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flyingturtle
Posts: 6590
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:06 pm

FlapOperator wrote:
Nomadd wrote:
The big problem is the same as their airliner development and production problems. Figuring out how such bonehead issues happen in the first place. And that seems to be beyond them.


Interestingly, if you talk with people inside the organization, they can give you the hair, teeth and eyeballs of the problem.


If there was just a way to solve that problem...

General George Patton (of WW2 fame) had his "Household Cavalry", which roamed around with jeeps to gather intelligence - logistics problems, or what happens on the front - while fully bypassing the organizational hierarchies that filter out the bad news.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6th_Cavalry_Regiment
 
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Nomadd
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Thu Aug 26, 2021 7:00 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
Nomadd wrote:
It's one numbnuts emailing a Machinists union rep. I wouldn't take it too seriously.


The "numbnut" belongs to the ULA top ranks. And no matter the addressee, it's telling regarding the mindset of the sender.

Kind of an inappropriate slur anyhow once the name is known.
 
ThePointblank
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Thu Aug 26, 2021 8:22 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
FlapOperator wrote:
Nomadd wrote:
The big problem is the same as their airliner development and production problems. Figuring out how such bonehead issues happen in the first place. And that seems to be beyond them.


Interestingly, if you talk with people inside the organization, they can give you the hair, teeth and eyeballs of the problem.


If there was just a way to solve that problem...

General George Patton (of WW2 fame) had his "Household Cavalry", which roamed around with jeeps to gather intelligence - logistics problems, or what happens on the front - while fully bypassing the organizational hierarchies that filter out the bad news.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6th_Cavalry_Regiment

Also part of the Toyota Way, as Genchi Genbutsu; Go and see for yourself to thoroughly understand the situation.
 
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SeJoWa
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Sat Aug 28, 2021 5:00 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
General George Patton (of WW2 fame) had his "Household Cavalry", which roamed around with jeeps to gather intelligence - logistics problems, or what happens on the front - while fully bypassing the organizational hierarchies that filter out the bad news.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6th_Cavalry_Regiment


Excellent reference, thank you! I didn't know anything about that. But the fact itself doesn't astonish me, moreso in Patton's army - responsible leadership demands engagement and pursuit. Edit: I recently finished Guderian's somewhat hackneyed but in places riveting autobiography, and he expressly mentioned the relentless 'American' (read Patton) advance once the breakout from the Norman beachheads in depth had been achieved.
 
ThePointblank
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Wed Oct 06, 2021 5:27 pm

It appears NASA has no confidence in Starliner's ability to launch with crew any time before 2023, and they've reassigned some crew that were scheduled to fly in Starliner to fly with SpaceX's Dragon:

https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa ... w-missions

NASA has reassigned astronauts Nicole Mann and Josh Cassada to the agency’s SpaceX Crew-5 mission to the International Space Station as part of the Commercial Crew Program.

Mann and Cassada will serve as spacecraft commander and pilot, respectively, for the Crew-5 mission. Additional crew members will be announced later.

Crew-5 is expected to launch no earlier than fall 2022 on a Falcon 9 rocket from Launch Complex 39A at NASA’s Kennedy Space Center in Florida. The duo and their crewmates will join an expedition crew aboard station for a long duration stay to conduct science activities for the benefit of humanity and exploration.

“Nicole and Josh have done a tremendous job pioneering the training and path forward for astronauts to fly on Boeing’s Starliner spacecraft. They have gained experience that they will take forward as they train to fly in SpaceX’s Crew Dragon spacecraft and serve aboard the International Space Station,” said Kathryn Lueders, associate administrator of the Space Operations Mission Directorate at NASA Headquarters in Washington. “The NASA team is fortunate to have two commercial crew partners and will continue to work with Boeing and SpaceX to prepare NASA astronauts and our international partners to fly to and from the International Space Station on U.S. spacecraft.”

Mann and Cassada previously were assigned to missions on NASA’s Boeing Crew Flight Test and NASA’s Boeing Starliner-1 mission, respectively. NASA decided it was important to make these reassignments to allow Boeing time to complete the development of Starliner while continuing plans for astronauts to gain spaceflight experience for the future needs of the agency’s missions.


