docmtl wrote:

Since:
1: The Embraer-Boeing JV to market the KC-390 seems to be dead on arrival (never say never...).
2: Two NATO countries (Portugal and Hungary) have chosen the KC-390 as their primary transport-refuelling aircraft.
3: Embraer is probably looking for other partners to boost their customer's base and dilute cost (see Embraer-Boeing JV...)

Which partner would be a best fit in this scenario:

A: SAAB - already partnering with Embraer on the Grippen NG, maybe Sweden would be another customer in this scenario;
B: Airbus - the KC-390 would fill the gap between their largest refuelling jet (A330-derived), A-400 turboprop (much larger than the KC-390) and the smaller C-295.
C: India - They have an interest in partnering with Embraer on the E2 line, and they're avid buyers of military aircraft. Could the KC-390 be the first step to a future larger JV ?
D: None of the above ?
E: Your choice for a JV is ?...

My $0.02


I believe that India will be a great partner for Brazil and Embraer, there is a lot of complementarity and common interests between these countries.

With a little imagination, we can even dream of a future KC-780 being produced in India from an Embraer project, basically a duplicate KC-390 (full FBY, 4 x 30,000 lb engines, duplicate landing gear, 50-60 tons of payload, strategic refueling).

docmtl

texl1649 wrote:

Congrats to EMB on the Hungary sale. That happened very quickly since things sort of split from Boeing (I think Boeing is still involved on the military side).

Plausibly, on partnerships, I could see Airbus as a good fit in addition to India, as the A400M production is ending. They have lost piles of cash on that project and having something to pitch without decades of development to supplement/replace the C-130J's in Europe would be...very logical. Perhaps too much common sense though given how crazy military procurement decisions tend to get.

docmtl wrote:

Since:
1: The Embraer-Boeing JV to market the KC-390 seems to be dead on arrival (never say never...).
2: Two NATO countries (Portugal and Hungary) have chosen the KC-390 as their primary transport-refuelling aircraft.
3: Embraer is probably looking for other partners to boost their customer's base and dilute cost (see Embraer-Boeing JV...)

Which partner would be a best fit in this scenario:

A: SAAB - already partnering with Embraer on the Grippen NG, maybe Sweden would be another customer in this scenario;
B: Airbus - the KC-390 would fill the gap between their largest refuelling jet (A330-derived), A-400 turboprop (much larger than the KC-390) and the smaller C-295.
C: India - They have an interest in partnering with Embraer on the E2 line, and they're avid buyers of military aircraft. Could the KC-390 be the first step to a future larger JV ?
D: None of the above ?
E: Your choice for a JV is ?...

My $0.02

docmtl

MEA-707 wrote:

texl1649 wrote:

Congrats to EMB on the Hungary sale. That happened very quickly since things sort of split from Boeing (I think Boeing is still involved on the military side).

Plausibly, on partnerships, I could see Airbus as a good fit in addition to India, as the A400M production is ending. They have lost piles of cash on that project and having something to pitch without decades of development to supplement/replace the C-130J's in Europe would be...very logical. Perhaps too much common sense though given how crazy military procurement decisions tend to get.

I haven't heared that the A400M production would be ending any time soon. They lowered the production rate to spread out production over a few years, they still have about 70 to build, and hoping the type will get more orders, as far as I know. But maybe you have sources?

texl1649 wrote:

MEA-707 wrote:

texl1649 wrote:

Congrats to EMB on the Hungary sale. That happened very quickly since things sort of split from Boeing (I think Boeing is still involved on the military side).

Plausibly, on partnerships, I could see Airbus as a good fit in addition to India, as the A400M production is ending. They have lost piles of cash on that project and having something to pitch without decades of development to supplement/replace the C-130J's in Europe would be...very logical. Perhaps too much common sense though given how crazy military procurement decisions tend to get.

I haven't heared that the A400M production would be ending any time soon. They lowered the production rate to spread out production over a few years, they still have about 70 to build, and hoping the type will get more orders, as far as I know. But maybe you have sources?

