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SeamanBeaumont
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Re: Switzerland Restarting Fighter Competition

Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:24 pm

mileduets wrote:
SeamanBeaumont wrote:
Did this Blattmann guy do any research? The USAF per hour cost may be high but we don’t hear the same reports coming from Norway or Australia or Italy etc. Perhaps the Swiss was able to negotiate a fixed cost for flight hour of the aircraft and LM eats everything above that?

Also the weapons the aircraft uses are the same as the current aircraft. Even if the Rafale was chosen which I think was the other favourite it would have required a whole new set of weapons that aren’t even compatible with the Hornet fleet.

I guess Swiss could have kept the old hornets around, not sure it would cost less in the end given they would become a lonely operator, but that is an academic argument that is a bit hard to justify after you have run a multi year costly campaign to find a replacement aircraft and don’t like the result.

His other plan doesn’t make sense either, missiles aren’t a viable substitute for a fighter aircraft. I’m not sure what else will come in 2025, 2030 or even later that will be cheaper?


As a former chief of staff and air defence general I'm sure Blattmann is still pretty well informed, also informally by former collegues involved in the procurment process. N.b.: It was in his time as chief of staff that the Gripen got selected (and later voted down by the public).

His arguments somehow do make sense. Switzerland has neglected ground based air defence lately - the replacement process for the Rapier and Stinger missiles as well as the Oerlikon Bührle 35mm / Skyguard system has been pushed back repeatedly. A functioning drone / missile defence seems more urgent today and in the next few years than fighter jets (other than in an air policing role).

You haven't made a good case for Blattmann, I have seen the last Swiss evaluation where the Gripen scored the worst of all the aircraft, even les than the baseline Hornet, and yet was still selected.

If you looked at what Switzerland was most likely to face issues with going forward then fighters jets seems the wise choice to me. Say Switzerland in an incredibly unlikely scenario faces a UAV attack similar to Saudi Arabia, do you think the Swiss military and political establishment would or even could move quick enough to authorise the firing of a SAM or AA gun at the UAV?
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mileduets
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Re: Switzerland Restarting Fighter Competition

Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:47 am

1. Blattmann - or rather his Armasuisse evaluation team - were favouring the Rafale that scored best in the technical evaluation; it was the Swiss federal council that selected the Gripen for political and/or financial reasons. I wouldn't put his experience and knowledge into doubt. His motives maybe...he started his military career in ground based air defence and might be a bit biased there.

2. Switzerland is regularly hosting international conferences and events like the WEF with no-fly zones. For this, they need air policing (against stray aircrafts) and ground based air defence (against drones). For air policing, they are currently well enough equiped. But against drone attacks with recent drones such events have become vulnerable. The current systems can't handle them. The need for up-to-date ground based air defence is more urgent.
 
rheinwaldner
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Re: Switzerland Restarting Fighter Competition

Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:36 am

The referendum would not actually be a referendum but a popular initiative. That means, that not only the majority of voters would have to decide against the F-35 but also the majority of the cantons (=states, Standesmehr). And this second criteria is hard to win for left wing/green initiavies. So the government might dare to propose the F-35 anyway. The evaluation showed, that the F-35 is both the cheapest and the best. The news, that the F-35 would be the cheapest caught many left wing commentors on the wrong foot.

I mean, combine the 6 billion budget with the 2023 F-35 unit price and we would get a fleet nearly double as big as intended. So something clever would be to explain the F-35 selection with the possibility to reduce the budget by say 15% or so...
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mileduets
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Re: Switzerland Restarting Fighter Competition

Thu Jun 24, 2021 12:55 pm

rheinwaldner wrote:
The referendum would not actually be a referendum but a popular initiative. That means, that not only the majority of voters would have to decide against the F-35 but also the majority of the cantons (=states, Ständemehr). And this second criteria is hard to win for left wing/green initiavies. So the government might dare to propose the F-35 anyway. The evaluation showed, that the F-35 is both the cheapest and the best. The news, that the F-35 would be the cheapest caught many left wing commentors on the wrong foot.

I mean, combine the 6 billion budget with the 2023 F-35 unit price and we would get a fleet nearly double as big as intended. So something clever would be to explain the F-35 selection with the possibility to reduce the budget by say 15% or so...


