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art
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Re: Tempest Fighter Jet Programme News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:25 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
art wrote:
What would you like UK (and France) to do?

Work together to build complimentary products not competing products. Splitting up a small market with competing products means everyone loses. Duplication of research and development costs and economy of scales reduces.

Agree entirely.

I think that one of the problems is that the military will not compromise on their requirements. Typhoon/Rafale, for example. Had a single design been produced using the same funds, a better aircraft would have been produced. Had a similar aircraft to both Typhoon/Rafale been designed, cost would have been lower for one aircraft rather than two.

RJMAZ wrote:
With any aviation project Europe simply has to add Boeing or Lockheed as a 25% partner and then have a separate US assembly line. The US will then buy the product no problems. Boeing or Lockheed will then provide input to sculpt the product into something the US will buy. Boeing and Lockheed will then campaign for it to be purchased like the F-15X for example.

The USAF has a demand for a Gripen sized fighter. Lots of European countries have demand for such an aircraft as either their primary fighter or a secondary fighter.

Also it can go the other way. The new US helicooter programs Europe could add SAAB, BAE or Dassault as a partner and give them a European assembly line.


Yup. Do this intelligently and the tax payer (he/she who pays for all military equipment) is a winner.
 
art
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Re: Tempest Fighter Jet Programme News and Discussion Thread

Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:41 am

UK Forces TV looking at Tempest man/machine task responsibility configuration research...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rx-Rey3bA-M&t=838s

A speculative look at Tempest from a somewhat quirky presenter. Includes RR video...

Jump to 2m0s to avoid video intro

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCf1ir6KHdU&t=52s
 
tommy1808
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Re: Tempest Fighter Jet Programme News and Discussion Thread

Tue Aug 31, 2021 6:28 am

RJMAZ wrote:
Irt wrote:
Since the mockup of the FCAS was over 18m in length i doubt your claim of 90kn.. more likley they will be in the 120-140kn range. The Tempest mockup i havet not seen any figures for. Only a 1:48 modell plane, wich said it was 18.12m in length so its also likley will have engines in the 120-150kn range.

You are way off. The European designs just like the F-35 are trading thrust to weight ratio for significant fuel fraction. Range is much more important than being able to accelerate vertical at an air show. The SR-71 could cruise at Mach 3 with less than half of the thrust to weight ratio of the F-35. High thrust isn't needed to fly fast.

Part of being designed for supercruise means they are longer and skinnier with a high mach angle. A 18m long fuselage will result in similar volume and weights to the F-35.

The FCAS prototype is using small M88 engines. You can't grow a 75kn M88 sized engine up to 140kn thrust. It will hit 90kn at that size.


The M88 was designed to scale up to 105kN with the same core in the late 80s. The only reason it isn´t running 90kN for a long time is customers rather used margins to make the engine cheaper to operate.

Google for v002t02a004-90-gt-118.pdf (can´t be directly linked as it wants a token), Page 3

6 stage High Pressure (HP) compressor with three variable stator stages including a variable inlet guide vane, for better flow adaptation at any rotating speed. The number of stages are chosen for good surge margin and growth potential within the SNECMA M88 family, whose thrust range is 75 up to 105 kN with the same core engine;


And there has been 30+ years of material science since.

best regards
Thomas
 
BestIntellect
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Re: Tempest Fighter Jet Programme News and Discussion Thread

Sat Sep 04, 2021 5:01 pm

art wrote:

Yup. Do this intelligently and the tax payer (he/she who pays for all military equipment) is a winner.


When it comes to military procurement the tax payer loses no matter what, unless your whole goal is to set the country as backwards as you possibly can (in all fairness, that is the goal of most politicians).
 
art
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Re: Tempest Fighter Jet Programme News and Discussion Thread

Mon Nov 08, 2021 7:03 pm

 
art
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Re: Tempest Fighter Jet Programme News and Discussion Thread

Wed Dec 22, 2021 3:41 pm

UK and Japan engine development agreement announced by UK MOD:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-a ... monstrator

Sounds like Japan and the UK are moving towards co-operation in their 6G fighter projects. UK has already stated that for the Tempest project to get the go ahead, partners would be needed. IIRC Japan foresaw their F-X programme costing in the region of $50 billion. Perhaps the costs involved are forcing both countries to look for a cheaper way to get a 6G fighter developed?
 
RJMAZ
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Re: Tempest Fighter Jet Programme News and Discussion Thread

Thu Dec 23, 2021 3:18 am

Excellent news! This is what I have been hoping for and posting about for years. Putting pride aside and joining together to get things done.

Now we just need to go another step further and merge the USAF 6th gen and Tempest together. Both are so similar. At that point Australia would definitely join. Australia only purchased 72 of the original 100 F-35's to keep their option open. I am certain in 10 years time the RAAF would have ordered a few dozen 6th gen fighters and the F-35A would move to a high/medium combat mix.

