YIMBY
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Re: Canada - Future Fighter Capability Project

Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:04 am

Ozair wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
So the big question is, which fighters will be in production then?

Well from the list of potential candidates approached by Canada,

F-35 – Confirmed and there will be ~1300 F-35s flying by 2025.
Rafale- Confirmed (The French recently announced plans for additional aircraft out to 2025).
Super Hornet – Unlikely. With only Kuwait to go for export and likely limited USN purchases going forward its days are numbered.
Eurofighter – Probably. It will at least be in production until 2022 when the Canadians plan to sign a contract so if selected it would be able to continue production and fulfil a Canadian order.
Gripen E – Unlikely candidate but will be in production in that timeframe.


Depends a lot of other countries' decision. Other than unpredictable ME countries purchasing unpredictable amount of unpredictable planes, in Europe at least Finland will buy a rather equal amount of rather similar planes probably just before Canada (Poland etc less likely and smaller amounts). Finnish conditions are rather similar to Canada (cold weather, road strips to be used as airfield) but military environment is very different. There is a small chance that Finland will make Eurofighter to survive until Canadian order and smaller chance for Super Hornet (if that is politically eligible for Canada anyway, but which is then).
 
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keesje
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Re: Canada - Future Fighter Capability Project

Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:00 pm

I think over the last 3 months the chances for the Rafale have not been reduced. The partnerships between US (Trump), France (Macron), Canada (Trudeau) and Germany (Merkel) changed of time. The US decided to focus on their own needs / interest and that's their good right.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Ozair
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Re: Canada - Future Fighter Capability Project

Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:28 pm

YIMBY wrote:
Depends a lot of other countries' decision. Other than unpredictable ME countries purchasing unpredictable amount of unpredictable planes, in Europe at least Finland will buy a rather equal amount of rather similar planes probably just before Canada (Poland etc less likely and smaller amounts). Finnish conditions are rather similar to Canada (cold weather, road strips to be used as airfield) but military environment is very different. There is a small chance that Finland will make Eurofighter to survive until Canadian order and smaller chance for Super Hornet (if that is politically eligible for Canada anyway, but which is then).

It does depend. While Rafale will have domestic orders past 2022 the UK and Italian Eurofighter lines will be reliant on exports, which are already identified, as I don’t see any further orders coming from the partner nations.

There has been a change in the fortunes of the SH and a saving grace for Boeing as the US in their just released defence budget stated a plan to continue procuring SH, so that will continue into the early 2020s, ensuring that there is at least a production line available to order from. I haven’t seen any reports further to the earlier statement that Boeing hadn’t even bothered to turn up to the Industry brief and signaled their intent by the 9th of February. I haven’t found any news reports on this either.

Finland will probably end up making their decision either the year before or at about the same time as Canada so it will be interesting to see how they go.

keesje wrote:
I think over the last 3 months the chances for the Rafale have not been reduced. The partnerships between US (Trump), France (Macron), Canada (Trudeau) and Germany (Merkel) changed of time. The US decided to focus on their own needs / interest and that's their good right.

Given the Canadians will be making the final decision in 2022 I doubt Trump will be a factor. Despite your suggestion Canada is still close to the US politically and militarily and the demands of NORAD “trump” those of NATO, especially under Trudeau. While Rafale is certainly not excluded from the competition there are some obvious issues with selecting it, including integrating into the NORAD structure, weapons compatibility and the lack of industrial support or industry return. Plus it will not be either the most capable platform or the cheapest in 2022 when the decision is made.
 
bigjku
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Re: Canada - Future Fighter Capability Project

Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:48 pm

I feel like equally as likely as any order getting placed is Canada simply not buying anything at all. They are trending more and more in that direction. I wouldn’t be stunned if they just get out of the business.
 
ExMilitaryEng
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Re: Canada - Future Fighter Capability Project

Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:42 pm

bigjku wrote:
I wouldn’t be stunned if they just get out of the business.

:rotfl:

That would result in quite a lot of savings; so let's cut defense spending! (As some of our European NATO allies are already doing).
 
ExMilitaryEng
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Re: Canada - Future Fighter Capability Project

Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:35 pm

Ozair wrote:
If we take that US$20 billion and divide by the 88 aircraft then Canada pays an extra US$220 million for each jet in dev costs… They could of course do it on the cheap and buy an existing radar, engine, EW suite etc but that just translates to Canada system integrating, and taking all the associated risk that brings, while providing little benefit to Canadian Industry.

(Hypothetic discussion here obviously) If we are to spend that kind of money for an indigenous fighter program with little hope for exports, may as well look for another type of aircraft that we can actually profitably export.

Let's make a RFP for a Maritime Patrol Aircraft, a Military transport, and why not, a refueller, all of which would be (curiously :mrgreen: ) exactly tailored to the specs of a CS500. (And with the exact same dimensions as we want them to fit in some specific hangars) :twisted:

Obviously, get the government to pay 100% of the R&D and the certification process. :stirthepot:
 
cumulushumilis
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Re: Canada - Future Fighter Capability Project

Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:58 am

ExMilitaryEng wrote:
bigjku wrote:
I wouldn’t be stunned if they just get out of the business.

