Ozair
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Re: Canada - Future Fighter Capability Project

Mon May 13, 2019 9:55 pm

ExMilitaryEng wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
A bit of a monkey wrench in the works; American officials will need to sign off and certify the fighter jet Canada buys to ensure the fighter jet meets American intelligence sharing requirements: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/ ... ion-dnd-2/


Interesting aspect indeed.

While I'm strongly convinced with the US military professionalism in this eventual assessment, I'm not so sure with the political side... So let's say for some reasons non-US aircrafts get disqualified; it could just delay big time the acquisition process (assuming a non-US aircraft was the front runner).

In the mean time, the Canadian "Air" contribution to NORAD/NATO would just get weaker and weaker...

I’m not sure this really means much in the grand scheme of things. The difference between Five eyes info and Two eyes info is pretty vanilla and likely all of the manufacturers would be able to handle it, the issue is who pays for the customization and configuration required. From the requirements specified by Canada in the tender it is incumbent on the bidders to be compliant with the information sharing standards. If the Eurofighter or Gripen is selected and they are not certified then they will have go through the process of securing their systems or processes to allow that to happen, likely at manufacturer cost. Alternatively the contract will likely allow both parties to walk away if the aircraft cannot meet the requirement and receive American approval. This is one of the reasons that Dassault withdrew, because they couldn’t meet the information sharing standards likely at a cost they were willing to bear. Yes it may extend the competition but if the manufacturer makes a claim they are compliant and then is demonstrated not to be it is better to know earlier than later…

This slides both ways through, the US cannot use an aircraft not certified for Two eyes info in NORAD duties so at some point those US aircraft went through the same compliance process.

What we may see though is what I stated earlier in the thread, that Saab will withdraw the Gripen as Dassault already did with the Rafale, as they likely won’t be able to cost effectively meet the requirement.
 
Ozair
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Re: Canada - Future Fighter Capability Project

Fri May 31, 2019 2:26 pm

No surprise that SAAB is offering local assembly of the Gripen for Canada. 88 aircraft is a big enough order that it would be worth it and if Canada ordered they would have a bigger E fleet than Sweden.

Personally I don't think the Gripen has much of a chance especially if they want to manufacture locally as it will increase the cost.

Saab ready to offer Canadian-built Gripen fighters to Ottawa


Saab is ready to sell the Canadian government 88 Canada-built Gripen fighters should Ottawa require home-built aircraft.

The Swedish combat aircraft manufacturer cautions nothing is finalised and its offer will ultimately reflect Canada’s formal request for proposal (RFP). The company expects the final RFP to be issued around midyear by the Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF).

...

Https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... -t-458574/
 
Ozair
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Re: Canada - Future Fighter Capability Project

Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:54 pm

A storm in a teacup I think, it is an airshow after all.

Military allows F-35 to be promoted at fighter jet base in midst of $19B competition

The Canadian military has taken the unprecedented step of allowing the F-35 fighter jet to be promoted at a Quebec base this weekend in the midst of the government’s $19 billion process to purchase new aircraft.

Having only one of the four competing fighter jets on display has further fueled concerns among some industry representatives that the competition is rigged in favour of the F-35.

Lockheed Martin Canada, the subsidiary of the jet’s U.S. manufacturer, has been touting the unique opportunity to market the aircraft’s appearance at Canadian Forces Base Bagotville and the air show there.

Bagotville is one of Canada’s main fighter jet bases.

Alan Williams, the former procurement chief for the Department of National Defence, said the decision is clearly wrong. “It is obviously inappropriate and I’m surprised it would even be sanctioned,” said Williams. “You have to have the appearance of fairness and this doesn’t help at all.”

But the Department of National Defence noted in a statement that Lockheed Martin did not request the F-35 aircraft be displayed at the airshow, nor was it invited to do so. Instead it was the U.S. Air Force that decided to send the F-35 demonstration team to Bagotville, the department noted in an email.

The DND stated that the U.S. Navy Super Hornet team was also invited to Bagotville but they did not select that as one of their exhibit sites.

“All other aircraft that are part of the competition do not have military air demonstration teams in North America,” it added.

...

