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alberchico wrote:http://china-defense.blogspot.com/2018/04/here-it-is-first-artists-impression-of.html
It would be a gorgeous aircraft if this is the final version but it seems way too advanced for China to design and build:
Ozair wrote:alberchico wrote:http://china-defense.blogspot.com/2018/04/here-it-is-first-artists-impression-of.html
It would be a gorgeous aircraft if this is the final version but it seems way too advanced for China to design and build:
While a nice looking graphic there are some obvious planform issues with the design (acknowledging it’s a rough graphic...) and the design appears more orientated towards a large fighter concept than a long range bomber. It also depends on where a new Chinese bomber fits in, as a B-6 replacement or filling a larger strategic role in the vein of a B-2 or B-52? I’d expect a new bomber coming out of China to be closer to a flying wing. I see little reason today to go supersonic on a new bomber concept given the impending advent of hypersonic missiles, which moves the speed to the weapon away from the platform. Using a flying wing derivative will maximise fuel and ordnance while minimising overall RCS.
I also don’t see either as being beyond the capability of the Chinese to build though, at least from an airframe perspective. A wholly domestic engine remains the sticking point but a subsonic bomber airframe has fewer requirements for engine performance against a fighter jet.
JackMeahoff wrote:When will the Chinese create their own indigenous technology for once instead of stealing it from the West?
alberchico wrote:http://china-defense.blogspot.com/2018/04/here-it-is-first-artists-impression-of.html
It would be a gorgeous aircraft if this is the final version but it seems way too advanced for China to design and build:
JackMeahoff wrote:
When will the Chinese create their own indigenous technology for once instead of stealing it from the West?
Nicoeddf wrote:JackMeahoff wrote:
When will the Chinese create their own indigenous technology for once instead of stealing it from the West?
What do you expect them to do? Put the Cockpit at the rear-end of the craft and the gear on top of the fuselage, just so it doesn't look similar? Physics don't change when you reach China, you know?
JackMeahoff wrote:When will the Chinese create their own indigenous technology for once instead of stealing it from the West?
VSMUT wrote:This wasn't because they lacked the ability to do their own jet, but because they didn't have the resources to do a new project from scratch:
VSMUT wrote:Another point is that many designs differ quite a bit from the lack of design drawings. They only received about half the design drawings for many jets such as the MiG-21, so internally they differ quite a lot.
mham001 wrote:VSMUT wrote:This wasn't because they lacked the ability to do their own jet, but because they didn't have the resources to do a new project from scratch:
Just as a point of order, wouldn't lack of resources mean they lacked the ability?
tommy1808 wrote:They will out-GDP, out-Engineer and Out-Spend anyone that doesn´t have a billion+ labor force at its disposal within all our lifetimes. .
cpd wrote:alberchico wrote:http://china-defense.blogspot.com/2018/04/here-it-is-first-artists-impression-of.html
It would be a gorgeous aircraft if this is the final version but it seems way too advanced for China to design and build:
Where have I seen great elements of this design from before... hmmm.
Chinese military magazine Aerospace Knowledge recently sighted the H-20, the new generation of Chinese bomber aircraft, which was confirmed by experts to be a stealth aircraft and also more powerful as it could be equipped with nuclear and conventional weapons.
China's new generation H-20 has been under development by the Shanghai Aircraft Design and Research Institute since 2008, reported Russian media rg.ru on Monday, saying the research is highly confidential in China and no details had previously been leaked.
China needs long-range advanced bombers that can carry up to 10 tons of weapons without aerial refueling, an unnamed military expert was quoted by the report as saying.
"The new generation of bombers can carry more bombs than the H-6K bombers, has the advantage of stealth features, and is able to strike targets from standoff ranges," Song Zhongping, a military expert and TV commentator, told the Global Times on Tuesday.
Song said that China has made technological breakthroughs in its new generation of aircraft and also possesses proprietary technology, while stressing that "the new generation of bombers should be high-tech aircraft."