:rotfl:

That would result in quite a lot of savings; so let's cut defense spending! (As some of our European NATO allies are already doing).



We just did the opposite and bought back into the NATO AWACS program that the Conservatives withdrew us from in 2011.
 
Ozair
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Re: Canada - Future Fighter Capability Project

Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:27 pm

So it appears that Boeing has decided to join the competition to replace the CF-18.

Boeing stays in race to supply Canada with fighter jets: sources

OTTAWA (Reuters) - Boeing Co, locked in a trade dispute with the Canadian government, has applied to stay in the race to supply Canada with 88 new fighter jets, three well-placed sources said on Thursday.

Companies had until Feb. 9 to express an interest in taking part in a competition for planes worth between C$15 billion ($12.1 billion) and C$19 billion. Ottawa will release its specifications next year, at which point firms can bid.

Boeing did let Canada know it was interested, said the sources, who requested anonymity because they were not authorized to speak to the media. The decision does not mean the firm will necessarily put forward its F-18 Super Hornet.

Boeing did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cana ... SKCN1FZ2M9

Not sure what else Boeing would offer other tha the F-18, I don't see how the F-15 would be selected by Canada.

Noting the article mentioning the anonymity of the source, it is worth posting this news report on how the Liberals continue to undertake unprecedented steps to ensure there is little clarity to this competition.

Don't talk to journalists, Canadian government warns companies interested in fighter jet contract

Companies interested in the Liberal government’s planned purchase of new fighter jets have been told not to talk to journalists despite claims by federal officials the process will be open and transparent.

Those company representatives taking part in the Jan. 22 industry day in Ottawa, which outlined initial details about the proposed $19 billion acquisition, were required to sign a form agreeing not to share information with the media, according to documents obtained by Postmedia.

“Your registration to this event acknowledges your agreement to not share information or materials obtained at the event with the media, and certifies that you are not a member of the media,” the form noted.

The Liberal government’s quest to buy new fighter jets has been controversial, with mixed signals and bungled deals.

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said earlier his government would not buy the F-35 stealth fighter, claiming it didn’t work. His government later reversed course, adding that F-35 manufacturer Lockheed Martin was welcome to offer their plane to Canada in any competition.

In 2016, the Liberals launched a plan to buy new Super Hornet jets from Boeing as an interim measure, only to scuttle that deal a year later because of a trade war involving the U.S. firm.

Instead, the government says it will now buy used F-18 jets from Australia.

The gag order on the industry day event was forwarded to Postmedia by company representatives concerned about the excessive government secrecy on a program that will cost taxpayers $19 billion.

Public Services and Procurement Canada did not comment on the issue.

But it is not the first attempt by the Liberals to crack down on what information might make its way to the public or news media about the multi-billion program.

In November 2016 it was revealed the Liberal government brought in an unprecedented gag order that prevents 235 Canadian military personnel and federal workers from ever talking about the program.

The non-disclosure agreement for the equipment project puts the fighter jet replacement on the same level as top secret counter-terrorism missions undertaken by the Joint Task Force 2 commando unit as well as clandestine operations by the country’s spies, military sources say.

The permanent non-disclosure agreements were uncovered by Conservative defence critic James Bezan after he requested information through the House of Commons “inquiry of ministry” process.

The information provided to Bezan noted that 121 individuals at the Department of National Defence were required to sign the non-disclosure agreement, 39 at Public Services and Procurement Canada; and 18 at Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada. The rest of the 235 were employed by the Department of Finance, Treasury Board, Department of Justice and Privy Council Office.

Five other individuals working on the fighter jet replacement project who are under contract to DND were also required to sign the non-disclosure agreement or NDA.

“The NDA is a life-time agreement,” the response to Bezan noted. Persons signing the NDA are considered “persons permanently bound to secrecy” on the future fighter jet capability project, it added.

Defence industry executives and retired public servants say they have never seen such secrecy surrounding an equipment program.

The DND claimed that such agreements have been used with procurement staff before on occasion.

But Alan Williams, the former assistant deputy minister for materiel at the DND, has said that he had never heard of such agreements. Over the years Williams oversaw hundreds of equipment projects at both DND and Public Works, worth billions of dollars.

The fighter jet industry day involved some 200 participants from 108 companies. Some of those who attended questioned why government officials at the meeting could only provide basic details about the fighter jet program. Industry representatives noted that the purchase, which would see a contract awarded in 2021 or 2022, seems drawn out, considering federal procurement officials have been involved in trying to buy a new jet since 2010.

http://nationalpost.com/news/politics/d ... t-contract
 
ExMilitaryEng
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Re: Canada - Future Fighter Capability Project

Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:15 am

I guess the Liberals don't want the public to know that the F-35 might end up the only suitable choice remaining.

