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Slug71
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Re: India looks to start new fighter competition

Tue May 29, 2018 5:06 am

"HAL ready to supply 40 more Sukhoi Su 30-MKI fighters to IAF"

http://zeenews.india.com/india/hal-read ... 0.html/amp
 
Ozair
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Re: India looks to start new fighter competition

Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:34 pm

No surprise that all six manufacturers have responded to the RFI. Seems to be moving at a reasonable pace compared to other fighter jet competitions going on right now.

Six global companies respond to India's RFI for 110 fighter jets

India’s quest for procuring 110 fighter aircraft for its air force is progressing with six global aviation majors having responded to the Request for Information for the program.

The six firms which are competing for the IAF contract worth billions of dollars are Boeing’s F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Lockheed Martin’s F-16 Fighting Falcon, Dassault Aviation’s Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, Saab’s Gripen and Russian United Aircraft Corporation’s MiG-35.

India’s quest for procuring 110 fighter aircraft for its air force is progressing with six global aviation majors having responded to the Request for Information for the program.

The six firms which are competing for the IAF contract worth billions of dollars are Boeing’s F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Lockheed Martin’s F-16 Fighting Falcon, Dassault Aviation’s Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, Saab’s Gripen and Russian United Aircraft Corporation’s MiG-35.

“All six firms have responded "said IAF government sources. Friday was the last day for responding to the RFI.

The aircraft makers which responded to the RFI would have mentioned the operational and technical parameters of their military platforms. They have also indicated the fly-away price of the aircraft. The IAF will now draft its technical requirements for the tenders that can be issued within the next three to six months. The competition to give India’s new fighter jet will start after the global players respond to these tenders. As per current plans, Indian private sector manufacturers are expected to tie up with the winning global player to manufacture these planes in India.

The six firms had competed in an earlier attempt to provide 126 fighter aircraft to the IAF, known as the Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) program. The MMRCA was scrapped after Prime Minister Narendra Modi in April 2015 had announced that India would instead procure 36 Rafale jets from France in a government to government deal.

Later, the defence ministry had another plan of procuring 114 single engine fighter jets with foreign collaboration at an estimated cost of Rs 1.15 lakh crore. This plan was also scrapped earlier this year. In April, the defence ministry issued a RFI to procure 110 fighter jets. This project includes both single and twin engine fighter aircraft. Two of the competitors in this contest are single engine fighter- the F-16 and the Gripen, while the remaining four are twin-engined.

According to the RFI, the procurement of the 110 aircraft should have 15 per cent aircraft in fly away condition and the remaining 85 per cent to be made in India by a Strategic Partner. Through the RFI, the ministry has invited global aviation manufacturers to participate in the project and offer Transfer of Technology for the indigenous manufacture of the aircraft in India.

...

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 887437.cms
 
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moo
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Re: India looks to start new fighter competition

Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:08 am

Ozair wrote:
No surprise that all six manufacturers have responded to the RFI. Seems to be moving at a reasonable pace compared to other fighter jet competitions going on right now.

Six global companies respond to India's RFI for 110 fighter jets

India’s quest for procuring 110 fighter aircraft for its air force is progressing with six global aviation majors having responded to the Request for Information for the program.

The six firms which are competing for the IAF contract worth billions of dollars are Boeing’s F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Lockheed Martin’s F-16 Fighting Falcon, Dassault Aviation’s Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, Saab’s Gripen and Russian United Aircraft Corporation’s MiG-35.

India’s quest for procuring 110 fighter aircraft for its air force is progressing with six global aviation majors having responded to the Request for Information for the program.

The six firms which are competing for the IAF contract worth billions of dollars are Boeing’s F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Lockheed Martin’s F-16 Fighting Falcon, Dassault Aviation’s Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, Saab’s Gripen and Russian United Aircraft Corporation’s MiG-35.

“All six firms have responded "said IAF government sources. Friday was the last day for responding to the RFI.

The aircraft makers which responded to the RFI would have mentioned the operational and technical parameters of their military platforms. They have also indicated the fly-away price of the aircraft. The IAF will now draft its technical requirements for the tenders that can be issued within the next three to six months. The competition to give India’s new fighter jet will start after the global players respond to these tenders. As per current plans, Indian private sector manufacturers are expected to tie up with the winning global player to manufacture these planes in India.

The six firms had competed in an earlier attempt to provide 126 fighter aircraft to the IAF, known as the Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) program. The MMRCA was scrapped after Prime Minister Narendra Modi in April 2015 had announced that India would instead procure 36 Rafale jets from France in a government to government deal.

Later, the defence ministry had another plan of procuring 114 single engine fighter jets with foreign collaboration at an estimated cost of Rs 1.15 lakh crore. This plan was also scrapped earlier this year. In April, the defence ministry issued a RFI to procure 110 fighter jets. This project includes both single and twin engine fighter aircraft. Two of the competitors in this contest are single engine fighter- the F-16 and the Gripen, while the remaining four are twin-engined.

According to the RFI, the procurement of the 110 aircraft should have 15 per cent aircraft in fly away condition and the remaining 85 per cent to be made in India by a Strategic Partner. Through the RFI, the ministry has invited global aviation manufacturers to participate in the project and offer Transfer of Technology for the indigenous manufacture of the aircraft in India.

...

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 887437.cms


Why oh why do companies keep on responding to the Indian government?! This debacle has been going on for a decade now, what makes them think that this will actually result in any firm orders being delivered?!

This is like watching a bunch of people deliberately slamming a door on their nads, while insisting it's all going to be worth it....
 
Ozair
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Re: India looks to start new fighter competition

Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:22 pm

Looks like India will try and fast track the selection by not conducting flight trials of any of the candidates but of course as with any large military acquisition from India politics will likely play the deciding factor.