"The new generation will be released in two years and enlist in the army within four to five years," Song said.
"The exposure indicated that the technology has entered its mature stage," Song noted.
The expert believed that the bomber is now even able to conduct test flights.
The H-20 could improve the air force in both defensive and offensive capabilities, which will "enable the army to possess stronger nuclear and conventional deterrence," Song said.
JackMeahoff wrote:When will the Chinese create their own indigenous technology for once instead of stealing it from the West?
JackMeahoff wrote:
When will the Chinese create their own indigenous technology for once instead of stealing it from the West?
RJMAZ wrote:This design makes no sense. The intakes above the chines means this aircraft will have severely limited agility. The tail, wings and chines point to high agility. They are both incompatible design features so this is definitely fake.
keesje wrote:JackMeahoff wrote:
When will the Chinese create their own indigenous technology for once instead of stealing it from the West?
Yes, it's all exact copies of a .. well it is anyway!
Arniepie wrote:keesje wrote:JackMeahoff wrote:
When will the Chinese create their own indigenous technology for once instead of stealing it from the West?
Yes, it's all exact copies of a .. well it is anyway!
Well the J20 is nothing more than the Russian designed Mig39 project with a blended body and some stealthifying changes, most notably the engine inlets.
RJMAZ wrote:This design makes no sense. The intakes above the chines means this aircraft will have severely limited agility. The tail, wings and chines point to high agility. They are both incompatible design features so this is definitely fake.
meecrob wrote:RJMAZ wrote:This design makes no sense. The intakes above the chines means this aircraft will have severely limited agility. The tail, wings and chines point to high agility. They are both incompatible design features so this is definitely fake.
My thoughts exactly. The Chinese might be a few years behind the west in aircraft design, but clearly they are not inept enough to design a plane with "shoulder" intakes. I think these pics are just media pieces to create discussion about how their industrial capacity has been improving. I bet my life savings the real plane will look nothing like this.
Arniepie wrote:Well the J20 is nothing more than the Russian designed Mig39 project with a blended body and some stealthifying changes, most notably the engine
inlets.
keesje wrote:Then you are probably one of the school feeling the tu-144 was a Concorde copy and the F15 a MIG25 copy..
China may have released a video teaser of its H-20 stealth bomber and trolled the US's stealth bombers in the process, according to The Drive.
China's state-run aviation and defense company, Aviation Industry Corporation of China, recently posted a video celebrating the 60th anniversary of the founding of Xi'an Aircraft Industrial Corporation, a subsidiary of AVIC, The Drive reported.
The video, which China Daily tweeted, ends with a shadowy wide shot of bomber-looking aircraft covered in a sheet with text reading "The Next" appearing on the screen.
The shot looks eerily similar to a Northrop Grumman advertisement of the B-21 Raider, which ran during the 2015 Super Bowl, The Drive reported, adding that China Defense Online may have also added the ending itself. As such, it's unclear if it's legit.
Still, China has been in search of a long-range bomber.
In 2015, Chinese defense experts said China needed to develop a long-range bomber that could strike targets far from its coast, AFP reported at the time.
Then in 2016, General Ma Xiaotian, a PLA Air Force commander, said China was researching the development of such a bomber, according to Popular Science.
The Drive also reported that conception of the H-20 may have even come before that, citing Airforce Monthly as saying that XAC had built small models of it, but in 2011, the program came to a halt.
In any event, the Pentagon confirmed in 2017 report that China was "developing a strategic bomber that officials expect to have a nuclear mission," also noting that "[past] PLA writings expressed the need to develop a 'stealth strategic bomber,' suggesting aspirations to field a strategic bomber with a nuclear delivery capability."
To that end, the H-20 needs to be capable of carrying a 10 ton payload and have a range of 5,000 miles, The Drive reported.
