VSMUT
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Updated: Bulgarian parliament clears F-16V buy for second time

Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:08 pm

http://www.janes.com/article/69855/bulg ... for-gripen

Bulgaria has selected the Saab Gripen as its new future fighter aircraft, the country's interim deputy prime minister reportedly announced on 26 April.

In apparently securing selection, the Gripen beat-off competition from the Lockheed Martin F-16 Fighting Falcon, which Portugal was offering second-hand, and from the Eurofighter Typhoon, surplus models of which were being offered by Italy.
Last edited by SQ22 on Tue Jul 30, 2019 3:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Title updated
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Bulgaria selects Gripen

Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:04 pm

Nice choice.
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LightningZ71
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Re: Bulgaria selects Gripen

Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:11 pm

Of note, this is for the existing C/D model, which was price matched against the competing offer of refurbished F-16s from Portugal. This is requiring SAAB to return capabilities for C/D production that were in the process of removal and being replaced for E model production. Also, the current agreement appears to be for 8 units and support.
 
angad84
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Re: Bulgaria selects Gripen

Thu Apr 27, 2017 4:20 pm

LightningZ71 wrote:
Of note, this is for the existing C/D model, which was price matched against the competing offer of refurbished F-16s from Portugal. This is requiring SAAB to return capabilities for C/D production that were in the process of removal and being replaced for E model production. Also, the current agreement appears to be for 8 units and support.


Nope. When I was there last year they were putting together a bunch of new-build C/Ds because they were confident they could place them in short order. I assume those were for this order, plus other potentials coming up shortly (Croatia, Botswana etc). I don't think a company like Saab can afford to mess with production -- it may well be cheaper to build frames that don't get taken up or have to be sold at a discount rather than mess with the line.

Cheers
A
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Bulgaria selects Gripen

Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:35 pm

angad84 wrote:
LightningZ71 wrote:
Of note, this is for the existing C/D model, which was price matched against the competing offer of refurbished F-16s from Portugal. This is requiring SAAB to return capabilities for C/D production that were in the process of removal and being replaced for E model production. Also, the current agreement appears to be for 8 units and support.


Nope. When I was there last year they were putting together a bunch of new-build C/Ds because they were confident they could place them in short order. I assume those were for this order, plus other potentials coming up shortly (Croatia, Botswana etc). I don't think a company like Saab can afford to mess with production -- it may well be cheaper to build frames that don't get taken up or have to be sold at a discount rather than mess with the line.

Cheers
A


how many "white" tails did SAAB produce?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
VSMUT
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Re: Bulgaria selects Gripen

Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:52 pm

LightningZ71 wrote:
Of note, this is for the existing C/D model, which was price matched against the competing offer of refurbished F-16s from Portugal. This is requiring SAAB to return capabilities for C/D production that were in the process of removal and being replaced for E model production. Also, the current agreement appears to be for 8 units and support.


SAAB doesnt have a big and unflexible production-line like what LM uses for the JSF. They can build pretty much anything there is demand for in the same building. They did it in the past too, like when Denmark decided to get 5 extra F-35s after the series production ended.
 
LightningZ71
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Re: Bulgaria selects Gripen

Fri Apr 28, 2017 12:20 am

Apparently the source article was amiss then. Either way, the C/D is not a bad plane, just a bit more limited.
 
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SAS A340
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Re: Bulgaria selects Gripen

Fri Apr 28, 2017 8:57 am

Great news :)
It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: Bulgaria selects Gripen

Fri Apr 28, 2017 5:51 pm

Congratulations!
 
prebennorholm
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Re: Bulgaria selects Gripen

Sat Apr 29, 2017 2:23 am

VSMUT wrote:
SAAB doesnt have a big and unflexible production-line like what LM uses for the JSF. They can build pretty much anything there is demand for in the same building. They did it in the past too, like when Denmark decided to get 5 extra F-35s after the series production ended.

That was 42 years ago, and they came at roughly double price. Maybe a few things have changed at SAAB during the last 42 years, maybe not. :o

The extra 5 planes were two seat trainers. The reason was that the Lockheed T-33 was retired, and wasn't replaced with a dedicated trainer. That put an extra burden on the existing 6 two seaters, even if most of the initial jet training was done in Canada or USA.