We'll all get to know more after the election...
 
Ozair
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Re: Canada - Future Fighter Capability Project

Fri Feb 23, 2018 2:26 am

Now confirmed by the Canadian Government that Boing is one of the vendors for the CF-18 replacement. No surprise right now on the 5 respective candidates but I wonder how many will drop off over the next two years as further details and requirements for the new project are released.

Boeing rejoins competitive field for Canadian fighter deal

The Canadian government has announced that five bidders — Boeing, Dassault, Eurofighter, Lockheed Martin and Saab — are eligible to compete for a long sought-after contract to replace the country’s 88 CF-18 fighters.

The disclosure of the Future Fighter Capabilities Project (FFCP)’s official Supplier’s List ends a mystery about whether Boeing would decline to participate after angering Canadian government officials.

The Supplier’s List shows that Royal Canadian Air Force’s options remain plentiful, with the Typhoon, Rafale, Gripen, Super Hornet and F-35 Lightning II available for purchase. The release of the government’s Supplier’s List does not mean the companies are committed to submitting bids for the contract award scheduled 2021 or 2022.

“We will continue to evaluate our participation in the FFCP as the Government of Canada outlines the procurement approach, requirements and evaluation criteria,” Boeing says.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... te-446146/
 
Ozair
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Re: Canada - Future Fighter Capability Project

Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:57 am

Some additional info on the Canadian fighter replacement program. Bringing in an independent third party reviewer is a good idea and will hopefully alleviate some of the concerns people have with the competition and the final selection.

Update on new fighter jet project to replace CF-18 fleet

The federal government has embarked on a couple of initiatives to support the project to buy a new fleet of fighter jets for the RCAF. The aircraft will replace the air force’s CF-18s.

Through a Request for Proposal issued Tuesday, the Canadian government will be hiring an independent third-party reviewer to help validate various procurement documents and support processes relating to the Future Fighter Capability Project. The reviewer’s role will be to provide defence procurement and financial expert analysis to ensure that the procurement approach “is designed to deliver the desired outcomes,” according to Public Services and Procurement Canada.

The list of eligible suppliers for the new fighter jet includes the following teams (in alphabetical order):

France—Dassault Aviation (Thales DMS France SAS and Safran Aircraft Engines)
Sweden—SAAB AB (publ)—Aeronautics
United Kingdom and Northern Ireland—Airbus Defense and Space GmbH
United States—Lockheed Martin Corporation (Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company)
United States—The Boeing Company
Only these suppliers will be invited to participate in subsequent formal engagement activities and to submit proposals, according to the government.

In parallel with discussions with these suppliers, the Canadian government will continue to talk to other firms to gather and share general information related to the procurement. This aims to make sure that Canadian aerospace and defence firms can play a role in the procurement.


Innovation, Science and Economic Development, in partnership with National Defence and Public Services and Procurement will conduct regional forums across Canada, according to the federal government. These forums, to be held in the cities listed below, will be an opportunity for the Canadian aerospace and defence sectors to learn more about the Industrial and Technological Benefits Policy including the Value Proposition and to engage with potential prime contractors:

Monday, April 23—Ottawa, Ontario
Tuesday, April 24—Toronto, Ontario
Wednesday, April 25—Winnipeg, Manitoba
Friday, April 27—Vancouver, British Columbia
Monday, April 30—Halifax, Nova Scotia
Tuesday, May 1—Montreal, Quebec

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/ ... f-18-fleet
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Canada - Future Fighter Capability Project

Fri Jul 27, 2018 3:44 am

The Auditor General is investigating claims that there was a 'capability gap' and a stopgap was needed to fill the gap immediately:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/ ... aims-of-a/

Canada’s auditor general has started to dig into one of the Trudeau government’s most contentious claims, upon which rests the fate of hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars: that the country is facing an urgent shortage of fighter jets.

The claim was first made in November, 2016, when the Liberals announced that Canada didn’t have enough fighter jets to defend North America and simultaneously meet the country’s NATO commitments, and that a stopgap was urgently needed until the entire CF-18 fleet could be replaced.

The government originally planned to buy 18 interim Super Hornets from Boeing for $6.4-billion before the deal was scuttled late last year in favour of buying 25 used jets from Australia for $500-million.

But critics, including opposition parties and former air force commanders, accuse the government of fabricating an urgent “capability gap” – as the shortfall is known – by changing the military’s requirements to avoid having to buy the F-35 stealth fighter.


The Auditor General is also investigating the costs and impact for extending the life of the CF-18 fleet. This report should be out in the fall.
 
bigjku
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Re: Canada - Future Fighter Capability Project

Fri Jul 27, 2018 4:51 pm

ThePointblank wrote:
The Auditor General is investigating claims that there was a 'capability gap' and a stopgap was needed to fill the gap immediately:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/ ... aims-of-a/

Canada’s auditor general has started to dig into one of the Trudeau government’s most contentious claims, upon which rests the fate of hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars: that the country is facing an urgent shortage of fighter jets.

