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flyingturtle
Posts: 6191
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:06 pm

FlapOperator wrote:
Nomadd wrote:
The big problem is the same as their airliner development and production problems. Figuring out how such bonehead issues happen in the first place. And that seems to be beyond them.


Interestingly, if you talk with people inside the organization, they can give you the hair, teeth and eyeballs of the problem.


If there was just a way to solve that problem...

General George Patton (of WW2 fame) had his "Household Cavalry", which roamed around with jeeps to gather intelligence - logistics problems, or what happens on the front - while fully bypassing the organizational hierarchies that filter out the bad news.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6th_Cavalry_Regiment
 
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Nomadd
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Thu Aug 26, 2021 7:00 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
Nomadd wrote:
It's one numbnuts emailing a Machinists union rep. I wouldn't take it too seriously.


The "numbnut" belongs to the ULA top ranks. And no matter the addressee, it's telling regarding the mindset of the sender.

Kind of an inappropriate slur anyhow once the name is known.
 
ThePointblank
Posts: 3860
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:39 pm

Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Thu Aug 26, 2021 8:22 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
FlapOperator wrote:
Nomadd wrote:
The big problem is the same as their airliner development and production problems. Figuring out how such bonehead issues happen in the first place. And that seems to be beyond them.


Interestingly, if you talk with people inside the organization, they can give you the hair, teeth and eyeballs of the problem.


If there was just a way to solve that problem...

General George Patton (of WW2 fame) had his "Household Cavalry", which roamed around with jeeps to gather intelligence - logistics problems, or what happens on the front - while fully bypassing the organizational hierarchies that filter out the bad news.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6th_Cavalry_Regiment

Also part of the Toyota Way, as Genchi Genbutsu; Go and see for yourself to thoroughly understand the situation.
 
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SeJoWa
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Sat Aug 28, 2021 5:00 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
General George Patton (of WW2 fame) had his "Household Cavalry", which roamed around with jeeps to gather intelligence - logistics problems, or what happens on the front - while fully bypassing the organizational hierarchies that filter out the bad news.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6th_Cavalry_Regiment


Excellent reference, thank you! I didn't know anything about that. But the fact itself doesn't astonish me, moreso in Patton's army - responsible leadership demands engagement and pursuit. Edit: I recently finished Guderian's somewhat hackneyed but in places riveting autobiography, and he expressly mentioned the relentless 'American' (read Patton) advance once the breakout from the Norman beachheads in depth had been achieved.
 
ThePointblank
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Wed Oct 06, 2021 5:27 pm

It appears NASA has no confidence in Starliner's ability to launch with crew any time before 2023, and they've reassigned some crew that were scheduled to fly in Starliner to fly with SpaceX's Dragon:

https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa ... w-missions

NASA has reassigned astronauts Nicole Mann and Josh Cassada to the agency’s SpaceX Crew-5 mission to the International Space Station as part of the Commercial Crew Program.

Mann and Cassada will serve as spacecraft commander and pilot, respectively, for the Crew-5 mission. Additional crew members will be announced later.

Crew-5 is expected to launch no earlier than fall 2022 on a Falcon 9 rocket from Launch Complex 39A at NASA’s Kennedy Space Center in Florida. The duo and their crewmates will join an expedition crew aboard station for a long duration stay to conduct science activities for the benefit of humanity and exploration.

“Nicole and Josh have done a tremendous job pioneering the training and path forward for astronauts to fly on Boeing’s Starliner spacecraft. They have gained experience that they will take forward as they train to fly in SpaceX’s Crew Dragon spacecraft and serve aboard the International Space Station,” said Kathryn Lueders, associate administrator of the Space Operations Mission Directorate at NASA Headquarters in Washington. “The NASA team is fortunate to have two commercial crew partners and will continue to work with Boeing and SpaceX to prepare NASA astronauts and our international partners to fly to and from the International Space Station on U.S. spacecraft.”

Mann and Cassada previously were assigned to missions on NASA’s Boeing Crew Flight Test and NASA’s Boeing Starliner-1 mission, respectively. NASA decided it was important to make these reassignments to allow Boeing time to complete the development of Starliner while continuing plans for astronauts to gain spaceflight experience for the future needs of the agency’s missions.


It's a clear vote of lack of confidence in Starliner's ability to launch before 2023, and before the 5th Crewed Dragon mission to the ISS.
 
744SPX
Posts: 618
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:07 pm

And the hits just keep on coming...

Starliner is starting to look more and more like a dumpster fire.
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:21 pm

The good news is that NASA is recognizing the issue and actually rescheduling astronauts to Crew Dragon.

I have to say I have wondered what it would be like to be on the Starliner astronaut roster, training so hard, and then get all these setbacks. It's good they're being rescheduled and get their astronaut wings and time in space.
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:47 pm

Maybe ULA should detonate a Starliner, and their chief execs should smoke weed on a live stream... :old:
 
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Francoflier
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Thu Oct 07, 2021 3:13 am

flyingturtle wrote:
Maybe ULA should detonate a Starliner, and their chief execs should smoke weed on a live stream... :old:


Boeing, you mean?