That sounds like a viable solution for the government indeed.
However, they will still have to convince many center and right wing voters wary of hidden costs: They will have to show that they haven't been baited with a low acquisition price tag only and be transparent with expected life cycle costs.
To win over the military brass (see Blattmann's analysis), they might want to focus a bit more on cyber warfare and the renewal of ground based air defence, for which also 2 billion Swiss Francs are allocated after all. To underline this, saved costs for the fighter plane acquisition could be re-allocated there.
 
rheinwaldner
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Re: Switzerland Restarting Fighter Competition

Thu Jun 24, 2021 3:39 pm

mileduets wrote:
But against drone attacks with recent drones such events have become vulnerable. The current systems can't handle them. The need for up-to-date ground based air defence is more urgent.

Why is Skyguard not capable against drones?
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SeamanBeaumont
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Re: Switzerland Restarting Fighter Competition

Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:27 pm

mileduets wrote:
1. Blattmann - or rather his Armasuisse evaluation team - were favouring the Rafale that scored best in the technical evaluation; it was the Swiss federal council that selected the Gripen for political and/or financial reasons. I wouldn't put his experience and knowledge into doubt. His motives maybe...he started his military career in ground based air defence and might be a bit biased there.

2. Switzerland is regularly hosting international conferences and events like the WEF with no-fly zones. For this, they need air policing (against stray aircrafts) and ground based air defence (against drones). For air policing, they are currently well enough equiped. But against drone attacks with recent drones such events have become vulnerable. The current systems can't handle them. The need for up-to-date ground based air defence is more urgent.

An interesting take on Blattman here, https://www.blick.ch/fr/news/suisse/la- ... 25809.html where if I read the google translate correctly the claim is he did this intentionally due to some previous issues. Persona non grata is the statement :shock:

The second evaluation on the GBAD hasn't been decided yet. It is between Patriot and SAMP-T so neither really helps in your UAV scenario. I expect a second round of GBAD will be needed if that is the threat they are want to defeat but it feels like a dog chasing its tail, they will never have enough to protect what you suggest.
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mileduets
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Re: Switzerland Restarting Fighter Competition

Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:28 pm

@Rheinwaldner: You might be familiar with the 2019 attack of a Saudi oil refinery by Yemenite/Iranian drones.
This refinery was protected by 3 Skyguard systems that were unable to detect and defend against the swarms of small drones and missiles used by the attackers.
The Swiss Skyguard / Oerlikon 35mm batteries date back to the 1960-ies and 1970-ies. Even though they underwent several upgrades, they are dated. Plus there's only about 25 canons left.
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Switzerland Restarting Fighter Competition

Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:24 pm

mileduets wrote:
@Rheinwaldner: You might be familiar with the 2019 attack of a Saudi oil refinery by Yemenite/Iranian drones.
This refinery was protected by 3 Skyguard systems that were unable to detect and defend against the swarms of small drones and missiles used by the attackers.
The Swiss Skyguard / Oerlikon 35mm batteries date back to the 1960-ies and 1970-ies. Even though they underwent several upgrades, they are dated. Plus there's only about 25 canons left.

I will note however that the Saudi military isn't the most competent military force out there... in fact, I'd say they rank among the top 5 most incompetent militaries in the region.

The general consensus from what I've read is that the Saudi's massively screwed up with their air defence system...
 
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zeke
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Re: Switzerland Restarting Fighter Competition

Fri Jun 25, 2021 8:06 am

mileduets wrote:
For air policing, they are currently well enough equiped. But against drone attacks with recent drones such events have become vulnerable. The current systems can't handle them. The need for up-to-date ground based air defence is more urgent.


For protecting airspace from drones etc for important diplomatic events, surely attack helicopters and PC21s with its hard points could do the role very effectively.
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flyingturtle
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Re: Switzerland Restarting Fighter Competition

Sat Jun 26, 2021 6:35 pm

Today it was reported that Lockheed Martin could make such an economical offer because their simulators are capable of replacing a significant amount of training flight hours, which lowers operating and maintenance costs.

The competitors are furious, because they're sure they could have undercut the F-35 if they were asked to offer planes and simulators.

In Germish: https://www.srf.ch/news/schweiz/kampfje ... riten-f-35
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art
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Re: Switzerland Restarting Fighter Competition

Sat Jun 26, 2021 10:41 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
Today it was reported that Lockheed Martin could make such an economical offer because their simulators are capable of replacing a significant amount of training flight hours, which lowers operating and maintenance costs.

The competitors are furious, because they're sure they could have undercut the F-35 if they were asked to offer planes and simulators.

In Germish: https://www.srf.ch/news/schweiz/kampfje ... riten-f-35


In the article it mentions that Boeing, Dassault and Eurofighter adhered to calculating CPFH according to the rules laid down. I get the impression that LM did not.