To Save Time Govt May Bypass Field Trials in MMRCA 2.0

The Indian Air Force (IAF) is working on formulating a set of QRs (qualitative requirements) against which it is likely to benchmark the bids submitted by six major aircraft manufacturers for supply of 110 fighter jets, instead of going through the tortuous process of field trials and evaluation, as was done in the previous such competition, more popularly known as the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender, which underwent a long process for eight years.

The latest competition, announced in April, was open to both single and twin engine combat jets like last time. The deadline to submit the bids was 6 July. All the six competitors–American firms Boeing and Lockheed Martin, Russian Aircraft Corporation, Dassault of France, Swedish manufacturer Saab and European consortium, Eurofighter GmbH–had also participated in the earlier tender for supply of 126 fighters which was eventually withdrawn before India decided to buy 36 Rafale jets from the French under a G-to-G (government to government) deal signed in September 2016.

Having tested the six aircraft in contention during the extensive field trials in the earlier competition, the IAF more or less knows the capabilities that each of the aircraft bring to the table. The Request for Information (RFI), put out in April had a detailed questionnaire for all competitors, seeking details of upgrades that the aircraft fielded for the latest tender would have undergone in the intervening years since the fields trials under MMRCA took place. The aircraft are: four twin-engine fighters–the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Block III, Eurofighter Typhoon, MiG-35 and Rafale and two single-engine jets– F-16 Block 70 and Gripen E.

The IAF’s acquisition branch is now scrutinising all the six bids, running into thousands of pages. The exercise is likely to take at least three-four months before all the six documents are placed in a common matrix and then evaluated against the set of QRs that are being prepared separately. The next step, according to informed sources, will be to shortlist two or three aircraft that meet the air force requirement. “Another round of field trials is not necessary given that we already know the capability of each of the aircraft. Since our fighter squadron strength is now in a precarious position, we need to close this deal as fast as possible,” explained a defence official familiar with the process.

Once the shortlist is ready, the IAF will take the matter to the Ministry of Defence (MoD) and the Prime Minister’s Office (PMO) and seek directions on the next steps. The government will have to decide quickly on how to make the final selection.
Top decision makers in the government have pointed out that none of India’s fighter jet acquisitions in the past have come through a competitive bidding. The only time it was tried was in the MMRCA tender. Finally though the process had to be scrapped and the Rafales bought through a G-to-G deal because of differences in calculating the cost of manufacturing. So, a repeat of that process in MMRCA 2.0 looks unlikely. Although there is merit in this approach, the final decision will depend on how the government wants to use this huge purchase order to its advantage and what the strategic environment is when the time to make the choice comes which, by all indications, will be after the next general elections at the earliest.

http://bharatshakti.in/to-save-time-gov ... mmrca-2-0/
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: India looks to start new fighter competition

Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:04 am

No competition! My! My!

With the Rafale Scam breaking in a big way in India and General Elections due in less than a year, dont expect the Govt to commit political suicide with another defense deal.

All about the #RafaleScam on Twitter


The 64 crore Bofors Scam had bought down Rajiv Gandhi's Govt in 1989. The 130000 crore Rafale Scam is way ahead in terms of scale! Even members of the Ruling Party have come forward to call the Rafale deal a scam:

Bofors Pales into Insignificance Before Rafale 'Scam', Allege Yaswant Sinha, Arun Shourie

The Rafale deal is a case of "monumental criminal misconduct" by the NDA government and the scam involving it is much bigger than the Bofors scandal, former Union ministers Yashwant Sinha and Arun Shourie alleged on Wednesday, demanding a time-bound probe into the contract by national auditor CAG.

Sinha and Shourie, addressing a press conference along with lawyer-activist Prashant Bhushan, raised a number of questions over the Rs 58,000 crore deal for procurement of 36 Rafale fighter jets from France.

The trio, known as strong critics of the NDA government, also accused Prime Minister Narendra Modi of single-handedly changing the parameters of the deal and that there was gross violation of mandatory procedures in finalising the contract.


The entire deal was a "textbook case of criminal misconduct, of misuse of public office and of enriching parties at the expense of the national interest and national security", they alleged, adding there was an "effort" by the government to "conceal" facts.

The Congress has been accusing massive irregularities in the Rafale deal, alleging that the government was procuring each aircraft at a cost of over Rs 1,670 crore as against Rs 526 crore finalised by the UPA government for the procurement of 126 Rafale jets. The deal negotiated by the UPA could not be inked.

The trio also rejected government's contention that the prices of the aircraft have gone up due to India-specific add-ons and weapons systems, citing a joint statement by India and France during Prime Minister Modi's visit to Paris in 2015.

They said the joint statement mentioned that the aircraft and the associated systems and weapons would be delivered to India on the same configuration as had been tested and approved by Indian Air Force for the deal negotiated for procurement of 126 jets under the UPA government.




In this context, it is highly unlikely that any Govt will dare to go ahead with a major defense purchase to reward another crony (Adani-Gripen?) a year before the election.
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Revelation
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Re: India looks to start new fighter competition

Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:56 am

Look what popped up on my Twitter:

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2018/09 ... -deal.html

Seems the battle is quite pitched.
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texl1649
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Re: India looks to start new fighter competition

Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:25 pm

Lockheed seems pretty aggressive dubbing their Tata production bid “F-21” for what seems to be an F-16V line.

https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2019/ ... e-f21.html
 
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Devilfish
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Re: India looks to start new fighter competition

Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:56 pm

texl1649 wrote:
Lockheed seems pretty aggressive dubbing their Tata production bid “F-21” for what seems to be an F-16V line.

Quite apt really, considering the F-21 served in an "aggressor" role before..... :biggrin: .....



https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... hi-455954/

Quote:
Lockheed Martin has redesignated the F-16V Block 70 as the F-21 in its offering for India's fighter requirement.