Extra TF-100F and TF-104G were bought second hand for the same reason.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
VSMUT
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Re: Bulgaria selects Gripen

Sat Apr 29, 2017 8:50 am

prebennorholm wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
SAAB doesnt have a big and unflexible production-line like what LM uses for the JSF. They can build pretty much anything there is demand for in the same building. They did it in the past too, like when Denmark decided to get 5 extra F-35s after the series production ended.

That was 42 years ago, and they came at roughly double price. Maybe a few things have changed at SAAB during the last 42 years, maybe not. :o



If anything, SAABs production setup has only become more flexible since.
 
angad84
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Re: Bulgaria selects Gripen

Sat Apr 29, 2017 11:45 am

VSMUT wrote:
prebennorholm wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
SAAB doesnt have a big and unflexible production-line like what LM uses for the JSF. They can build pretty much anything there is demand for in the same building. They did it in the past too, like when Denmark decided to get 5 extra F-35s after the series production ended.

That was 42 years ago, and they came at roughly double price. Maybe a few things have changed at SAAB during the last 42 years, maybe not. :o



If anything, SAABs production setup has only become more flexible since.

Maybe FAL, but supply chain does not like stuff like this, and the Gripen is heavily subcontracted.

There is a reason the company elected to build white tails instead of running the C/D line in fits and starts.
 
Ozair
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Re: Bulgaria selects Gripen

Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:35 am

The on again off again Bulgaria contest continues. Apparently they are keen on new build F-16s but both Lm and Saab have bene offering a lot of domestic incentives.

Bulgarian Leader Favors U.S. Jets to Replace MiGs

Bulgarian Prime Minister Boyko Borisov says U.S. F-16 fighter jets are the best choice to replace the Balkan NATO member’s aging fleet of Soviet-designed MiG-29s.

Borisov spoke on December 14 before the second day of an EU summit in Sofia.

Bulgaria has budgeted 900 million euros ($1 billion) for the purchase of at least eight fighter jets.

The Defense Ministry is reviewing offers from the United States for new Lockheed Martin F-16s and Boeing F-18s, new Gripen jets from Sweden, and used Eurofighters from Italy.

Borisov told reporters he did not want to influence the process, but he said that "from what I have heard from the pilots, a new F-16 is a significantly better aircraft than all the rest that are on offer."

Borisov and Defense Minister Krasimir Karakachanov are to hold separate talks on December 15 with U.S. Deputy Secretary of State John Sullivan, who arrived in Sofia on December 14 as part of a tour of Central Europe and the Western Balkans to shore up support against what U.S. officials call “Russia’s aggression on the region.”

Sullivan on December 13 attended the signing of an agreement under which Slovakia is to buy 14 F-16 jets from Lockheed Martin as it seeks to replace its Soviet MiG-29 jets.

"Lockheed Martin has made what I think is a very attractive proposal [to Bulgaria] for the sale of fighter aircraft that other NATO allies have purchased that would make those aircraft, if purchased here, interoperable with those NATO partners," Sullivan said.

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... g_29s.html

Some further background on the new competition is avilable here, http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article ... 10-01-2018
 
mig21umd
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Re: Bulgaria selects Gripen

Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:44 am

Touch off topic but related a bit too. Croatia selected 12 F-16 Barak's last year from Israel (they were up against the Gripen in the end) but the deal has run into a bit of a big hurdle the past few weeks, (Lockheed Martin and the USA). They are claiming Israel unfairly offered boosted up with modern tech F-16's at a third of the cost against what was one of the final 5 bidders the F-16 block 70/72.

I wonder if this swayed the decision away from upgraded Portuguese F-16's (have they ever been upgraded or are they just refurbished) as they could have faced a similar problem?

Apparently the US wants the F-16 to be delivered to Croatia the way the were delivered to Israel, so minus all the upgrades. Croatia is demanding a solution be found by year end otherwise they could cancel the deal but Croatia seem to want the aircraft they originally agreed to with Israel or again, the deal could be in jeopardy meaning Israel and the US have to find a solution which would allow the original deal to go ahead without Croatia incurring any extra costs.
Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you long to return
 
Ozair
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Re: Bulgaria selects Gripen

Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:34 am

Saab looks to have improved their offer by adding an additional couple of aircraft, going from eight to ten, for their proposal.