A case of 4 OEM's being asked to bring their apples for comparison but 1 of them brought pears instead?

If the Federal Council's decision for the F-35 is based on the low costs due to additional simulator hours, then there would definitely be a fire in the roof. Sharp political reactions would then be expected, especially from the capitals of the European providers.


google translation. I guess 'Feuer im Dach' (literally 'fire in the roof') would be better translated as 'fireworks'.

Will an F-35 choice result in fireworks in Switzerland and fireworks in France, Germany, Italy, Spain and UK as well?
 
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Re: Switzerland Restarting Fighter Competition

Sun Jun 27, 2021 2:05 pm

art wrote:
google translation. I guess 'Feuer im Dach' (literally 'fire in the roof') would be better translated as 'fireworks'.


...but I love literal translations of idioms...

I'm quite sure EADS, Dassault and Boeing are willing to pool a few Swiss francs for a lawyer, and sue the Swiss Confederation if the contract really goes to LM.
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DCA350
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Re: Switzerland Restarting Fighter Competition

Sun Jun 27, 2021 6:19 pm

"Airbus offers to assemble Eurofighter in Switzerland to win $6.5 bln deal -report | Reuters" https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-06-27/

Airbus is throwing everything at this order. Going to be interesting. F-35 is probably the best offer on paper but the economics may favor the Typhoon with this offer.
 
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SeamanBeaumont
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Re: Switzerland Restarting Fighter Competition

Sun Jun 27, 2021 9:23 pm

zeke wrote:
mileduets wrote:
For air policing, they are currently well enough equiped. But against drone attacks with recent drones such events have become vulnerable. The current systems can't handle them. The need for up-to-date ground based air defence is more urgent.


For protecting airspace from drones etc for important diplomatic events, surely attack helicopters and PC21s with its hard points could do the role very effectively.

How do you expect the attack helicopters and PC-21s to find the drones? Not many attack helicopters have A2A radar and the PC-21 doesn't, unless you want to bring back the pod mounted radar WW2 style.

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SeamanBeaumont
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Re: Switzerland Restarting Fighter Competition

Sun Jun 27, 2021 9:27 pm

DCA350 wrote:
"Airbus offers to assemble Eurofighter in Switzerland to win $6.5 bln deal -report | Reuters" https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-06-27/

Airbus is throwing everything at this order. Going to be interesting. F-35 is probably the best offer on paper but the economics may favor the Typhoon with this offer.

Ha seems unlikely. Local production increases costs not decreases them and the OEMs all had to meet industrial participation for their offers. Building a few Eurofighters from kits sent to them by the Germans or British seems pointless.
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Djlorry3
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Re: Switzerland Restarting Fighter Competition

Sun Jun 27, 2021 9:31 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
art wrote:
google translation. I guess 'Feuer im Dach' (literally 'fire in the roof') would be better translated as 'fireworks'.


...but I love literal translations of idioms...

I'm quite sure EADS, Dassault and Boeing are willing to pool a few Swiss francs for a lawyer, and sue the Swiss Confederation if the contract really goes to LM.


The german idiom/phrase "Feuer unterm Dach" means something like a violent argument or a tense mood.
 
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SeamanBeaumont
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Re: Switzerland Restarting Fighter Competition

Sun Jun 27, 2021 9:54 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
Today it was reported that Lockheed Martin could make such an economical offer because their simulators are capable of replacing a significant amount of training flight hours, which lowers operating and maintenance costs.

The competitors are furious, because they're sure they could have undercut the F-35 if they were asked to offer planes and simulators.

In Germish: https://www.srf.ch/news/schweiz/kampfje ... riten-f-35

This claim seems crazy, are you saying that the Swiss ran a competition for approx 40 aircraft and said don't worry about simulators? Surely every single OEM had to offer at least a simulator or two. From youtube videos the F-35 sim is pretty damn good and maybe the others aren't as good? The F-35 also doesn't have a second seat, did the others offer only single seat jets as well or include a number of two seat trainers?

Looks like here the Swiss already have four F-18 simulators for a fleet of only 25 aircraft, http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... ional.html
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889091
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Re: Switzerland Restarting Fighter Competition

Sun Jun 27, 2021 9:57 pm

DCA350 wrote:
"Airbus offers to assemble Eurofighter in Switzerland to win $6.5 bln deal -report | Reuters" https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-06-27/

Airbus is throwing everything at this order. Going to be interesting. F-35 is probably the best offer on paper but the economics may favor the Typhoon with this offer.