Speaking of which, it may be time we had a Boeing Starliner specific thread rather than squatting the ULA thread.
Poor ULA is just another innocent victim in this debacle... although between Boeing and Blue Origin, you could argue that they are not very good at selecting their business partners.

Regardless, ULA has performed quite well recently with an Atlas V placing Landsat 9 into orbit just a few days ago and, more interestingly, an identical Atlas rocket will soon be launching the fascinating LUCY mission towards the Trojan asteroids:

https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/lucy/overview/index

October 16th. :crossfingers:
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Thu Oct 07, 2021 4:32 am

Crew Dragon has proven itself to be worthy many times now, I wonder if keeping up the "two contractors" spiel is of any value at this point. Just build more Crew Dragons, and if ULA wants to launch some of them, that's probably possible too.
 
FGITD
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Thu Oct 07, 2021 2:47 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
Crew Dragon has proven itself to be worthy many times now, I wonder if keeping up the "two contractors" spiel is of any value at this point. Just build more Crew Dragons, and if ULA wants to launch some of them, that's probably possible too.


I never really bought that argument in the first place. I get the basic concept, don’t want to be left without the means to access space again…but always struck me as being more so for the sake of keeping jobs and money with Boeing.

The US has never had multiple spacecraft types. Mercury finished before Gemini, which finished before Apollo, which of course finished before the Space Shuttle.

And now Dragon is likely the safest spacecraft ever built…and we need a backup? A backup that is years late, over budget, and can’t even launch. Meanwhile Dragon is up to 14 astronauts flown, and numerous missions.

Regardless of all that, reassigning crews is a big deal. It’s a total vote of no confidence.
 
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Tugger
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Thu Oct 07, 2021 3:16 pm

FGITD wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
Crew Dragon has proven itself to be worthy many times now, I wonder if keeping up the "two contractors" spiel is of any value at this point. Just build more Crew Dragons, and if ULA wants to launch some of them, that's probably possible too.


I never really bought that argument in the first place. I get the basic concept, don’t want to be left without the means to access space again…but always struck me as being more so for the sake of keeping jobs and money with Boeing.

The US has never had multiple spacecraft types. Mercury finished before Gemini, which finished before Apollo, which of course finished before the Space Shuttle.

And now Dragon is likely the safest spacecraft ever built…and we need a backup? A backup that is years late, over budget, and can’t even launch. Meanwhile Dragon is up to 14 astronauts flown, and numerous missions.

Regardless of all that, reassigning crews is a big deal. It’s a total vote of no confidence.

Dragon may be the established name now but think back to 2011 when the Commercial Crew Program was first done. I was just happy they in fact did award two contracts instead of just going with Boeing (Blue Origin and Sierra Nevada didn't have any actual space experience and still don't). Boeing was the big name and the trusted, experienced partner contractor. Until the StarLiner debacle.

And yes, I think ULA really is the wrong thread now for the Starliner failure issues.

The good thing for ULA, it's product IS IN FACT VERY GOOD, so much so that, as I understand it, they were able to repurpose the Atlas V that was going launch StarLiner for the Lucy mission. (Guess the humid environment isn't the same issue for Atlas that it is for StarLiner.)

Tugg
 
FGITD
Posts: 1808
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Thu Oct 07, 2021 4:12 pm

Tugger wrote:
FGITD wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
Crew Dragon has proven itself to be worthy many times now, I wonder if keeping up the "two contractors" spiel is of any value at this point. Just build more Crew Dragons, and if ULA wants to launch some of them, that's probably possible too.


I never really bought that argument in the first place. I get the basic concept, don’t want to be left without the means to access space again…but always struck me as being more so for the sake of keeping jobs and money with Boeing.

The US has never had multiple spacecraft types. Mercury finished before Gemini, which finished before Apollo, which of course finished before the Space Shuttle.

And now Dragon is likely the safest spacecraft ever built…and we need a backup? A backup that is years late, over budget, and can’t even launch. Meanwhile Dragon is up to 14 astronauts flown, and numerous missions.

Regardless of all that, reassigning crews is a big deal. It’s a total vote of no confidence.

Dragon may be the established name now but think back to 2011 when the Commercial Crew Program was first done. I was just happy they in fact did award two contracts instead of just going with Boeing (Blue Origin and Sierra Nevada didn't have any actual space experience and still don't). Boeing was the big name and the trusted, experienced partner contractor. Until the StarLiner debacle.

And yes, I think ULA really is the wrong thread now for the Starliner failure issues.

The good thing for ULA, it's product IS IN FACT VERY GOOD, so much so that, as I understand it, they were able to repurpose the Atlas V that was going launch StarLiner for the Lucy mission. (Guess the humid environment isn't the same issue for Atlas that it is for StarLiner.)

Tugg


Very good point, I’m caught up looking at this through 2021 vision.

Agreed on ULA, to their credit they are a very good space group. Maybe enjoyed the gravy train of being able to charge whatever they want a little too much by being the only provider…but they’re already adapting to the future. I think they’ll continue to come good as time goes by, and prove a good opponent to SpaceX.
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:46 pm

Francoflier wrote:
flyingturtle wrote:
Maybe ULA should detonate a Starliner, and their chief execs should smoke weed on a live stream... :old:


Boeing, you mean?


Owww. Saahrrry!

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