In the context of this order, I don’t see the used Tranche One Eurofighters having a chance against new F-16s, F-18s or Gripens.

Saab sweetens offer to supply Gripen fighter jets to Bulgaria
Sweden's Saab said on Friday that it submitted an improved offer for supply of new Gripen C/D fighter jets to Bulgaria, and is now proposing to deliver 10 jets instead of the initially proposed eight.
"The optimised offer meets all mandatory requirements set by Bulgaria, is within the limits of the set budget and the first jets will be delivered within 24 months after the contract has been signed," Saab said in a statement.

The new offer will significantly improve the operating capabilities of the Bulgarian Air Force, Saab noted.

In October, Saab offered to supply eight new Gripen C/D fighter jets equipped with the newest MS20 configuration to Bulgaria in response to the request for proposals received from the defence ministry in Sofia.

The Gripen Material System 20 (MS20) capability enhancement for Gripen C-series involves both hardware and software upgrades, providing improvements and new functionality both in terms of the aircraft itself and the ancillary support and training systems, according to the manufacturer.

Also in October, Bulgaria's defence ministry said that the US, Sweden and Italy have responded to Bulgaria's request for proposals for supply of up to 16 fighter jets to replace its ageing fleet of Russian-made combat aircraft. The US offered to supply new F-16 or F-18 jets, while Italy offered used Eurofighter aircraft.

In June, Bulgaria’s parliament approved a plan for the acquisition of NATO-compatible combat aircraft in two stages. The first stage envisages the purchase of no less than eight aircraft for an estimated total of some 1.8 billion levs ($1.1 billion/ 920.3 million euro).

NATO said earlier this year that it expects Bulgaria's defence spending to rise to 1.56% of the country's GDP in 2018, from an estimated 1.27% in 2017. Bulgaria's defence spending amounted to 1.26% of GDP in 2016. At the NATO summit in Wales in 2014, Bulgaria committed to a defence spending target of 2% of GDP, to be reached in the following 10 years.

https://seenews.com/news/saab-sweetens- ... ria-636748
 
Ozair
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Re: Bulgaria selects Gripen

Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:55 pm

Not without controversy the Bulgarian Government has decided to open negotiations with the US for the F-16V. Should be a good aircraft for them to operate for a significant period of time. With neighbour Romania recently acquiring F-16s and looking to acquire more, Greece operating the F-16, as well as Slovakia also acquiring the F-16V in the next few years there should be plenty of spares and long term maintenance knowledge around.

Parliament Assigns Government to Hold Negotiations with US on Acquisition of New Fighter Aircraft

In a 130-84 vote with no abstentions, Parliament Wednesday assigned the government to draw up a draft international agreement and hold negotiations with the United States on Bulgaria's acquisition of a new type of fighter aircraft, F-16V, Block 70. The negotiations mandate was supported by the MPs of GERB, 23 MPs of the Movement for Rights and Freedoms (MRF), 11 MPs of the United Patriots, and two independent MPs. The MPs who voted against were 66 from the Bulgarian Socialist Party (BSP), four MPs from Volya and 14 MPs from the United Patriots.

Parliament tasked the Prime Minister to make arrangements and come up with a team to draw up the draft agreement and conduct the negotiations. On the team will be the ministers of defence, economy, foreign affairs, and finance.

The draft agreement may deviate from the initial spending requirements.

The debates on the motion took up almost the entire plenary day.

MRF leader Mustafa Karadayi said that his party categorically supports the motion and Bulgaria's Euro-Atlantic orientation.

BSP leader Kornelia Ninova said that her party is in favour of the Army's modernization but is against the motion for several reasons, such as the unknown financial parametres of the deal and how much it will cost the Bulgarian tax payers. In her words, this decision once again pits the powerholders and the presidential institution against each other. "Last but not least, the strategic decision will be taken by GERB, the MRF and VMRO - does this look like a new ruling coalition to you?" she asked.