As Switzerland is technically not within the EU, would Airbus need to get the EU's OK first before doing this (because it involves military IP transfer)?
 
mxaxai
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Re: Switzerland Restarting Fighter Competition

Sun Jun 27, 2021 10:26 pm

889091 wrote:
As Switzerland is technically not within the EU, would Airbus need to get the EU's OK first before doing this (because it involves military IP transfer)?

There is no unified EU regulation regarding the export of military hardware or knowledge. Each member state has its own laws. So Airbus would have to get permission from Germany, Italy, Spain and the UK individually (or at least some of them, depending on which IP exactly is transferred).
 
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zeke
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Re: Switzerland Restarting Fighter Competition

Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:31 am

SeamanBeaumont wrote:
How do you expect the attack helicopters and PC-21s to find the drones? Not many attack helicopters have A2A radar and the PC-21 doesn't, unless you want to bring back the pod mounted radar WW2 style.


Pretty sure there is other turboprops like the A29 with the ability to carry air to air missiles (AIM-9L class), air to ground missiles (AGM-65 class) and laser-guided bombs so there would already be a solution, also think the PC21 has datalinks to work with ground based radar data.

It also depends depends on the sort of drone you are looking at.

Switzerland is hardly a high threat radar environment, the idea of the F-35 seems to me like too much aircraft for the role.
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Noshow
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Re: Switzerland Restarting Fighter Competition

Mon Jun 28, 2021 12:45 pm

If they agree to all the necessary networking they could hook up their fighters to all of their ground radars and intercept and fight anybody foreign unseen.
I would have picked the F-35 carrier variant if it is still fitting inside their tunnel hangars.
 
744SPX
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Re: Switzerland Restarting Fighter Competition

Mon Jun 28, 2021 2:13 pm

zeke wrote:
Switzerland is hardly a high threat radar environment, the idea of the F-35 seems to me like too much aircraft for the role.



Agreed. Thus makes little sense to me.
 
mileduets
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Re: Switzerland Restarting Fighter Competition

Mon Jun 28, 2021 2:45 pm

zeke wrote:
SeamanBeaumont wrote:
How do you expect the attack helicopters and PC-21s to find the drones? Not many attack helicopters have A2A radar and the PC-21 doesn't, unless you want to bring back the pod mounted radar WW2 style.


Pretty sure there is other turboprops like the A29 with the ability to carry air to air missiles (AIM-9L class), air to ground missiles (AGM-65 class) and laser-guided bombs so there would already be a solution, also think the PC21 has datalinks to work with ground based radar data.

It also depends depends on the sort of drone you are looking at.

Switzerland is hardly a high threat radar environment, the idea of the F-35 seems to me like too much aircraft for the role.


Large drones could be handled by PC-21 or existing jets. The real threat is a swarm of small and cheap drones launched from a short distance. Short range air defence is much more effective and a lot cheaper against this type of threat than attack helicopters (of which Switzerland doesn't operate any) or beefed up turboprops. Loitering time would also have to be taken into account, which is not very long for both.

What the Swiss air defence really needs is a modern SHORAD system plus electronic drone defence. Switzerland's Oerlikon/Skyguard system unfortunately is outdated.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Switzerland Restarting Fighter Competition

Mon Jun 28, 2021 3:21 pm

mxaxai wrote:
889091 wrote:
As Switzerland is technically not within the EU, would Airbus need to get the EU's OK first before doing this (because it involves military IP transfer)?

There is no unified EU regulation regarding the export of military hardware or knowledge. Each member state has its own laws. So Airbus would have to get permission from Germany, Italy, Spain and the UK individually (or at least some of them, depending on which IP exactly is transferred).


There are EU rules surround the export of military and duel use equipment, Norway adheres to it, I know from experience, a company I worked for broke the rules.

https://ec.europa.eu/trade/import-and-e ... -controls/
 
Naincompetent
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Re: Switzerland Restarting Fighter Competition

Mon Jun 28, 2021 3:36 pm

mileduets wrote:
What the Swiss air defence really needs is a modern SHORAD system plus electronic drone defence. Switzerland's Oerlikon/Skyguard system unfortunately is outdated.


IIRC, they sent a request to Raphael regarding the Iron Dome and David Sling systems, but those were prevented from competing by the US...

They also need an air police capability, but the F35 sure seems overkill... I never really understood why the public rejected the Gripen which was near perfect for the limited types of missions they need to fly anyway!
 
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zeke
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Re: Switzerland Restarting Fighter Competition

Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:05 pm

mileduets wrote:
The real threat is a swarm of small and cheap drones launched from a short distance.

