jimatkins
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New AF 1 economically sound?

Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:20 am

Just went past VCV coming home from a short beach vacation (going north of LA is the only way for us to avoid hideous traffic) and saw the two Transaero 747-8i frames sitting there. Is it just me, or would it be cheaper to take two frames on the production line and build all the air refueling, communications, and EMP hardening into a new jet than to rip up an already built aircraft? BTW saw Omega Air's DC-10 tanker and a DC-8 sitting on the ramp.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: New AF 1 economically sound?

Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:07 am

They’re not costing out, neither should us.

GF
 
Max Q
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Re: New AF 1 economically sound?

Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:07 am

Of course it would but this is all about the appearance of saving money and politics
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
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Slug71
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Re: New AF 1 economically sound?

Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:58 am

jimatkins wrote:
Just went past VCV coming home from a short beach vacation (going north of LA is the only way for us to avoid hideous traffic) and saw the two Transaero 747-8i frames sitting there. Is it just me, or would it be cheaper to take two frames on the production line and build all the air refueling, communications, and EMP hardening into a new jet than to rip up an already built aircraft? BTW saw Omega Air's DC-10 tanker and a DC-8 sitting on the ramp.


The new frames are not being equipped for aerial refueling and the rest is debatable, as it will all be new technology going in. If the USAF got the frames for a good enough cost, any advantage to adding that in during the production/assembly process will be a wash. The 747-8i frames are bare inside.
 
FrmrKSEngr
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Re: New AF 1 economically sound?

Wed Jun 27, 2018 4:02 am

jimatkins wrote:
Is it just me, or would it be cheaper to take two frames on the production line and build all the air refueling, communications, and EMP hardening into a new jet than to rip up an already built aircraft? .


Problem 1 - ITAR. If you put that stuff in during prodcuction, the aircraft and production area comes under ITAR rules. A bit of a headache for the commercial production area. This is part of the reason the KC-46 is towed to the other side of the field for completion.

Problem 2 - Adding that extra stuff into the in production aircraft would be disruptive to the production line. For the line to flow smoothly, each pane has to spend approximately the same amount of time in each position as the other planes in flow. Now given the low production rate of the 747, there may be some slack to be able to add man-hours to the production position and maintain the required flow. However that would be a short term surge of specialty work. Boeing has worked hard to reduce the amount of customization that takes place on the production line.
 
FrmrKSEngr
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Re: New AF 1 economically sound?

Wed Jun 27, 2018 4:05 am

Slug71 wrote:
The 747-8i frames are bare inside.


The former Transaero were not fitted with full interiors? They were not BBJs.
 
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Slug71
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Re: New AF 1 economically sound?

Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:21 am

FrmrKSEngr wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
The 747-8i frames are bare inside.


The former Transaero were not fitted with full interiors? They were not BBJs.


Nope. It was too late to cancel the frames, but Transaero went bust before the frames rolled out of the FAL. They were put straight into storage after FAL, before any cabin work was done. The last remaining white tail is also rumored to be the test bed for all the rework and systems. So the process should be fairly optimized when it's time to rework the VC-25Bs. If those rumors are to be true. So it's possible that the last remaining white tail also gets sold to the USAF. They did initially want 3 anyway.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: New AF 1 economically sound?

Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:27 pm

jimatkins wrote:
Is it just me, or would it be cheaper to take two frames on the production line and build all the air refueling, communications, and EMP hardening into a new jet than to rip up an already built aircraft?


Both the KC-46 and the P-8A has a large order base, so it is economical to spend the up front engineering to have the provisions incorporated on a new built air frame. The ITAR issue has been elevated somewhat with export control reform.

The biggest driver for not having the mission specific items incorporated in-line is the time frame necessary to do the engineering and build of the various detail components and get it on the aircraft at the beginning of the build. You would have to add 1-2 years or more to the front end of schedule. With the mod, you still have to spend time at the end of the build to to the modification. However, you are not pressed to finalize the design while the frame is being built. Adding 1-2 years to the front end of the PAR time line may not be feasible as the 747 line may not last that long.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
giblets
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Re: New AF 1 economically sound?

Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:35 pm

FrmrKSEngr wrote:
Problem 2 - Adding that extra stuff into the in production aircraft would be disruptive to the production line. For the line to flow smoothly, each pane has to spend approximately the same amount of time in each position as the other planes in flow. Now given the low production rate of the 747, there may be some slack to be able to add man-hours to the production position and maintain the required flow. However that would be a short term surge of specialty work. Boeing has worked hard to reduce the amount of customization that takes place on the production line.


Not so sure slowing down the 747-8 production line is that much of an issue! :)
 
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bikerthai
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Re: New AF 1 economically sound?

Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:47 pm

giblets wrote:
Not so sure slowing down the 747-8 production line is that much of an issue!


Slowing down the 747 line is an issue. The rate at which you produce parts impacts not only Boeing, but all the suppliers up stream. If you slow the parts production to a craw, your parts would be exceedingly expensive. We are not talking about the metal brackets etc, but the system LRU's that are 747 specific. For Boeing, you do have the additional final assembly space for the 747. If you slow the line down, you are not making enough money from that factory space (that cost money to operate). Better to open up that space for an additional 787, 777-x or 797 line to increase your profitability.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
BravoOne
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Re: New AF 1 economically sound?

Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:40 pm

I was under the impression that these two Transaero -8Is were in fact now dedicated to the new AF 1 program?
 
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Slug71
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Re: New AF 1 economically sound?

Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:03 pm

BravoOne wrote:
I was under the impression that these two Transaero -8Is were in fact now dedicated to the new AF 1 program?


They are.

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