Socialist MP Roumen Gechev compared the decision to "the obituary of the Bulgarian aviation, which is on its knees now while the new aircraft will arrive in five years' time". The BSP projects that the outlay for the aircraft may exceed two billion leva, up from the current cap of 1.8 billion leva.

The United Patriots were divided on the motion. The leader of the National Front for Salvation of Bulgaria, Valeri Simeonov, said that Bulgaria could better and cheaper safeguard its airspace with anti-aircraft missile systems. "It is ridiculous to rely on eight, or possibly 16, aircraft to defend against countries who have many more," Simeonov said. He argued that the acquisition of the aircraft is insensible spending, and that Bulgaria should have chosen a European maker.

United Patriots Floor Leader and Ataka leader Volen Siderov said that "since the United States has been using four military bases in Bulgaria free of charge for years, the country can give Bulgaria the fighter jets also free of charge".

http://www.bta.bg/en/c/DF/id/1940747
 
Ozair
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Re: Bulgaria selects Gripen

Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:37 am

Bulgaria is finally getting on with the process of acquiring the F-16V.

Bulgaria approves draft deals to buy F-16s in record defense procurement

Bulgaria’s Council of Ministers has approved four draft agreements with the United States for a total of almost $1.3 billion to acquire eight F-16 Block-70 fighter jets and related equipment from Lockheed Martin.

Before the final agreements are signed, they must be approved by the Bulgarian parliament and the U.S. Congress.

Bulgarian Defence Minister Krasimir Karakachanov said the cabinet hoped that U.S. lawmakers could reduce the final price by about $60 million, as reported by local daily Dnes.

Of the eight aircraft, six fighter jets are to be supplied in a one-seat variant, and two aircraft in a two-seat variant. Deliveries are scheduled to be completed by 2023. The Bulgarian Air Force plans to replace its outdated Soviet-designed Mikoyan MiG-29 fighter jets with the F-16s.

...

https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... ocurement/
 
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Devilfish
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Re: Bulgaria selects Gripen

Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:12 pm

Unfortunately, the Bulgarian president vetoed the purchase bill..... :thumbsdown: .....

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... se-459848/

Quote:
"That 'shortened legislative procedure' means that several issues such as 'prices, warranties, delivery times and penalties' were not clear.

'Bulgaria needs a multirole aircraft, which is achieved not only by its qualities, but also by a full package of equipment, support and personnel training. A clear answer to the public is required as to whether this is actually achieved by the contracts,' says Radev.

He has resubmitted the procurement law for another parliamentary discussion on 26 July, where the veto could be overruled with a vote of at least 121 members of the 240-seat assembly."
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
art
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Re: Bulgaria selects Gripen

Wed Jul 24, 2019 9:32 am

Quote:
"That 'shortened legislative procedure' means that several issues such as 'prices, warranties, delivery times and penalties' were not clear."

Not clear because the supplier did not supply all the required info in a clear fashion? Or not clear because too little time was available to examine the information provided?

We will see in a few days. If the F-16 deal is still not approved 26th July then where does the re-equipment programme go next?
 
Ozair
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Re: Bulgaria selects Gripen

Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:22 am

art wrote:
Quote:
"That 'shortened legislative procedure' means that several issues such as 'prices, warranties, delivery times and penalties' were not clear."

Not clear because the supplier did not supply all the required info in a clear fashion? Or not clear because too little time was available to examine the information provided?

We will see in a few days. If the F-16 deal is still not approved 26th July then where does the re-equipment programme go next?

The way I read it is that the President was unhappy that the bill wasn't debated for longer in Parliament, essentially that there wasn't enough consideration. I still expect it to go through, even though the President has been very critical of it.

If it doesn't the result is likely to be another competition which the F-16 will likely win again...
 
art
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Re: Bulgaria selects Gripen

Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:43 pm

Veto overturned...