What the Swiss air defence really needs is a modern SHORAD system plus electronic drone defence. Switzerland's Oerlikon/Skyguard system unfortunately is outdated.


Yes in total agreement that updated ground based radar and systems will need to play a part, this should include lasers and electromagnetic means of defence.
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SeamanBeaumont
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Re: Switzerland Restarting Fighter Competition

Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:31 pm

744SPX wrote:
zeke wrote:
Switzerland is hardly a high threat radar environment, the idea of the F-35 seems to me like too much aircraft for the role.



Agreed. Thus makes little sense to me.

We will find out more once the Swiss give a public brief but the articles said the F-35 won both the technical and cost categories. It was cheaper to buy, run and was the most capable of the jets offered. Why would you select anything else?
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SeamanBeaumont
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Re: Switzerland Restarting Fighter Competition

Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:32 pm

Naincompetent wrote:
mileduets wrote:
What the Swiss air defence really needs is a modern SHORAD system plus electronic drone defence. Switzerland's Oerlikon/Skyguard system unfortunately is outdated.


IIRC, they sent a request to Raphael regarding the Iron Dome and David Sling systems, but those were prevented from competing by the US...

They also need an air police capability, but the F35 sure seems overkill... I never really understood why the public rejected the Gripen which was near perfect for the limited types of missions they need to fly anyway!

Did you read the Swiss last evaluation, the Gripen couldn't reach F-18 levels of capability.
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SeamanBeaumont
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Re: Switzerland Restarting Fighter Competition

Mon Jun 28, 2021 10:00 pm

zeke wrote:
SeamanBeaumont wrote:
How do you expect the attack helicopters and PC-21s to find the drones? Not many attack helicopters have A2A radar and the PC-21 doesn't, unless you want to bring back the pod mounted radar WW2 style.


Pretty sure there is other turboprops like the A29 with the ability to carry air to air missiles (AIM-9L class), air to ground missiles (AGM-65 class) and laser-guided bombs so there would already be a solution, also think the PC21 has datalinks to work with ground based radar data.

It also depends depends on the sort of drone you are looking at.

Switzerland is hardly a high threat radar environment, the idea of the F-35 seems to me like too much aircraft for the role.

There is a lot of assumptions there which still doesn't make a PC-21 or A29 the aircraft of choice for this type of mission. I'm not sure what is either but I don’t think some PC-21s flying orbits over a conference or some additional AAA will make a big difference.

This high threat radar environment is a silly statement. I've been reading via google translate a few things over the last few days and this one stands out. The swiss answered some questions submitted to them including why the swiss should consider a stealth aircraft.

https://www.parlament.ch/de/ratsbetrieb ... d=20203697

Via translate the question,

“2. The main tasks of the F-35 are the undetected penetration far into enemy airspaces, which are protected by sophisticated ground-based air defense systems, as well as the identification and destruction of enemy threats at great distances. Based on what military doctrine does the Federal Council intend to use the F-35 to threaten distant capitals of highly developed countries? How can the stealth property be reconciled with the principle of avoiding particularly offensive offensive weapons? How does this affect Switzerland's reputation as a peace-loving country?”

The answer
"2. Like the other fighter jets evaluated, the F-35A is a multi-role fighter. It is suitable for air-to-air missions as well as for air-to-ground missions and is not only designed for the latter. The Federal Council has stated that new combat aircraft are primarily procured for the protection and defense of the population as well as their own airspace, but must also be able to support the ground forces. Stealth properties are useful for the protection and defense of the airspace, because defending aircraft can only be seen later and at a shorter distance by an attacker and are therefore less vulnerable.

The choice of aircraft type will have no impact on Switzerland's basic security policy and military orientation."
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wingman
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Re: Switzerland Restarting Fighter Competition

Mon Jun 28, 2021 10:35 pm

After what Switzerland did to France today a large Rafale buy is the least they can do.
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: Switzerland Restarting Fighter Competition

Mon Jun 28, 2021 10:45 pm

wingman wrote:
After what Switzerland did to France today a large Rafale buy is the least they can do.


Hehehehehe...

SeamanBeaumont wrote:
“2. The main tasks of the F-35 are the undetected penetration far into enemy airspaces, which are protected by sophisticated ground-based air defense systems, as well as the identification and destruction of enemy threats at great distances. Based on what military doctrine does the Federal Council intend to use the F-35 to threaten distant capitals of highly developed countries? How can the stealth property be reconciled with the principle of avoiding particularly offensive offensive weapons? How does this affect Switzerland's reputation as a peace-loving country?”


