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LightningZ71 wrote:Or broker the same deal that the Israelis did as they seem to have significantly more control over their F-35s than most other countries...
bikerthai wrote:LightningZ71 wrote:Or broker the same deal that the Israelis did as they seem to have significantly more control over their F-35s than most other countries...
For that, you need virtual control of the US Congress or be blood brothers like the UK and Audtrailia. Canada can also get what ever they want. Except for the fact that they often are wishy washy on what they want.
bt
art wrote:Was UK offered the codes to integrate Meteor? If so, why is LM doing it?
bikerthai wrote:art wrote:Was UK offered the codes to integrate Meteor? If so, why is LM doing it?
My guess is it's a business decision.
The US government can provide the interface (they control that) but aircraft side intellectual property still belongs to LM.
bt
The head of the Italian Air Force will travel to Japan next month to hold talks with his Japanese counterpart about collaboration on sixth-generation fighter technology.
art wrote:The head of the Italian Air Force will travel to Japan next month to hold talks with his Japanese counterpart about collaboration on sixth-generation fighter technology.
PS article published in Sep so visit is scheduled for this month.
https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... hter-jets/
Another sign of Tempest/F-X sharing systems in the future? I think that is looking more probable.
Air Force officials have hinted there may be opportunities for the US and its allies to co-develop technologies that could be “associated” with future tactical aircraft — specifically the Collaborative Combat Aircraft (CCA) drones that will operate alongside the Next Generation Air Dominance (NGAD) manned fighter, as well as the mission systems inside the fighter itself.
Joint development of Next-generation fighter by Japan, Britain, and Italy, agreement to be reached next month, future export in mind
The government has decided to jointly develop a successor to the Air Self-Defense Force's F2 fighter with Britain and Italy. A formal agreement is expected next month. With an eye on exports after development, along with the revision of the three security-related documents, the government plans to review the operational guidelines for the "Three Principles on Transfer of Defense Equipment," which permit the export of weapons under certain conditions, with the aim of exporting them in the future.
art wrote:Purported translation of an article published by Yahoo Japan...
Source (in Japanese): https://news.yahoo.co.jp/articles/002d7 ... 9f1ae56964Joint development of Next-generation fighter by Japan, Britain, and Italy, agreement to be reached next month, future export in mind
The government has decided to jointly develop a successor to the Air Self-Defense Force's F2 fighter with Britain and Italy. A formal agreement is expected next month. With an eye on exports after development, along with the revision of the three security-related documents, the government plans to review the operational guidelines for the "Three Principles on Transfer of Defense Equipment," which permit the export of weapons under certain conditions, with the aim of exporting them in the future.
I'm not sure whether the intention is to develop a single aircraft instead of two (F3 and Tempest). Whichever, Tempest's chances of turning into a real, live aircraft look to be greatly enhanced to me.
art wrote:Rishi Sunak (UK prime minister) is set to announce a collaboration between the UK, Italy and Japan to develop a new fighter jet that uses artificial intelligence.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-63908284
TheSonntag wrote:Somehow it seems to me (from a German perspective) that Tempest and FCAS are a lost chance. Or rather said, the Germans and Spanish should have stayed with Tempest, which is more or less a EF Typhoon successor. FCAS seems to much dominated by French interests.
art wrote:Rishi Sunak (UK prime minister) is set to announce a collaboration between the UK, Italy and Japan to develop a new fighter jet that uses artificial intelligence.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-63908284
TheSonntag wrote:Somehow it seems to me (from a German perspective) that Tempest and FCAS are a lost chance. Or rather said, the Germans and Spanish should have stayed with Tempest, which is more or less a EF Typhoon successor. FCAS seems to much dominated by French interests.
accentra wrote:Depending on what is actually announced, this is pretty huge, especially if, say, Japan is announced as a truly 'full partner'. Lots of both geopolitical and industrial implications, if that's so.
art wrote:bikerthai wrote:art wrote:Was UK offered the codes to integrate Meteor? If so, why is LM doing it?