It's a clear vote of lack of confidence in Starliner's ability to launch before 2023, and before the 5th Crewed Dragon mission to the ISS.
 
744SPX
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:07 pm

And the hits just keep on coming...

Starliner is starting to look more and more like a dumpster fire.
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:21 pm

The good news is that NASA is recognizing the issue and actually rescheduling astronauts to Crew Dragon.

I have to say I have wondered what it would be like to be on the Starliner astronaut roster, training so hard, and then get all these setbacks. It's good they're being rescheduled and get their astronaut wings and time in space.
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:47 pm

Maybe ULA should detonate a Starliner, and their chief execs should smoke weed on a live stream... :old:
 
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Francoflier
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Thu Oct 07, 2021 3:13 am

flyingturtle wrote:
Maybe ULA should detonate a Starliner, and their chief execs should smoke weed on a live stream... :old:


Boeing, you mean?

Speaking of which, it may be time we had a Boeing Starliner specific thread rather than squatting the ULA thread.
Poor ULA is just another innocent victim in this debacle... although between Boeing and Blue Origin, you could argue that they are not very good at selecting their business partners.

Regardless, ULA has performed quite well recently with an Atlas V placing Landsat 9 into orbit just a few days ago and, more interestingly, an identical Atlas rocket will soon be launching the fascinating LUCY mission towards the Trojan asteroids:

https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/lucy/overview/index

October 16th. :crossfingers:
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Thu Oct 07, 2021 4:32 am

Crew Dragon has proven itself to be worthy many times now, I wonder if keeping up the "two contractors" spiel is of any value at this point. Just build more Crew Dragons, and if ULA wants to launch some of them, that's probably possible too.
 
FGITD
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Thu Oct 07, 2021 2:47 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
Crew Dragon has proven itself to be worthy many times now, I wonder if keeping up the "two contractors" spiel is of any value at this point. Just build more Crew Dragons, and if ULA wants to launch some of them, that's probably possible too.


I never really bought that argument in the first place. I get the basic concept, don’t want to be left without the means to access space again…but always struck me as being more so for the sake of keeping jobs and money with Boeing.

The US has never had multiple spacecraft types. Mercury finished before Gemini, which finished before Apollo, which of course finished before the Space Shuttle.

And now Dragon is likely the safest spacecraft ever built…and we need a backup? A backup that is years late, over budget, and can’t even launch. Meanwhile Dragon is up to 14 astronauts flown, and numerous missions.

Regardless of all that, reassigning crews is a big deal. It’s a total vote of no confidence.
 
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Tugger
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Thu Oct 07, 2021 3:16 pm

FGITD wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
Crew Dragon has proven itself to be worthy many times now, I wonder if keeping up the "two contractors" spiel is of any value at this point. Just build more Crew Dragons, and if ULA wants to launch some of them, that's probably possible too.


I never really bought that argument in the first place. I get the basic concept, don’t want to be left without the means to access space again…but always struck me as being more so for the sake of keeping jobs and money with Boeing.

The US has never had multiple spacecraft types. Mercury finished before Gemini, which finished before Apollo, which of course finished before the Space Shuttle.

And now Dragon is likely the safest spacecraft ever built…and we need a backup? A backup that is years late, over budget, and can’t even launch. Meanwhile Dragon is up to 14 astronauts flown, and numerous missions.

Regardless of all that, reassigning crews is a big deal. It’s a total vote of no confidence.

Dragon may be the established name now but think back to 2011 when the Commercial Crew Program was first done. I was just happy they in fact did award two contracts instead of just going with Boeing (Blue Origin and Sierra Nevada didn't have any actual space experience and still don't). Boeing was the big name and the trusted, experienced partner contractor. Until the StarLiner debacle.

And yes, I think ULA really is the wrong thread now for the Starliner failure issues.

The good thing for ULA, it's product IS IN FACT VERY GOOD, so much so that, as I understand it, they were able to repurpose the Atlas V that was going launch StarLiner for the Lucy mission. (Guess the humid environment isn't the same issue for Atlas that it is for StarLiner.)

Tugg
 
FGITD
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Thu Oct 07, 2021 4:12 pm

Tugger wrote:
FGITD wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
Crew Dragon has proven itself to be worthy many times now, I wonder if keeping up the "two contractors" spiel is of any value at this point. Just build more Crew Dragons, and if ULA wants to launch some of them, that's probably possible too.


I never really bought that argument in the first place. I get the basic concept, don’t want to be left without the means to access space again…but always struck me as being more so for the sake of keeping jobs and money with Boeing.

The US has never had multiple spacecraft types. Mercury finished before Gemini, which finished before Apollo, which of course finished before the Space Shuttle.

And now Dragon is likely the safest spacecraft ever built…and we need a backup? A backup that is years late, over budget, and can’t even launch. Meanwhile Dragon is up to 14 astronauts flown, and numerous missions.

Regardless of all that, reassigning crews is a big deal. It’s a total vote of no confidence.

Dragon may be the established name now but think back to 2011 when the Commercial Crew Program was first done. I was just happy they in fact did award two contracts instead of just going with Boeing (Blue Origin and Sierra Nevada didn't have any actual space experience and still don't). Boeing was the big name and the trusted, experienced partner contractor. Until the StarLiner debacle.

And yes, I think ULA really is the wrong thread now for the Starliner failure issues.

The good thing for ULA, it's product IS IN FACT VERY GOOD, so much so that, as I understand it, they were able to repurpose the Atlas V that was going launch StarLiner for the Lucy mission. (Guess the humid environment isn't the same issue for Atlas that it is for StarLiner.)

Tugg


Very good point, I’m caught up looking at this through 2021 vision.

Agreed on ULA, to their credit they are a very good space group. Maybe enjoyed the gravy train of being able to charge whatever they want a little too much by being the only provider…but they’re already adapting to the future. I think they’ll continue to come good as time goes by, and prove a good opponent to SpaceX.
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:46 pm

Francoflier wrote:
flyingturtle wrote:
Maybe ULA should detonate a Starliner, and their chief execs should smoke weed on a live stream... :old:


Boeing, you mean?


Owww. Saahrrry!
 
mxaxai
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Wed Apr 06, 2022 3:15 pm

Amazon buys 38 Vulcan launches from ULA launches for their 'Kuiper' broadband constellation, in addition to 18 Ariane 6 and 12 (+15 options) New Glenn launches from Blue Origin.
https://spacenews.com/amazon-signs-mult ... contracts/

That's a massive order for ULA given the relatively limited demand for the Vulcan previously. Half of the constellation needs to be in orbit by 2026 and the last launch must happen by 2029. Assuming launches start in 2023, that means ULA has to launch one rocket every 2 months, on average, just for Amazon.
 
744SPX
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Wed Apr 06, 2022 11:58 pm

mxaxai wrote:
Amazon buys 38 Vulcan launches from ULA launches for their 'Kuiper' broadband constellation, in addition to 18 Ariane 6 and 12 (+15 options) New Glenn launches from Blue Origin.
https://spacenews.com/amazon-signs-mult ... contracts/

That's a massive order for ULA given the relatively limited demand for the Vulcan previously. Half of the constellation needs to be in orbit by 2026 and the last launch must happen by 2029. Assuming launches start in 2023, that means ULA has to launch one rocket every 2 months, on average, just for Amazon.


And still no flight ready BE4's. Clearly timed to appease ULA after a ridiculous number of engine delays.
 
GDB
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Thu Apr 07, 2022 4:32 am

744SPX wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
Amazon buys 38 Vulcan launches from ULA launches for their 'Kuiper' broadband constellation, in addition to 18 Ariane 6 and 12 (+15 options) New Glenn launches from Blue Origin.
https://spacenews.com/amazon-signs-mult ... contracts/

That's a massive order for ULA given the relatively limited demand for the Vulcan previously. Half of the constellation needs to be in orbit by 2026 and the last launch must happen by 2029. Assuming launches start in 2023, that means ULA has to launch one rocket every 2 months, on average, just for Amazon.


And still no flight ready BE4's. Clearly timed to appease ULA after a ridiculous number of engine delays.


Yes, have they even given ULA a realistic timescale for BE-4 delivery, integration and testing? Otherwise it’s all very well announcing all those launches with as you say no actual useable engines.
 
mxaxai
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Thu Apr 07, 2022 8:08 am

I assume questions like this are one reason why Amazon booked launches with 3 different launch vehicles. There should be some clauses in the contract that allow them to cancel delayed Vulcan launches and buy more Ariane 6 launches (or vice versa).
 
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N328KF
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Thu Apr 07, 2022 7:27 pm

mxaxai wrote:
I assume questions like this are one reason why Amazon booked launches with 3 different launch vehicles. There should be some clauses in the contract that allow them to cancel delayed Vulcan launches and buy more Ariane 6 launches (or vice versa).


The New Glenn deal includes options.
 
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kitplane01
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Sun Apr 10, 2022 6:19 pm

mxaxai wrote:
Amazon buys 38 Vulcan launches from ULA launches for their 'Kuiper' broadband constellation, in addition to 18 Ariane 6 and 12 (+15 options) New Glenn launches from Blue Origin.
https://spacenews.com/amazon-signs-mult ... contracts/

That's a massive order for ULA given the relatively limited demand for the Vulcan previously. Half of the constellation needs to be in orbit by 2026 and the last launch must happen by 2029. Assuming launches start in 2023, that means ULA has to launch one rocket every 2 months, on average, just for Amazon.


Doesn't this show how much more awesome SpaceX is. "has to launch one rocket every 2 months" would be trivial for them.

I would be real curious how much more a ULA launch costs over a SpaceX launch.
 
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Nomadd
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Sun Apr 10, 2022 8:47 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
I would be real curious how much more a ULA launch costs over a SpaceX launch.

I think Tory said they'd be six solid boosters. That would make them $200 million missions.
SpaceX spends less on an entire mission than ULA does on two of those solids.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Sat Jul 30, 2022 5:13 am

First BE-4 engine is completed and ready for shipping. Second engine to follow shortly.

Image

https://twitter.com/torybruno/status/15 ... qD1Yw&s=19
 
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Francoflier
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Sat Jul 30, 2022 10:49 am

Well, they did say GRADATIM ferociter...

Better late than never. I hope this is the start of a successful and long-lasting engine family.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Sat Jul 30, 2022 12:34 pm

Francoflier wrote:
Well, they did say GRADATIM ferociter...

Better late than never. I hope this is the start of a successful and long-lasting engine family.


Blue has a more NASA-like approach, pace and progression. It gets unfavorably compared to SpaceX, but it's a tried and true method.

Tory Bruno has given a good analysis of the advantages and disadvantages of each approach, and points out that while there may be early gains to the rapid approach, there can also be losses if you have to do late-stage redesign. And if the overall goal is a high degree of safety, that's best achieved by establishing that culture early in the program. Which is NASA's philosophy as well.

In the end, the BE-4 and the Raptor will achieve orbit at around the same time frame.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Sat Sep 24, 2022 10:52 pm

ULA got off the Delta 4 Heavy launch of a National Reconnaissance Office payload today, from Vandenberg. No significant issues besides the usual minor problems.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=liFRHoKbSDA
 
GDB
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Sun Sep 25, 2022 12:05 am

Avatar2go wrote:
ULA got off the Delta 4 Heavy launch of a National Reconnaissance Office payload today, from Vandenberg. No significant issues besides the usual minor problems.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=liFRHoKbSDA


I saw, last West Coast Delta 4 Heavy launch.
 
BEG2IAH
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Sun Sep 25, 2022 3:25 am

It was nice to see close-up how that hydrogen burned off and charred the foam on boosters.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:47 am

BEG2IAH wrote:
It was nice to see close-up how that hydrogen burned off and charred the foam on boosters.


For just a moment, I thought something was wrong. Also noticed the insulation around the engine nozzles continued to be on fire well into the flight.
 
zanl188
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Sun Sep 25, 2022 1:59 pm

Avatar2go wrote:
BEG2IAH wrote:
It was nice to see close-up how that hydrogen burned off and charred the foam on boosters.


For just a moment, I thought something was wrong. Also noticed the insulation around the engine nozzles continued to be on fire well into the flight.


Before anyone asks…. The additional flame and charring during Delta 4 launches is characteristic for the launch vehicle.

https://youtu.be/351jWIWk5bA
 
Avatar2go
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Sun Sep 25, 2022 2:13 pm

zanl188 wrote:
Avatar2go wrote:
BEG2IAH wrote:
It was nice to see close-up how that hydrogen burned off and charred the foam on boosters.


For just a moment, I thought something was wrong. Also noticed the insulation around the engine nozzles continued to be on fire well into the flight.


Before anyone asks…. The additional flame and charring during Delta 4 launches is characteristic for the launch vehicle.

https://youtu.be/351jWIWk5bA


Yes, the insulation fires happened at the Artemis Green Run full duration test fire, as well.
 
BEG2IAH
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Mon Sep 26, 2022 5:06 am

Every time I watched Delta IV launch I would have my heart skip a few beats thinking it would just blow up in a huge ball of fire. Then I read about the hydrogen-rich environment and now I feel much better. :)
 
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Tugger
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Mon Sep 26, 2022 4:12 pm

As I have posted before, the D4H has been one of my favorites to watch. The flames, the burn-off, the nearly invisible triple pillar of trust as it launches. Sad it is coming to an end soon.

But congrats on another success ULA!

Tugg
 
Avatar2go
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Mon Oct 10, 2022 11:10 pm

ULA has announced the first Vulcan launch has been delayed to Q1 2023, at the request of the payload vendor Astrobiotics. But if not launched by then, Tory Bruno has said it will launch without payload, in order to meet the terms of their government contract.

The first launch-ready BE-4 engine is now delivered, with the second to follow in November.

https://news.yahoo.com/united-launch-al ... 07356.html
 
Avatar2go
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Sat Oct 29, 2022 7:09 pm

Tory Bruno has posted the BE-4 acceptance test of the FE-1 engine for Vulcan. It will now be delivered for installation. The FE-2 engine has already been delivered and partially installed.

https://twitter.com/torybruno/status/15 ... 5924321280
 
zanl188
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Sun Oct 30, 2022 11:43 am

Avatar2go wrote:
ULA has announced the first Vulcan launch has been delayed to Q1 2023, at the request of the payload vendor Astrobiotics. But if not launched by then, Tory Bruno has said it will launch without payload, in order to meet the terms of their government contract.

The first launch-ready BE-4 engine is now delivered, with the second to follow in November.

https://news.yahoo.com/united-launch-al ... 07356.html


So if no payload will Bruno attempt to out Musk Musk? What might he launch? A horse would be cruel…..
 
Avatar2go
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Sun Oct 30, 2022 12:46 pm

zanl188 wrote:

So if no payload will Bruno attempt to out Musk Musk? What might he launch? A horse would be cruel…..


No, no stupid publicity stunts that pollute the solar system with space junk, which doesn't even follow the intended trajectory. That's entirely a Musk brand. ULA would use a dummy payload that would be destroyed on re-entry in a responsible way, if no useful payload is available.
 
zanl188
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Sun Oct 30, 2022 3:53 pm

Avatar2go wrote:
zanl188 wrote:

So if no payload will Bruno attempt to out Musk Musk? What might he launch? A horse would be cruel…..


No, no stupid publicity stunts that pollute the solar system with space junk, which doesn't even follow the intended trajectory. That's entirely a Musk brand. ULA would use a dummy payload that would be destroyed on re-entry in a responsible way, if no useful payload is available.


Polluting solar system with space junk. That’s a laugh. We couldn’t find that junk again if we tried.
 
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Nomadd
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Sun Oct 30, 2022 4:04 pm

Avatar2go wrote:
zanl188 wrote:

So if no payload will Bruno attempt to out Musk Musk? What might he launch? A horse would be cruel…..


No, no stupid publicity stunts that pollute the solar system with space junk, which doesn't even follow the intended trajectory. That's entirely a Musk brand. ULA would use a dummy payload that would be destroyed on re-entry in a responsible way, if no useful payload is available.

Pretty moronic comment.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Sun Oct 30, 2022 4:06 pm

zanl188 wrote:
Avatar2go wrote:
zanl188 wrote:

Polluting solar system with space junk. That’s a laugh. We couldn’t find that junk again if we tried.


Point being that there is no need to launch useless crap into space, for the glorification of an individual, or a business. That's all that ever was.

I suspect ULA is more down to earth than that. Tory doesn't have the need to stroke his ego. He just needs to demonstrate the viability of Vulcan, with a successful launch.

That said, I hope the Mission One payload is ready to go and can be launched. That would be a great start to the program.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Sun Oct 30, 2022 4:41 pm

Out of interest, here is a paper which simulates the Tesla trajectory to discover it's ultimate disposition (odds of collision over next 15 million years):

Earth collision: 22%
Venus collision: 12%
Sun collision: 12%
Mars collision: 1%
Mercury collision: 1%
Ejection from solar system: << 1%
Remain in orbit around the Sun: 50%

The odds of collision with Earth are similar to other near earth objects (NEOs) with equivalent mass. Hence is now being tracked as a NEO.

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1802.04718
 
zanl188
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Sun Oct 30, 2022 5:23 pm

Avatar2go wrote:

The odds of collision with Earth are similar to other near earth objects (NEOs) with equivalent mass. Hence is now being tracked as a NEO.

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1802.04718


Maybe I missed it, however I see nothing here that suggests Musks Roadster is being tracked as a NEO, and it appears to be unlikely. Please elaborate.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Sun Oct 30, 2022 5:57 pm

zanl188 wrote:

Maybe I missed it, however I see nothing here that suggests Musks Roadster is being tracked as a NEO, and it appears to be unlikely. Please elaborate.


How else would it's location be known, or it's trajectory calculated. It's tracked by NASA as it periodically approaches Earth and Mars.

As of Monday, the roadster was about 234 million miles from Earth and about 200 million miles from Mars, passing through a no-man’s land of outer space, according to the tracking website whereisroadster.com, which uses NASA’s data to keep tabs on the car.


https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/08/tech/spa ... index.html
 
GDB
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Sun Oct 30, 2022 6:01 pm

Avatar2go wrote:
zanl188 wrote:

So if no payload will Bruno attempt to out Musk Musk? What might he launch? A horse would be cruel…..


No, no stupid publicity stunts that pollute the solar system with space junk, which doesn't even follow the intended trajectory. That's entirely a Musk brand. ULA would use a dummy payload that would be destroyed on re-entry in a responsible way, if no useful payload is available.


As you will see from other threads, notably the twitter one, I am no Musk can do no wrong fanboy, however that Tesla launch on Falcon Heavy merely replaced what would also be a lump of something for ballast, which presumably also would have achieved escape velocity.
More importantly, it had a tangible effect of exciting renewed interest in space, which frankly the ISS does not, unless a whole new spacecraft is now serving it, with the same eye on PR.
PR was/is as important for NASA, it's virtually in the job description of it's staffers, certainly the organization from it's formation.

Or as long term space exploration advocate and veteran of the US industrial space complex Robert Zubrin put it, 'Falcon Heavy was a shot heard around the world'.

A certain long term PR addict is about to launch from the UK, a rocket, well over the Atlantic on a 747.
That's something useful I guess, hardly new, I can remember when an L1011 did something identical.
But that's not what the average member of the public think of with Branson and space, they think of are his suborbital tourist flights he's been promising for 15 years, it took 14 to do one but none since.
Because unlike Musk, who had learned/taught himself a lot of the engineering, he just sticks to stunts and attaches his brand to others efforts.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Sun Oct 30, 2022 6:28 pm

GDB wrote:

As you will see from other threads, notably the twitter one, I am no Musk can do no wrong fanboy, however that Tesla launch on Falcon Heavy merely replaced what would also be a lump of something for ballast, which presumably also would have achieved escape velocity.
More importantly, it had a tangible effect of exciting renewed interest in space, which frankly the ISS does not, unless a whole new spacecraft is now serving it, with the same eye on PR.
PR was/is as important for NASA, it's virtually in the job description of it's staffers, certainly the organization from it's formation.

Or as long term space exploration advocate and veteran of the US industrial space complex Robert Zubrin put it, 'Falcon Heavy was a shot heard around the world'.

A certain long term PR addict is about to launch from the UK, a rocket, well over the Atlantic on a 747.
That's something useful I guess, hardly new, I can remember when an L1011 did something identical.
But that's not what the average member of the public think of with Branson and space, they think of are his suborbital tourist flights he's been promising for 15 years, it took 14 to do one but none since.
Because unlike Musk, who had learned/taught himself a lot of the engineering, he just sticks to stunts and attaches his brand to others efforts.


I made a post about ULA progress. The commenter answered with a snide remark about launching a horse into space. Launching either a vehicle or a horse into space, are both ridiculous notions, and I answered accordingly. All Musk did was create another piece of space junk or debris.

If it served some useful purpose before abandonment, so be it. There are upper stages disposed in space regularly. But this served no purpose, other than publicity. His intent was to send it to Mars, but the trajectory was off, so now it has an orbit that crosses that of both Earth and Mars.

If you guys see promotional value in it, that's fine. I personally don't. And that would be the only value. And I would not expect ULA to do anything similar. But we shall see. The responsible thing would be a destructible payload shot into a high offset elliptical orbit with a short reentry period. That demonstrates all aspects of the rocket's capability.
 
GDB
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Sun Oct 30, 2022 6:53 pm

Avatar2go wrote:
GDB wrote:

As you will see from other threads, notably the twitter one, I am no Musk can do no wrong fanboy, however that Tesla launch on Falcon Heavy merely replaced what would also be a lump of something for ballast, which presumably also would have achieved escape velocity.
More importantly, it had a tangible effect of exciting renewed interest in space, which frankly the ISS does not, unless a whole new spacecraft is now serving it, with the same eye on PR.
PR was/is as important for NASA, it's virtually in the job description of it's staffers, certainly the organization from it's formation.

Or as long term space exploration advocate and veteran of the US industrial space complex Robert Zubrin put it, 'Falcon Heavy was a shot heard around the world'.

A certain long term PR addict is about to launch from the UK, a rocket, well over the Atlantic on a 747.
That's something useful I guess, hardly new, I can remember when an L1011 did something identical.
But that's not what the average member of the public think of with Branson and space, they think of are his suborbital tourist flights he's been promising for 15 years, it took 14 to do one but none since.
Because unlike Musk, who had learned/taught himself a lot of the engineering, he just sticks to stunts and attaches his brand to others efforts.


I made a post about ULA progress. The commenter answered with a snide remark about launching a horse into space. Launching either a vehicle or a horse into space, are both ridiculous notions, and I answered accordingly. All Musk did was create another piece of space junk or debris.

If it served some useful purpose before abandonment, so be it. There are upper stages disposed in space regularly. But this served no purpose, other than publicity. His intent was to send it to Mars, but the trajectory was off, so now it has an orbit that crosses that of both Earth and Mars.

If you guys see promotional value in it, that's fine. I personally don't. And that would be the only value. And I would not expect ULA to do anything similar. But we shall see. The responsible thing would be a destructible payload shot into a high offset elliptical orbit with a short reentry period. That demonstrates all aspects of the rocket's capability.


Agreed ULA has an entirely different culture, it’s inevitable given it is an amalgamation of legacy US companies, arguably ULA now is as much a product of political as well as commercial considerations given who their main customer was when they formed.
It’s a good thing that they had the stones to adopt a new engine from a relative newcomer to the industry, just as well that Blue Origin does not choose to present or even model itself on Space X, given their first application beyond sub orbital is with a legacy launcher operation.
It’s a gusty move, they have paid a price in delays but if the engine performs as advertised the rewards will be worth it, including expanding their customer base and applications beyond what was expected when ULA was formed.

In fairness again to Musk (though god knows he makes it hard especially recently), I have seen numerous times, at launch events, unveiling’s, allowing to be interviewed by informed outsiders like Tim Dodd, him giving credit to NASA.
I think it is easy to link that with all the worst of the breathless fanboyism around him, which you could argue his style can encourage.
Silly to expect the CEO of ULA to do that, of course not, nor even Bezos.
Maybe it’s the media or the loss of knowledgeable specialists within it.