The question really reminded me of the rationale behind the Mirage jets the Swiss ordered in the 1960ies. Well, they were license-built, with massive cost overruns.

See the heading "Mirage affair" here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... _Air_Force
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mxaxai
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Re: Switzerland Restarting Fighter Competition

Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:18 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
There are EU rules surround the export of military and duel use equipment, Norway adheres to it, I know from experience, a company I worked for broke the rules.

https://ec.europa.eu/trade/import-and-e ... -controls/

There is an EU-wide set of recommended guidelines but its ultimately the individual member states that issue any licenses, and they are free to apply stricter rules. This is one of the key issues with the FCAS partnership; France is afraid that Germany might block the export of parts to certain countries. It is also one of the reasons why Saudi-Arabia has not bought any A400M.
 
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SeamanBeaumont
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Re: Switzerland Restarting Fighter Competition

Tue Jun 29, 2021 12:22 am

flyingturtle wrote:
wingman wrote:
After what Switzerland did to France today a large Rafale buy is the least they can do.


Hehehehehe...

SeamanBeaumont wrote:
“2. The main tasks of the F-35 are the undetected penetration far into enemy airspaces, which are protected by sophisticated ground-based air defense systems, as well as the identification and destruction of enemy threats at great distances. Based on what military doctrine does the Federal Council intend to use the F-35 to threaten distant capitals of highly developed countries? How can the stealth property be reconciled with the principle of avoiding particularly offensive offensive weapons? How does this affect Switzerland's reputation as a peace-loving country?”


The question really reminded me of the rationale behind the Mirage jets the Swiss ordered in the 1960ies. Well, they were license-built, with massive cost overruns.

See the heading "Mirage affair" here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... _Air_Force

You will have to be more specific, I see no correlation there at all.
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neutronstar73
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Re: Switzerland Restarting Fighter Competition

Tue Jun 29, 2021 2:00 am

DCA350 wrote:
"Airbus offers to assemble Eurofighter in Switzerland to win $6.5 bln deal -report | Reuters" https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-06-27/

Airbus is throwing everything at this order. Going to be interesting. F-35 is probably the best offer on paper but the economics may favor the Typhoon with this offer.


They definitely are throwing everything at this. But I'm not sure they could bring the operating cost of the Typhoon down far enough to be competitive.
 
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Leovinus
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Re: Switzerland Restarting Fighter Competition

Tue Jun 29, 2021 5:50 am

neutronstar73 wrote:
They definitely are throwing everything at this. But I'm not sure they could bring the operating cost of the Typhoon down far enough to be competitive.


Is there any dependable source on the operating and ownership economics, as well as performance, of modern western fighters? I feel as though most of my knowledge (and, I suspect, others) is more or less anecdotal considering the changing landscapes with updates, tranches, and versions bringing both capability and reliability continuously. A lot of performance figures and comparisons get thrown around, but I have no sense as to wether or not any of it is grounded in objective reality.

I'm not asking to be contrarian, but because I genuinely don't know of any and would like to.
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: Switzerland Restarting Fighter Competition

Tue Jun 29, 2021 8:14 pm

SeamanBeaumont wrote:
flyingturtle wrote:
wingman wrote:
After what Switzerland did to France today a large Rafale buy is the least they can do.


Hehehehehe...

SeamanBeaumont wrote:
“2. The main tasks of the F-35 are the undetected penetration far into enemy airspaces, which are protected by sophisticated ground-based air defense systems, as well as the identification and destruction of enemy threats at great distances. Based on what military doctrine does the Federal Council intend to use the F-35 to threaten distant capitals of highly developed countries? How can the stealth property be reconciled with the principle of avoiding particularly offensive offensive weapons? How does this affect Switzerland's reputation as a peace-loving country?”


The question really reminded me of the rationale behind the Mirage jets the Swiss ordered in the 1960ies. Well, they were license-built, with massive cost overruns.

See the heading "Mirage affair" here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... _Air_Force

You will have to be more specific, I see no correlation there at all.


The Mirages then were explicitly ordered to combat Soviet troops long before they would arrive in Switzerland. Destruction of enemy threats at great distances...

Thanks to the cost overruns, Switzerland wasn't able to buy enough jets to actually employ the doctrine that was developed..... because of the Mirage.
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
angad84
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Re: Switzerland Restarting Fighter Competition

Tue Jun 29, 2021 8:24 pm

Leovinus wrote:
neutronstar73 wrote:
They definitely are throwing everything at this. But I'm not sure they could bring the operating cost of the Typhoon down far enough to be competitive.