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/mi ... ot-invited
 
Ozair
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Re: Canada - Future Fighter Capability Project

Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:31 am

I’m not overly surprised at this. I’m not even sure you can blame the Canadians. If Canada are planning to acquire a fighter aircraft to last for the next 40 years, until nearly 2070, then they obviously are going to set the requirements pretty high. Given Airbus is already starting work on a fighter aircraft to supersede the Eurofighter which is expected to enter service only 9 years after the last Eurofighter would be delivered to Canada it makes sense they will struggle with some requirements. Same for Boeing who doesn’t have anything beyond SH and F-15 work.

Be interesting to see whether some of the requirements are altered to keep all four in the race. We also know that Boeing and Airbus struggled against the F-35 in the Denmark competition and the F-35 has improved in cost and capability since then.

Exclusive: Airbus, Boeing indicate they may pull out of Canada fighter jet race - sources

Airbus SE <AIR.PA> and Boeing Co <BA.N> may pull out of a bidding process to supply Canada with new fighter jets because they say the contest is unfairly tilted towards Lockheed Martin Corp <LMT.N>, two sources with direct knowledge of the situation said on Monday.

The three companies competing with Lockheed Martin’s F-35 jet have already complained about the way the contest is being run, and expressed concern some of the specifications clearly favour the U.S. firm, industry sources have said in recent weeks.

Next week the government is due to release the so-called request for proposals – the final list of requirements – for the 88 new planes it wants to buy. The contract is worth between C$15 billion (£9 billion) and C$19 billion and the planes are due to be delivered between 2025 and the early 2030s.

Boeing and Airbus have now formally written to Ottawa expressing concerns about the current requirements, said two sources familiar with the matter who declined to be identified given the sensitivity of the situation. The fourth bidder is Sweden’s Saab AB <SAABb.ST>.

Pat Finn, the defence ministry’s top official in charge of procurement, confirmed one of the four companies had sent a formal letter but gave no details. The final request for proposals is due out on July 17 and modifications are still being considered, he said.

“We continue to engage all four of them,” he said in a telephone interview. “We have had some comments (such as) ‘If changes are not made in such a place then we would frankly consider possibly not bidding.’”

“We are looking at those very seriously. I can’t say that we will make every change, but as far as we know we continue to have four bidders in the race.”

Airbus declined to comment. Boeing did not respond to a request for comment.

...


https://www.euronews.com/2019/07/09/exc ... ce-sources

If it comes down to Gripen vs F-35 I expect the Swedes will also pull out and then Canada, and more especially Trudeau based on his previous election claims, will be left with an interesting choice to make…
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Canada - Future Fighter Capability Project

Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:29 am

Ozair wrote:
I’m not overly surprised at this. I’m not even sure you can blame the Canadians. If Canada are planning to acquire a fighter aircraft to last for the next 40 years, until nearly 2070, then they obviously are going to set the requirements pretty high. Given Airbus is already starting work on a fighter aircraft to supersede the Eurofighter which is expected to enter service only 9 years after the last Eurofighter would be delivered to Canada it makes sense they will struggle with some requirements. Same for Boeing who doesn’t have anything beyond SH and F-15 work.

Be interesting to see whether some of the requirements are altered to keep all four in the race. We also know that Boeing and Airbus struggled against the F-35 in the Denmark competition and the F-35 has improved in cost and capability since then.

Exclusive: Airbus, Boeing indicate they may pull out of Canada fighter jet race - sources

Airbus SE <AIR.PA> and Boeing Co <BA.N> may pull out of a bidding process to supply Canada with new fighter jets because they say the contest is unfairly tilted towards Lockheed Martin Corp <LMT.N>, two sources with direct knowledge of the situation said on Monday.

The three companies competing with Lockheed Martin’s F-35 jet have already complained about the way the contest is being run, and expressed concern some of the specifications clearly favour the U.S. firm, industry sources have said in recent weeks.

Next week the government is due to release the so-called request for proposals – the final list of requirements – for the 88 new planes it wants to buy. The contract is worth between C$15 billion (£9 billion) and C$19 billion and the planes are due to be delivered between 2025 and the early 2030s.