Hopefully more future projects merge such as airlifters, trainers and ships. The way to secure these long term agreements between elected governments is for country A to invest a small percentage in country B's project and country B to invest in country A's project. They can then solesource the equipment.
 
DMJ13030
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Re: Tempest Fighter Jet Programme News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jan 30, 2022 3:01 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
Excellent news! This is what I have been hoping for and posting about for years. Putting pride aside and joining together to get things done.

Now we just need to go another step further and merge the USAF 6th gen and Tempest together. Both are so similar. At that point Australia would definitely join. Australia only purchased 72 of the original 100 F-35's to keep their option open. I am certain in 10 years time the RAAF would have ordered a few dozen 6th gen fighters and the F-35A would move to a high/medium combat mix.

Hopefully more future projects merge such as airlifters, trainers and ships. The way to secure these long term agreements between elected governments is for country A to invest a small percentage in country B's project and country B to invest in country A's project. They can then solesource the equipment.

You won't see the UK or Japan get involved with NGAD for a number of reasons. A prime driver for the Tempest is the military + Industrial loss of sovereignty on the F35 along with the need to protect the UKs large military aerospace industry. The US is likely to demand even more control in the NGAD if they were to even let third countries have any voice/workshare at all. I think this is a good balance as is, Australia could still potentially join the NGAD or Tempest and I think the balance is good for both programmes at the moment. The difficulty with Tempest (and FCAS more so due to the French intransigence) is placating international governmental demands for workshare/capability ownership and it's more about owning IP/capability now than pure manufacturing workshare.

Airlifters may be different as the UK doesn't have any current capability to protect in terms of large aircraft design and manufacture.
 
DMJ13030
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Re: Tempest Fighter Jet Programme News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jan 30, 2022 3:14 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
Excellent news! This is what I have been hoping for and posting about for years. Putting pride aside and joining together to get things done.

Now we just need to go another step further and merge the USAF 6th gen and Tempest together. Both are so similar. At that point Australia would definitely join. Australia only purchased 72 of the original 100 F-35's to keep their option open. I am certain in 10 years time the RAAF would have ordered a few dozen 6th gen fighters and the F-35A would move to a high/medium combat mix.

Hopefully more future projects merge such as airlifters, trainers and ships. The way to secure these long term agreements between elected governments is for country A to invest a small percentage in country B's project and country B to invest in country A's project. They can then solesource the equipment.

You won't see the UK or Japan get involved with NGAD for a number of reasons. A prime driver for the Tempest is the military + Industrial loss of sovereignty on the F35 along with the need to protect the UKs large military aerospace industry. The US is likely to demand even more control in the NGAD if they were to even let third countries have any voice/workshare at all. I think this is a good balance as is, Australia could still potentially join the NGAD or Tempest (or FX for that matter) and I think the balance is good for both programmes at the moment. The difficulty with Tempest (and FCAS more so due to the French intransigence) is placating international governmental demands for workshare/capability ownership and it's more about owning IP/capability now than pure manufacturing workshare.

Airlifters may be different as the UK doesn't have any current capability to protect in terms of large aircraft design and manufacture.[/quote]
 
art
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Re: Tempest Fighter Jet Programme News and Discussion Thread

Fri Feb 18, 2022 6:18 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
Now we just need to go another step further and merge the USAF 6th gen and Tempest together. Both are so similar. At that point Australia would definitely join. Australia only purchased 72 of the original 100 F-35's to keep their option open. I am certain in 10 years time the RAAF would have ordered a few dozen 6th gen fighters and the F-35A would move to a high/medium combat mix.


Any chance of Australia getting involved in Japan's F-X or Tempest? I have no idea what Australia could offer. If not involvement, might Oz be interested in buying F-3 or Tempest?

RJMAZ wrote:
Hopefully more future projects merge such as airlifters, trainers and ships. The way to secure these long term agreements between elected governments is for country A to invest a small percentage in country B's project and country B to invest in country A's project. They can then solesource the equipment.


Makes an awful lot of sense to me.
 
GDB
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Re: Tempest Fighter Jet Programme News and Discussion Thread

Fri Feb 18, 2022 8:09 pm

art wrote:
RJMAZ wrote:
Now we just need to go another step further and merge the USAF 6th gen and Tempest together. Both are so similar. At that point Australia would definitely join. Australia only purchased 72 of the original 100 F-35's to keep their option open. I am certain in 10 years time the RAAF would have ordered a few dozen 6th gen fighters and the F-35A would move to a high/medium combat mix.


Any chance of Australia getting involved in Japan's F-X or Tempest? I have no idea what Australia could offer. If not involvement, might Oz be interested in buying F-3 or Tempest?