The claim was first made in November, 2016, when the Liberals announced that Canada didn’t have enough fighter jets to defend North America and simultaneously meet the country’s NATO commitments, and that a stopgap was urgently needed until the entire CF-18 fleet could be replaced.

The government originally planned to buy 18 interim Super Hornets from Boeing for $6.4-billion before the deal was scuttled late last year in favour of buying 25 used jets from Australia for $500-million.

But critics, including opposition parties and former air force commanders, accuse the government of fabricating an urgent “capability gap” – as the shortfall is known – by changing the military’s requirements to avoid having to buy the F-35 stealth fighter.


The Auditor General is also investigating the costs and impact for extending the life of the CF-18 fleet. This report should be out in the fall.


This should let Canada delay things yet again. It seems like it’s just time to fess up. Canada has no intention of actually defending itself of contributing militarily to NATO. The budget keeps being cut and actual programs keep getting put off.

The fighter plans are a joke. The frigate program has been delayed and delayed and I won’t be shocked if it gets rebid. The submarine program has been awful. The army has been reduced to almost nothing in terms of combat power really.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Canada - Future Fighter Capability Project

Sat Jul 28, 2018 7:48 am

bigjku wrote:

The fighter plans are a joke. The frigate program has been delayed and delayed and I won’t be shocked if it gets rebid. The submarine program has been awful. The army has been reduced to almost nothing in terms of combat power really.


Buy Type 26 like the Aussies did and reap the rewards in being part of a large program.
 
bigjku
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Re: Canada - Future Fighter Capability Project

Sat Jul 28, 2018 10:31 am

Kiwirob wrote:
bigjku wrote:

The fighter plans are a joke. The frigate program has been delayed and delayed and I won’t be shocked if it gets rebid. The submarine program has been awful. The army has been reduced to almost nothing in terms of combat power really.


Buy Type 26 like the Aussies did and reap the rewards in being part of a large program.


Agree there. A good sign they are serious about turning budget into capability would be if they bought them from the U.K. yards as well.
 
Ozair
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Re: Canada - Future Fighter Capability Project

Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:14 pm

No really much in the way of new information but the submission of bids by May next year. I'd expect some sort of down selection from the five bidders to perhaps two before final offers are tabled.

Canada to accept bids for new fighter jet in May — here are the potential competitors

Canada expects to accept formal bids for a new fighter jet in May, with the first aircraft delivered by 2025, according to Canadian government procurement officials.

A draft bid package for 88 fighters was issued to companies for their feedback by the end of this year, said Pat Finn, assistant deputy minister for materiel at the Department of National Defence. From there, the final bidding instructions for the CA$16 billion (U.S. $12 billion) procurement will be issued and bids required by May 2019, he added.

The aircraft will replace Canada’s current fleet of CF-18 fighter jets. The aircraft expected to be considered include Lockheed Martin’s F-35, the Eurofighter Typhoon, the Dassault Rafale, Saab’s Gripen and the Boeing Super Hornet.

The Canadian government will require a robust package of guaranteed industrial benefits or offsets from the winning bidder, government officials said. But that could be a problem for the F-35, as Canada is still a partner in that program, which does not guarantee participating-nations contracts. Work on the F-35 program is based on best value and price.

Canadian industrial participation in the F-35 program has reached $1 billion, as more than 110 Canadian firms have landed contracts related to the aircraft program.

Jeff Waring, director general for industrial benefits policy at the federal Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada, said the country sees the fighter jet program as a “once-in-a-generation opportunity for the Canadian economy.”

But he noted the industrial benefits policy is flexible. “It is a market-driven approach,” he said. “It encourages suppliers to make investments that make sense to them.”

The issue of industrial benefits has already been discussed with companies interested in bidding on the project, and those talks will continue as feedback is received on the draft bid package, government officials said.

https://www.defensenews.com/global/the- ... mpetitors/
 
Ozair
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Re: Canada - Future Fighter Capability Project

Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:33 pm

Canada continues to try its luck at “having its cake and eating it too”. They continue to pay F-35 program dues to maintain F-35 contracts then run an open competition to select their new fighter aircraft. If the aircraft is not the F-35 then out of the Industrial program they will go, no matter what they have paid to date.

Many of the partner nations will be happy to see them go if it provides more opportunity for their own industries.

Ottawa sticking to F-35 program as it gets ready for full fighter competition

Canada is facing a complex challenge as it gets ready to launch a full competition for new fighter jets stemming from its long-standing involvement in the international coalition that is building the Lockheed Martin Corp. F-35 stealth aircraft.

The federal government confirmed on Monday that it will maintain its membership in the F-35 consortium. At the same time, Ottawa is getting ready to send out requests for proposals for new fighter jets to five potential bidders, including Lockheed Martin.