Boeing and Airbus have now formally written to Ottawa expressing concerns about the current requirements, said two sources familiar with the matter who declined to be identified given the sensitivity of the situation. The fourth bidder is Sweden’s Saab AB <SAABb.ST>.

Pat Finn, the defence ministry’s top official in charge of procurement, confirmed one of the four companies had sent a formal letter but gave no details. The final request for proposals is due out on July 17 and modifications are still being considered, he said.

“We continue to engage all four of them,” he said in a telephone interview. “We have had some comments (such as) ‘If changes are not made in such a place then we would frankly consider possibly not bidding.’”

“We are looking at those very seriously. I can’t say that we will make every change, but as far as we know we continue to have four bidders in the race.”

Airbus declined to comment. Boeing did not respond to a request for comment.

...


https://www.euronews.com/2019/07/09/exc ... ce-sources

If it comes down to Gripen vs F-35 I expect the Swedes will also pull out and then Canada, and more especially Trudeau based on his previous election claims, will be left with an interesting choice to make…

What a bloody joke this 'competition' has devolved into...
 
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zululima
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Re: Canada - Future Fighter Capability Project

Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:38 am

ThePointblank wrote:
What a bloody joke this 'competition' has devolved into...


I think India and Canada should team up for a joint-RFP so that multiple hundreds of planes could be endlessly bid, cancelled, and re-bid all in one easy-to-follow farce. The endlessly-potential cost savings could possibly be enormous, perhaps, eventually, around 2035, some politicians believe.
I didn't get a 'Harumph' outta that guy!
 
art
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Re: Canada - Future Fighter Capability Project

Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:01 am

zululima wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
What a bloody joke this 'competition' has devolved into...


I think India and Canada should team up for a joint-RFP so that multiple hundreds of planes could be endlessly bid, cancelled, and re-bid all in one easy-to-follow farce. The endlessly-potential cost savings could possibly be enormous, perhaps, eventually, around 2035, some politicians believe.


Definitely would save a lot of money. Zero expenditure on procurement for 15 years. Then in 2034 they would decide that they should go for a 6G aircraft and start a new competition including the Franco-German-Spanish NGF, British-Swedish-Italian Tempest and American-American-American F-38 with a view to deliveries starting in the 2050-2060 timeframe. ;)
 
Ozair
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Re: Canada - Future Fighter Capability Project

Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:12 pm

Boeing not yet ready to leave the Canadian competition.

Boeing reassures it’s still in the Canadian fighter competition

After a news report that said it might pull out of Canada’s fighter competition, Boeing says it’s still participating in the process and hasn’t made any final decisions.

Boeing and Airbus, which are respectively offering Ottawa the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and the Eurofighter Typhoon, have complained in letters to Canada’s Department of National Defence that its procurement competition is unfairly favouring Lockheed Martin’s F-35A Lightning II stealth fighter, according to a report by Reuters. Boeing declines to comment specifically on the reported complaints.

“We appreciate the transparent nature of this competition, specifically the multiple opportunities to provide formal comments to the government of Canada on draft request for proposals (RFP),” says Boeing. “We continue to be very confident in the Super Hornet Block III capabilities to meet the defence needs of Canada and Boeing’s ability to bring unmatched benefits to the Canadian economy through the aerospace sector.”

...

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... er-459552/

Boeing also made some factually incorrect claims on the capability of the aircraft compared to the F-35 in the same article,

One other reported area of disagreement are Royal Canadian Air Force requirements that emphasise the ability to carry out first strikes on foreign targets, a role which favours the radar evading abilities of the F-35 stealth fighter. In place of stealth abilities, Boeing has pitched the F/A-18E/F’s longer, unrefuelled flight endurance and larger weapons carrying capacity as capabilities that enable the fighter to make missile strikes from stand-off distances, outside the range of enemy radar and air defences.


Not sure how Boeing make that longer range and larger payload claim. It is very clear the F-35 flies further with more payload across the whole envelope as it has a higher internal fuel load (the SH only matches this with the upcoming CFTs) and can fly with both a max fuel load and max weapons payload to its MTOW. The SH to match range will always have to trade weapons space for external fuel, a configuration that isn’t great aerodynamically for the aircraft.
 