RJMAZ wrote:
Hopefully more future projects merge such as airlifters, trainers and ships. The way to secure these long term agreements between elected governments is for country A to invest a small percentage in country B's project and country B to invest in country A's project. They can then solesource the equipment.


Makes an awful lot of sense to me.


Doubt it, they will stick with F-35 and further develop their already impressive Loyal Wingman project with Boeing Australia.
Similar to what is planned for Tempest.

Japan however I can see bringing their F/X experience to Tempest, they flew a technology demonstrator a few years back but recent suggestions of industrial involvement from them could see them as a partner/customer.
They did not seek to make F/X the basis for an operational aircraft, they are a big F-35 customer but also have the same defence/strategic industrial aims as Tempest partners but like them won’t go it alone.
 
art
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Re: Tempest Fighter Jet Programme News and Discussion Thread

Sat Feb 19, 2022 7:32 am

GDB wrote:
art wrote:
RJMAZ wrote:
Now we just need to go another step further and merge the USAF 6th gen and Tempest together. Both are so similar. At that point Australia would definitely join. Australia only purchased 72 of the original 100 F-35's to keep their option open. I am certain in 10 years time the RAAF would have ordered a few dozen 6th gen fighters and the F-35A would move to a high/medium combat mix.


Any chance of Australia getting involved in Japan's F-X or Tempest? I have no idea what Australia could offer. If not involvement, might Oz be interested in buying F-3 or Tempest?

RJMAZ wrote:
Hopefully more future projects merge such as airlifters, trainers and ships. The way to secure these long term agreements between elected governments is for country A to invest a small percentage in country B's project and country B to invest in country A's project. They can then solesource the equipment.


Makes an awful lot of sense to me.


Doubt it, they will stick with F-35 and further develop their already impressive Loyal Wingman project with Boeing Australia.
Similar to what is planned for Tempest.

Japan however I can see bringing their F/X experience to Tempest, they flew a technology demonstrator a few years back but recent suggestions of industrial involvement from them could see them as a partner/customer.
They did not seek to make F/X the basis for an operational aircraft, they are a big F-35 customer but also have the same defence/strategic industrial aims as Tempest partners but like them won’t go it alone.


I see Team Tempest forking out a lot of money to design something very similar to what Boeing Australia has already designed. Why not do a deal with Boeing Australia - at least for the Loyal Wingman airframe? Tempest is a very costly exercise and it is better to devise economic uses of funds than to end up with everything being inhouse and so costly that a decision is made by the UK government not to advance the project to production.
 
GDB
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Re: Tempest Fighter Jet Programme News and Discussion Thread

Sat Feb 19, 2022 8:22 am

art wrote:
GDB wrote:
art wrote:

Any chance of Australia getting involved in Japan's F-X or Tempest? I have no idea what Australia could offer. If not involvement, might Oz be interested in buying F-3 or Tempest?



Makes an awful lot of sense to me.


Doubt it, they will stick with F-35 and further develop their already impressive Loyal Wingman project with Boeing Australia.
Similar to what is planned for Tempest.

Japan however I can see bringing their F/X experience to Tempest, they flew a technology demonstrator a few years back but recent suggestions of industrial involvement from them could see them as a partner/customer.
They did not seek to make F/X the basis for an operational aircraft, they are a big F-35 customer but also have the same defence/strategic industrial aims as Tempest partners but like them won’t go it alone.


I see Team Tempest forking out a lot of money to design something very similar to what Boeing Australia has already designed. Why not do a deal with Boeing Australia - at least for the Loyal Wingman airframe? Tempest is a very costly exercise and it is better to devise economic uses of funds than to end up with everything being inhouse and so costly that a decision is made by the UK government not to advance the project to production.


I would guess that Tempest will want something closer to the planned aircraft for integration and more advanced.
 
art
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Re: Tempest Fighter Jet Programme News and Discussion Thread

Sat Feb 19, 2022 9:53 am

GDB wrote:
art wrote:
I see Team Tempest forking out a lot of money to design something very similar to what Boeing Australia has already designed. Why not do a deal with Boeing Australia - at least for the Loyal Wingman airframe? Tempest is a very costly exercise and it is better to devise economic uses of funds than to end up with everything being inhouse and so costly that a decision is made by the UK government not to advance the project to production.


I would guess that Tempest will want something closer to the planned aircraft for integration and more advanced.


Sure but that brings us back to the eternal procurement problem - the military wanting a system that meets their desired requirement at a price that the government is not prepared to pay. Result being a lot of knowhow is acquired but not transferred into an end result.
 