Is there any dependable source on the operating and ownership economics, as well as performance, of modern western fighters? I feel as though most of my knowledge (and, I suspect, others) is more or less anecdotal considering the changing landscapes with updates, tranches, and versions bringing both capability and reliability continuously. A lot of performance figures and comparisons get thrown around, but I have no sense as to wether or not any of it is grounded in objective reality.

I'm not asking to be contrarian, but because I genuinely don't know of any and would like to.

No links/sources I'm afraid, but...

... from conversations I've had in India and Europe, the varying configurations of Eurofighters in service all over the world actually hurt the type when it comes to O&S costs versus a generally more stable Rafale product line. The difference was not readily apparent in the early years of either project, and the EF took more export successes as a result, but since the two types have reached a level of maturity to allow for something approaching a reasonable baseline of O&S costs for both, the Rafale tends to come up ahead. This is reflected in more recent export campaigns where the Rafale is viewed favourably, often winning, despite the higher flyaway cost.
 
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Leovinus
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Re: Switzerland Restarting Fighter Competition

Wed Jun 30, 2021 6:13 am

angad84 wrote:
No links/sources I'm afraid, but...

... from conversations I've had in India and Europe, the varying configurations of Eurofighters in service all over the world actually hurt the type when it comes to O&S costs versus a generally more stable Rafale product line. The difference was not readily apparent in the early years of either project, and the EF took more export successes as a result, but since the two types have reached a level of maturity to allow for something approaching a reasonable baseline of O&S costs for both, the Rafale tends to come up ahead. This is reflected in more recent export campaigns where the Rafale is viewed favourably, often winning, despite the higher flyaway cost.


I'll take your word for it. Jack of all trades platforms do tend to be more service heavy in my experience. And the EF certainly had more users with varying needs than the Rafale, so there certainly is logic to that fact if its true. So I can certainly see that. But then this cost must be born against the projected performance of the platform and a myriad of other factors (other strategic values, politics, etc) in the case of a buying nation like Switzerland. But lifetime costs do tend to have the final say. Generally.
 
Noshow
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Re: Switzerland Restarting Fighter Competition

Wed Jun 30, 2021 9:51 am

When is the Swiss government officially announcing their selection?
 
angad84
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Re: Switzerland Restarting Fighter Competition

Wed Jun 30, 2021 11:24 am

Leovinus wrote:
angad84 wrote:
No links/sources I'm afraid, but...

... from conversations I've had in India and Europe, the varying configurations of Eurofighters in service all over the world actually hurt the type when it comes to O&S costs versus a generally more stable Rafale product line. The difference was not readily apparent in the early years of either project, and the EF took more export successes as a result, but since the two types have reached a level of maturity to allow for something approaching a reasonable baseline of O&S costs for both, the Rafale tends to come up ahead. This is reflected in more recent export campaigns where the Rafale is viewed favourably, often winning, despite the higher flyaway cost.


I'll take your word for it. Jack of all trades platforms do tend to be more service heavy in my experience. And the EF certainly had more users with varying needs than the Rafale, so there certainly is logic to that fact if its true. So I can certainly see that. But then this cost must be born against the projected performance of the platform and a myriad of other factors (other strategic values, politics, etc) in the case of a buying nation like Switzerland. But lifetime costs do tend to have the final say. Generally.

Not necessarily germane to the Swiss case, but the Rafale also has more capabilities that are more mature than the Typhoon, so predicting O&S becomes easier — AESA, A2G, Recce, etc. So in recent sales campaigns, customers have better visibility on these costs with the Rafale, versus the Typhoon, where there may still be a degree of (relative) uncertainty when it comes to discussing AESA and Recce capabilities. For a country like India, these considerations ended up being pretty important.
 
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GCT64
Posts: 1926
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Re: Switzerland Restarting Fighter Competition

Wed Jun 30, 2021 2:40 pm

Noshow wrote:
When is the Swiss government officially announcing their selection?


Just done it:

https://www.f35.com/f35/news-and-featur ... ments.html

"The Swiss Federal Council announced Lockheed Martin’s F-35 Lightning II is the aircraft selected from its New Fighter Aircraft competition."
Last edited by GCT64 on Wed Jun 30, 2021 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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firemansparky
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Re: Switzerland Restarting Fighter Competition

Wed Jun 30, 2021 2:41 pm

Selection made:

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/sw ... 021-06-30/

Lets see if this selection is shot down by the voters.