Federal officials insist that all bidders will have to adhere to Canada’s Industrial and Technological Benefits policy (ITB), which requires the winning supplier to “make investments in Canada equal to the value of the contract." The cost of replacing the Royal Canadian Air Force’s current fleet of CF-18s is estimated at $26-billion.

Under the rules of the F-35 consortium, however, partner countries such as Canada must forego such regional offset programs, which have long been a central element of Canadian military acquisitions. Earlier this year, Canada paid $54-million to remain in the F-35 buyers’ pool.

“We’re keeping our involvement alive to get access to that product at the best possible terms,” Pat Finn, an assistant deputy minister at the Department of National Defence, said in an interview on Monday. “If the F-35 were to win, the lowest cost access to the aircraft is through the partnership. Having been involved from the outset, we don’t want to lose the privilege of that."

Since 1997, Canada has paid nearly half a billion dollars to stay in the F-35 consortium.
Jeff Waring, a director-general at Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada, said it will be up to Lockheed Martin to determine how it can meet Canada’s requirement for regional offsets if it wants to bid on the contract.

“The ITB policy is a market-driven approach; it doesn’t prescribe to bidders how they need to invest in Canada,” he said.
The federal government has nearly finalized its request for proposal for the new fighter jets. It is now waiting for industry feedback over the next six weeks before launching the formal competition next year.

Three European companies (Dassault Aviation, Saab Automobile and Airbus) and two American companies (Lockheed Martin and Boeing Co.) have said they intend to bid on the contract.

In the draft request for proposal, the government has laid out new details on its “economic impact test” that will penalize companies that are deemed to have a negative effect on the Canadian economy. When it was announced last year, the test was dubbed the “Boeing clause” because of U.S.-based Boeing’s trade dispute with Canada’s Bombardier Inc., which Bombardier subsequently won.

The new measure is expected to look at whether companies have launched a trade action in the two previous years against a Canadian company. Given Boeing launched its case against Bombardier in 2017, it will likely be in the clear by the time it would have to submit a final bid in 2020.

The previous Conservative government had committed to buying F-35 fighter jets, which were deemed at the time to be the only aircraft able to meet Canada’s requirements, in large part because of their stealth capabilities.

The current Liberal government has modified the requirements to make sure there can be competition between the various manufacturers.

“If your aircraft cannot meet [a requirement] today, we are not saying automatically that you’re out; but you have to tell us what is your solution to meet it, at what price and what schedule,” said Mr. Finn.

In the last federal election, the Liberals said in their platform that they would not buy the F-35, promising instead to select “one of the many, lower-priced options that better match Canada’s defence needs.”

However, the Liberals also promised to launch an “open and transparent” competition, which is now scheduled to be launched in May.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politic ... l-fighter/
 
Ozair
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Re: Canada - Future Fighter Capability Project

Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:36 am

keesje wrote:
I think over the last 3 months the chances for the Rafale have not been reduced.

The following may be a surprise to supporters of the Rafale in Canada... Nothing confirmed yet but it seems likely that Dassault will pull out and you would subsequently expect Saab to probably pull out as well for similar information sharing reasons. Saab may have BAE backing for their information sharing but the cost to bid will be high. Add in BAE having a stake in both the Eurofighter and the F-35 and it seems unlikely that the Gripen will be competitive.

French firm Dassault pulls out of fighter-jet competition: Sources

The long effort to replace Canada’s aging fighter jets took another surprise twist on Tuesday, as multiple sources revealed that French fighter-jet maker Dassault is pulling out of the multibillion-dollar competition.

The decision comes just over a week after the federal government published the military’s requirements for a replacement for Canada’s CF-18s as well as a draft process by which a winning supplier will be chosen.

Dassault had repeatedly pitched its Rafale aircraft to Canada over the years as successive governments in Ottawa have wrestled with selecting a new fighter jet. Dassault’s pitch included significant promises, including that it would assemble the planes in Canada.

But sources tell The Canadian Press that Dassault’s decision to withdraw was related to the fact France is not a member of the Five Eyes intelligence-sharing network, which counts the U.S., Britain, Australia, New Zealand and Canada as members. The five members have very specific requirements for how their equipment works together.

The French government, which had been closely working with Dassault as the most recent iteration of Canada’s fighter-replacement program has inched along over the past year, was preparing to notify Ottawa of the company’s withdrawal.

The move leaves four companies — U.S. aerospace giants Lockheed Martin and Boeing, European competitor Airbus and Swedish firm Saab — competing for the $19-billion contract to replace Canada’s 76 CF-18s with 88 new fighters.

A contract isn’t expected to be awarded until 2021 or 2022, with delivery of the first new aircraft slated for 2025. In the meantime, the government is planning to upgrade its CF-18s and buy 25 used fighters from Australia as a stopgap.

Dassault faced several significant challenges in meeting Canada’s requirements for a new fighter, said defence analyst David Perry of the Canadian Global Affairs Institute, and while they weren’t insurmountable, they would have cost time and money.

