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Nean1
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Re: Embraer KC-390 News and Discussion Thread

Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:24 pm

Hungary signs contract for the acquisition of two KC-390 Millennium multi-mission aircraft

only in portuguese> https://www.cavok.com.br/hungria-assina ... millennium

"..The KC-390 for the Hungarian Armed Forces will be the first in the world with the configuration option for the Intensive Care Unit, an essential resource for the performance of humanitarian missions. The aircraft fully meets the requirements of the Hungarian Armed Forces and can carry out various types of military and civilian missions, including Humanitarian Support, Medical Evacuation, Search and Rescue, Cargo and Troop Transport, Precision Cargo Launch, Parachutist Operations and AAR . These KC-390s are fully compatible with NATO operations, not only in terms of hardware, but also in their avionics and communications configuration. In addition, the KC-390's refueling system, probe and basket, allows the aircraft to refuel the Hungarian JAS 39 Gripen, as well as other aircraft using the same technology.
 
docmtl
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Re: Embraer KC-390 News and Discussion Thread

Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:11 pm

Since:
1: The Embraer-Boeing JV to market the KC-390 seems to be dead on arrival (never say never...).
2: Two NATO countries (Portugal and Hungary) have chosen the KC-390 as their primary transport-refuelling aircraft.
3: Embraer is probably looking for other partners to boost their customer's base and dilute cost (see Embraer-Boeing JV...)

Which partner would be a best fit in this scenario:

A: SAAB - already partnering with Embraer on the Grippen NG, maybe Sweden would be another customer in this scenario;
B: Airbus - the KC-390 would fill the gap between their largest refuelling jet (A330-derived), A-400 turboprop (much larger than the KC-390) and the smaller C-295.
C: India - They have an interest in partnering with Embraer on the E2 line, and they're avid buyers of military aircraft. Could the KC-390 be the first step to a future larger JV ?
D: None of the above ?
E: Your choice for a JV is ?...

My $0.02

docmtl
 
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SAS A340
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Re: Embraer KC-390 News and Discussion Thread

Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:02 pm

I would say that Sweden could be a very possible customer for the KC-390, I say it´s 50/50 between the C-130j and KC-390 and the A400 as a long shot. All of them being very nice aircraft. :thumbsup:
It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
 
Nean1
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Re: Embraer KC-390 News and Discussion Thread

Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:49 pm

docmtl wrote:
Since:
1: The Embraer-Boeing JV to market the KC-390 seems to be dead on arrival (never say never...).
2: Two NATO countries (Portugal and Hungary) have chosen the KC-390 as their primary transport-refuelling aircraft.
3: Embraer is probably looking for other partners to boost their customer's base and dilute cost (see Embraer-Boeing JV...)

Which partner would be a best fit in this scenario:

A: SAAB - already partnering with Embraer on the Grippen NG, maybe Sweden would be another customer in this scenario;
B: Airbus - the KC-390 would fill the gap between their largest refuelling jet (A330-derived), A-400 turboprop (much larger than the KC-390) and the smaller C-295.
C: India - They have an interest in partnering with Embraer on the E2 line, and they're avid buyers of military aircraft. Could the KC-390 be the first step to a future larger JV ?
D: None of the above ?
E: Your choice for a JV is ?...

My $0.02


I believe that India will be a great partner for Brazil and Embraer, there is a lot of complementarity and common interests between these countries.

With a little imagination, we can even dream of a future KC-780 being produced in India from an Embraer project, basically a duplicate KC-390 (full FBY, 4 x 30,000 lb engines, duplicate landing gear, 50-60 tons of payload, strategic refueling).

docmtl
 
Nean1
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Re: Embraer KC-390 News and Discussion Thread

Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:31 pm

PICTURE: KC-390 refueling another KC-390 in flight

https://www.aereo.jor.br/2020/11/23/ima ... ro-kc-390/
 
texl1649
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Re: Embraer KC-390 News and Discussion Thread

Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:19 pm

Congrats to EMB on the Hungary sale. That happened very quickly since things sort of split from Boeing (I think Boeing is still involved on the military side).

Plausibly, on partnerships, I could see Airbus as a good fit in addition to India, as the A400M production is ending. They have lost piles of cash on that project and having something to pitch without decades of development to supplement/replace the C-130J's in Europe would be...very logical. Perhaps too much common sense though given how crazy military procurement decisions tend to get.
 
MEA-707
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Re: Embraer KC-390 News and Discussion Thread

Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:25 pm

texl1649 wrote:
Congrats to EMB on the Hungary sale. That happened very quickly since things sort of split from Boeing (I think Boeing is still involved on the military side).