But that name is not the only thing to have appeared before: the F-21 designation is not new either. The Kfir – an Israeli development of the Dassault Mirage III with a GE Aviation J79 engine – was operated in the late 1980s and early 1990s by the US Navy and Marine Corps as an aggressor aircraft, when it was designated the F-21.
:devil:


Remains to be seen if MMRCA 2.0 wouldn't be a replay of the previous tender. :spin:
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unrave
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Re: India looks to start new fighter competition

Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:22 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
India-Pakistan and India-China wars in future in just a myth.

This comment hasn't aged well.
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dtw2hyd
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Re: India looks to start new fighter competition

Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:00 pm

Conflicts staged for the political benefit are not considered wars.
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bikerthai
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Re: India looks to start new fighter competition

Wed Feb 27, 2019 4:37 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Conflicts staged for the political benefit are not considered wars.


All wars are political. Even religious wars are politically motivated.

bt
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Dutchy
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Re: India looks to start new fighter competition

Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:11 am

unrave wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
India-Pakistan and India-China wars in future in just a myth.

This comment hasn't aged well.


All out war will probably not happen, these small battles will probably will go on for some time, until there will be a solution for Kashmir. There is no other choice then not to engage in an all-out war with nuclear weapons involved.
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unrave
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Re: India looks to start new fighter competition

Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:22 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
Conflicts staged for the political benefit are not considered wars.

I am a poor ESL student, so English semantics is not my strongest suit, but according to the Thesaurus published by the OED, 'war' and 'conflict' are synonyms.
17April2019: RIP Jet Airways
 
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bikerthai
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Re: India looks to start new fighter competition

Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:17 pm

unrave wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Conflicts staged for the political benefit are not considered wars.

I am a poor ESL student, so English semantics is not my strongest suit, but according to the Thesaurus published by the OED, 'war' and 'conflict' are synonyms.


In a narrower sense military war is typically conducted my nation states, or in the older days, tribes. Conflict can be conducted by any two or more parties. War has additional non-military usages like "War on Drugs, War on Cancer" which are "conflicts" only in a metaphorical manner.

bt
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Re: India looks to start new fighter competition

Thu Feb 28, 2019 6:47 pm

Might this give new urgency to the tender process?.....

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... sh-456148/


Image
https://www.flightglobal.com/assets/get ... emid=76249


It seems the Viper's stare is not as 'mesmerizing' there as elsewhere...so would this stand a better chance..... :hypnotized: .....

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ho-455995/
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unrave
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Re: India looks to start new fighter competition

Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:42 am

In light of the recent events, we can safely conclude that the F-21 is no longer in consideration
17April2019: RIP Jet Airways
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: India looks to start new fighter competition

Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:40 pm

Looks like MIC spin cycle started after the facepalm by vintage hardware.

How can NYTimes editors allow such crap, even if the author is biased?

Questions observers raised were about India stand-off strike capability because India refuses to release its own assessment of the initial strike led to this skirmish. I am curious to know if $500K Spice 2000s are worth compared to $30K JDAM/GBUs.

The aerial clash, the first by the South Asian rivals in nearly five decades, was a rare test for the Indian military — and it left observers a bit dumbfounded. While the challenges faced by the India’s armed forces are no secret, its loss of a plane last week to a country whose military is about half the size and receives a quarter of the funding was still telling.


https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/03/worl ... china.html
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william
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Re: India looks to start new fighter competition

Mon Mar 04, 2019 3:26 pm

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 968978.cms

India had stated for years they were looking at MIG fighters because the capability was close to western fighters but way cheaper. Actually, India has been stating that since the 90s.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: India looks to start new fighter competition

Mon Mar 04, 2019 4:09 pm

If drop-and-forget smart bomb technology success rate is questionable, India should acquire deep strike stealth fighters/bombers. Tomahawks even at $1Million a piece are not always precise. I am guessing Bhahmos success rate will be in the same ballpark.

India lacks the ability to recover downed pilots on their own. Apaches may fix this issue.

Recent, T-50 cancellation seems to be a dumb move on India's part.
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P1aneMad
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Re: India looks to start new fighter competition

Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:05 pm

How could Apaches recover downed pilots? You need CSAR helicopters for that and the willingness to go behind enemy lines.

T-50 cancellation was the smartest decision many in years. The Russians themselves all but admitted that they will only construct only a few dozens of them with less than a handful of deliveries each year.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: India looks to start new fighter competition

Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:39 pm

So, wait 20 more years for the perfect CRH.
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Spacepope
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Re: India looks to start new fighter competition

Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:54 pm

P1aneMad wrote:
How could Apaches recover downed pilots? You need CSAR helicopters for that and the willingness to go behind enemy lines.

T-50 cancellation was the smartest decision many in years. The Russians themselves all but admitted that they will only construct only a few dozens of them with less than a handful of deliveries each year.


In Iraq, they strapped people to the outside of the Apaches to recover them. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/ ... n.military
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VSMUT
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Re: India looks to start new fighter competition

Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:44 pm

Spacepope wrote:
In Iraq, they strapped people to the outside of the Apaches to recover them.


That's barely a comparable situation. In Iraq they were fighting insurgents. India and Pakistan are near peers, they would have to get through extensive air defences and troops.


P1aneMad wrote:
The Russians themselves all but admitted that they will only construct only a few dozens of them with less than a handful of deliveries each year.


Only a few dozen initially and the intermediate version with less advanced engines and avionics was canned. In other words, they will go directly to the final variant on a less ambitious timescale.

Why does so much always go missing in the translation from Russian to English?
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: India looks to start new fighter competition

Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:41 am

I doubt India is completely ruling out F-21 at this stage, but they may milk based on recent events. It appears a heavily upgraded Mig-21 and a barely maintained early generation F-16 are not that different. Could it be a 2-seat F-16 trainer? The major disadvantage of Mig-21 is flight profile management, so entirely depends on a skilled pilot.
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kelval
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Re: India looks to start new fighter competition

Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:38 pm

Not sure India is really interested in the F-16.
If they build an assembly line in India, this is basically the death of HAL Tejas.
 