Popular Science reported that the H-20, in order to strike different continents, needs a 6,200 mile range and carry a 10-20 ton payload, which would most likely require four WS-10 turbofan engines.
Whatever the specifications would be, a researcher working with the US Air Force told Business Insider that the H-20 is a four engine stealth bomber and that the details have not been "revealed except it is to have a dual [nuclear and conventional] role."
The researcher also said that China has built three static H-20 airframes without electronics and engines.
The Drive reported that the H-20's main weapon would probably be KD-20 cruise missiles, and Popular Science reported that it would carry the KD-20s in its internal weapons bays.
The H-20 might eventually even carry "GB-6A stealth cruise missiles and hypersonic scramjet missiles," and act as a command and control aircraft, Popular Science reported.
The "deployment and integration" of a nuclear bomber "would provide China with its first credible nuclear 'triad' of delivery systems dispersed across land, sea, and air," the 2017 Pentagon report on China's military said.
The trial flight of China's new-generation stealth bomber Hong-20 may take place soon, military experts said on Tuesday after China's official television station confirmed the name of the bomber. Disclosing the new bomber is a potential deterrence, Song Zhongping, a military expert and TV commentator, told the Global Times on Tuesday.
"Usually the development of equipment and weaponry of the People's Liberation Army is highly confidential," he said.
Revealing the bomber name before trials shows the Chinese aviation industry is gaining more confidence, said Shanghai-based news site thepaper.cn.
China Central Television confirmed in a documentary in August that "the development of new long-distance strategic bomber, Hong-20, has made great progress."
It was the first time "Hong-20" appeared officially. "Hong" is the first character of hongzhaji, "bomber aircraft" in Chinese.
Song said the public unveiling of the bomber suggested that it might have finished testing the hydraulic pressure, electricity supply and avionics systems.
"The trial flight will come soon," he said.
China's Hong-20 bomber has been under development at the Shanghai Aircraft Design and Research Institute since 2008, Russian newspaper Rossiyskaya Gazeta previously reported.
"The new generation of bombers can carry more bombs than previous H-6K bombers, have the advantage of stealth features and are able to strike targets from standoff ranges," Song said in a previous interview in April.
The Hong-20 could improve both defensive and offensive air force capabilities and "enable the army to possess stronger nuclear and conventional deterrence," Song said.
Ozair wrote:A concept aircraft looking strikingly like US concepts.
A new report by the U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) offers the first official acknowledgment of the existence of two stealth bomber development programs by China’s air force.
A previously-confirmed Chinese strategic bomber and a newly acknowledged stealth “fighter-bomber” are both now under development, the DIA says in a China Military Power report released Jan. 15.
The Pentagon first acknowledged a strategic bomber program exists in a 2017 report to Congress. The admission came a year after a senior Chinese air force official publicly confirmed the effort to develop a new strategic bomber variously called H-X and H-20.
For several years, Chinese and foreign media have speculated about the existence of a separate stealth bomber development project sometimes called the JH-XX, a replacement for the Mach 1.8-class Xian JH-7 fighter-bomber.
The new DIA report also describes the second project as a “medium”-range stealth bomber. In a chart showing the “aircraft systems characteristics” of the Chinese air force fleet, a “next gen” fighter bomber is shown as a development project with an active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, long-range air-to-air missiles and precision-guided munitions.
The same chart also describes the “long-range bomber” now in development as equipped with an AESA and precision-guided munitions, but not long-range air-to-air missiles.
“These new bombers will have additional capabilities, with full-spectrum upgrades compared with current operational bomber fleets, and will employ many fifth-generation fighter technologies in their design,” the DIA report states.
The initial operational capability for both bombers is expected “no sooner” than 2025, the DIA reports, although it caveats that forecast by adding “probably.”
China has unveiled two stealth fighters—the J-20 and FC-31—and numerous designs for radar-evading unmanned aircraft systems over the last decade. China also has introduced a series of fourth-generation fighters, including the J-10, J-16 and newly acquired Sukhoi Su-35, over the same period.