Plausibly, on partnerships, I could see Airbus as a good fit in addition to India, as the A400M production is ending. They have lost piles of cash on that project and having something to pitch without decades of development to supplement/replace the C-130J's in Europe would be...very logical. Perhaps too much common sense though given how crazy military procurement decisions tend to get.

I haven't heared that the A400M production would be ending any time soon. They lowered the production rate to spread out production over a few years, they still have about 70 to build, and hoping the type will get more orders, as far as I know. But maybe you have sources?
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
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smithbs
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Re: Embraer KC-390 News and Discussion Thread

Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:14 pm

docmtl wrote:
Since:
1: The Embraer-Boeing JV to market the KC-390 seems to be dead on arrival (never say never...).
2: Two NATO countries (Portugal and Hungary) have chosen the KC-390 as their primary transport-refuelling aircraft.
3: Embraer is probably looking for other partners to boost their customer's base and dilute cost (see Embraer-Boeing JV...)

Which partner would be a best fit in this scenario:

A: SAAB - already partnering with Embraer on the Grippen NG, maybe Sweden would be another customer in this scenario;
B: Airbus - the KC-390 would fill the gap between their largest refuelling jet (A330-derived), A-400 turboprop (much larger than the KC-390) and the smaller C-295.
C: India - They have an interest in partnering with Embraer on the E2 line, and they're avid buyers of military aircraft. Could the KC-390 be the first step to a future larger JV ?
D: None of the above ?
E: Your choice for a JV is ?...

My $0.02

docmtl


For sales, I'm sure EMB will give a sales pitch any and all who will listen. For a partner, I think it's much more limited. India would not be a good partner because their history of aircraft exports is very weak. Who is going to lean on them for meeting delivery promises and aftermarket support?

Airbus would be the strongest partner in terms of bringing sales and support resources to bear. They might chafe because there could be a bit of competition between KC-390 and A400M sales, but also, a sale is a sale.

SAAB is kind of in the middle. Not as much sales/support as Airbus, but not as weak as India either. But since they have been chums with Brazil over the Gripen lately, maybe they would have an inside track. But I'm not sure how much more sales success they could bring to the table.

KC-390 is having a disappointing time with sales - I was hoping it would do better. I worked on some black boxes for that program many years ago, too. If I wanted to shoot the moon for sales potential, I'd knock on Airbus's door (assuming that Lockheed's door is firmly closed).
 
texl1649
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Re: Embraer KC-390 News and Discussion Thread

Wed Nov 25, 2020 6:43 pm

MEA-707 wrote:
texl1649 wrote:
Congrats to EMB on the Hungary sale. That happened very quickly since things sort of split from Boeing (I think Boeing is still involved on the military side).

Plausibly, on partnerships, I could see Airbus as a good fit in addition to India, as the A400M production is ending. They have lost piles of cash on that project and having something to pitch without decades of development to supplement/replace the C-130J's in Europe would be...very logical. Perhaps too much common sense though given how crazy military procurement decisions tend to get.

I haven't heared that the A400M production would be ending any time soon. They lowered the production rate to spread out production over a few years, they still have about 70 to build, and hoping the type will get more orders, as far as I know. But maybe you have sources?


When the current production countries (including Germany) are trying to offload units they committed to, it’s pretty obvious future sales are unlikely.

Suppliers are desperate to end the losses; https://www.reuters.com/article/us-safr ... SKCN1RT1SR

Airbus has lost tens of billions; most recently writing off 1.3 billion euros in 2019. https://www.defensenews.com/industry/20 ... roduction/

It has something like...4 (to Malaysia) of the planned/hoped 200 export orders; https://www.flightglobal.com/flight-int ... 94.article

What is the question really; will Airbus and the partner countries somehow sell another hundred or more frames? They’re making one every 2 months; this is a death march rate, making it too expensive to ever get more orders. See: 747-800 (on a line that really was fully amortized/had been profitable for decades). Every party involved seems ready to move on from the A400M debacle.

The KC-390 is comparatively affordable, and could be easily enhanced further (new engines) or a new production/assembly line added.
 
Noray
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Re: Embraer KC-390 News and Discussion Thread

Wed Nov 25, 2020 7:49 pm

texl1649 wrote:
MEA-707 wrote:
texl1649 wrote:
Congrats to EMB on the Hungary sale. That happened very quickly since things sort of split from Boeing (I think Boeing is still involved on the military side).

Plausibly, on partnerships, I could see Airbus as a good fit in addition to India, as the A400M production is ending. They have lost piles of cash on that project and having something to pitch without decades of development to supplement/replace the C-130J's in Europe would be...very logical. Perhaps too much common sense though given how crazy military procurement decisions tend to get.