GDB
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Re: Tempest Fighter Jet Programme News and Discussion Thread

Sat Feb 19, 2022 10:45 am

art wrote:
GDB wrote:
art wrote:
I see Team Tempest forking out a lot of money to design something very similar to what Boeing Australia has already designed. Why not do a deal with Boeing Australia - at least for the Loyal Wingman airframe? Tempest is a very costly exercise and it is better to devise economic uses of funds than to end up with everything being inhouse and so costly that a decision is made by the UK government not to advance the project to production.


I would guess that Tempest will want something closer to the planned aircraft for integration and more advanced.


Sure but that brings us back to the eternal procurement problem - the military wanting a system that meets their desired requirement at a price that the government is not prepared to pay. Result being a lot of knowhow is acquired but not transferred into an end result.


The intention is create both manned and unmanned platforms around a common core, bringing in a system not part of that and though based in Australia, the Loyal Wingman is part of Boeing, which would undermine the desire to retain within the Tempest partners the retention and development of high end defence/aerospace skills.
I suspect SAAB would be the part of Tempest most involved with an unmanned component, while Japan might bring its F/X experience to the manned part.
If they don’t we are still looking at a tri national effort, UK, Italy and Sweden, all with substantial aerospace industries they want to retain core capabilities for.
 
art
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Re: Tempest Fighter Jet Programme News and Discussion Thread

Thu Apr 28, 2022 7:08 am

During the British PM’s visit to India last week, New Delhi and London agreed to strengthen defense and security cooperation. Reports from India suggest that UK is keen on Indian involvement in Tempest.

“Tempting Tempest” – Will India Accept UK’s Invitation To Join Its Sixth-Gen Tempest Fighter Jet Program?
https://eurasiantimes.com/will-india-ac ... n-program/

Is India ready to join the sixth-generation Tempest Future Combat Air System programme?
https://www.financialexpress.com/defenc ... e/2504182/

Specific roles that could be allocated to India...
http://idrw.org/uk-offers-india-a-signi ... ore-282037
 
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BaconButty
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Re: Tempest Fighter Jet Programme News and Discussion Thread

Tue May 17, 2022 3:48 pm

Looks like Tempest and the Japanese F3 programme will come together.

https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/air- ... he-uk/None

Japan, the UK, Italy and Sweden, interesting.
 
RJMAZ
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Re: Tempest Fighter Jet Programme News and Discussion Thread

Wed May 18, 2022 2:58 am

It is about time we see all of these aircraft programs begin to merge.

Tempest has gone from a 5% chance of entering service to a 50% chance of entering service in my opinion.

Sweden joining makes sense as they need something to keep their industry running after Gripen. Italy likewise has industry involved in Eurofighter production and they will need something to move onto after 2030.

Italy having an assembly line for the F-35 I would have expected them to keep purchasing more F-35 and maybe assemble some for future European customers.
 
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c933103
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Re: Tempest Fighter Jet Programme News and Discussion Thread

Wed May 18, 2022 12:19 pm

https://toyokeizai.net/articles/-/589560
Japanese media reports on collaborating with UK's BAE in developing FX instead of the originally planned US's Lockheed Martin.
Summary:
- US is now developing next generation aircraft with the like of NGAD and Royal Wingman, which have great gap in term of both technologies and timing with Japan's FX program which would be of the level of fifth generation fighter
- US MoD and Lockheed Martin might not feel any merits in developing a next generation manned fighter with Japan based on existing aircraft
- For main equipment of fighter like radar or electronic warfare system, US want to adopt US component from the very early phase of development, however Japan want to ensure flexibility in modification and ability to expand and adopt next generation technologies during and after development, especially with past experience with F2 and F15
- On the other hand, Tempest have same schedule as Japan's FX program, targeting deployment by 2035.
- And both Japan and UK are oceanic countries, needing long range, and need 2 engine to carry heavy missiles, that the currently available F35 cannot satisfy
- Japan MoD think that with UK, it will be possible to form partnership on equal ground, especially with past experience of British help offered during development of F2.
- Joint development between UK and Japan can increase production quantity, reduce the cost, and hopefully each countries can export to different markets.
-
 
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keesje
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Re: Tempest Fighter Jet Programme News and Discussion Thread

Thu May 19, 2022 7:36 pm

BaconButty wrote:
Looks like Tempest and the Japanese F3 programme will come together.

https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/air- ... he-uk/None

Japan, the UK, Italy and Sweden, interesting.


It seems each country is well financed and value for the development program. With Saab in to prevent it becoming E250mln Albatrosses.
 
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keesje
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Re: Tempest Fighter Jet Programme News and Discussion Thread

Thu May 19, 2022 7:37 pm

BaconButty wrote:
Looks like Tempest and the Japanese F3 programme will come together.

https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/air- ... he-uk/None

Japan, the UK, Italy and Sweden, interesting.


It seems each country is well financed and value for the development program. With Saab in to prevent it becoming E250mln Albatrosses.

I think the Japanese haven't forgotten the F22 situation.

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