My guess is it's a business decision.
The US government can provide the interface (they control that) but aircraft side intellectual property still belongs to LM.
bt
The 'special' relationship is not so special, is it? I recall the UK came close to pulling out of the F-35B about 15 years ago when it became clear that US would not share codes to enable UK to interface weapons. I recall seeing a British admiral talking to a committee in the US Congress about this. I thought US had changed its mind but clearly not so if US is doing Meteor integration.
https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/uk ... ons-01549/
LM may have agreed to supply codes to UK. I don't know, but agreements with US are worth nothing if Congress can decide that they are not valid. In a nutshell, you cannot trust the US where defence is concerned..
Aesma wrote:art wrote:bikerthai wrote:
My guess is it's a business decision.
The US government can provide the interface (they control that) but aircraft side intellectual property still belongs to LM.
bt
The 'special' relationship is not so special, is it? I recall the UK came close to pulling out of the F-35B about 15 years ago when it became clear that US would not share codes to enable UK to interface weapons. I recall seeing a British admiral talking to a committee in the US Congress about this. I thought US had changed its mind but clearly not so if US is doing Meteor integration.
https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/uk ... ons-01549/
LM may have agreed to supply codes to UK. I don't know, but agreements with US are worth nothing if Congress can decide that they are not valid. In a nutshell, you cannot trust the US where defence is concerned..
Does MDBA then needs to provide Meteor's source code or can the integration be done with only some insight into the missile's systems ?
In fact I thought one advance of the F35 was that no source code was needed to integrate new stuff as it was modular or something ?
The UK is making strong early progress with its sixth-generation flying technology demonstrator programme, with its industry partners having already performed tests on key engine, crew escape and flight control technologies.
Schroinx wrote:I don't know how many Tempest and FCAS they intend to build, but it is clear that if they only build 500-600 of each as EF and Rafaele, and the F35 has already reached 1000 airframes in production, then the European 6 gen fighters will either be very expensive or have fewer capabilities than the US 6 gen platforms.
Perhaps the European partners of FCAS and Tempest should look into joining the two programs?
Schroinx wrote:I don't know how many Tempest and FCAS they intend to build, but it is clear that if they only build 500-600 of each as EF and Rafaele, and the F35 has already reached 1000 airframes in production, then the European 6 gen fighters will either be very expensive or have fewer capabilities than the US 6 gen platforms.
Perhaps the European partners of FCAS and Tempest should look into joining the two programs?
Schroinx wrote:I think the reason for the Tempest and FCAS are not to compete, but to ensure that Uncle Joe does not know about everything we do, nor is dependent on US goodwill to implement tech or for the production of missiles and munitions or replacement airframes. The F35 is a very good plane, but it also keeps its users dependent on US goodwill and US weapons, while starving local European companies and know-how. What if we do stuff that the US should not know about? Even the UK with their special relationship has come to that conclusion. Tempest is not about a 6 gen fighter, but about UKs in/dependence on the US. If they have bought more F35s they would swallow the hook, line and sinker.
What if the US and China start a war and Trump is president. If Putin then attacks Europe, is Trump or someone like him gonna divide limited US missile&munnitions production to supply the EU? I have my worries about that.
Ben Wallace said to the Economist. "Perhaps surprisingly, for it is not a popular view in his party, Mr Wallace, while hailing America’s extraordinary support for Ukraine, expresses sympathy with Mr Macron, pointing out the importance of collaboration by Europe’s defence industries. “The French have a point in lots of areas,” he says. “The answer to everything is not America first, when it comes to procurement."
PaddelBro wrote:France and Germany wanted an Itar free, EU produced aircraft all along as part of their Strategic Autonomy concept.
They consciously decided right at the outset to leave out the UK for a myriad of very real and sensible reasons.
Look at the timeline: Since about 2014-15 Germany had been thinking out loud about initiating a new fighter project. In late 2017 the first rumours of plans for a franco-german fightrtr surfaced.