I haven't heared that the A400M production would be ending any time soon. They lowered the production rate to spread out production over a few years, they still have about 70 to build, and hoping the type will get more orders, as far as I know. But maybe you have sources?


When the current production countries (including Germany) are trying to offload units they committed to, it’s pretty obvious future sales are unlikely.

Suppliers are desperate to end the losses; https://www.reuters.com/article/us-safr ... SKCN1RT1SR

Airbus has lost tens of billions; most recently writing off 1.3 billion euros in 2019. https://www.defensenews.com/industry/20 ... roduction/

It has something like...4 (to Malaysia) of the planned/hoped 200 export orders; https://www.flightglobal.com/flight-int ... 94.article

What is the question really; will Airbus and the partner countries somehow sell another hundred or more frames? They’re making one every 2 months; this is a death march rate, making it too expensive to ever get more orders. See: 747-800 (on a line that really was fully amortized/had been profitable for decades). Every party involved seems ready to move on from the A400M debacle.

The KC-390 is comparatively affordable, and could be easily enhanced further (new engines) or a new production/assembly line added.


So still no source, just your own speculation that comes close to slander. Let's see.

texl1649 wrote:
When the current production countries (including Germany) are trying to offload units they committed to, it’s pretty obvious future sales are unlikely.

Some nations' plans to reduce their numbers of A400Ms were caused by the financial crisis in 2008/2009 and have little to do with future prospects. Germany has stopped its own plans to sell some of their A400Ms and will deploy them to a second A400M base in southern Germany. Hungary is the first partner that has signed on for an international unit.

texl1649 wrote:
Suppliers are desperate to end the losses; https://www.reuters.com/article/us-safr ... SKCN1RT1SR

That's not "suppliers" but a single company in crisis-hit South Africa that suffers from unfavorable contractual terms they once accepted to be part of the show.

texl1649 wrote:
Airbus has lost tens of billions; most recently writing off 1.3 billion euros in 2019. https://www.defensenews.com/industry/20 ... roduction/

The losses were caused by past difficulties that have mostly been overcome. It doesn't make sense to spend billions to fix a project only to shut it down once it's usable. The job cuts are the consequence of the program's extension until 2030.

texl1649 wrote:
It has something like...4 (to Malaysia) of the planned/hoped 200 export orders; https://www.flightglobal.com/flight-int ... 94.article

That's why the production is beeing slowed down and prolonged until 2030.

texl1649 wrote:
Every party involved seems ready to move on from the A400M debacle.

The KC-390 is comparatively affordable, and could be easily enhanced further (new engines) or a new production/assembly line added.

If that was actually the case, Airbus wouldn't acquire an existing program but create a new one to keep the engineers of their defence section busy. Some people in the French military seem to favor a twin-engined A200M to replace the French C-130Hs and CN-235s.
 
Nean1
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Re: Embraer KC-390 News and Discussion Thread

Sat Dec 19, 2020 10:17 pm

https://www.aereo.jor.br/2020/12/19/emb ... ara-a-fab/

The fourth KC-390 was delivered today to Brazilian Air Force.

The aircraft shows a high availability rate and has been used extensively during the pandemic.
 
744SPX
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Re: Embraer KC-390 News and Discussion Thread

Sun Dec 20, 2020 1:22 am

I'm kind of surprised they did not decide to use the GTF on this aircraft. Then again, it seems all current military freighter types use engines that are 2 or more generations old. It didn't use to be that way. Do they really consider current generation engines to be that unreliable?

C-17 and A400M would be exceptions
 
texl1649
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Re: Embraer KC-390 News and Discussion Thread

Sun Dec 20, 2020 2:06 pm

The aircraft was launched in 2009, and the V2500 offered the then-known dust ingestion stability etc. vs. the notional GTF. I don’t think it’s won, or lost, a competition on the basis of the engine used, but the reliability is significant.

Keep in mind, that to compete with the C-130...it is light years more fuel efficient, and requires vastly less maintenance hours per flight hour. Charitably, of course, the Pratt GTF went through some ‘teething’ issues during what was a critical period of first flight/certification etc for the KC-390. Even today, I’m not sure in rough field conditions the Pratt motor would be a desirable trade off, and the start up time/turn time also doesn’t lend itself to a tactical military airlifter.
 
744SPX
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Re: Embraer KC-390 News and Discussion Thread

Mon Dec 21, 2020 1:09 am

The start up time for the GTF would be an issue- maybe a LEAP then? A slightly uprated TP400 might have been a good fit too.
 