(GCT64 beat me by a few)
 
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Leovinus
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Re: Switzerland Restarting Fighter Competition

Wed Jun 30, 2021 2:56 pm

I'm gonna get the popcorn out. I have much respect for the Swiss form of government, but it does make for some spectacularly interesting political wrangling.
 
Noshow
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Re: Switzerland Restarting Fighter Competition

Wed Jun 30, 2021 3:35 pm

Cool.
Still surprised they did not take the latest Gripen for some reason.
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: Switzerland Restarting Fighter Competition

Wed Jun 30, 2021 3:40 pm

A few bits from the press conference by DefSec Viola Amherd:

- Switzerland will buy 36 F-35A for 6 billion CHF
- they also want to buy four Patriot fire units for 2 billion, to cover an area that encompasses a quarter of Switzerland
- Darko Savic, who led the fighter jet evaluation, said that the F-35A's would cause costs of between 55'000 and 60'000 per hour of flight, and says that "we think the publicly known flying costs of other nations are not reliable"
- Viola Amherd: "We sought the best airplane for our Air Force, and we selected clear criteria", but she also said that the evaluation was also based on secret information that directly comes from the manufacturers. (Uh-oh.)
- a journalist: The F-35A would be a very good fighter for attacks, for example if you'd want to bomb Berlin. But our armed forces have a different task. Amherd: "I wish to point out that we don't plan to bomb Berlin." She also said that the climb rate of all evaluated jets was equal.

Now, It's up to the parliament to decide...
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
duboka
Posts: 61
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Re: Switzerland Restarting Fighter Competition

Wed Jun 30, 2021 4:32 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
- Darko Savic, who led the fighter jet evaluation, said that the F-35A's would cause costs of between 55'000 and 60'000 per hour of flight, and says that "we think the publicly known flying costs of other nations are not reliable"


How can I understand this? Are the numbers given by other countries too high or too low?
 
mxaxai
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Re: Switzerland Restarting Fighter Competition

Wed Jun 30, 2021 4:47 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
- Darko Savic, who led the fighter jet evaluation, said that the F-35A's would cause costs of between 55'000 and 60'000 per hour of flight, and says that "we think the publicly known flying costs of other nations are not reliable"

I assume that this number is in CHF? That would put the expected cost per hour for the Swiss F-35 more than 60% above the numbers claimed for USAF operations, and nearly twice as much as their current F/A-18C fleet.
flyingturtle wrote:
Amherd: "I wish to point out that we don't plan to bomb Berlin."

How kind of them.
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: Updated: Switzerland deciding to buy F-35A fighter jets

Wed Jun 30, 2021 5:32 pm

About the costs per flying hour:

Here's the report - it's a series of live updates from the press conference: https://www.srf.ch/news/schweiz/kampfje ... schleudern

Darko Savic says:

«Die öffentlich kommunizierten Flugstundenkosten anderer Nationen halten wir nicht für belastbar. Wir aber verfügen über verbindliche Angaben für den F-35A. Die Betriebskosten pro Flugstunde betragen zwischen 55'000 und 60'000 Franken.»

"The publicly communicated flight hour costs of other nations we do not view as reliable. But we have binding indications for the F-35A. The operating hours per flight hours are between 55'000 and 60'000 Swiss Francs."

Flight hour costs for the F-35A are between $29,000 and $38,000, as I just googled. The latter figure is a number from a U.S. House Armed Forces Committee meeting.

55'000 Swiss Francs = 59'427 USD
60'000 Swiss Francs = 64'830 USD
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
wingman
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Re: Updated: Switzerland deciding to buy F-35A fighter jets

Wed Jun 30, 2021 6:22 pm

Gas is more expensive in Europe, that must be the difference. Anyway, this is one way to piss off Paris and Berlin equally. Viola says she doesn't intend to bomb Berlin but she just kinda did, with quick run over Paris on the way back.

I really am not sure why Switzerland needs 36 F35s, or any other advanced fighter for that matter. Live your life in blessed neutrality and everyone will see their way to letting you be so long as whatever benefit your neutrality provides is provided equally to all parties.
 
art
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Re: Switzerland Restarting Fighter Competition

Wed Jun 30, 2021 7:51 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
Now, It's up to the parliament to decide...


I thought the Swiss parliament had approved a budget and it was up to the evaluators to select one of the four deals offered.

Is the CPFH likely to go against the F-35 if a referendum takes place? If a referendum does reject the selection, can another aircraft be selected?

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