Ozair
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Re: India looks to start new fighter competition

Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:06 pm

kelval wrote:
Not sure India is really interested in the F-16.

The F-16..F-21.. is probably an outside chance but it likely makes up ground based on acquisition and operational cost. It will almost certainly be the cheapest of the credible options to select and operate but India proved with MMRCA though that it wasn’t all about cost so it will depend on how the selection criteria is weighted between cost, capability, interoperability, domestic industry and political considerations.

kelval wrote:
If they build an assembly line in India, this is basically the death of HAL Tejas.

India’s demands for more fighter jets are so high that Tejas is assured, even at the low rate HAL can manufacture them. India needs jets and having two in country production lines would allow the legacy aircraft to be replaced more rapidly.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: India looks to start new fighter competition

Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:45 am

Could the SH fly off India's new carrier? If yes, then you can go with a common frame for both requirements. Boeing would offer a better local manufacturing option as they will be partner with HAL and has a pipeline to the commercial sector which only Airbus can match.

bt
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Ozair
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Re: India looks to start new fighter competition

Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:25 pm

The Indian fighter competition apparently continues, albeit slowly and with no defined time frame to work to. Given the continued slow deliveries of the Tejas and an ever aging fighter fleet surly at some point this has to either speed up or be given up.

India still considering a large fighter deal

The Indian defence ministry’s response to a parliamentary question suggests that a plan to obtain 110 advanced fighters is inching through New Delhi’s bureaucracy.

The response followed a question posted by a parliamentarian regarding India’s ambitions for “public private partnerships” to develop indigenous manufacturing capabilities.

“The evaluation of responses to the request for information (RFI) and finalisation of SQR (Services Qualitative Requirements) have commenced,” said defence ministry official Mohan Naidu Kinjarapu in a written response.

The SQR could set the stage for a request for proposals, though the timeline is unclear.

...

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... 11-459470/
 
Ozair
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Re: India looks to start new fighter competition

Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:11 am

I expect as things continue to drag with the new fighter acquisition we will see India continue to top up Su-30MKI orders. Another 18 in this prospective order and I would say at least a couple more orders this size in subsequent years is likely.

Indian Air Force seeking to acquire 18 more Su-30MKI fighters from Russia

The Indian Air Force (IAF) is seeking to acquire an additional 18 Sukhoi Su-30MKI multirole fighter aircraft from Russia, according to Vladimir Drozhzhov, the deputy director of Russia's Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation (FSMTC).

Briefing reporters in Moscow on 8 July, Drozhzhov said that the FSMTC is "processing" a request from New Delhi to procure 18 more of these fighters for the IAF in kit form for assembly in India.

The platforms will supplement the 13 squadrons totalling 272 Su-30MKIs that the IAF intends to operate by 2020-21, thus taking to 14 the number of squadrons with this fighter type.

Drozhzhov further stated that Russia has completed delivery of all components and sub-assemblies to India's state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) to licence-build 222 Su-30MKIs agreed upon under various previous contracts from 2000 onwards.

Currently, the IAF operates about 250 Su-30MKIs, of which more than 200 have been licence-built.

...

https://www.janes.com/article/89763/ind ... rom-russia
 
Ozair
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Re: India looks to start new fighter competition

Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:30 pm

More at the link. While the F-21/16 offers probably great overall economics, and may very well be the cheapest overall to acquire and operate compared to the capability it offers, I still doubt that India will select it for the sole reason that Pakistan operates the F-16.

If India chooses F-21, it will plug into 'world's largest fighter plane ecosystem': Lockheed Martin

US aerospace giant Lockheed Martin on Tuesday said its offer of F-21 fighter jets is a very robust 'Make in India' proposition and if the country goes for the deal it will be "plugging into the world's largest fighter plane ecosystem".

Vivek Lall, the vice president of Strategy and Business Development for Lockheed Martin, said the initial demand from India is for 114 aircraft, but expressed confidence that over time, it will continue to grow.

"Participation in the global production is what the F-21 has to offer," he said.

...

https://www.livemint.com/news/india/if- ... 64044.html

Image
 
Ozair
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Re: India looks to start new fighter competition

Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:01 am

With these deficiencies in the defence budget it is doubtful that the Indians will be able to move the fighter procurement forward. Must be hard to buy new equipment when the funding doesn’t extend to paying for the equipment you already agreed to acquire!

Budget 2019: Defence allocation disappoints military

There is disappointment in the military and industry over the defence allocation in the Union Budget. There are also questions on the overall military modernisation and the big-ticket deals lined up for conclusion this year as there are no resources left for new procurements.

“The capital expenditure allocated for the Navy and the Indian Air Force (IAF) does not meet their committed liabilities this year. Services had taken up the matter with the Defence Ministry after the interim Budget,” a defence source said on condition of anonymity.

...

The IAF which has signed major deals in the last few years including the 36 Rafale jets, S-400 air defence systems and is beginning to induct platforms like CH-47F Chinook heavy lift and AH-64 Apache attack helicopters has committed liabilities of ₹47,400 crore. In contrast, its capital allocation is ₹39,300 crore. Similarly, the Navy’s committed liabilities stand at ₹25,461 crore while the capital allocation is ₹22,227 crore.

The Navy has major deals lined up and they are in advanced stages. A deal for 24 MH-60R Multi-Role Helicopters from the U.S. valued at $2.6 billion is expected to be concluded by year-end. A proposal for 10 more P-8I long range maritime patrol aircraft estimated to cost over $3 billion is waiting for clearance from the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC).

This means the Navy and Air Force have no money left for new deals, and may default on earlier payments as well. The Army with its large size has a huge revenue burden and a significant part of it goes for salaries. For the coming year, the Army has a total shortfall of ₹12,000 crore of which ₹6,300 crore is in the capital head and around ₹5500 crore in non-salary expenditure.