Nean1
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Re: Embraer KC-390 News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:13 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BpIK_qAZws

C-390 MILLENNIUM CONCLUDES AIRDROP CERTIFICATION CAMPAIGN
Highlights:
- Sequential launch of 2 plataforms, totaling 24 tones
- Maximum single plataform (19 ton or 42.000 lbs)
 
Nean1
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Re: Embraer KC-390 News and Discussion Thread

Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:57 pm

https://www.aereo.jor.br/2021/04/01/emb ... illennium/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNGTSFaTGoA

São José dos Campos - SP, April 1, 2021 - Embraer has reached yet another important milestone in the development of the KC-390 Millennium multi-mission military freighter, with the successful completion of the in-flight refueling qualification between two KC- 390 Millennium, proving, for the Brazilian Air Force (FAB), the new operational capacity of the aircraft.

The ability to transfer fuel in flight between two aircraft of the same model, using sub-wing refueling “pods”, is unique in this category, which allows KC-390 Millennium operators to expand their logistical transport capacity and in transport operations. search and rescue, increasing the autonomy and scope of their missions.

The demonstrations were conducted at Embraer's Gavião Peixoto Unit, on flights with fuel transfer between two aircraft. The flights counted on the participation of pilots and engineers from the FAB, when the excellent flight qualities of the airplane and the low workload for the crew were demonstrated, as a result of the control laws of the “fly-by-wire” system, developed by Embraer especially for the KC-390.

Since entering into operation, the KC-390 has been proving its excellent performance and capacity as a new generation multi-mission aircraft. Recently, the fleet of four aircraft operated by the FAB has already exceeded 2,400 flight hours in operations, being used extensively in operations to combat Covid-19 in Brazil. In addition to the FAB, the aircraft was ordered by the Air Forces of Portugal and Hungary.
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Embraer KC-390 News and Discussion Thread

Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:01 pm

Nean1 wrote:
https://www.aereo.jor.br/2021/04/01/embraer-conclui-com-sucesso-qualificacao-de-reabastecimento-em-voo-entre-duas-aeronaves-kc-390-millennium/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNGTSFaTGoA

São José dos Campos - SP, April 1, 2021 - Embraer has reached yet another important milestone in the development of the KC-390 Millennium multi-mission military freighter, with the successful completion of the in-flight refueling qualification between two KC- 390 Millennium, proving, for the Brazilian Air Force (FAB), the new operational capacity of the aircraft.

The ability to transfer fuel in flight between two aircraft of the same model, using sub-wing refueling “pods”, is unique in this category, which allows KC-390 Millennium operators to expand their logistical transport capacity and in transport operations. search and rescue, increasing the autonomy and scope of their missions.

The demonstrations were conducted at Embraer's Gavião Peixoto Unit, on flights with fuel transfer between two aircraft. The flights counted on the participation of pilots and engineers from the FAB, when the excellent flight qualities of the airplane and the low workload for the crew were demonstrated, as a result of the control laws of the “fly-by-wire” system, developed by Embraer especially for the KC-390.

Since entering into operation, the KC-390 has been proving its excellent performance and capacity as a new generation multi-mission aircraft. Recently, the fleet of four aircraft operated by the FAB has already exceeded 2,400 flight hours in operations, being used extensively in operations to combat Covid-19 in Brazil. In addition to the FAB, the aircraft was ordered by the Air Forces of Portugal and Hungary.


Wow. I wonder if this is the largest airplane to ever buddy-refuel, or even to be refueled using probe-and-droge.
 
Noray
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Re: Embraer KC-390 News and Discussion Thread

Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:08 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
Wow. I wonder if this is the largest airplane to ever buddy-refuel, or even to be refueled using probe-and-droge.

No. The A400M is larger.
 
Nean1
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Re: Embraer KC-390 News and Discussion Thread

Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:28 pm

The great advantage of the KC-390 is that a nation that has 4 units can use them every day, as if they were commercial aircraft. It can transport more than 20 tons effortlessly, launch loads, launch parachutists through 2 doors simultaneously, as well as refuel from helicopters to supersonic aircraft. There is nothing that comes close in terms of operational performance.
 
Noray
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Re: Embraer KC-390 News and Discussion Thread

Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:45 pm

Nean1 wrote:
The great advantage of the KC-390 is that a nation that has 4 units can use them every day, as if they were commercial aircraft. It can transport more than 20 tons effortlessly, launch loads, launch parachutists through 2 doors simultaneously, as well as refuel from helicopters to supersonic aircraft. There is nothing that comes close in terms of operational performance.