When the current production countries (including Germany) are trying to offload units they committed to, it’s pretty obvious future sales are unlikely.

Suppliers are desperate to end the losses; https://www.reuters.com/article/us-safr ... SKCN1RT1SR

Airbus has lost tens of billions; most recently writing off 1.3 billion euros in 2019. https://www.defensenews.com/industry/20 ... roduction/

It has something like...4 (to Malaysia) of the planned/hoped 200 export orders; https://www.flightglobal.com/flight-int ... 94.article

What is the question really; will Airbus and the partner countries somehow sell another hundred or more frames? They’re making one every 2 months; this is a death march rate, making it too expensive to ever get more orders. See: 747-800 (on a line that really was fully amortized/had been profitable for decades). Every party involved seems ready to move on from the A400M debacle.

The KC-390 is comparatively affordable, and could be easily enhanced further (new engines) or a new production/assembly line added.

texl1649 wrote:

When the current production countries (including Germany) are trying to offload units they committed to, it’s pretty obvious future sales are unlikely.

texl1649 wrote:

Suppliers are desperate to end the losses; https://www.reuters.com/article/us-safr ... SKCN1RT1SR

texl1649 wrote:

Airbus has lost tens of billions; most recently writing off 1.3 billion euros in 2019. https://www.defensenews.com/industry/20 ... roduction/

texl1649 wrote:

It has something like...4 (to Malaysia) of the planned/hoped 200 export orders; https://www.flightglobal.com/flight-int ... 94.article

texl1649 wrote:

Every party involved seems ready to move on from the A400M debacle.

The KC-390 is comparatively affordable, and could be easily enhanced further (new engines) or a new production/assembly line added.

Nean1 wrote:

https://www.aereo.jor.br/2021/04/01/embraer-conclui-com-sucesso-qualificacao-de-reabastecimento-em-voo-entre-duas-aeronaves-kc-390-millennium/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNGTSFaTGoA

São José dos Campos - SP, April 1, 2021 - Embraer has reached yet another important milestone in the development of the KC-390 Millennium multi-mission military freighter, with the successful completion of the in-flight refueling qualification between two KC- 390 Millennium, proving, for the Brazilian Air Force (FAB), the new operational capacity of the aircraft.

The ability to transfer fuel in flight between two aircraft of the same model, using sub-wing refueling “pods”, is unique in this category, which allows KC-390 Millennium operators to expand their logistical transport capacity and in transport operations. search and rescue, increasing the autonomy and scope of their missions.

The demonstrations were conducted at Embraer's Gavião Peixoto Unit, on flights with fuel transfer between two aircraft. The flights counted on the participation of pilots and engineers from the FAB, when the excellent flight qualities of the airplane and the low workload for the crew were demonstrated, as a result of the control laws of the “fly-by-wire” system, developed by Embraer especially for the KC-390.

Since entering into operation, the KC-390 has been proving its excellent performance and capacity as a new generation multi-mission aircraft. Recently, the fleet of four aircraft operated by the FAB has already exceeded 2,400 flight hours in operations, being used extensively in operations to combat Covid-19 in Brazil. In addition to the FAB, the aircraft was ordered by the Air Forces of Portugal and Hungary.

kitplane01 wrote:

Wow. I wonder if this is the largest airplane to ever buddy-refuel, or even to be refueled using probe-and-droge.

Nean1 wrote:

The great advantage of the KC-390 is that a nation that has 4 units can use them every day, as if they were commercial aircraft. It can transport more than 20 tons effortlessly, launch loads, launch parachutists through 2 doors simultaneously, as well as refuel from helicopters to supersonic aircraft. There is nothing that comes close in terms of operational performance.

kitplane01 wrote:

Wow. I wonder if this is the largest airplane to ever buddy-refuel

Noray wrote:

Nean1 wrote:

The great advantage of the KC-390 is that a nation that has 4 units can use them every day, as if they were commercial aircraft. It can transport more than 20 tons effortlessly, launch loads, launch parachutists through 2 doors simultaneously, as well as refuel from helicopters to supersonic aircraft. There is nothing that comes close in terms of operational performance.