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 313288.ece
 
Ozair
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Re: India looks to start new fighter competition

Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:43 am

Further to the article published in early July it looks like India is going to top up with more SU-30MKI as well as potentially some MiG-29s.

India Expected To Sign for More MiG-29s and Su-30MKIs in October

New Delhi is expected to commit to a series of new major arms deals with Moscow at the next session of the Indo-Russian intergovernmental commission on military industrial cooperation, to be held in October. These would include a contract on 18 additional kits for the Sukhoi Su-30MKI heavyweight multirole fighter for assembly at HAL’s Nasik plant. This would bring the grand total of such aircraft procured since 1999 to 240. Additionally, the Indian Air Force would receive “over 20” used MiG-29 lightweight interceptors from the Russian Air and Space Force (VKS) for their subsequent conversion into MiG-29UPG multirole aircraft.

...

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... is-october

The additional Su-30 is a good decision and would likely slide right into the current fleet. The miG-29s I'm not so sure about. This article from the Drive, https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/2 ... r-shortage indicates the MiG-29s were built but never assembled so the frames are sitting around and the remainder of the parts have been stored for nearly 30 years.

“These fighters were built in the 1980s but never assembled and flown,” an unnamed Indian Air Force officer reportedly told the Indian daily. “Our team visited Russia last month and found the MiG-29 skeletons to be in good condition.”

The individual offered no further details on the state of the aircraft parts, which have been in storage now for at least around 30 years. Beyond the officer saying India had been offered “a good price,” there is no word on how much the Russians want for the unassembled planes or to finish building them to a modern standard.


In additional to dealing with almost certainly time expired parts they will also have to deal with upgrading the aircraft to a modern standard as I am sure India is not interested in 1980s configured MiG-29s. Hopefully not the same type of good deals India has been offered and accepted in the past...
 
angad84
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Re: India looks to start new fighter competition

Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:58 am

The IAF is very happy with their upgraded MiG-29s. As with all things IAF, they look externally similar to bog-standard upgraded jets, but have a lot of clever doodads under the skin that are unique to the IAF (see also: Mirage, Jaguar, MiG-21, MiG-27...) I spent a few days with one of the units operating these jets, and apart from some tongue-in-cheek comments about ruining the sleek lines of the original, and having to give up their A2A specialisation for multi-role, they are seriously impressed. The UPGs are essentially a completely new beast, leaving the old -29Bs in the dust as far as reliability and capability are concerned. And having seen the precision with which they were pounding the range, even with dumb bombs, I would not argue.

Apropos, the mothballed frames will not enter service as they are — they will get the same SLEP/SLAP treatment that the existing fleet received, and be inducted as MiG-29UPGs from the get-go. That was the whole point of the inspection.
 
Ozair
Topic Author
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Re: India looks to start new fighter competition

Sat Aug 10, 2019 12:04 pm

angad84 wrote:
The IAF is very happy with their upgraded MiG-29s. As with all things IAF, they look externally similar to bog-standard upgraded jets, but have a lot of clever doodads under the skin that are unique to the IAF (see also: Mirage, Jaguar, MiG-21, MiG-27...) I spent a few days with one of the units operating these jets, and apart from some tongue-in-cheek comments about ruining the sleek lines of the original, and having to give up their A2A specialisation for multi-role, they are seriously impressed. The UPGs are essentially a completely new beast, leaving the old -29Bs in the dust as far as reliability and capability are concerned. And having seen the precision with which they were pounding the range, even with dumb bombs, I would not argue.

Apropos, the mothballed frames will not enter service as they are — they will get the same SLEP/SLAP treatment that the existing fleet received, and be inducted as MiG-29UPGs from the get-go. That was the whole point of the inspection.

I'm not doubting the ability or capability of Indian MiG-29s. I am questioning the logic of buying aircraft that have never even been assembled, it certainly carries enough risk that I hope the price is very very cheap.
 
angad84
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Re: India looks to start new fighter competition

Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:24 pm

Ozair wrote:
I'm not doubting the ability or capability of Indian MiG-29s. I am questioning the logic of buying aircraft that have never even been assembled, it certainly carries enough risk that I hope the price is very very cheap.

Hence the inspection, and the SLEP/SLAP. UPGs are nearly all-new frames. very little carries over, save some of the largest/strongest structural members
 
Ozair
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Re: India looks to start new fighter competition

Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:10 am

Will be interesting to see if this impacts the timeframe for a new fighter replacement program. While it doesn’t appear that the Jags will go out of service any sooner it does continue to reduce their capability and likely operational availability. Even with such a fleet size and the spares India has been able to acquire it may become difficult to sustain this fleet for the timeframe originally expected.

India cancels Jaguar upgrade over Honeywell’s $2.4B price tag

The Indian Air Force has dropped its plan to upgrade 80 Jaguar ground-attack fighters with new engines over the cost provided by American firm Honeywell.

The service had planned to equip its Jaguar fighters with 280 new Honeywell-built F125IN turbofan engines, but the cost of some $2.4 billion was too expensive, a senior Air Force official said. The new engines were to be integrated on 80 Jaguars by Indian state-owned company Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, which wanted $3.12 million per installation, an equally expensive ask, he added.

The Air Force in 2016 selected the F125IN on a single-vendor basis, and there were discussions to procure 280 of the turbofans (including 40 spare engines). The service wants to replace the Adour engine, which currently powers the Jaguar aircraft, with a higher-thrust engine to improve mission performance, particularly in medium- and high-level sorties, according to another Air Force official.

To keeping the existing Jaguar fleet operational, the Air Force last year directed Hindustan Aeronautics to procure airframes and spares from used, overseas Jaguars.