Those challenges included meeting those Five-Eyes intelligence-sharing requirements, which Perry said put Dassault at a distinct disadvantage in the competition when compared to Lockheed Martin, Boeing and, to a certain degree, Airbus.

“For any of the non-American companies, solving the Five-Eyes interoperability issues is going to be challenging,” he said, noting that the U.S. in particular is very sensitive about data-sharing.

“And it costs companies a lot of money to mount and pursue bids. So if they think at this point in time that it’s not a realistic prospect, then pulling out is pretty understandable.”

That could explain why Dassault never established a strong presence in Canada during the many years when it was trying to sell the Rafale as a replacement for the CF-18, he added.

The CF-18s are about 35 years old. Canada’s attempts to buy a new fighter jet have dragged on for nearly a decade after the previous Conservative government announced in 2010 that Canada would buy 65 F-35s without a competition, with the first to be delivered in 2015.

But the Tories pushed the reset button in 2012 after the auditor general raised questions about the program and National Defence revealed the jets would cost $46 billion over their lifetimes.

After campaigning on a promise not to buy the F-35s, the Trudeau Liberals announced in November 2016 they would take their time with a competition to replace the CF-18s, and buy 18 “interim” Boeing Super Hornets without a competition because Canada needed more fighter jets badly.

But then Boeing’s trade dispute with Canadian rival Bombardier saw the Liberals scrap their plan to buy Super Hornets and instead begin talks to buy 18 used fighter jets from Australia. A contract for those used planes is expected in the coming weeks.

The formal competition to replace the CF-18s is scheduled to begin next spring.

https://vancouversun.com/pmn/news-pmn/c ... 6317a46fd2
 
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keesje
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Re: Canada - Future Fighter Capability Project

Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:54 pm

Ozair wrote:
keesje wrote:
I think over the last 3 months the chances for the Rafale have not been reduced.

The following may be a surprise to supporters of the Rafale in Canada... Nothing confirmed yet but it seems likely that Dassault will pull out and you would subsequently expect Saab to probably pull out as well for similar information sharing reasons. Saab may have BAE backing for their information sharing but the cost to bid will be high. Add in BAE having a stake in both the Eurofighter and the F-35 and it seems unlikely that the Gripen will be competitive.

French firm Dassault pulls out of fighter-jet competition: Sources

The long effort to replace Canada’s aging fighter jets took another surprise twist on Tuesday, as multiple sources revealed that French fighter-jet maker Dassault is pulling out of the multibillion-dollar competition.

The decision comes just over a week after the federal government published the military’s requirements for a replacement for Canada’s CF-18s as well as a draft process by which a winning supplier will be chosen.

Dassault had repeatedly pitched its Rafale aircraft to Canada over the years as successive governments in Ottawa have wrestled with selecting a new fighter jet. Dassault’s pitch included significant promises, including that it would assemble the planes in Canada.

But sources tell The Canadian Press that Dassault’s decision to withdraw was related to the fact France is not a member of the Five Eyes intelligence-sharing network, which counts the U.S., Britain, Australia, New Zealand and Canada as members. The five members have very specific requirements for how their equipment works together.

The French government, which had been closely working with Dassault as the most recent iteration of Canada’s fighter-replacement program has inched along over the past year, was preparing to notify Ottawa of the company’s withdrawal.

The move leaves four companies — U.S. aerospace giants Lockheed Martin and Boeing, European competitor Airbus and Swedish firm Saab — competing for the $19-billion contract to replace Canada’s 76 CF-18s with 88 new fighters.

A contract isn’t expected to be awarded until 2021 or 2022, with delivery of the first new aircraft slated for 2025. In the meantime, the government is planning to upgrade its CF-18s and buy 25 used fighters from Australia as a stopgap.

Dassault faced several significant challenges in meeting Canada’s requirements for a new fighter, said defence analyst David Perry of the Canadian Global Affairs Institute, and while they weren’t insurmountable, they would have cost time and money.

Those challenges included meeting those Five-Eyes intelligence-sharing requirements, which Perry said put Dassault at a distinct disadvantage in the competition when compared to Lockheed Martin, Boeing and, to a certain degree, Airbus.

“For any of the non-American companies, solving the Five-Eyes interoperability issues is going to be challenging,” he said, noting that the U.S. in particular is very sensitive about data-sharing.

“And it costs companies a lot of money to mount and pursue bids. So if they think at this point in time that it’s not a realistic prospect, then pulling out is pretty understandable.”

That could explain why Dassault never established a strong presence in Canada during the many years when it was trying to sell the Rafale as a replacement for the CF-18, he added.

The CF-18s are about 35 years old. Canada’s attempts to buy a new fighter jet have dragged on for nearly a decade after the previous Conservative government announced in 2010 that Canada would buy 65 F-35s without a competition, with the first to be delivered in 2015.