In March 2018 France and Germany jointly make an inital announcement.
Then in june 2018 out of nowhere the UK presents tempest at Farnborough.
It's a physical mock up of an actual fighter and the media pr campaign pushed implies it's a full fighter program.
But if you read all the actual official statements and announcements "Team Tempest" never explicitly defines an actual aircraft as the endpoint.
Nonetheless the media and commentators universally frame Tempest as a full fighter programme and endlessly repeat how Tempest is "clearly more advanced than FCAS". They also pronounce FCAS to be dead on at least 10 separate occasions.
Then in December 2022 suddenly GCAP is announced. So now Japan and UK and Italy will have to negotiate and agree operational requirements, preliminary workshares and start introducing their Engineers to each other...
But.of course GCAP is now clearly ahead of FCAS. Oh and FCAS is pretty much dead, this time totally for realz, totally!!!!
Saudi Arabia wants to participate in the UK-led GCAP. The United Kingdom and Italy welcome the addition of the oil-rich country, but Japan has reservations.
According to the Financial Times, which first reported the Kingdom's request, not all members view the attempt similarly. Under the Global Combat Air Programme (GCAP), companies from the United Kingdom, Japan, and Italy are working to develop a new fighter jet and other systems, such as unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs). The program aims to deliver the first planes by 2035, a tight deadline. The United Kingdom, Italy, and Japan formed a tri-national alliance. It is known that Saudi Arabia was interested in the project because of its 2030 vision and had established contacts to be a part of it. The UK and Italy welcome Saudi membership, while Japan opposes it.
art wrote:Would it not be better to keep SA as a possible future customer rather than a fully paid up member of the GCAP project? A sensible thing to do would be to find out what SA are seeking from a 6G aircraft. Possibly Australia, too? In that way - should GCAP be launched - a design more likely to gain substantial sales beyond Japan, UK and Italy might be devised.
Dano1977 wrote:I read today in the Times paper, that Germany is looking to leave the £100billion partnership it has with France and join the Tempest program.
I would link the article, but it's behind a paywall.
RJMAZ wrote:France doesn't need to rush to develop their 5th gen fighter as the Dassault Neuron can easily get the job done. The Neuron first flew in 2012 only a year after the US Navy X-47B. The Neuron has been under continuous development for the last 10 years. With weapon release testing in 2015 it has now done over 170 flights. When it comes to drones it's 99% to do with the software, French software programmers would be working non stop.
I predict the Rafale will still be in production in 10 years time and they will replace old Rafale aircraft with new Rafale aircraft. Rafale pilots will use Dassault Neuron as loyal wingman drones to perform missions that would be considered dangerous even for the F-35 or Tempest.
https://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/gr ... n-flights/
The smartest move for France would be to join the KF-21 program. First it would require swallowing a bit of pride but they could join in a way where it sounds like France is the one providing the knowledge. France can then just build the KF-21 in France. It is the perfect size for the French carriers. Layout and dimensions are the same as the French FCAS proposal. Korea already plans to develop a carrier capable KF-21. The M88 engine is slightly smaller than the F414 but I'm sure the evolved M88 would be the perfect engine for the KF-21 giving it a performance boost. France could provide engine technology transfer to Korea for the Block 2 KF-21. The US licenced F414 engines would be a key item that prevents the KF-21 from being sold to tier 2 countries.
The French avionics and electronic jamming technology used in the Rafale would also be highly beneficial to the KF-21 program. This would be key to bringing it up to the level of the F-35.
Dano1977 wrote:I read today in the Times paper, that Germany is looking to leave the £100billion partnership it has with France and join the Tempest program.
I would link the article, but it's behind a paywall.
GCAP will be "a trilateral project based on equal participation in terms of costs and benefits, as well as on our three countries sharing the best technology", Italian Defence Minister Guido Crosetto said.
GCAP is expected to cost tens of billions of dollars but the three participating countries have not yet finalised how the budget will be split.