Looking forward to its flight, for both ULA and Blue Origin a significant moment, to amend a phrase, ‘Launches talk, BS walks’.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Sun Oct 30, 2022 7:47 pm

GDB wrote:

In fairness again to Musk (though god knows he makes it hard especially recently), I have seen numerous times, at launch events, unveiling’s, allowing to be interviewed by informed outsiders like Tim Dodd, him giving credit to NASA.
I think it is easy to link that with all the worst of the breathless fanboyism around him, which you could argue his style can encourage.


Agreed that you rarely hear Musk himself, or even SpaceX, be critical of NASA. What rankles folks at NASA a bit, is that his fans are critical, often on Twitter directly below his own tweets, openly ridiculing NASA. But he never reins them in at all. Given his personality, I'm sure he finds it amusing.

The downside is that some at NASA, because of this, see him as a cult of personality, in that he won't correct his followers, because then they might not be his followers. Or alternatively, that he agrees implicitly with the criticism, in which case they aren't that happy about working with him.

He could actually do himself a big favor with NASA, by stepping in on the worst of the negative commentary. But I suspect he makes the calculation that it ultimately works to his advantage, so he just stays mum.
 
zanl188
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Sun Oct 30, 2022 8:33 pm

Avatar2go wrote:

How else would it's location be known, or it's trajectory calculated. It's tracked by NASA as it periodically approaches Earth and Mars.

As of Monday, the roadster was about 234 million miles from Earth and about 200 million miles from Mars, passing through a no-man’s land of outer space, according to the tracking website whereisroadster.com, which uses NASA’s data to keep tabs on the car.


https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/08/tech/spa ... index.html


Please think again. NASA doesn’t track any spacecraft beyond LEO that is non-cooperative. Batteries on the roadster are long since dead.

Snide comment? It’s humor, perhaps poor humor, but humor nonetheless. Bruno will do something.

From link you provided:

"The complex and unpredictable realities of traveling through space make it difficult to predict exactly what path the Tesla will take. Rein said that because there isn’t much scientific value in studying the roadster’s trajectory, astronomers aren’t too interested in pointing their high-powered telescopes in its direction to gather more data. The last time the roadster was observed was in March 2018, about a month after it launched, Rein said"

Roadster has not been tracked since 2018.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Mon Oct 31, 2022 3:12 am

zanl188 wrote:
Avatar2go wrote:

Roadster has not been tracked since 2018.


It's being tracked well enough to know it's orbit with precision, just like other NEOs. And to make these predictions, which aren't possible otherwise. And when it nears earth, it will be identified and tracked, like everything else.

NEOs are not tracked every second of their existence, only when there is a close fly by of Earth, which there will be, according to the model data. It's happened before that NEOs are identified as spent stages that are orbiting the sun.

If you want to disagree, that's fine. Frankly it's a stupid argument over an equally stupid comment.
 
zanl188
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Mon Oct 31, 2022 11:46 am

Avatar2go wrote:
zanl188 wrote:
Avatar2go wrote:

Roadster has not been tracked since 2018.


It's being tracked well enough to know it's orbit with precision, just like other NEOs. And to make these predictions, which aren't possible otherwise. And when it nears earth, it will be identified and tracked, like everything else.

NEOs are not tracked every second of their existence, only when there is a close fly by of Earth, which there will be, according to the model data. It's happened before that NEOs are identified as spent stages that are orbiting the sun.

If you want to disagree, that's fine. Frankly it's a stupid argument over an equally stupid comment.


Sir/Ma’am, you are a prolific poster who, at times, fails to do adequate research to support those posts. Please provide some evidence that there is tracking going on of this object, further please provide NASA/NORAD/whatever agencies rationale for spending time, effort, funds to track this object. Thanks
 
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Re: United Launch Alliance - Tests, Launches, News, Developments

Mon Oct 31, 2022 5:29 pm

Avatar2go wrote:
zanl188 wrote:
Avatar2go wrote:
If you want to disagree, that's fine. Frankly it's a stupid argument over an equally stupid comment.


Then maybe you shouldn't have polluted the thread with your childish, garbage based anti Elon rant.
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