Sounds like you're trying to sell some to the forum crowd. I'm not sure about the correctness of your statement, though (simultaneous launch of parachutes from the A400m has been certified, helicopter refuelling is on the way; also I see lots of activity of the 4 Malaysian A400Ms).
Last edited by Noray on Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Embraer KC-390 News and Discussion Thread

Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:45 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
Wow. I wonder if this is the largest airplane to ever buddy-refuel

That would probably be the KC-10. https://www.businessinsider.com/video-s ... ?r=DE&IR=T
 
Nean1
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Re: Embraer KC-390 News and Discussion Thread

Thu Apr 01, 2021 9:19 pm

Noray wrote:
Nean1 wrote:
The great advantage of the KC-390 is that a nation that has 4 units can use them every day, as if they were commercial aircraft. It can transport more than 20 tons effortlessly, launch loads, launch parachutists through 2 doors simultaneously, as well as refuel from helicopters to supersonic aircraft. There is nothing that comes close in terms of operational performance.

Sounds like you're trying to sell some to the forum crowd. I'm not sure about the correctness of your statement, though (simultaneous launch of parachutes from the A400m has been certified, helicopter refuelling is on the way; also I see lots of activity of the 4 Malaysian A400Ms).


Maybe you know things that I don't know. Still, I venture to say that an aircraft with 4 such complicated turboprop engines would ever be able to achieve the availability factor of other with 2 turbofan IAE V2500.
 
Nean1
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Re: Embraer KC-390 News and Discussion Thread

Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:48 pm

Noray wrote:
Nean1 wrote:
The great advantage of the KC-390 is that a nation that has 4 units can use them every day, as if they were commercial aircraft. It can transport more than 20 tons effortlessly, launch loads, launch parachutists through 2 doors simultaneously, as well as refuel from helicopters to supersonic aircraft. There is nothing that comes close in terms of operational performance.

Sounds like you're trying to sell some to the forum crowd. I'm not sure about the correctness of your statement, though (simultaneous launch of parachutes from the A400m has been certified, helicopter refuelling is on the way; also I see lots of activity of the 4 Malaysian A400Ms).


Hercules is an airplane that can be compared to Electra. The KC-390 should be compared to the A320ceo.

The KC-390 respects civil certification, something that Hercules will never meet. The long wings of the Hercules are more prone to fatigue.

Operating higher and faster than the Hercules, the KC-390 has more precise systems for launching cargo, exposing itself less to the enemy.

It seems clear to me that the replacement for Hercules will be the KC-390 and not the A400 (never mind the C2), which is much more complex and offers little more. Everything the A400 has achieved at enormous cost and time the KC-390 has been demonstrating in a much cheaper and less troubled campaign.


"For air forces wishing to enter the 21st century with greater operational efficiency and with modern and significantly more capable aircraft, the C-390 Millennium offers unparalleled mobility capabilities, high productivity and flexibility at low operating costs. It is an aircraft designed with a robust design and using state-of-the-art technologies, having been specially developed to operate in austere environments and to perform a wide range of missions with a single platform, with high levels of availability, reliability, safety and capacity. survival.

The C-390 Millennium and the variant KC-390 Millennium fly faster and carry more cargo than other military cargo ships of the same size and are the ideal platforms for the main scenarios of use in humanitarian, tactical and strategic operations. The C-390 and KC-390 Millennium require less inspection and maintenance, with levels of simplification normally associated only with commercial aircraft. This feature, combined with highly reliable systems and components, reduces aircraft time on the ground and total operating costs, contributing to excellent levels of availability and low life cycle cost."
 
Noray
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Re: Embraer KC-390 News and Discussion Thread

Sat Apr 03, 2021 2:30 am

I don't think that copying the manufacturer's glowing promotional texts adds much to this forum. You should also name your source.
 
GDB
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Re: Embraer KC-390 News and Discussion Thread

Sat Apr 03, 2021 2:57 pm

kitplane01 wrote:


Wow. I wonder if this is the largest airplane to ever buddy-refuel, or even to be refueled using probe-and-droge.


Note the first pic on this site, not KC-10 size though bigger than a KC-390, done for many years operationally too, including many times per mission on the 1982 Black Buck raids in the Falklands war.
(Some of the Vulcan bombers were converted to temporary tankers from 1982 to 84, presumably they did buddy-buddy, again bigger than a KC-130).

https://www.55assoc.com/tanker-stories/

Are we including the RAF's VC-10's, French AF's Transall NG's and all the C-130's, bigger overall than the KC-130? Soviet TU-16's had an eccentric buddy refuelling too, as I think did the 'Bison' four engined jet bomber.

The KC-10's Granddaddy;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... 4S-002.jpg

No luck on a search for the RAF's former fleet of Tristar tankers, for the early part of their service, after conversion, the ex BA ones had refuelling probes above the cockpit, whether they did any buddy-buddy tanking is unclear however.
 