A company executive confirmed that the firm began such a search, and procured airframes, engines and multiple types of frequently used spare parts from France; two airframes, eight engines and spare parts from Oman; and two twin-seater aircraft and spare parts from the United Kingdom.

...

https://www.defensenews.com/global/asia ... price-tag/
 
Ozair
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Re: India looks to start new fighter competition

Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:00 pm

Some PR fluff from LM but the competition continues to roll on in the background. I believe the biggest hurdle to the F-21 ever serving with the IAF remains use of the F-16 by Pakistan.

F-21, along with Tejas and Rafale, will be game-changer for IAF: Lockheed

US defence giant Lockheed Martin believes its F-21 fighter, offered exclusively for the Indian Air Force, would be a game-changer along with the indigenous Tejas and Rafale fighters. Lockheed Martin has offered the F-21 fighter, unveiled at Aero India in 2019, in consideration for an Indian Air Force contract for 114 aircraft, which is estimated to be valued at $15 billion.

"We believe the F-21 is the best solution to meet the Indian Air Force's capability needs, provide Make-in-India industrial opportunities, and accelerate India-US cooperation on advanced technologies," Lockheed Martin executive Vivek Lall told PTI in an interview on Wednesday. The F-21 is derived from the prolific F-16 fighter.

Lall is vice president (strategy and business development) at Lockheed Martin.

"No other company has the experience in next-generation technologies, including but not limited to fighter aircraft, Lockheed Martin can offer to India. We designed, developed and produced the world's first operational stealth aircraft, the F-117, and the world's only two current operational 5th generation fighters: the F-22 and F-35," Lall asserted.

Lall said the F-21 delivers an advanced single-engine, multi-role fighter at the most optimal life-cycle cost for the Indian Air Force, with the longest service life of any competitor till 12,000 flight hours.

“The F-21 goes further, faster and stays longer than the competition,” he said, asserting that the F-21 will meet all of India's performance, capability and advanced technology requirements and provide unmatched opportunities for Indian companies of all sizes and suppliers throughout India.

"The F-21, in concert with the Rafale and Tejas, will provide an operational gap-filler and will be a game-changer for the Indian Air Force, Indian industry and India-US strategic ties," Lall said.

...

https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2020/ ... kheed.html
 
Ozair
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Re: India looks to start new fighter competition

Thu May 21, 2020 10:29 pm

Well another year another restructure of the Indian fighter competition. This time apparently all aircraft are now going to be assembled in India and be approx US$17 billion in total acquisition cost. I don’t see how they will be able to get either all the aircraft under the cost base given local production nor how they will acquire all the technology for that local manufacture at that cost level. The original MMRCA deal was looking at US$20 billion for the local manufacture of 108 Rafales with probably less tech transfer and that price has likely only increased, especially as the aircraft themselves have increased in capability and therefore price.

Indian Air Force restructures $17 billion fighter jet program

The Indian Air Force is overhauling its plan to induct 114 medium-weight multirole fighters, with a senior service official saying the aircraft will be built in India with significant foreign technology transfer and no foreign procurement.

The effort will cost about $17 billion under the Make in India economic policy.

The Air Force official said the project is very much alive, but that the “final nitty-gritties have yet to be worked out, and that will take time because it will require manufacturing capability building in the country.”

...

https://www.defensenews.com/global/asia ... t-program/

Of the possible entrants, Eurofighter, Rafale, SH, F-16 and Gripen, all are now likely to be in production for the next five years. Eurofighter based on the impending German order, Rafale on continued French orders, SH due to the production line working on Blk III refits, F-16 based on recent orders and the Gripen because the development delay has now worked in their favour. All are likely to be capable of local production with a private Indian company as per the proposed structure. What the article does mention, and I often forget, is that RAC and Sukhoi are also both in the mix and responded to the Indian RFI released in 2018.

Just to understand what India are asking for here, the RFI apparently specified the following,
the RFI included the requirement for transfer of technology, including the transfer of design, development, manufacturing and repair expertise. It also included the requirement for the unilateral capability to integrate weapons, systems and sensors. The capability to upgrade the aircraft and a provision on exporting the aircraft is also part of the program. India is also seeking transfer of technology for stealth technology, active electronically scanned array radars, avionics, electronic warfare systems and engines.

I expect getting all of those may be more than some of the manufacturers will be willing to part with, if they can even legally export some of those technologies. A lot is expected from US$17 billion but this remains the biggest fighter acquisition now on the market and a big carrot for the OEMS and respective Governments.
 
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Spiderguy252
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Re: India looks to start new fighter competition

Fri May 22, 2020 7:52 am

Nothing will happen.

The IAF has always been more talk, less action. What became of those mothballed MiG-29s that were supposed to be a slam-dunk induction into the fleet?
Vahroone
 
art
Posts: 3314
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Re: India looks to start new fighter competition

Thu May 28, 2020 11:15 am

Spiderguy252 wrote:
Nothing will happen.


That is par for the course. Or a project fails to stick to schedule, a revised schedule is announced, that fails to be met, a re-revised schedule is announced, that fails to be met,,, pretty much ad infinitum.

For projects to fail so consistently with no acknowledgement of failure by any involved nor any attempt to change the system or personnel responsible seems to be the Indian way of (not) procuring military materiel. Invariably everything is portrayed as being hunky dory, or about to be. The Tejas project is a prime example. MMRCA competition was, too.

What will happen with the new fighter competition? I expect that when (assuming the project is not abandoned) a candidate is selected, unrealistic demands for ToT or unrealistic demands for the OEM to be responsible for the performance of the Indian constructors will result in it coming to nothing.