In March, Reuters reported that Britain and Japan would dominate the programme, leaving Italy in a junior role, but Rome officials have repeatedly said they will be equal partners.
Chaostheory wrote:Prior to retirement from the armed forces, my German father in law worked in OCCAR procurement office within NATO. In his experience, the Germans followed by the French would cause most of the day to day problems with a lot of background politics. He recalled one instance where the French intentionally delayed delivery of an MRTT tanker to make Airbus liable for delivery penalties.
GDB has mentioned the issues with Typhoon development. There were also issues during Tornado where the Germans threatened to withdraw on many occasions. The Brits and Italians called their bluff and carried on regardless.
For now, the expertise exists in Europe without involving the Germans and French, to develop the next gen fighter. Other than additional funding, I can't see any further advantage to German involvement in Tempest.
The Germans need to be told to get on their bicycle.
GDB wrote:Thanks for that information, I was around during Tornado development but far too young!
Though I dimly recall reading somewhere that West Germany really wanted a single seater, not the IDS version as built.
art wrote:I am sure that French input would result in a much improved KF-21 but history suggests that France would want to demote KAI to junior partner in its own project.
GDB wrote:France won’t do any of that. Not a chance but it does, if this report is true really put them in a tight spot.
We will have to wait for some news from other, hopefully more specialist sources.
GDB wrote:In the five years this thread has been going, from the start this project was denigrated, ridiculed including by you.
art wrote:What would the German fast jet and avionics sector do after Typhoon if not involved in FCAS or GCAP?
RJMAZ wrote:art wrote:I am sure that French input would result in a much improved KF-21 but history suggests that France would want to demote KAI to junior partner in its own project.
I was thinking more about France just using the KF-21 design not like the F-35 shared development program. It would be similar to the French Mirage 5 and Israel IAI Kfir fighters. Or the Russia SU-27 and Chinese J-11/15.
This would save France $5+ billion of design, aerodynamic and flight testing. The KF-21 is absolutely perfect to the inch to fit the French carrier elevators. The wing sweep are all perfect for a low landing speed without requiring canards. The French version might have the Rafale avionics package and M88 engines. France wouldn't even have to pay money to have unlimited use of the KF-21 design. France could instead provide the latest Safran turbine technology and Thales Spectra secrets to Korea. Korea would then leapfrog China and Japan.GDB wrote:France won’t do any of that. Not a chance but it does, if this report is true really put them in a tight spot.
We will have to wait for some news from other, hopefully more specialist sources.
Licencing the KF-21 design and fitting Rafale avionics is such an obvious solution.GDB wrote:In the five years this thread has been going, from the start this project was denigrated, ridiculed including by you.
Indeed I have been critical of these 5th gen fighter programs that are now pretending to be 6th gen to remain relevant and obtain funding. If they said the truth that they are actually making a 5th gen fighter then the cost comparisons will get made with the F-35. I highly doubt Tempest will match the speed of the 5th gen F-22 or the avionics of the 5th gen F-35. The UK and Japan have never produced a stealth aircraft so it is doubtful they would be able to match NGAD 6th gen fighter levels of stealth.
The UK had no chance of making Tempest by themselves. Now other countries have joined I give them a 50% chance of producing a production aircraft. I expect to see a prototype fly around 2030 and then projected costs will rise, production numbers will get slashed causing a death spiral. They will most likely kick the can down the road and end up buying additional F-35.
UK and Japan will be able to buy a US made 6th gen fighter.art wrote:What would the German fast jet and avionics sector do after Typhoon if not involved in FCAS or GCAP?
Loyal wingman drones. Not every country needs the bragging rights of going to space or making the latest generation fighter jet. The western world should stop competing against each other and make complementary products. The aerospace sector still does advanced work.
In 10 years time we will have:
60t MTOW NGAD 6th gen $300 million
40t MTOW FA-XX 5.5 gen $200 million
30t MTOW F-35 5th gen $100 million
25t MTOW KF-21 4.5 gen $75 million.
