ThePointblank
Topic Author
Posts: 3019
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:39 pm

Swiss Restart Fighter Competition

Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:03 am

https://www.reuters.com/article/swiss-a ... SL8N1U242W

Bids to be delivered by January 2019, with a decision to be made by 2020. Aircraft to start delivery by 2025, and they are looking at 30-40 aircraft to replace the F-5 and F/A-18 fleet.

Bidders include:
1. Dassault - Rafale
2. Airbus - Eurofighter
3. Boeing - F/A-18 Super Hornet
4. Saab - Gripen E
5. Lockheed Martin - F-35
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 6554
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Swiss Restart Fighter Competition

Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:05 pm

Are most of the competitors even in production by then?

The Eurofighter Typhoon isn't built by Airbus alone.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
texl1649
Posts: 635
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:38 am

Re: Swiss Restart Fighter Competition

Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:20 pm

I’d pull for the Saab here. It would be interesting to see if a package with cargo/tanker with kc390 might even make sense.
 
Ozair
Posts: 2811
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: Swiss Restart Fighter Competition

Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:44 pm

texl1649 wrote:
I’d pull for the Saab here.

While the Gripen E is unlikely to have the lowest production costs it may have the lowest sustainment costs of the contenders which would likely give it an edge in the selection. It struggled last time the competition was run but the E has a longer endurance than the C so will likely far better this time.

texl1649 wrote:
It would be interesting to see if a package with cargo/tanker with kc390 might even make sense.

Offering that would be a waste of time and resources. There won’t be any additional points awarded and the Swiss don’t operate an aircraft of that size today and have never operated an aircraft that size.

Dutchy wrote:
Are most of the competitors even in production by then?

All the aircraft should be in production by the time the airframe is selected and as such will be able to last until delivery although the Eurofighter may struggle if the aircraft has to come from the German production line. A top up order from Germany for Eurofighters to replace the Tornado now seems likely and this will save that line which was running out of frames to manufacture.

Dutchy wrote:
The Eurofighter Typhoon isn't built by Airbus alone.

While it has production lines in Britain, Germany, Spain and Italy and different manufacturers from each nation have geographical responsibility for production and export the overall program is managed by Airbus. In the case of the Swiss contract I believe it is German Airbus that has the right to offer the aircraft.
 
texl1649
Posts: 635
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:38 am

Re: Swiss Restart Fighter Competition

Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:14 am

I agree overall but I do think the pending protracted American withdrawal from European defense will necessitate some different thinking in sustainment and cargo missions in Europe. Options won’t hurt.
 
Ozair
Posts: 2811
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: Swiss Restart Fighter Competition

Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:00 am

texl1649 wrote:
I agree overall but I do think the pending protracted American withdrawal from European defense will necessitate some different thinking in sustainment and cargo missions in Europe. Options won’t hurt.

Switzerland is not a member of NATO nor a member of the EU (although they do have treaties that allow them access to the single market). In that context the Swiss are likely to continue on the same path they have gone for generations which is neutrality, a conscious decision to have a modicum of defence capability and the best male tennis player the world has ever seen.
 
User avatar
Slug71
Posts: 1115
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:08 am

Re: Swiss Restart Fighter Competition

Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:33 am

My guess would be the Gripen E or Rafale.
 
ThePointblank
Topic Author
Posts: 3019
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:39 pm

Re: Swiss Restart Fighter Competition

Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:37 am

texl1649 wrote:
I agree overall but I do think the pending protracted American withdrawal from European defense will necessitate some different thinking in sustainment and cargo missions in Europe. Options won’t hurt.

The Swiss don't even operate airlifters; the biggest transport aircraft they operate are a Beechcraft King Air, a DHC-6 Twin Otter, and Pilatus PC-6 Porter's.

The Swiss don't have a need for such aircraft as the Swiss military doesn't do overseas deployment, nor are they tied to any of their neighbours in any mutual defence agreements. The Swiss are primarily a territorial defence military, focused on the defence of Swiss territory.
 
User avatar
Francoflier
Posts: 4484
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2001 12:27 pm

Re: Swiss Restart Fighter Competition

Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:26 am

This feels like deja-vu...
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 1913
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Swiss Restart Fighter Competition

Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:58 am

texl1649 wrote:
I’d pull for the Saab here. It would be interesting to see if a package with cargo/tanker with kc390 might even make sense.


They already decided to go for a lease arrangement with the German Luftwaffe for A400Ms, although the deal hasn't been concluded yet. Most probably they will just be buying flying hours from German owned and operated aircraft, similar to how NATO runs the shared C-17 operation.


ThePointblank wrote:
The Swiss don't even operate airlifters; the biggest transport aircraft they operate are a Beechcraft King Air, a DHC-6 Twin Otter, and Pilatus PC-6 Porter's.

The Swiss don't have a need for such aircraft as the Swiss military doesn't do overseas deployment, nor are they tied to any of their neighbours in any mutual defence agreements. The Swiss are primarily a territorial defence military, focused on the defence of Swiss territory.


Wrong on both accounts. They have contract civilian operated airlifters, and they also have multiple overseas deployments.
Swiss peacekeeper missions are, or have been deployed in multiple locations across the Balkans, Morocco/Western Sahara, Georgia and the Korean DMZ. They also contribute a lot to the OSCE.
 
texl1649
Posts: 635
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:38 am

Re: Swiss Restart Fighter Competition

Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:42 pm

I apologize if this is veering off topic but I don't think the Swiss will want/be able to reliably lease cargo capacity from the Luftwaffe. The German Air Force is simply a poorly maintained mess. And the Swiss, while yes not a part of the EU/Nato (not sure how that was surfaced as a relevant topic), remain a part of Europe that is shifting in it's border/security postures as it hasn't done since at least 1989. They also, yes, do deploy on various missions.