Although a previous Pentagon report to Congress in August described the Chinese fighter fleet as possessing about 2,000 combat aircraft, the new report by the DIA lowers the estimate by 15% to around 1,700 aircraft.
By contrast, China’s bomber fleet has relied upon Xian’s JH-7 and H-6 bombers for decades, with recent upgrades adding to the range and weapons mix of the H-6. AVIC also displayed a model of a JH-7 at Airshow China in November. It was displayed with the designation “JH-7E,” which appeared to indicate a new configuration or perhaps an export variant.
As the H-20 and JH-XX enter service in the next decade, the DIA expects China’s next-generation bomber force to perform a nuclear strike mission and complete a Western-style nuclear triad by augmenting the capabilities of Chinese submarines and ground-based rocket forces.
“As of 2017, the Air Force had been reassigned a nuclear mission, probably with a developmental strategic bomber,” the DIA report says.
China’s stealthy new fighter-bomber also could introduce a unique capability among world air forces. The DIA indicates that China’s air force is developing a medium-range aircraft with stealth characteristics.
The U.S. Air Force has analyzed similar concepts such as the FB-22 and the initial design of the Long Range Strike-Bomber, but never launched development of such an aircraft. Since the retirement of the medium-range General Dynamics F-111, Western and Russian air forces have depended on comparatively short-range fighter-bombers with little passive ability to avoid radar detection, such as the Boeing F-15E and Sukhoi Su-34.
neutrino wrote:JackMeahoff wrote:When will the Chinese create their own indigenous technology for once instead of stealing it from the West?
Then the Dragon fell into a deep slumber from which it has recently reawakened.
b]--"
RJMAZ wrote:https://www.janes.com/article/85813/china-may-be-developing-first-two-seat-stealth-combat-aircraft
A two seat version of the J-20 might be the basis for the smaller bomber we have heard about.
The Su-34 is a twin seat version of the Su-27 and gained 25% more internal fuel for a significant range boost. A similar upgrade to the J-20 while reducing agility would make an amazing fast small bomber.
RJMAZ wrote:https://www.janes.com/article/85813/china-may-be-developing-first-two-seat-stealth-combat-aircraft
A two seat version of the J-20 might be the basis for the smaller bomber we have heard about.
The Su-34 is a twin seat version of the Su-27 and gained 25% more internal fuel for a significant range boost. A similar upgrade to the J-20 while reducing agility would make an amazing fast small bomber.
keesje wrote:I've been amazed since the appearance of the J20 that it was positioned as an interceptor. It's a huge machine with a huge fuselage able to carry a lot of fuel / internal weapons. A two man cockpit doesn't surprise me at all.
keesje wrote:It will create demand in the surrounding countries (Japan, Taiwan, S Korea) for real powerful interceptors. Together with the Su-57 being neither gone nor inferior and the US First policy, things will probably start moving.
keesje wrote:S Korea, Japan, UK, France, Germany have started investing seriously in recent years.
Other countries (Spain, Canada, Sweden) are re-considering their options. I expect 2-3 multinational alliances developing 6th gen fighter bombers in the next decade. The French / German program seems secured. Maybe the Brits & Japanese will join forces and others could join. LM smells the "risk" and offered a hybrid F35/F22 solution to Japan.[/
RJMAZ wrote:The french/german design will be hamstrung by having to land on small french carriers. It will never be able to have the range of the F-35 and will be lucky to have half of the range of PCA.
RJMAZ wrote:I think the J-20 bomber idea wont need a larger weapons bay. China could easily make a 500lb class ground attack weapon to fit where each air to air missile goes. So the aircraft could run 75% A2G and 25% A2A weapons for example, or 50/50 if required.