But the Tories pushed the reset button in 2012 after the auditor general raised questions about the program and National Defence revealed the jets would cost $46 billion over their lifetimes.

After campaigning on a promise not to buy the F-35s, the Trudeau Liberals announced in November 2016 they would take their time with a competition to replace the CF-18s, and buy 18 “interim” Boeing Super Hornets without a competition because Canada needed more fighter jets badly.

But then Boeing’s trade dispute with Canadian rival Bombardier saw the Liberals scrap their plan to buy Super Hornets and instead begin talks to buy 18 used fighter jets from Australia. A contract for those used planes is expected in the coming weeks.

The formal competition to replace the CF-18s is scheduled to begin next spring.

https://vancouversun.com/pmn/news-pmn/c ... 6317a46fd2


The French are escalating the topic, lets see what happens. How are the government relations these days?
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Ozair
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Re: Canada - Future Fighter Capability Project

Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:33 pm

keesje wrote:
The French are escalating the topic, lets see what happens. How are the government relations these days?

That is highly unlikely Keesje, Trudeau won’t be able to change the NORAD specific requirements of the tender, especially as the tender documents have already been released to the respective bidders. It would create an instant protest point and with an election less than 12 months away Trudeau doesn't need that kind of publicity.
 
Ozair
Posts: 3117
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Re: Canada - Future Fighter Capability Project

Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:22 pm

Just to make it clear what the issue around Five Eyes data is you can read the following, https://www.aeromontreal.ca/download/fc ... LETIER.pdf in which slide 7 goes specifically into the information issue.

On slide 11 we see how important that sharing is, with it listed as the number one requirement

1 Interoperability : NORAD, NATO, safeguard shared 5/2 Eyes intelligence
2 Upgradeability : Ability to maintain Operational Advantage against current and future threats
3 Performance: Range, endurance and speeds required in NORAD and NATO mission configurations
4 Awareness : Ability to gather intelligence, detect, track, identify, assess in permissive and contested environments
5 Survivability : Ability to operate in permissive and contested environment
6 Lethality : Ability to effectively carry out its assigned tasks in permissive and contested environment
7 Sustainability: Ability to sustain Force Generation and Force Employment systems throughout service life


Obviously this is the RCAF side of the deal and there is the industry participation side that has to be considered but you get the idea of how important and valued that information relationship is. To put it clearly, it transcends the political rabble.

To give further understanding to the difference in information sharing between respective nations, there is the ACURL lab for F-35 at Eglin which handles specific F-35 mission programming for Australia, Canada and the UK.

In the US a software reprogramming laboratory is also under construction, which will support JSF aircraft from Australia, Canada (should Canada eventually purchase the F-35) and the UK. Known as the ACURL (Australia, Canada, UK Reprogramming Laboratory), the facility is adjacent to a similar USRL (for the US Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps) and NIRL (for Norway and Italy). A further reprogramming laboratory will support the remaining partner nations and FMS customers at NAS Point Mugu in California.

http://www.australiandefence.com.au/def ... -lightning
 
ThePointblank
Posts: 3063
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:39 pm

Re: Canada - Future Fighter Capability Project

Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:00 am

Ozair wrote:
keesje wrote:
The French are escalating the topic, lets see what happens. How are the government relations these days?

That is highly unlikely Keesje, Trudeau won’t be able to change the NORAD specific requirements of the tender, especially as the tender documents have already been released to the respective bidders. It would create an instant protest point and with an election less than 12 months away Trudeau doesn't need that kind of publicity.

On top of that, the Rafale would have been an extreme long shot anyways; buying the Rafale means scrapping all existing munitions, pods and support hardware in favour of their (more expensive) French equivalents.

And trying to integrate existing weapons and pods onto the Rafale means extensive development, certification, and testing requirements that would be fraught with risk and costs.
 
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keesje
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Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Canada - Future Fighter Capability Project

Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:26 pm

ThePointblank wrote:
Ozair wrote:
keesje wrote:
The French are escalating the topic, lets see what happens. How are the government relations these days?

That is highly unlikely Keesje, Trudeau won’t be able to change the NORAD specific requirements of the tender, especially as the tender documents have already been released to the respective bidders. It would create an instant protest point and with an election less than 12 months away Trudeau doesn't need that kind of publicity.

On top of that, the Rafale would have been an extreme long shot anyways; buying the Rafale means scrapping all existing munitions, pods and support hardware in favour of their (more expensive) French equivalents.

And trying to integrate existing weapons and pods onto the Rafale means extensive development, certification, and testing requirements that would be fraught with risk and costs.


Things are moving. Agreements, cooperation, self evident follow ups, all seems to be up for discussion / change lately. Specially in this field.
https://globalnews.ca/video/4490794/trump-slams-canada-on-nafta
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Ozair
Posts: 3117
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: Canada - Future Fighter Capability Project

Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:52 pm

keesje wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
Ozair wrote:
That is highly unlikely Keesje, Trudeau won’t be able to change the NORAD specific requirements of the tender, especially as the tender documents have already been released to the respective bidders. It would create an instant protest point and with an election less than 12 months away Trudeau doesn't need that kind of publicity.