I don't know, wouldn't it be easier just to buy more Rafales soon instead of thrashing around pursuing another inconclusive fighter competition? IAF would actually receive delivery of fighters and India could amuse itself with dreams of loads of Tejas Mk2 reaching the IAF in a few years and loads of AMCA coming in the 2030's. Everyone happy, no?
 
maint123
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Re: India looks to start new fighter competition

Fri May 29, 2020 2:33 am

Order placed for 83 tejas mk1 at a total cost of 37000 cr , approximately 5 b usd.
So each plane coming in at 60 m usd. Pretty expensive for a home designed and home assembled plane.
Major Imported components are, engine ge 404 at 6 m usd each , 7 missiles at total of 5 m , radar at 3 m usd , ejection seat 0.3 m .
The body is 40% composite .
So is the high price justified with HAL taking a 6 % profit ?
Any comparable part wise price breakup study of a fighter jet available ?
 
angad84
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Re: India looks to start new fighter competition

Fri May 29, 2020 4:06 am

maint123 wrote:
Order placed for 83 tejas mk1 at a total cost of 37000 cr , approximately 5 b usd.
So each plane coming in at 60 m usd. Pretty expensive for a home designed and home assembled plane.
Major Imported components are, engine ge 404 at 6 m usd each , 7 missiles at total of 5 m , radar at 3 m usd , ejection seat 0.3 m .
The body is 40% composite .
So is the high price justified with HAL taking a 6 % profit ?
Any comparable part wise price breakup study of a fighter jet available ?

Don't confuse programme cost with unit cost. the headline figure includes cost of development and testing, the jets themselves, all associated ground equipment, training equipment, initial set of spares/consumables and so on.
 
maint123
Posts: 394
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Re: India looks to start new fighter competition

Fri May 29, 2020 7:02 am

angad84 wrote:
maint123 wrote:
Order placed for 83 tejas mk1 at a total cost of 37000 cr , approximately 5 b usd.
So each plane coming in at 60 m usd. Pretty expensive for a home designed and home assembled plane.
Major Imported components are, engine ge 404 at 6 m usd each , 7 missiles at total of 5 m , radar at 3 m usd , ejection seat 0.3 m .
The body is 40% composite .
So is the high price justified with HAL taking a 6 % profit ?
Any comparable part wise price breakup study of a fighter jet available ?

Don't confuse programme cost with unit cost. the headline figure includes cost of development and testing, the jets themselves, all associated ground equipment, training equipment, initial set of spares/consumables and so on.

Not confusing at all. The IAF is placing a order of 83 tejas mk1A for 37000 cr from HAL.As a customer the iaf will receive the jets, ground equipment and limited spares. As it's a indigenous product, most spares will probably be with HAL with a service contract. You are thinking of a imported product for which lots of spares have to be procured. Only extras will be the armaments like missiles. The cost includes a 6 % profit for HAL. R&D is done by DRDO and ADA. A separate budget for that.
My intent is to see why a indigenous product is as costly as buying a single engine fighter jet from a western country.
One reason could be that a lot of hal work has been subcontracted to firms like L&t , etc , who take their profit cut.
 
art
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Re: India looks to start new fighter competition

Fri May 29, 2020 10:30 am

maint123 wrote:
angad84 wrote:
Don't confuse programme cost with unit cost. the headline figure includes cost of development and testing, the jets themselves, all associated ground equipment, training equipment, initial set of spares/consumables and so on.

Not confusing at all. The IAF is placing a order of 83 tejas mk1A for 37000 cr from HAL.As a customer the iaf will receive the jets, ground equipment and limited spares. As it's a indigenous product, most spares will probably be with HAL with a service contract. You are thinking of a imported product for which lots of spares have to be procured. Only extras will be the armaments like missiles. The cost includes a 6 % profit for HAL. R&D is done by DRDO and ADA. A separate budget for that.
My intent is to see why a indigenous product is as costly as buying a single engine fighter jet from a western country.
One reason could be that a lot of hal work has been subcontracted to firms like L&t , etc , who take their profit cut.


I know this thread is for discussion about a new ighter competition but the validity of any such competition is based to some extent on what India could provide to meet IAF needs and at what cost.

Are you saying that the unit cost for HAL to knock out a Mk1A is about $60 million minus cost of ground equipment and limited spares in the contract, perhaps about $55 million flyaway cost? I'm not sure but I seem to recall that Mk1 cost was between $30 and $40 million, so $55 million is quite a big increase, particularly when the contract is for 80+ frames, rather than 40 (and that 40 consisted in aircraft of 3 different.designs - IOCx16, FOCx16 and trainerx8).

About private enterprise involvevement taking a profit, if it cost HAL $100 to make a widget and they sold it for $106 to make 6% profit, would that be better than private enterprise making an identical widget for $70, due to being more efficienct, and selling it for $106? I ask because I guess that a well-run private enterprise could probably build aircraft 20%-40% more cheaply than HAL, making indigenous aircraft production far cheaper than foreign-built aircraft. But GOI seems very keen to stick close to its state-owned monopoly HAL
 
maint123
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Re: India looks to start new fighter competition

Fri May 29, 2020 1:15 pm

art wrote:
maint123 wrote:
angad84 wrote:
Don't confuse programme cost with unit cost. the headline figure includes cost of development and testing, the jets themselves, all associated ground equipment, training equipment, initial set of spares/consumables and so on.

Not confusing at all. The IAF is placing a order of 83 tejas mk1A for 37000 cr from HAL.As a customer the iaf will receive the jets, ground equipment and limited spares. As it's a indigenous product, most spares will probably be with HAL with a service contract. You are thinking of a imported product for which lots of spares have to be procured. Only extras will be the armaments like missiles. The cost includes a 6 % profit for HAL. R&D is done by DRDO and ADA. A separate budget for that.
My intent is to see why a indigenous product is as costly as buying a single engine fighter jet from a western country.
One reason could be that a lot of hal work has been subcontracted to firms like L&t , etc , who take their profit cut.


I know this thread is for discussion about a new ighter competition but the validity of any such competition is based to some extent on what India could provide to meet IAF needs and at what cost.