10t MTOW Boeing F-7 4th gen $25million
Now the F-16 block 70, F-15EX, Eurofighter, Gripen and Rafale will all struggle to remain relevant in the long term. India wants to go head to head against the KF-21 and F-35. The obvious market gap would be for a mini F-35 that is the size of the Gripen. Stealthy and also available as an unmanned drone version. Look at the Boeing MQ-28 loyal wingman drone made in Australia. Scale this design up 20-30% and fit a single EJ200 engine with a single seat cockpit. The unmanned version would sell in large quantities to provide larger production volume to make the single seat manned version more affordable.
RJMAZ wrote:art wrote:I am sure that French input would result in a much improved KF-21 but history suggests that France would want to demote KAI to junior partner in its own project.
I was thinking more about France just using the KF-21 design not like the F-35 shared development program. It would be similar to the French Mirage 5 and Israel IAI Kfir fighters. Or the Russia SU-27 and Chinese J-11/15.
This would save France $5+ billion of design, aerodynamic and flight testing. The KF-21 is absolutely perfect to the inch to fit the French carrier elevators. The wing sweep are all perfect for a low landing speed without requiring canards. The French version might have the Rafale avionics package and M88 engines. France wouldn't even have to pay money to have unlimited use of the KF-21 design. France could instead provide the latest Safran turbine technology and Thales Spectra secrets to Korea. Korea would then leapfrog China and Japan.GDB wrote:France won’t do any of that. Not a chance but it does, if this report is true really put them in a tight spot.
We will have to wait for some news from other, hopefully more specialist sources.
Licencing the KF-21 design and fitting Rafale avionics is such an obvious solution.GDB wrote:In the five years this thread has been going, from the start this project was denigrated, ridiculed including by you.
Indeed I have been critical of these 5th gen fighter programs that are now pretending to be 6th gen to remain relevant and obtain funding. If they said the truth that they are actually making a 5th gen fighter then the cost comparisons will get made with the F-35. I highly doubt Tempest will match the speed of the 5th gen F-22 or the avionics of the 5th gen F-35. The UK and Japan have never produced a stealth aircraft so it is doubtful they would be able to match NGAD 6th gen fighter levels of stealth.
The UK had no chance of making Tempest by themselves. Now other countries have joined I give them a 50% chance of producing a production aircraft. I expect to see a prototype fly around 2030 and then projected costs will rise, production numbers will get slashed causing a death spiral. They will most likely kick the can down the road and end up buying additional F-35.
UK and Japan will be able to buy a US made 6th gen fighter.art wrote:What would the German fast jet and avionics sector do after Typhoon if not involved in FCAS or GCAP?
Loyal wingman drones. Not every country needs the bragging rights of going to space or making the latest generation fighter jet. The western world should stop competing against each other and make complementary products. The aerospace sector still does advanced work.
In 10 years time we will have:
60t MTOW NGAD 6th gen $300 million
40t MTOW FA-XX 5.5 gen $200 million
30t MTOW F-35 5th gen $100 million
25t MTOW KF-21 4.5 gen $75 million.
10t MTOW Boeing F-7 4th gen $25million
Now the F-16 block 70, F-15EX, Eurofighter, Gripen and Rafale will all struggle to remain relevant in the long term. India wants to go head to head against the KF-21 and F-35. The obvious market gap would be for a mini F-35 that is the size of the Gripen. Stealthy and also available as an unmanned drone version. Look at the Boeing MQ-28 loyal wingman drone made in Australia. Scale this design up 20-30% and fit a single EJ200 engine with a single seat cockpit. The unmanned version would sell in large quantities to provide larger production volume to make the single seat manned version more affordable.
aumaverick wrote:And who's gonna fly it, kid? You?
GDB wrote:Sorry, but you have been wrong on this from the start.
RJMAZ wrote:aumaverick wrote:And who's gonna fly it, kid? You?