Sounds like you're trying to sell some to the forum crowd. I'm not sure about the correctness of your statement, though (simultaneous launch of parachutes from the A400m has been certified, helicopter refuelling is on the way; also I see lots of activity of the 4 Malaysian A400Ms).

Noray wrote:

Nean1 wrote:

The great advantage of the KC-390 is that a nation that has 4 units can use them every day, as if they were commercial aircraft. It can transport more than 20 tons effortlessly, launch loads, launch parachutists through 2 doors simultaneously, as well as refuel from helicopters to supersonic aircraft. There is nothing that comes close in terms of operational performance.

Sounds like you're trying to sell some to the forum crowd. I'm not sure about the correctness of your statement, though (simultaneous launch of parachutes from the A400m has been certified, helicopter refuelling is on the way; also I see lots of activity of the 4 Malaysian A400Ms).

kitplane01 wrote:

Wow. I wonder if this is the largest airplane to ever buddy-refuel, or even to be refueled using probe-and-droge.

Noray wrote:

I don't think that copying the manufacturer's glowing promotional texts adds much to this forum. You should also name your source.

SAS A340 wrote:

I would say that Sweden could be a very possible customer for the KC-390, I say it´s 50/50 between the C-130j and KC-390 and the A400 as a long shot. All of them being very nice aircraft.

Nean1 wrote:

If anyone is curious as to how far the KC-390 can go in capabilities I suggest taking a look at the evolution of the Airbus A321 aircraft.

RJMAZ wrote:

Nean1 wrote:

If anyone is curious as to how far the KC-390 can go in capabilities I suggest taking a look at the evolution of the Airbus A321 aircraft.

Unfortunately the KC-390 is probably a decade too late. It could have killed the A400M business case. High end air forces are now looking at expensive vertical lift aircraft in this payload category. Merging the tactical airlift and helicopter airlift into a single STOVL platform so no forward operating runways are needed.

The disastrous V-22 program no doubt made people think fixed wing tactical airlift had a strong future. The smooth and rapid progress of the V-280 showed that all future tactical airlift will clearly be vertical. Low end air forces will use second hand Hercules.

RJMAZ wrote:

acecrackshot wrote:

The A400 business case had more to do French military and industrial base preservation than a global business case.

You might want to check History. Europe had the Future Large Aircraft program where they were looking for an aircraft between the C-130 and C-17. They wanted an existing design to be assembled in Europe. The AN-70 was the front runner and 50% of the aircraft would have been built by Airbus to satisfy the French requirement. Unfortunately a few countries were anti-Russian.

The KC-390 would have surely been selected with all aircraft made by Airbus. It has more than 50% higher payload weight, 50% higher payload volume and 50% higher range compared to the C-160 Transall.

The size of the A400M was selected to make it compete with the AN-70. The whole German argument where the AN-70 is better because it could carry more. The requirement never needed it to be that big.

Nean1 wrote:

More and more I find people who think that the future of aviation lies in electric, hydrogen and VTOL models. We just need to repeal the laws of physics and chemistry as we know it.

Electric and hydrogen technology in a laboratory is a bit difference to VTOL that is combat proven over decades. There are now over 400 tilt rotors in service.

Nean1 wrote:

Noray wrote:

Nean1 wrote:

The great advantage of the KC-390 is that a nation that has 4 units can use them every day, as if they were commercial aircraft. It can transport more than 20 tons effortlessly, launch loads, launch parachutists through 2 doors simultaneously, as well as refuel from helicopters to supersonic aircraft. There is nothing that comes close in terms of operational performance.

Sounds like you're trying to sell some to the forum crowd. I'm not sure about the correctness of your statement, though (simultaneous launch of parachutes from the A400m has been certified, helicopter refuelling is on the way; also I see lots of activity of the 4 Malaysian A400Ms).