On top of that, the Rafale would have been an extreme long shot anyways; buying the Rafale means scrapping all existing munitions, pods and support hardware in favour of their (more expensive) French equivalents.

And trying to integrate existing weapons and pods onto the Rafale means extensive development, certification, and testing requirements that would be fraught with risk and costs.


Things are moving. Agreements, cooperation, self evident follow ups, all seems to be up for discussion / change lately. Specially in this field.
https://globalnews.ca/video/4490794/trump-slams-canada-on-nafta

Keesje your link is almost two months old and doesn't have any relevance to the current situation or the fighter procurement.
 
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keesje
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Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Canada - Future Fighter Capability Project

Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:19 pm

Ozair wrote:
keesje wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
On top of that, the Rafale would have been an extreme long shot anyways; buying the Rafale means scrapping all existing munitions, pods and support hardware in favour of their (more expensive) French equivalents.

And trying to integrate existing weapons and pods onto the Rafale means extensive development, certification, and testing requirements that would be fraught with risk and costs.


Things are moving. Agreements, cooperation, self evident follow ups, all seems to be up for discussion / change lately. Specially in this field.
https://globalnews.ca/video/4490794/trump-slams-canada-on-nafta

Keesje your link is almost two months old and doesn't have any relevance to the current situation or the fighter procurement.



- The previous SuperHorner deal killed because of it.
The Canadian government’s December announcement did not come as a surprise, partly because of the news leaks earlier in the week, but also because of a rupture in relations between Canada and Boeing earlier in 2017 after the U.S. aerospace giant launched an unfair trade claim against Bombardier Aerospace of Montreal.
https://ipolitics.ca/2018/03/04/canada-gave-u-s-just-hours-notice-not-buy-super-hornets/

- The relation is what it is.
https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/11/01/trade-wars-canada-not-ready-forgive-trumps-insulting/1648045002/
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Ozair
Posts: 3117
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: Canada - Future Fighter Capability Project

Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:04 am

keesje wrote:
- The previous SuperHorner deal killed because of it.
The Canadian government’s December announcement did not come as a surprise, partly because of the news leaks earlier in the week, but also because of a rupture in relations between Canada and Boeing earlier in 2017 after the U.S. aerospace giant launched an unfair trade claim against Bombardier Aerospace of Montreal.
https://ipolitics.ca/2018/03/04/canada-gave-u-s-just-hours-notice-not-buy-super-hornets/

And yet Boeing is one of the Vendors selected and admitted for the bid. Five, now almost certainly four, who will bid clearly means relations are not that bad that they are excluded up front. Three of the vendors have significant US content in their jets and as already stated up the thread Canada continues to pay its dues to the F-35 Industrial program.

keesje wrote:

Keesje, seen from the RCAF/NORAD perspective the relationship is fine. Seen from the industry perspective, where Canadian companies contribute heavily to the US economy, it is fine.

Step away from the bluster of media reporting and you will see that things are humming along as they always have and will continue to, despite two political leaders with heads bigger than their boots having their egos dented.
 
ThePointblank
Posts: 3063
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:39 pm

Re: Canada - Future Fighter Capability Project

Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:03 am

keesje wrote:
Ozair wrote:
keesje wrote:

Things are moving. Agreements, cooperation, self evident follow ups, all seems to be up for discussion / change lately. Specially in this field.
https://globalnews.ca/video/4490794/trump-slams-canada-on-nafta

Keesje your link is almost two months old and doesn't have any relevance to the current situation or the fighter procurement.



- The previous SuperHorner deal killed because of it.
The Canadian government’s December announcement did not come as a surprise, partly because of the news leaks earlier in the week, but also because of a rupture in relations between Canada and Boeing earlier in 2017 after the U.S. aerospace giant launched an unfair trade claim against Bombardier Aerospace of Montreal.
https://ipolitics.ca/2018/03/04/canada-gave-u-s-just-hours-notice-not-buy-super-hornets/

- The relation is what it is.
https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/11/01/trade-wars-canada-not-ready-forgive-trumps-insulting/1648045002/

The previous Super Hornet deal got canned because of the optics of buying from a company that was directly involved in harming the Canadian government's investment in domestic industry was terrible, and every military official told the government that they had no need for the Super Hornet, could not supply the personnel to operate the type, could not afford to operate the type, and didn't want the type.

They only bought the Australian Hornet's to save face; the government created a fake capability gap to originally justify the purchase of the Super Hornet, so they need to do something to fix the problem they created for themselves; hence the purchase of the Australian fleet of Hornets to save face at taxpayers’ expense regarding the fictitious gap, while the reference to ‘economic harm’ by Boeing was a puerile attempt to deflect the issue from a case of government manipulation of the procurement process to one of economic indignation against Boeing.

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