The Bulgarian President points out that a new debate in parliament is needed to give a clear answer to the question how Bulgaria’s interests are defended with regard to the purchase price – 1.1 billion euro, excluding VAT -- with 100 percent advance payment and a delivery deadline for the aircraft of no less than 4-5 years, hidden and unspecified costs which Bulgaria will have to pay afterwards.


http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... chase.html

Sounds to me like OEM is not giving all info required to make an informed decision ('hidden and unspecified costs which Bulgaria will have to pay afterwards'). LM wants Bulgaria to hand over a blank cheque, national assembly agrees, president does not?
 
art
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Re: Bulgaria selects Gripen

Fri Jul 26, 2019 12:44 pm

Presidential veto overturned again 26th July. I have no idea whether there is a limit to how many times the president can veto nor how many times the national assembly can overturn a veto.

The National Assembly has again voted to ratify the law on the four contracts for the purchase, equipment, maintenance and services of fighters F-16 Block 70, which President Rumen Radev vetoed.


http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... racts.html
 
UnMAXed
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Re: Bulgaria selects Gripen

Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:00 pm

with 100 percent advance payment and a delivery deadline for the aircraft of no less than 4-5 years

That doesn't sound right to me. Are those really the terms the Bulgarian government negotiated with LM?
 
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Aesma
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Re: Updated: Bulgarian president vetoes F-16V purchase

Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:32 pm

Yeah it doesn't make sense, especially considering the four contracts are not for things you get right away, services and maintenance is over a period of time, you're not going to pay for that in advance, at most agree a price.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
art
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Re: Updated: Bulgarian president vetoes F-16V purchase

Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:39 pm

Contract firmed up:

Bulgaria has a deadline of 3-4-5 September to transfer the money under the contracts, or a total of BGN 2.2 billion. With them, our country will buy eight new aircraft for the needs of the Air Force.


http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... zette.html
 
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Amazonski
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Re: Updated: Bulgarian president vetoes F-16V purchase

Tue Jul 30, 2019 3:14 pm

Bulgaria finally made the right choice and didn't fall into the Gripen C/D trap. Just a small detail: F-16V is a modernization package. This is what Greece is going to get for their existing block. 52. The newly build Vipers for Bulgaria and Slovakia are designated F-16 block 70.
 
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SQ22
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Re: Updated: Bulgarian president vetoes F-16V purchase

Tue Jul 30, 2019 3:15 pm

art wrote:
Contract firmed up:

Bulgaria has a deadline of 3-4-5 September to transfer the money under the contracts, or a total of BGN 2.2 billion. With them, our country will buy eight new aircraft for the needs of the Air Force.


http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... zette.html


Here is an article from FlightGlobal on that subject which gives a bit more detailed information on the process:

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... im-459988/
 
Ozair
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Re: Updated: Bulgarian parliament clears F-16V buy for second time

Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:52 am

Well that didn’t take long. Bulgaria have transferred the funds already to the US so expect the contracts for the FMS sale to LM and other subcontractors to start coming.

Bulgaria makes F-16 payment

The Bulgarian Ministry of Defence (MoD) announced on its website on 12 August that it had transferred USD1.2 billion to the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) on 8 August for the procurement of F-16 Block 70 combat aircraft.

The ministry said the DSCA's confirmation of receipt marks the related contracts' entry into force and the beginning of their implementation. The contracts, which cover the US Foreign Military Sale (FMS) of eight F-16 Block 70 fighters and related equipment, maintenance, and services to Bulgaria, were signed by Defence Minister Krasimir Karakachanov on 11 July and approved by parliament on 19 July.

...

https://www.janes.com/article/90460/bul ... 16-payment
 
trex8
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Re: Updated: Bulgarian parliament clears F-16V buy for second time

Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:43 am

They’re either considered such a bad credit risk or they’ve been screwed over. It’s almost unheard of to require such a large portion of the contract to be paid upfront unless delivery is imminent of goods already manufactured
 
Ozair
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Re: Updated: Bulgarian parliament clears F-16V buy for second time

Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:54 am

trex8 wrote:
They’re either considered such a bad credit risk or they’ve been screwed over. It’s almost unheard of to require such a large portion of the contract to be paid upfront unless delivery is imminent of goods already manufactured

I believe, based on an article I read the other day, it may have been associated with securing their place in the production queue. Greenville isn’t manufacturing at a high rate so putting the funding down now likely secured their slots given other orders that are occurring around them.

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