Are you saying that the unit cost for HAL to knock out a Mk1A is about $60 million minus cost of ground equipment and limited spares in the contract, perhaps about $55 million flyaway cost? I'm not sure but I seem to recall that Mk1 cost was between $30 and $40 million, so $55 million is quite a big increase, particularly when the contract is for 80+ frames, rather than 40 (and that 40 consisted in aircraft of 3 different.designs - IOCx16, FOCx16 and trainerx8).

About private enterprise involvevement taking a profit, if it cost HAL $100 to make a widget and they sold it for $106 to make 6% profit, would that be better than private enterprise making an identical widget for $70, due to being more efficienct, and selling it for $106? I ask because I guess that a well-run private enterprise could probably build aircraft 20%-40% more cheaply than HAL, making indigenous aircraft production far cheaper than foreign-built aircraft. But GOI seems very keen to stick close to its state-owned monopoly HAL

You haven't really helped. That's what I am trying to understand that with all major imported components costing around 16 m usd , why is the homegrown tejas so expensive. And india's labor costs are pretty low.
A expensive homegrown jet defeats the aim of arming the airforce with a medium technology indigenous product , which can be mass produced and is sort of a quantity has it's own quality.
For offensive purposes we have rafale and sukhois.
 
SuperiorPilotMe
Posts: 194
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Re: India looks to start new fighter competition

Fri May 29, 2020 3:54 pm

maint123 wrote:
So each plane coming in at 60 m usd. Pretty expensive for a home designed and home assembled plane.


Not really, comparable to a Blk 60 F-16.
Stop the stupids!- Claus Kellerman
 
angad84
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Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:04 pm

Re: India looks to start new fighter competition

Fri May 29, 2020 6:48 pm

maint123 wrote:
angad84 wrote:
maint123 wrote:
Order placed for 83 tejas mk1 at a total cost of 37000 cr , approximately 5 b usd.
So each plane coming in at 60 m usd. Pretty expensive for a home designed and home assembled plane.
Major Imported components are, engine ge 404 at 6 m usd each , 7 missiles at total of 5 m , radar at 3 m usd , ejection seat 0.3 m .
The body is 40% composite .
So is the high price justified with HAL taking a 6 % profit ?
Any comparable part wise price breakup study of a fighter jet available ?

Don't confuse programme cost with unit cost. the headline figure includes cost of development and testing, the jets themselves, all associated ground equipment, training equipment, initial set of spares/consumables and so on.

Not confusing at all. The IAF is placing a order of 83 tejas mk1A for 37000 cr from HAL.As a customer the iaf will receive the jets, ground equipment and limited spares. As it's a indigenous product, most spares will probably be with HAL with a service contract. You are thinking of a imported product for which lots of spares have to be procured. Only extras will be the armaments like missiles. The cost includes a 6 % profit for HAL. R&D is done by DRDO and ADA. A separate budget for that.
My intent is to see why a indigenous product is as costly as buying a single engine fighter jet from a western country.
One reason could be that a lot of hal work has been subcontracted to firms like L&t , etc , who take their profit cut.

Again, no, that is not how the cost is split.
Also, the Mk.1A is a HAL programme, not DRDO/ADA. You do realise HAL has a full-fledged R&D wing?
 
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bikerthai
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Re: India looks to start new fighter competition

Fri May 29, 2020 8:49 pm

How many iterations of price haggling did this contract go through?

Our experience with out India subcontractors is that initially, they low ball the estimate. After one contract they found that it was more difficult then they realized, then they highball the next. After a couple of iterations of negotiations, with comparison with real world data, we end up with a price both sides is agreeable.

After several contracts, the suppliers understand the playing field and usually comes up with a reasonable quote the first try, saving us time from all the haggling.

Of course when there's a major redesign with new unknown variables, it starts all over again.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
angad84
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Re: India looks to start new fighter competition

Sat May 30, 2020 9:43 am

bikerthai wrote:
How many iterations of price haggling did this contract go through?

Our experience with out India subcontractors is that initially, they low ball the estimate. After one contract they found that it was more difficult then they realized, then they highball the next. After a couple of iterations of negotiations, with comparison with real world data, we end up with a price both sides is agreeable.

After several contracts, the suppliers understand the playing field and usually comes up with a reasonable quote the first try, saving us time from all the haggling.

Of course when there's a major redesign with new unknown variables, it starts all over again.

bt

This one actually started hilariously high.
Not going to get into why it began high or what got it down to the present $4.9B, but it took a long time to get here. My understanding re: the delay in actually signing the contract is that HAL is not comfortable with how low it has now gone. Again, cannot get into specifics but it has to do with how it was split up.
 
Ozair
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Re: India looks to start new fighter competition

Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:59 am

The absurdity of CAATSA continues and will likely impact any future attempt by the US to sell fighter aircraft to India. I can somewhat understand the intent of these sanctions but in India’s case they already have both of these airframes in service in significant numbers. Threatening sanctions to proposals to increase order quantities on already in service aircraft ordered decades ago is just stupid…

Not that I think the US would actually go through with this anyway, India seems too valuable a future ally to content with China.

US highlights CAATSA risk in Indian fighter procurement

The United States government has urged India to reconsider its planned acquisition of Russian fighter aircraft, a move that risks potential sanctions under the Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA).

In comments to Janes on 26 June an official from the US Department of State did not make specific reference to the Indian Air Force (IAF) procurement but said that India has not been safeguarded from possible penalties under the law.

The official said, “Without commentating on private diplomatic conversations, I can confirm that we urge all of our allies and partners to forgo transactions with Russia that risk triggering sanctions under the Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA).”

...

The comments come after Janes reported on 19 June that the IAF was looking to fast-track the procurement – valued at about USD1.4 billion – of 21 used Mikoyan MiG-29 and 12 new Sukhoi Su-30MKI combat aircraft to boost its air combat capabilities.

...

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... rocurement

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