Nean1
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Re: Embraer KC-390 News and Discussion Thread

Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:01 pm

Noray wrote:
I don't think that copying the manufacturer's glowing promotional texts adds much to this forum. You should also name your source.


source: https://www.aereo.jor.br/2021/04/01/emb ... illennium/ (in portuguese)

Happy Easter,

A characteristic of Embraer is its aversion to fanciful or exaggerated promises. This can be seen both in the project deadlines and in the performance promises. Those who follow the company observe this pattern. For example, the 190E2 has an official promise to reduce fuel consumption by 17.3%, but customers of the 190E1 and 190E2 models report consumption between 20-25% less.

We are seeing the 4 aircraft making continuous flights, mainly to airports located in the Amazon region, where a large amount of medical equipment is transported (up to 20 ton / flight). It seems clear that the plane is in an advanced stage of maturity, although some tests (with semi-prepared runways) have not yet been completed.

By the way, the likelihood of a plane of this class landing on an improvised runway is much less than it was 40 years ago, not only due to the greater offer of airports but also due to the advanced features of launching heavy loads.
 
Nean1
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Re: Embraer KC-390 News and Discussion Thread

Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:54 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dLqNPLQ3EQ

Interview with pilot of the KC-390 of the Brazilian Air Force (in portuguese):

Points to highlight:
- Ease of configuration change;
- 85% aircraft availability factor;
- Initially the MTOW was limited to 74.4 ton;
- Antarctica landing and take-off tests planned to Dec / 2021;
- Compared to the C-130 H, a higher load capacity is observed (26 vs 17 ton and 7 vs 5 pallets).
- Greater operating ceiling (36.000 ft vs less than 30.000 ft);
- Enhanced ability to transport liquid gases (as O2) due two relief valves.
 
acecrackshot
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Re: Embraer KC-390 News and Discussion Thread

Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:38 pm

SAS A340 wrote:
I would say that Sweden could be a very possible customer for the KC-390, I say it´s 50/50 between the C-130j and KC-390 and the A400 as a long shot. All of them being very nice aircraft. :thumbsup:


That's an interesting selection, honestly. Were I Swedes, and just guessing back-of-napkin at the requirements, I'd down select the A400 first.

The -130J and KC-390 have some interesting capability that would reflect both existing operations and MCO requirements.
 
Nean1
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Re: Embraer KC-390 News and Discussion Thread

Fri May 07, 2021 3:48 pm

If anyone is curious as to how far the KC-390 can go in capabilities I suggest taking a look at the evolution of the Airbus A321 aircraft. Starting with an 83t MTOW its capacity was successively revised to 93t (321-2), 97t (321Neo) and now reaches 101t (A321XLR).

We could foresee a future KC-390 version with the modern and economical PW1100 and a MTOW of 100 tons or 13 tons more than the current version, with an increase in the empty weight of 3 tons. The payload capacity could easily exceed 30 tons. The use of aerial refueling and a (future) braking parachute system could also give the aircraft an exceptional condition for operating on short runways.
 
RJMAZ
Posts: 2373
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:54 am

Re: Embraer KC-390 News and Discussion Thread

Mon May 10, 2021 7:38 am

Nean1 wrote:
If anyone is curious as to how far the KC-390 can go in capabilities I suggest taking a look at the evolution of the Airbus A321 aircraft.

Unfortunately the KC-390 is probably a decade too late. It could have killed the A400M business case. High end air forces are now looking at expensive vertical lift aircraft in this payload category. Merging the tactical airlift and helicopter airlift into a single STOVL platform so no forward operating runways are needed.

The disastrous V-22 program no doubt made people think fixed wing tactical airlift had a strong future. The smooth and rapid progress of the V-280 showed that all future tactical airlift will clearly be vertical. Low end air forces will use second hand Hercules.
 
Nean1
Posts: 516
Joined: Mon May 30, 2016 11:08 pm

Re: Embraer KC-390 News and Discussion Thread

Mon May 10, 2021 1:16 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
Nean1 wrote:
If anyone is curious as to how far the KC-390 can go in capabilities I suggest taking a look at the evolution of the Airbus A321 aircraft.

Unfortunately the KC-390 is probably a decade too late. It could have killed the A400M business case. High end air forces are now looking at expensive vertical lift aircraft in this payload category. Merging the tactical airlift and helicopter airlift into a single STOVL platform so no forward operating runways are needed.

The disastrous V-22 program no doubt made people think fixed wing tactical airlift had a strong future. The smooth and rapid progress of the V-280 showed that all future tactical airlift will clearly be vertical. Low end air forces will use second hand Hercules.


More and more I find people who think that the future of aviation lies in electric, hydrogen and VTOL models. We just need to repeal the laws of physics and chemistry as we know it.
 
Nean1
Posts: 516
Joined: Mon May 30, 2016 11:08 pm

Re: Embraer KC-390 News and Discussion Thread

Tue May 11, 2021 12:38 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
acecrackshot wrote:
The A400 business case had more to do French military and industrial base preservation than a global business case.

You might want to check History. Europe had the Future Large Aircraft program where they were looking for an aircraft between the C-130 and C-17. They wanted an existing design to be assembled in Europe. The AN-70 was the front runner and 50% of the aircraft would have been built by Airbus to satisfy the French requirement. Unfortunately a few countries were anti-Russian.

The KC-390 would have surely been selected with all aircraft made by Airbus. It has more than 50% higher payload weight, 50% higher payload volume and 50% higher range compared to the C-160 Transall.

The size of the A400M was selected to make it compete with the AN-70. The whole German argument where the AN-70 is better because it could carry more. The requirement never needed it to be that big.

Nean1 wrote:
More and more I find people who think that the future of aviation lies in electric, hydrogen and VTOL models. We just need to repeal the laws of physics and chemistry as we know it.

Electric and hydrogen technology in a laboratory is a bit difference to VTOL that is combat proven over decades. There are now over 400 tilt rotors in service.


The success of Hercules in the military segment, a plane quite comparable to Electra, shows the high degree of pragmatism and conservatism in this segment. I don't bet on VTOL aircraft, which must have a niche in onboard operations. It seems much more realistic for high risk war scenarios the use of fixed wing transport aircraft remotely controlled.
 
Nean1
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Joined: Mon May 30, 2016 11:08 pm

Re: Embraer KC-390 News and Discussion Thread

Fri May 21, 2021 4:10 pm

 
Noray
Posts: 193
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:28 am

Re: Embraer KC-390 News and Discussion Thread

Fri May 28, 2021 9:15 pm

Due to budgetary constraints after the Corona crisis, the Brazilian Air Force will try to renegotiate their KC-390 contract. The aim is to limit deliveries to two aircraft per year and to reduce the overall number of KC-390s to be purchased, which is currently 28. The Air Force says that, owing to very good availability and performance of the KC-390, they need less aircraft than previously planned, but they also won't have the money to buy and maintain 28 machines.
https://www.fab.mil.br/noticias/mostra/ ... e%20KC-390 (Portuguese)
 
art
Posts: 4152
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:46 am

Re: Embraer KC-390 News and Discussion Thread

Fri May 28, 2021 9:57 pm

Bit of a paradoxical kick in the teeth - since coming into operation KC390 has shown exceptional levels of availability and despatch reliability, resulting in much higher capacity in volume and flexibility in transporting cargo and personnel - so we don't need as many as we thought we would!

I know the expression 'damned by faint praise'. I think FAB just invented another one: 'damned by great praise'.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 7841
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Re: Embraer KC-390 News and Discussion Thread

Sun May 30, 2021 9:38 pm

Nean1 wrote:
Noray wrote:
Nean1 wrote:
The great advantage of the KC-390 is that a nation that has 4 units can use them every day, as if they were commercial aircraft. It can transport more than 20 tons effortlessly, launch loads, launch parachutists through 2 doors simultaneously, as well as refuel from helicopters to supersonic aircraft. There is nothing that comes close in terms of operational performance.

Sounds like you're trying to sell some to the forum crowd. I'm not sure about the correctness of your statement, though (simultaneous launch of parachutes from the A400m has been certified, helicopter refuelling is on the way; also I see lots of activity of the 4 Malaysian A400Ms).


Hercules is an airplane that can be compared to Electra. The KC-390 should be compared to the A320ceo.

The KC-390 respects civil certification, something that Hercules will never meet. The long wings of the Hercules are more prone to fatigue.

Operating higher and faster than the Hercules, the KC-390 has more precise systems for launching cargo, exposing itself less to the enemy.

It seems clear to me that the replacement for Hercules will be the KC-390 and not the A400 (never mind the C2), which is much more complex and offers little more. Everything the A400 has achieved at enormous cost and time the KC-390 has been demonstrating in a much cheaper and less troubled campaign.
I

"For air forces wishing to enter the 21st century with greater operational efficiency and with modern and significantly more capable aircraft, the C-390 Millennium offers unparalleled mobility capabilities, high productivity and flexibility at low operating costs. It is an aircraft designed with a robust design and using state-of-the-art technologies, having been specially developed to operate in austere environments and to perform a wide range of missions with a single platform, with high levels of availability, reliability, safety and capacity. survival.