Ozair
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Re: Canada - Future Fighter Capability Project

Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:48 am

A lot more to this article than the Executive summary posted below. Some very well-reasoned analysis that takes into account the key aspects of the fighter acquisition and how long it has to last for Canada. Article is a couple of months old.

Anatomy of a Buy: The Four Dimensions of Procuring a Future Fighter for Canada


Purchasing a fleet of fighter aircraft is a complex process with many variables and the Canadian government has a duty to ensure the billions of procurement dollars required are properly spent. The interplay between the four dimensions involved in military procurement (military, technological, economic, and political) defies simple analysis. The government has directed the Canadian Armed Forces to ensure Canadian sovereignty, defend North America, and engage in extraterritorial missions. The Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) has responded to its responsibilities to support these commitments with a thorough, capability-based Statement of Requirements for the future fighter, taking critical functionalities of operating in the future battlespace and emerging technologies into consideration.

The fighters expected to be offered by the four qualified suppliers represent two significant cleavages. The first cleavage is technological/sustainability, namely between fourth- and fifth-generation fighter aircraft and revolves around long-term sustainment costs and future technological adaptability. The second cleavage is commercial/security, specifically European (Eurofighter/Gripen) versus American (F-35/Super Hornet) and enmeshes national security compliance with the government’s desire for tailorable economic packages. The specificity of these cleavages is important to understand as they have repercussions in each of the four decision-making dimensions.

The government’s choice to ensure a competitive process with more than three bidders has resulted in modifications to the assessment of mandatory criteria in critical operational functions, lowering the threshold of performance measurements identified by the RCAF. Suitability and adaptability to two- and five-eyes requirements will be a crucial operational determinant. However, application of the current Industrial and Technological Benefits policy and the measure of points awarded for the economic offset portion in the Request For Proposal appears to undermine the primacy of meeting military needs. Thus, leading to the spectre of the Liberal government’s promise that “We will not buy the F-35 stealth fighter-bomber” becoming a reality through other policy means.

Canada is a North American state with responsibility to protect not only ourselves but our most important strategic partner and neighbour. To maximize effectiveness, any future fighter will need to be fully integral to the North American battlespace as opposed to simply being integrated and interoperable as is the accepted practice in NATO. The deputy minister of National Defence has stated that capability is the core component in the procurement process. Allowing economic benefits to prevail over capability during evaluation inevitably changes the empirical equation of the stated government policy that initiated the purchase in the first place. A fair and balanced competition for the future fighter, uninhibited by overt political interference, needs to occur to ensure the right fighter aircraft is chosen....

https://www.cgai.ca/anatomy_of_a_buy_th ... for_canada

A graph from the article showing the typical cost curves and percentage of overall acquisition the respective phases of the life cycle take.
Image
 
mxaxai
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Re: Canada - Future Fighter Capability Project

Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:34 am

Ozair wrote:
A graph from the article showing the typical cost curves and percentage of overall acquisition the respective phases of the life cycle take.

Very liberal scaling on this graph. The "10 %" development cost definititely fits more than twice in the "15 %" procurement cost and at least eight times in the "70 %" sustainment cost. Particularly the procurement cost is vastly overrepresented.
 
Ozair
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Re: Canada - Future Fighter Capability Project

Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:37 pm

mxaxai wrote:
Ozair wrote:
A graph from the article showing the typical cost curves and percentage of overall acquisition the respective phases of the life cycle take.

Very liberal scaling on this graph. The "10 %" development cost definititely fits more than twice in the "15 %" procurement cost and at least eight times in the "70 %" sustainment cost. Particularly the procurement cost is vastly overrepresented.

LOL, I didn’t even look at the proportions of the graph, just the numbers adding up as expected.
 
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keesje
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Re: Canada - Future Fighter Capability Project

Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:11 am

Maybe a good team for the Frtench to send some Rafales to Canada. For joint training, exercises, inflight refuelling exercises for UN operations. NATO familirization. Send a A330-MRTT with it for the trip.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Ozair
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Re: Canada - Future Fighter Capability Project

Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:28 am

keesje wrote:
Maybe a good team for the Frtench to send some Rafales to Canada. For joint training, exercises, inflight refuelling exercises for UN operations. NATO familirization. Send a A330-MRTT with it for the trip.