The Germans (whom the Swiss have historically leased capacity from) do seem to be moving to get new C-130J's, but the A400 and Transall/older Herc fleets are anything but reliably available, and will face growing demands I believe over the next 10 years.

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/g ... eath-25157

https://www.dw.com/en/german-air-force- ... a-37464284
 
Ozair
Posts: 2811
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: Swiss Restart Fighter Competition

Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:20 pm

texl1649 wrote:
And the Swiss, while yes not a part of the EU/Nato (not sure how that was surfaced as a relevant topic), They also, yes, do deploy on various missions.


Switzerland not being a part of NATO/EU makes a big difference. They have no defence ties to either organisation so no requirement to support, in whatever material way, the military aims and goals of either. They also don’t contribute great bodies of men and equipment to international operations and are hardly setting the world afire with global peacekeeping commitments. Below is a graphic showing Swiss Uniformed deployments in support of peacekeeping missions, including uniform OSCE work.

Image

(note Swiss Peacekeepers couldn’t even carry weapons for self defence until 2001…)

In the context of air transport, the Swiss simply don’t fly around enough stuff/people to need a permanent fleet, contracted solutions are more than sufficient for their needs.

texl1649 wrote:
remain a part of Europe that is shifting in it's border/security postures as it hasn't done since at least 1989.

In the Swiss context the role of the military is the following,

The Federal Constitution and the Military Act assign three central missions to the Swiss Armed Forces: defense; support of the civilian authorities; and the promotion of peace within an international context.

http://www.providingforpeacekeeping.org ... itzerland/

and that role for promoting peace in an international context didn’t happen until 1991 and even in 2015 at the Leaders Summit on Peacekeeping Switzerland did not pledge troops for future missions. Switzerland does contribute money to the UN though and likely sees that as a better means of assisting international peacekeeping efforts than deployments of troops.
 
Ozair
Posts: 2811
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: Swiss Restart Fighter Competition

Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:28 pm

Defence-aerospace has translated the below from the RFQ released.

Air2030 – Issuance of RFQs to Government Agencies of Combat Aircraft Manufacturers

The first Request For Quotations for the next fighter jets has been sent to the government agencies of the manufacturers. armasuisse expects offers in response by the end of January 2019.

On the basis of the requirements published by the DDPS on 23 March 2018, armasuisse, on July 6, 2018, sent the request for quotations for the next combat aircraft to the governmental agencies of the five manufacturers concerned:
-- Germany (Airbus Eurofighter),
-- France (Dassault Rafale),
-- Sweden (Saab Gripen E), and the
-- United States (Boeing F / A-18 Super Hornet, Lockheed-Martin F-35A).

After making contact with their government agency, manufacturers have the option to submit their offer to armasuisse until the end of January 2019.

Tenders must include the following information:

-- calculation of the number of aircraft required by the manufacturer to fulfill the missions of the Swiss Air Force (and in particular to fly four planes permanently for four weeks);

-- price for 40 and 30 aircraft, logistical costs and guided missiles included, as a basis for the subsequent determination of the required number;

-- information and proposals for cooperation between armed forces and procurement authorities;

-- indication as to the possibility of offsets and other compensation.

Evaluation and analysis of costs and effectiveness

Then, the indications of the manufacturers will be analyzed in detail. To do this, the DDPS has defined a weighting of the four main evaluation criteria concerning the effectiveness of the system:
-- effectiveness (operational, endurance) 55%
-- product support (ease of maintenance, autonomous assistance) 25%
-- cooperation 10%
-- direct compensations (offsets) 10%

This weighting will also apply to the surface-to-air defense system (DSA) for which the request for tenders should be sent at the end of the summer.

This time, the comparison of candidates for the new combat aircraft and of the new ground-to-air defense system will be based, in addition to the overall effectiveness, on the acquisition and operating costs.

Next steps

From May to July 2019, fighter jets will undergo, one after the other, in-flight and ground tests in Payerne, after which a second request for proposals will be sent by armasuisse in November 2019, with responses expected by the end of May 2020.

The observations made during the flight and ground tests, as well as the evaluation of the initial quotations, will be included in this second request for proposal. It will ask manufacturers to submit their best possible offer for Switzerland.

The evaluation report will be drawn up from June to the end of 2020, and then submitted to the Federal Council at the same time as the surface-to-air defense system, in order to decide on the model.

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... hters.html

So the project will include the acquisition of air to air weapons to support the new aircraft. The Swiss will also run a second competition to acquire new Surface to Air missiles, not sure if any of the manufacturers will try tie in the new SAMs with the fighter purchase though.

The breakdown of how the competition will be assessed also seems pretty reasonable to me,

effectiveness (operational, endurance) 55%
product support (ease of maintenance, autonomous assistance) 25%
cooperation 10%
direct compensations (offsets) 10%.

The original report in French can be found here, http://www.ddps.ch/air2030
 
aviationaware
Posts: 2091
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: Swiss Restart Fighter Competition

Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:26 am

Ozair wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
The Eurofighter Typhoon isn't built by Airbus alone.

While it has production lines in Britain, Germany, Spain and Italy and different manufacturers from each nation have geographical responsibility for production and export the overall program is managed by Airbus. In the case of the Swiss contract I believe it is German Airbus that has the right to offer the aircraft.


100% correct.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Nomadd and 7 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos