docmtl wrote:

And now Europe is going on a tender for a medium-sized airlifter, which seems to emulate the C-130/KC-390 specs. Leading nations are France, Germany and... Sweden (which partners with Embraer on the Grippen NG fighter jet for the Brazilian Air Force, but as not chosen the KC-390 to replace its C-130H and now could even develop a competing airplane)

I wonder whether Embraer can pitch their plane in this with Netherlands/Portugal/Czech/other European countries contents and local production/assembly and have a chance to win it ?....

Transcript and link below:

"The European Commission has launched a call for tenders to study the feasibility of “the possible development of a future tactical transport aircraft”.

"European transport aircraft were recently involved in several critical operations. These included the COVID-19 relief effort and the evacuation out of Afghanistan. “Beyond their pure military role, tactical transport aircraft are also key assets for a better civil defence/protection and EU-internal needs, with critical contribution to disaster relief, search-and-rescue and sanitary crises response,” the European Defence Fund document explains.

The Future Mid-size Tactical Cargo (FMTC) program aims to replace the aging tactical aircraft currently in operation among European air forces, including the C-130 Hercules, the CASA C295, or the recently retired Transall C-160. It involves France, which will operate as the coordinator country, Germany and Sweden.

The proposed aircraft will fulfil the need for a smaller alternative to the Airbus A400M Atlas in order to operate on narrow and short unprepared strips.

“Besides the A400M, which is on the high-performance side of the capacity, the initial conception of the majority of currently operating tactical aircraft [...] is now 40 years old, and there is a need for a new medium tactical European aircraft, lighter than the A400M that could provide a complementary capacity for tactical transport,” the document reads.

The feasibility study will have to identify the needs for transport aircraft in Europe by 2050, and potential development opportunities among member states of the European Defence Fund and their partners. The tender will end on November 24, 2022. "

https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/3149 ... fter-study

docmtl

docmtl wrote:

I wonder whether Embraer can pitch their plane in this with Netherlands/Portugal/Czech/other European countries contents and local production/assembly and have a chance to win it ?....

LightningZ71 wrote:

There are, to my knowledge, four paths:

1) Buy the existing C-130 model with its latest upgrades.
2) Buy the KC-390
3) Buy the C-2 at a likely very high cost
4) Develop their own platform. To reduce costs, they could do something akin to the C-27J Spartan but patterned on the A400. So, a scaled down airlifter based on two of the A400 powerplants for commonality with a common cockpit layout to the A400 to make cross-training easier. That gets you down into the lower end of C-130/ KC-390 capabilities. If they share as much as possible with the A-400, then maybe they can keep the cost from spiraling out of control, but, if they make less than 80 units, they will never break even with just buying products that already exist on the market.

However, keep in mind, the recent conflict in europe, covid supply line disruptions, and ever souring relations with China are pushing more and more countries and blocks towards in-sourcing their products. That could be a major driver in this decision making process.

par13del wrote:

LightningZ71 wrote:

There are, to my knowledge, four paths:

1) Buy the existing C-130 model with its latest upgrades.
2) Buy the KC-390
3) Buy the C-2 at a likely very high cost
4) Develop their own platform. To reduce costs, they could do something akin to the C-27J Spartan but patterned on the A400. So, a scaled down airlifter based on two of the A400 powerplants for commonality with a common cockpit layout to the A400 to make cross-training easier. That gets you down into the lower end of C-130/ KC-390 capabilities. If they share as much as possible with the A-400, then maybe they can keep the cost from spiraling out of control, but, if they make less than 80 units, they will never break even with just buying products that already exist on the market.

However, keep in mind, the recent conflict in europe, covid supply line disruptions, and ever souring relations with China are pushing more and more countries and blocks towards in-sourcing their products. That could be a major driver in this decision making process.

5. Airbus becomes a partner producing the KC-390 under license or with production offsets for European customers.
When Airbus wants to sell products to non-European nations they do production offsets if the local governments deem it so, any reason why the reverse cannot work in Europe?
Based on the number of hercs in Europe and nearby "follow me" nations, the number of units produced by Airbus would be the majority of the production and they would not have to spend much of anything on design and certification, just get their production facilities in place.

ThePointblank wrote:

par13del wrote:

LightningZ71 wrote:

There are, to my knowledge, four paths:

1) Buy the existing C-130 model with its latest upgrades.
2) Buy the KC-390
3) Buy the C-2 at a likely very high cost
4) Develop their own platform. To reduce costs, they could do something akin to the C-27J Spartan but patterned on the A400. So, a scaled down airlifter based on two of the A400 powerplants for commonality with a common cockpit layout to the A400 to make cross-training easier. That gets you down into the lower end of C-130/ KC-390 capabilities. If they share as much as possible with the A-400, then maybe they can keep the cost from spiraling out of control, but, if they make less than 80 units, they will never break even with just buying products that already exist on the market.

However, keep in mind, the recent conflict in europe, covid supply line disruptions, and ever souring relations with China are pushing more and more countries and blocks towards in-sourcing their products. That could be a major driver in this decision making process.

5. Airbus becomes a partner producing the KC-390 under license or with production offsets for European customers.
When Airbus wants to sell products to non-European nations they do production offsets if the local governments deem it so, any reason why the reverse cannot work in Europe?
Based on the number of hercs in Europe and nearby "follow me" nations, the number of units produced by Airbus would be the majority of the production and they would not have to spend much of anything on design and certification, just get their production facilities in place.

Airbus would rather push the A400M and the C-295 instead, as both have established production lines.

par13del wrote:

Its only tax payers money, so greater cost is no issue....

mxaxai wrote:

par13del wrote:

Its only tax payers money, so greater cost is no issue....