Why, Dassault has already withdrawn and as per the Canadian procurement website can no longer submit a bid.
 
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keesje
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Re: Canada - Future Fighter Capability Project

Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:44 am

Ozair wrote:
keesje wrote:
Maybe a good team for the French to send some Rafales to Canada. For joint training, exercises, inflight refuelling exercises for UN operations. NATO familirization. Send a A330-MRTT with it for the trip.

Why, Dassault has already withdrawn and as per the Canadian procurement website can no longer submit a bid.


For joint training, exercises, inflight refuelling exercises for UN operations. NATO familirization. Situations & requirements do also change over time. As we have seen on this program over the last 5 years. Now Airbus & Boeing want to withdraw? https://globalnews.ca/news/5261380/canada-fighter-jet-requirements-cf-18/
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Ozair
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Re: Canada - Future Fighter Capability Project

Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:19 am

keesje wrote:

For joint training, exercises, inflight refuelling exercises for UN operations. NATO familirization.

You think that Canadian aircraft need to do that? Both air forces worked together over Iraq/Syria for almost a year before the Canadians pulled out in 2016. They also flew together at exercise Pitch Black in Australia in 2018. The French and Canadians also flew together during NATO Exercise Trident Juncture last year. I think they have plenty of NATO familiarization and joint training with each other.

keesje wrote:
Situations & requirements do also change over time. As we have seen on this program over the last 5 years.

Keesje, because you seem to forget this frequently, Dassault withdrew.

A France-Dassault team was part of the Supplier List when announced in February. On November 8, 2018, the team informed Canada of its decision to officially withdraw from the competition. France-Dassault is therefore no longer an eligible Supplier in the competitive process, and will not be invited to submit a proposal to Canada.

https://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/app-acq/a ... 8-eng.html

The whole point of the current phase of the competition is to massage requirements based on the feedback from the respective manufacturers, the result of which is that some requirements have changed.

On October 26, 2018, Canada released a first draft of the RFP to eligible Suppliers for their review and feedback. Suppliers had until December 21, 2018, to provide their feedback to Canada. Canada also invited eligible Suppliers for a firsthand look at existing fighter operations and infrastructure at its main operating bases (MOBs) in late 2018.

...

On June 20, 2019, Canada released a second draft of the RFP to eligible suppliers for their final review and feedback. This feedback will be used to finalize the formal RFP for release this summer.

https://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/app-acq/a ... 8-eng.html

Do you get it now? There is no opportunity for Dassault to get back in. Both major political parties are supporting this competition so the upcoming election won't change anything, nor would Dassault suddenly in the future meet the information sharing requirements that forced them to withdraw anyway.

keesje wrote:

Well done. You posted the same news article I did eight days ago. Did you miss the follow up article saying Boeing is not leaving posted five days ago?
 
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keesje
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Re: Canada - Future Fighter Capability Project

Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:23 pm

Ozair wrote:
keesje wrote:

For joint training, exercises, inflight refuelling exercises for UN operations. NATO familirization.

You think that Canadian aircraft need to do that? Both air forces worked together over Iraq/Syria for almost a year before the Canadians pulled out in 2016. They also flew together at exercise Pitch Black in Australia in 2018. The French and Canadians also flew together during NATO Exercise Trident Juncture last year. I think they have plenty of NATO familiarization and joint training with each other.

keesje wrote:
Situations & requirements do also change over time. As we have seen on this program over the last 5 years.

Keesje, because you seem to forget this frequently, Dassault withdrew.

A France-Dassault team was part of the Supplier List when announced in February. On November 8, 2018, the team informed Canada of its decision to officially withdraw from the competition. France-Dassault is therefore no longer an eligible Supplier in the competitive process, and will not be invited to submit a proposal to Canada.

https://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/app-acq/a ... 8-eng.html

The whole point of the current phase of the competition is to massage requirements based on the feedback from the respective manufacturers, the result of which is that some requirements have changed.