Hercules is an airplane that can be compared to Electra. The KC-390 should be compared to the A320ceo.

The KC-390 respects civil certification, something that Hercules will never meet. The long wings of the Hercules are more prone to fatigue.

Operating higher and faster than the Hercules, the KC-390 has more precise systems for launching cargo, exposing itself less to the enemy.

It seems clear to me that the replacement for Hercules will be the KC-390 and not the A400 (never mind the C2), which is much more complex and offers little more. Everything the A400 has achieved at enormous cost and time the KC-390 has been demonstrating in a much cheaper and less troubled campaign.
I

"For air forces wishing to enter the 21st century with greater operational efficiency and with modern and significantly more capable aircraft, the C-390 Millennium offers unparalleled mobility capabilities, high productivity and flexibility at low operating costs. It is an aircraft designed with a robust design and using state-of-the-art technologies, having been specially developed to operate in austere environments and to perform a wide range of missions with a single platform, with high levels of availability, reliability, safety and capacity. survival.

The C-390 Millennium and the variant KC-390 Millennium fly faster and carry more cargo than other military cargo ships of the same size and are the ideal platforms for the main scenarios of use in humanitarian, tactical and strategic operations. The C-390 and KC-390 Millennium require less inspection and maintenance, with levels of simplification normally associated only with commercial aircraft. This feature, combined with highly reliable systems and components, reduces aircraft time on the ground and total operating costs, contributing to excellent levels of availability and low life cycle cost."

Noray wrote:

Due to budgetary constraints after the Corona crisis, the Brazilian Air Force will try to renegotiate their KC-390 contract. The aim is to limit deliveries to two aircraft per year and to reduce the overall number of KC-390s to be purchased, which is currently 28. The Air Force says that, owing to very good availability and performance of the KC-390, they need less aircraft than previously planned, but they also won't have the money to buy and maintain 28 machines.
https://www.fab.mil.br/noticias/mostra/ ... e%20KC-390 (Portuguese)

Project KC-X3 has been justified following the nation’s response to the Covid pandemic, which was hampered by the lack of large aircraft to transport medical supplies to the Amazon region. The FAB’s most recent large jet transport, a leased Boeing 767, was withdrawn in 2018, leaving the Covid supply burden to fall on the first few KC-390s to be delivered and the C-130 Hercules.

As well as its transport requirements, the FAB also needs a large aircraft for refueling its forthcoming Gripen fighter fleet, especially to support overseas deployments.
...
... although given the extra cost of full military-spec aircraft versus second-hand commercial aircraft, the tanker element of the requirement may be eliminated.

Noray wrote:

Obviously the Brazilian Air Force found that the (refueling) capacitiy of the KC-390 isn't sufficient for some of their tasks and so they plan the additional acquisition of a larger platform. That should eat up some of the financial resources that were designated for the KC-390. Fuel capacity according to Wikipedia: 23,000 kg (50,700 lb), 35,000 kg (77,160 lb) with 3 aux. fuel tanks.

But what is the use case for strategic (refueling) aircraft in Brazil? According to an article from AINonline (Brazil To Cut KC-390 Airlifter Order):

Project KC-X3 has been justified following the nation’s response to the Covid pandemic, which was hampered by the lack of large aircraft to transport medical supplies to the Amazon region. The FAB’s most recent large jet transport, a leased Boeing 767, was withdrawn in 2018, leaving the Covid supply burden to fall on the first few KC-390s to be delivered and the C-130 Hercules.

As well as its transport requirements, the FAB also needs a large aircraft for refueling its forthcoming Gripen fighter fleet, especially to support overseas deployments.
...
... although given the extra cost of full military-spec aircraft versus second-hand commercial aircraft, the tanker element of the requirement may be eliminated.

Nean1 wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YN6EWht84o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTMMt8sf5X8

The KC-390 test campaign continues, now focusing on semi-prepared track operation. Footage of the KC-390 take-off and landing tests on the Embraer test track.

Note the landing without using the turbofan reverse.