Ozair wrote:You are looking at it from a USAF perspective. China won't be going to other countries and busting bunkers. What percentage of targets require a 2000lb weapon? I'd say less than 10%. Hand that role over to the bigger bomber.I think a 2000 lb weapon is required for a deep strike mission including bunker bust. You won’t get the penetration required from a 500lb weapon and by the look of that bay it won’t be deep enough to handle that weapon size (for example a Mk84 has an 18in diameter while the Mk 82 only has 10 inch diameter). It also looks like they may struggle to fit three BVR AAMs in each bay. They could as you suggest also design some specific weapons for the aircraft and customise the size of a 2000lb weapon similar to a BLU-109 (14.6 inch diameter). The alternative is external carriage but that defeats the objective of the aircraft.
Ozair wrote:keesje wrote:I've been amazed since the appearance of the J20 that it was positioned as an interceptor. It's a huge machine with a huge fuselage able to carry a lot of fuel / internal weapons. A two man cockpit doesn't surprise me at all.
The J-20 doesn’t have an overly large internal weapons bay by comparison, it is just a big airframe. It appears to be very similar to the F-22 in both depth, door arrangement and layout.
Actually no they haven’t.
keesje wrote:Ozair wrote:keesje wrote:I've been amazed since the appearance of the J20 that it was positioned as an interceptor. It's a huge machine with a huge fuselage able to carry a lot of fuel / internal weapons. A two man cockpit doesn't surprise me at all.
The J-20 doesn’t have an overly large internal weapons bay by comparison, it is just a big airframe. It appears to be very similar to the F-22 in both depth, door arrangement and layout.
Are we looking at the same aircraft? I think that requires a lot of fantasy / generalization..
keesje wrote:They definitely do. Alliances are created as we speak. They want credible defense in a changing world. We won't 5 separate programs, but likely a few. Those nations are looking where to find the lowest risk and most bang for the buck. The America First strategy of the current government is likely causing fall-out for LM / Boeing.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/analysis-tokyo-contemplates-its-future-fighter-pla-453253/
http://defense-studies.blogspot.com/2019/01/indonesia-resumes-payment-for-fighter.html
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-france-military/germany-france-eye-first-contract-for-new-fighter-jet-in-early-2019-idUSKCN1NQ1ON
Ozair wrote:keesje wrote:Ozair wrote:
The J-20 doesn’t have an overly large internal weapons bay by comparison, it is just a big airframe. It appears to be very similar to the F-22 in both depth, door arrangement and layout.
Are we looking at the same aircraft? I think that requires a lot of fantasy / generalization..
Keesje, use a little common sense... The image I linked shows the weapons bay carrying two PL-12 missiles. here is another image in case you don't understand that.
The PL-12 is around 3.85m long and has a diameter of 8 inches potentially plus fins. Those are two PL-12 in each bomb bay. See how they take up most of the space... See how they only fit two in there... See how if they staggered the fit the same as the F-22 that they might be able to squeeze a third, maybe...
That is a pretty tight fit for length so we can tell the bay is likely not much longer than about 4 meters.
So Keesje, please tell me how the bay is going to fit a longer weapon such as a YJ-83 or similar land attack cruise missile. It likely is going to struggle, as the F-22 does, to carry a weapon larger than 1000lb. What will the J-20 use to attack targets deep behind enemy lines, like command bunkers and other fortified structures that require a penetrating warhead?
Slug71 wrote:Ozair wrote:keesje wrote:
Are we looking at the same aircraft? I think that requires a lot of fantasy / generalization..
Keesje, use a little common sense... The image I linked shows the weapons bay carrying two PL-12 missiles. here is another image in case you don't understand that.
The PL-12 is around 3.85m long and has a diameter of 8 inches potentially plus fins. Those are two PL-12 in each bomb bay. See how they take up most of the space... See how they only fit two in there... See how if they staggered the fit the same as the F-22 that they might be able to squeeze a third, maybe...