On October 26, 2018, Canada released a first draft of the RFP to eligible Suppliers for their review and feedback. Suppliers had until December 21, 2018, to provide their feedback to Canada. Canada also invited eligible Suppliers for a firsthand look at existing fighter operations and infrastructure at its main operating bases (MOBs) in late 2018.

...

On June 20, 2019, Canada released a second draft of the RFP to eligible suppliers for their final review and feedback. This feedback will be used to finalize the formal RFP for release this summer.

https://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/app-acq/a ... 8-eng.html

Do you get it now? There is no opportunity for Dassault to get back in. Both major political parties are supporting this competition so the upcoming election won't change anything, nor would Dassault suddenly in the future meet the information sharing requirements that forced them to withdraw anyway.

keesje wrote:

Well done. You posted the same news article I did eight days ago. Did you miss the follow up article saying Boeing is not leaving posted five days ago?


Ozair, you seem to miss the point that processes like this are highly politcal. The requirements, contenders change over time. And if the process is coming to conclusion, the plug can be pulled anyway because of changed relations, requirements, political priorities, international situations, who knows. Maybe they'll conclude 2 aircraft are the best solution. It's all tax payer money, they have something to say too.

The F35, F18, Typhoon might all be pulled, now and then.
https://www.defensenews.com/air/2019/05/08/us-canada-talks-underway-to-decide-if-the-f-35-will-be-pulled-from-canadas-fighter-competition/

Political relations between US and Canadian are vibrant.
https://news.yahoo.com/trudeau-slammed-trumps-racist-remarks-112134702.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAA8DPicQK2AWXWe8ICl7gPl3R0FV30YWVFZuLkazlsKiotkxlzuLN3XhdjvLNo_ZoB--FFK1PqJ44pbBOOz2R8VdkioF-CVOQ0j7KprfRjqX-ZC_BzK2hinH4qEPeAcTw573s6GgXLJCm4OfIYMgKzsaH3NqOy7_fQryx9tb94F5

Things can change, these are long term decisions. Some of those leaders are actually happy to meet, even if they disagree.
https://imgcdn.pakistanpoint.com/media/2018/11/_3/730x425/pic_1541445444.jpg
https://d3i6fh83elv35t.cloudfront.net/static/2019/06/2019-06-20T170445Z_1103368435_RC1644B12660_RTRMADP_3_USA-CANADA1-1024x683.jpg
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Ozair
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Re: Canada - Future Fighter Capability Project

Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:05 pm

keesje wrote:

Ozair, you seem to miss the point that processes like this are highly politcal. The requirements, contenders change over time. And if the process is coming to conclusion, the plug can be pulled anyway because of changed relations, requirements, political priorities, international situations, who knows. Maybe they'll conclude 2 aircraft are the best solution. It's all tax payer money, they have something to say too.

Sorry Keesje, the data does not support your conclusion. Canada just signed up for the largest defence project in its history, the T26 program, with LM as the prime. If anti-american sentiment were such as issue why would they have gone with LM as the prime for a British designed vessel? The Canadian procurement policy is very clear and the RFP is also clear on the selection criteria and the respectvie weighting. Political preference is not an input into the process.

keesje wrote:

And you again missed the update where the Canadians changed the requirements, exactly as I indicated they were able to do via the quotes I posted above, the ensure that the F-35 can still participate. The below article was published just two days after the one you linked.

Canada changes fighter jet rules to allow F-35 bid
The Canadian government will allow a “flexible approach” in determining industrial benefits for the new fighter jet program, making way for Lockheed Martin and the U.S. government to bid on the project.

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/national ... w-f-35-bid


keesje wrote:

Keesje, this has literally no bearing on the competition. Trump isn’t selling the aircraft, the US Government is and Canada is buying an aircraft that has to last the Canadian Military for the next 40 years. Even if Trump were re-elected he still wouldn’t be in office by the time the first aircraft is delivered. Canada remains a strong ally of the US and the two have a special "two eyes" relationship (the data Dassault acknowledged it wouldn't be able to handle) based around NORAD. Neither Trump or Trudeau will impact that relationship.

keesje wrote:

LOL, absolutely irrelevant Keesje.

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