TF-X becoming available. When the TF-X would be available with a new, Turkish-built engine is very uncertain, given that no company has been selected to design, develop, test and manufacture the new engine so far.
 
art
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Re: Future of western fighter production lines

Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:50 am

Talking about the future of western fighter production lines, the first Gripen E (known as F-39 in Brazil) should emerge from the Brazilian production line next year. Brazil has ordered 36, most of which will be built in Sweden. A top up to 40 was announced recently. Recent news is that Brazil has started negotiations with Sweden for the extra 4 plus plus 26 more F-39.

A Saab confirmou que as negociações para o segundo lote de 26 caças F-39 Gripen E/F com a Força Aérea Brasileira (FAB) já foi iniciada.

https://aeromagazine.uol.com.br/artigo/ ... ripen.html

My translation: SAAB has confirmed that negotiations have been initiated with FAB (Brazilian Air Force) for a second batch of 26 Gripen E/F fighters
 
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kitplane01
Posts: 2546
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Re: Future of western fighter production lines

Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:53 am

Kiwirob wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
LHAM wrote:
Wouldn't buying essentially a Chinese jet like the FC-1/JF-17 further strain its relationship with NATO?
Especially after all the fuss China is making around Taiwan?


I'm sure they would sell it as buying a Pakistani airframe.

It's hard to get mad at Turkey for buying someone else's fighter if you won't sell them your fighter.

Interesting question: would it be better for Turkey to buy the JF-17 or the FA-50? The FA-50 requires an American engine and Israeli radar, but the JF-17 requires a Russian engine and Chinese radar. If you're Turkey, there are not a lot of good choices, so what's the least bad choice? Surely operating F-4s is not the right answer!

The FA-50 is probably available more quickly than the JF-17. Both are super cheap to anyone who can afford a new built F-16.


Or since the Chinese are now selling the Chengdu J-10C to Pakistan they might as well sell it to the Turks. Chinese engine, Chinese radar, no Russian equipment.


That would totally make sense. I wonder how the price of an J-10 compares to an FA-50 or JF-17 or F-16???
 
bennett123
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Re: Future of western fighter production lines

Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:15 am

art wrote:
This youtube link claims that Turkey and the United States will hold a technical meeting on August 15 to renegotiate the purchase of F-16 Viper (Block 70). It reports that Turkey wants to procure 40 new F-16 and upgrades for 80 of its existing F-16.
PS The link reports that Congress voted to refuse supply unless Turkey agreed not to violate Greek airspace with the aircraft supplied.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEVuzkNJrYw

This youtube link says that UK is interested in selling Eurofighter to Turkey, the matter being discussed during the UK PM and Defence Secretary's recent visit to Turkey.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fabphxhnMYs

On that basis, I would not be surprised if Turkey elected to go for Eurofighter if no F-16 deal is forthcoming. If Turkey went down that route it could cover any inordinate delay in its own TF-X becoming available. When the TF-X would be available with a new, Turkish-built engine is very uncertain, given that no company has been selected to design, develop, test and manufacture the new engine so far.


Doubt that they could buy Eurofighters without the same restriction.

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