The C-390 Millennium and the variant KC-390 Millennium fly faster and carry more cargo than other military cargo ships of the same size and are the ideal platforms for the main scenarios of use in humanitarian, tactical and strategic operations. The C-390 and KC-390 Millennium require less inspection and maintenance, with levels of simplification normally associated only with commercial aircraft. This feature, combined with highly reliable systems and components, reduces aircraft time on the ground and total operating costs, contributing to excellent levels of availability and low life cycle cost."


The Herk is civil certified and wing life life not a limiting factor.
 
Nean1
Posts: 516
Joined: Mon May 30, 2016 11:08 pm

Re: Embraer KC-390 News and Discussion Thread

Sun May 30, 2021 11:42 pm

Noray wrote:
Due to budgetary constraints after the Corona crisis, the Brazilian Air Force will try to renegotiate their KC-390 contract. The aim is to limit deliveries to two aircraft per year and to reduce the overall number of KC-390s to be purchased, which is currently 28. The Air Force says that, owing to very good availability and performance of the KC-390, they need less aircraft than previously planned, but they also won't have the money to buy and maintain 28 machines.
https://www.fab.mil.br/noticias/mostra/ ... e%20KC-390 (Portuguese)


Anyone who knows Brazilian politics knows that the budgetary discussion is very fierce. There is a strong central government emphasis on limiting the size of the state and public spending, in order to have lower taxes and more public investments. The Defense resent the lack of civilian support for their modernization. In summary, I think we will see a reduction in the cadence of the KC-390 in the short term without implying long-term decisions. Remember in early May, the FAB obtained authorization for the emergency purchase of 2 strategic refueling units, supposedly A330 MRTT.
 
Noray
Posts: 193
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:28 am

Re: Embraer KC-390 News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jun 01, 2021 2:42 pm

Obviously the Brazilian Air Force found that the (refueling) capacitiy of the KC-390 isn't sufficient for some of their tasks and so they plan the additional acquisition of a larger platform. That should eat up some of the financial resources that were designated for the KC-390. Fuel capacity according to Wikipedia: 23,000 kg (50,700 lb), 35,000 kg (77,160 lb) with 3 aux. fuel tanks.

But what is the use case for strategic (refueling) aircraft in Brazil? According to an article from AINonline (Brazil To Cut KC-390 Airlifter Order):

Project KC-X3 has been justified following the nation’s response to the Covid pandemic, which was hampered by the lack of large aircraft to transport medical supplies to the Amazon region. The FAB’s most recent large jet transport, a leased Boeing 767, was withdrawn in 2018, leaving the Covid supply burden to fall on the first few KC-390s to be delivered and the C-130 Hercules.

As well as its transport requirements, the FAB also needs a large aircraft for refueling its forthcoming Gripen fighter fleet, especially to support overseas deployments.
...
... although given the extra cost of full military-spec aircraft versus second-hand commercial aircraft, the tanker element of the requirement may be eliminated.
 
Nean1
Posts: 516
Joined: Mon May 30, 2016 11:08 pm

Re: Embraer KC-390 News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jun 01, 2021 6:45 pm

Noray wrote:
Obviously the Brazilian Air Force found that the (refueling) capacitiy of the KC-390 isn't sufficient for some of their tasks and so they plan the additional acquisition of a larger platform. That should eat up some of the financial resources that were designated for the KC-390. Fuel capacity according to Wikipedia: 23,000 kg (50,700 lb), 35,000 kg (77,160 lb) with 3 aux. fuel tanks.

But what is the use case for strategic (refueling) aircraft in Brazil? According to an article from AINonline (Brazil To Cut KC-390 Airlifter Order):

Project KC-X3 has been justified following the nation’s response to the Covid pandemic, which was hampered by the lack of large aircraft to transport medical supplies to the Amazon region. The FAB’s most recent large jet transport, a leased Boeing 767, was withdrawn in 2018, leaving the Covid supply burden to fall on the first few KC-390s to be delivered and the C-130 Hercules.

As well as its transport requirements, the FAB also needs a large aircraft for refueling its forthcoming Gripen fighter fleet, especially to support overseas deployments.
...
... although given the extra cost of full military-spec aircraft versus second-hand commercial aircraft, the tanker element of the requirement may be eliminated.


Having a strategic transportation and supply device is an old demand of the Brazilian Air Force (FAB). My reading of this is (1) The FAB wishes to inform the society that needed to make choices given the budget cuts and (2) I would not like to miss the opportunity to purchase modern equipment from friendly countries offered under very favorable economic conditions. These strategic aircraft have nothing to do with the strong demand for transportation destined for the Amazon region, for which the KC-390 is exceptionally tailored.

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