Yes but all countries that could profit from Airbus directly are already A400M customers. Italy isn't going to spend a fortune on an Airbus product just to secure jobs in Sevilla, St. Nazaire, Filton and Bremen. If anything, they'd ask Leonardo to license-build a KC-390, as they've done with the F-35. Likewise, Sweden would turn to Saab.

par13del wrote:

So you making a case for Airbus to do production offsets and go with the KC-390 versus a clean sheet?
That is my point, if other nations can do production offsets when purchasing Airbus products why not the reverse?

docmtl wrote:

BAE Systems, Embraer teamed up to pursue Saudi Arabia tactical airlift contract at Farnborough.

Interesting article on this JV in order to get the C-390 contract in Saudi Arabia.

https://www.defensenews.com/industry/20 ... -contract/

Excerpt here:

"LONDON — BAE Systems, the largest defense contractor in Europe, is considering a move into the military air transport business via a strategic partnership with Brazilian aircraft maker Embraer.

The companies opened the second day of the Farnborough air show in England July 19 by announcing they had signed a memorandum of understanding to pursue a potential deal with Saudi Arabia for the Embraer’s C-390 tactical airlift twin jet.

docmtl wrote:

BAE Systems, Embraer teamed up to pursue Saudi Arabia tactical airlift contract at Farnborough.

Interesting article on this JV in order to get the C-390 contract in Saudi Arabia.

https://www.defensenews.com/industry/20 ... -contract/

Excerpt here:

"LONDON — BAE Systems, the largest defense contractor in Europe, is considering a move into the military air transport business via a strategic partnership with Brazilian aircraft maker Embraer.

The companies opened the second day of the Farnborough air show in England July 19 by announcing they had signed a memorandum of understanding to pursue a potential deal with Saudi Arabia for the Embraer’s C-390 tactical airlift twin jet.

The aim is to establish a partnership to collaborate in the Middle East and other markets, they said in a statement.
Details of the potential scope of the strategic partnership were not available. Ian Muldowney, chief operating officer for BAE Systems Air sector said the collaboration “recognizes the capability of the C-390 Millennium aircraft combined with BAE Systems’ extensive knowledge and understanding of international markets including experience in standing up military capability and delivering industrialization through the support, maintenance, and training solutions for complex aircraft.”
BAE has had a major industrial and support presence in Saudi Arabia for decades on the back of massive deals in the air sector involving Typhoon, Tornado combat jets and Hawk trainers."

Embraer and Lockheed Martin have expressed interest in participating in the Indian Air Force's (IAF's) new Medium Transport Aircraft (MTA) acquisition programme.

The IAF is seeking an option of acquiring a batch of 40, 60, or 80 transport aircraft. In its request for information (RFI) released on 3 February, the IAF said that the aircraft are required to have a cargo-carrying capacity of between 18 and 30 tons. The document adds that the winning bidder is to commence “deliveries of [the] platform within 36 months of signing of contract”.

Speaking to Janes, João Bosco da Costa Junior, president and CEO of Embraer Defense & Security, confirmed the company's interest in the MTA programme. “We are eager to engage with the relevant stakeholders to explore how Embraer can contribute to this project,” he said.

frmrCapCadet wrote:

What is Russia's capability of avionics without advanced Western chips?

docmtl wrote:

And now Austria ? What's going on besides the Ukraine-Russia war, Lockheed C-130J doesn't do the job any longer ?

docmtl

docmtl wrote:

And now Austria ? What's going on besides the Ukraine-Russia war, Lockheed C-130J doesn't do the job any longer ?

docmtl wrote:

If both Austria and Sweden procure KC-390s, that'd be several NATO countries flying that equipment (Portugal, Hungary, The Netherlands, then Sweden and Austria), it starts to be significant...

bunumuring wrote:

Hey art,
It just seems logical to me that India and Brazil should do this : jointly produce and further develop the KC-390 family.
It will be interesting to see if anything comes of this.
Take care
Bunumuring

Kiwirob wrote:

bunumuring wrote:

Hey art,
It just seems logical to me that India and Brazil should do this : jointly produce and further develop the KC-390 family.
It will be interesting to see if anything comes of this.
Take care
Bunumuring

By the time India makes a decision on this the C-390 will be out of production.

art wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

By the time India makes a decision on this the C-390 will be out of production.

@bunumuring
The words 'India' and 'logical' should never be used in the same sentence when referring to any kind of military procurement.

The companies now expect to expand their cooperation with an April signing at LAAD of a memorandum of understanding (MOU) to collaborate on some new business opportunities. Those enhanced engagements include the integration of Saab equipment on-board the KC-390.

Catfry wrote:

I believe the US would want a platform with tactical landing capability if replacing the C-130. the quite conventional landing gear as well as the relatively low turbofan engines are not ideal for landing and takeoff into semi-prepared runways.

strfyr51 wrote:

Catfry wrote:

I believe the US would want a platform with tactical landing capability if replacing the C-130. the quite conventional landing gear as well as the relatively low turbofan engines are not ideal for landing and takeoff into semi-prepared runways.

there's not an airplane built that can and Has done what the C130 does and Has done. the KC390 cannot do nor attempt to do all the things the Herc has done. that's why the Herc has served for for Military freight delivery all over the world. though I do think the KC390 would be an excellent freighter for overnight package delivery.in the USA as an alternative to passenger converted freighters.0

Nations have been attracted to the C-390 because it is the only airlifter developed in the 21st century, he [Embraer Defense & Security’s president and CEO] notes, adding the Brazilian Air Force is seeing availability and dispatch reliability figures more akin to that in the commercial world.

Brazil has offered Embraer KC-390 Millennium multirole transport aircraft to Sweden in exchange for more Saab Gripen fighter jets.
Brazilian Defence Minister José Mucio said this proposal would be presented to the Swedish government when he visits the Nordic country this October.