That is a pretty tight fit for length so we can tell the bay is likely not much longer than about 4 meters.
So Keesje, please tell me how the bay is going to fit a longer weapon such as a YJ-83 or similar land attack cruise missile. It likely is going to struggle, as the F-22 does, to carry a weapon larger than 1000lb. What will the J-20 use to attack targets deep behind enemy lines, like command bunkers and other fortified structures that require a penetrating warhead?
I'm not sure if it's meant for external hard points or the weapons bay will be modified, but the J-20 is supposed to be a launch platform for the larger PL-21. Looks like the might be able lengthen the bays slightly. But not much.
I suppose theres also the possibility that the 2-seat variant might be a little larger overall than the single seat.
It seems like if the side internal bays were removed, some extra depth might be possible for the weapons bay too.
estorilm wrote:Slug71 wrote:Ozair wrote:
Keesje, use a little common sense... The image I linked shows the weapons bay carrying two PL-12 missiles. here is another image in case you don't understand that.
The PL-12 is around 3.85m long and has a diameter of 8 inches potentially plus fins. Those are two PL-12 in each bomb bay. See how they take up most of the space... See how they only fit two in there... See how if they staggered the fit the same as the F-22 that they might be able to squeeze a third, maybe...
That is a pretty tight fit for length so we can tell the bay is likely not much longer than about 4 meters.
So Keesje, please tell me how the bay is going to fit a longer weapon such as a YJ-83 or similar land attack cruise missile. It likely is going to struggle, as the F-22 does, to carry a weapon larger than 1000lb. What will the J-20 use to attack targets deep behind enemy lines, like command bunkers and other fortified structures that require a penetrating warhead?
I'm not sure if it's meant for external hard points or the weapons bay will be modified, but the J-20 is supposed to be a launch platform for the larger PL-21. Looks like the might be able lengthen the bays slightly. But not much.
I suppose theres also the possibility that the 2-seat variant might be a little larger overall than the single seat.
It seems like if the side internal bays were removed, some extra depth might be possible for the weapons bay too.
For such a huge plane, the space-management of the overall design doesn't exactly seem ideal. I guess overall size isn't too different than the F-22, but it is about 5' longer overall. I wonder if it will be capable of a similar loadout to the Raptor's A2G, 2x AIM-9, 2x AIM-120, 2x 1000lb'ers.
On a side note, has anyone actually seen any launch from those "hinged" side launchers? Doesn't seem ideal.. I'm sure it has to sit there for a second and verify everything is closed/locked before it fires. Oh man, if you have a mechanism fail now you're stuck with a big unstealthy missile on the side of your plane lol.
Slug71 wrote:estorilm wrote:Slug71 wrote:
I'm not sure if it's meant for external hard points or the weapons bay will be modified, but the J-20 is supposed to be a launch platform for the larger PL-21. Looks like the might be able lengthen the bays slightly. But not much.
I suppose theres also the possibility that the 2-seat variant might be a little larger overall than the single seat.
It seems like if the side internal bays were removed, some extra depth might be possible for the weapons bay too.
For such a huge plane, the space-management of the overall design doesn't exactly seem ideal. I guess overall size isn't too different than the F-22, but it is about 5' longer overall. I wonder if it will be capable of a similar loadout to the Raptor's A2G, 2x AIM-9, 2x AIM-120, 2x 1000lb'ers.
On a side note, has anyone actually seen any launch from those "hinged" side launchers? Doesn't seem ideal.. I'm sure it has to sit there for a second and verify everything is closed/locked before it fires. Oh man, if you have a mechanism fail now you're stuck with a big unstealthy missile on the side of your plane lol.
Definitely seems like the space management is less than ideal.
Here's a good article explaining the bays
https://theaviationist.com/2013/03/26/j20-rails/
In this clip around the 25sec mark you can get a decent glimpse of the bay doors in operation.
https://youtu.be/-TfJmDbfTfY