Ozair
Posts: 3896
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: UK unveils new Tempest fighter jet model as replacement of the Typhoon

Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:09 am

The UK seems to be doing all the right things to get industry involved although no involvement yet with foreign companies and countries.

UK holds Team Tempest industry day

The UK government has drawn together representatives from the across the nation's defence aerospace industry to engage on the Tempest future fighter and other aspects of the wider Future Combat Air System (FCAS).

The event, held at Farnborough on 19 March, was the first time that companies outside of the four current Team Tempest participants of BAE Systems, Leonardo UK, MBDA, and Rolls-Royce had been invited to collaborate on the concepts, technologies, and capabilities that should lead to an operational combat aircraft entering service with the Royal Air Force (RAF) in the 2030s. The Tempest will be part of wider FCAS that will include swarming unmanned aircraft and other capabilities.

With the Minister for Defence Procurement, Stuart Andrew, launching the event, some 300 delegates including subject matter experts (SMEs) and technology-led organisations were in attendance "to build connections and take part in a series of briefings outlining the capabilities and skills needed to shape the future of Combat Air System delivery in the UK", BAE Systems said.

The Tempest programme is a fundamental pillar of the Ministry of Defence's (MoD's) Combat Air Strategy announced in February last year, with GBP2 billion (USD2.65 billion) initial investment in the project announced at the 2018 Farnborough Air Show.

According to BAE Systems, which along with its three industrial partners is also working with the RAF Rapid Capabilities Office, Defence Science and Technology Laboratory (Dstl), and Defence Equipment and Support (DE&S) on the Tempest project, the industry event was followed by a classified briefing.

"The event today has set into motion a series of discussions to develop the right capabilities, the right technologies, and the right level of agility and collaborative working to meet the demands of this future acquisition programme, delivering a prosperous and sustainable sector," BAE Systems noted, although neither it nor the UK government disclosed if or when this industry day might result in contracts.

https://www.janes.com/article/87318/uk- ... dustry-day
 
estorilm
Posts: 629
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:07 am

Re: UK unveils new Tempest fighter jet model as replacement of the Typhoon

Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:44 pm

Ozair wrote:
The UK seems to be doing all the right things to get industry involved although no involvement yet with foreign companies and countries.

UK holds Team Tempest industry day

The UK government has drawn together representatives from the across the nation's defence aerospace industry to engage on the Tempest future fighter and other aspects of the wider Future Combat Air System (FCAS).

The event, held at Farnborough on 19 March, was the first time that companies outside of the four current Team Tempest participants of BAE Systems, Leonardo UK, MBDA, and Rolls-Royce had been invited to collaborate on the concepts, technologies, and capabilities that should lead to an operational combat aircraft entering service with the Royal Air Force (RAF) in the 2030s. The Tempest will be part of wider FCAS that will include swarming unmanned aircraft and other capabilities.

With the Minister for Defence Procurement, Stuart Andrew, launching the event, some 300 delegates including subject matter experts (SMEs) and technology-led organisations were in attendance "to build connections and take part in a series of briefings outlining the capabilities and skills needed to shape the future of Combat Air System delivery in the UK", BAE Systems said.

The Tempest programme is a fundamental pillar of the Ministry of Defence's (MoD's) Combat Air Strategy announced in February last year, with GBP2 billion (USD2.65 billion) initial investment in the project announced at the 2018 Farnborough Air Show.

According to BAE Systems, which along with its three industrial partners is also working with the RAF Rapid Capabilities Office, Defence Science and Technology Laboratory (Dstl), and Defence Equipment and Support (DE&S) on the Tempest project, the industry event was followed by a classified briefing.

"The event today has set into motion a series of discussions to develop the right capabilities, the right technologies, and the right level of agility and collaborative working to meet the demands of this future acquisition programme, delivering a prosperous and sustainable sector," BAE Systems noted, although neither it nor the UK government disclosed if or when this industry day might result in contracts.

https://www.janes.com/article/87318/uk- ... dustry-day

I guess 2039 counts as "the 2030's" :lol:

Like I said before - every single contractor responsible for every element and component of this aircraft needs to leapfrog their tech and performance probably two entire generations for this thing to work. I actually think they'll be fine with engines (the EF's are pretty damn impressive) but don't have much to demonstrate with regard to other required technologies.

That'll be the difficult part - they need to get it right the first time around, without any prior experience with this level of integrated avionics, sensors, a modern & intuitive ergonomic layout, etc.
 
Ozair
Posts: 3896
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: UK unveils new Tempest fighter jet model as replacement of the Typhoon

Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:51 am

An interest suggestion by an Italian Think Tank. They suggest joining the Tempest program for a large industrial share and then attempting to merge the Tempest program with the Franco-German effort. One of the last sentences makes it pretty clear their assessment, which I would say most here agree with, that both programs remaining separate will struggle for exports and have an insufficient market.

Think tank to Italy: Join UK Tempest program, then try to merge it with Franco-German effort

A leading Italian think tank is pressuring the country to enter Britain’s Tempest fighter program as soon as possible and then push for the project to merge with a rival Franco-German effort.

The proposal by the IAI think tank in Rome comes as the Italian government deliberates over what air power it will need in the 2030s, around the time when the Tempest could take to the skies.

The British program was announced last year as France and Germany started work on their own Future Combat Air System, raising the prospect of European neighbors working, yet again, on rival aircraft, following parallel developments of the Eurofighter, Rafale and Gripen.

To avoid that, IAI stated in a paper published this week, the Tempest project, with Italy on board, “should in the midterm merge with the Franco-German project for the benefit of European defence and strategic autonomy.”

The industrial team involved in the Tempest program already includes Italy’s Leonardo, thanks to its large-scale operation in the U.K., and an Italian junior defense minister has called for Rome to become a national partner on the fighter project, although wariness over defense spending in Rome means there’s been no official commitment.


Other potential national partners include Sweden and Holland, with 2035 as a possible initial operating capability goal.

“Italy will soon have to choose one of these two sides, and a timely decision is critical in order to enable Rome to influence the crucial, initial steps of a FCAS cooperative project,” IAI warned.

The paper listed reasons why Italy would find a solid partner in the U.K., citing the fact that both have flown the Tornado and Eurofighter and are now introducing the F-35. Using a fifth-generation fighter gives “both countries a basis from which to look to the 6th-generation in military and industrial terms,” the paper said.

The authors said Italy could take a stronger role in Tempest than it would in the Franco-German project, placing Rome in a key position if the programs merged.

“In contrast, if Rome were to accept an ancillary position in the Franco–German project, it would probably be the weaker partner, whose interests could be sacrificed to make room for a future marriage with London," the paper stated.

The risk that the U.K. is about to leave the European Union without a trade deal, as Brexit negotiations falter, was a risk that did not outweigh the advantages, the paper argued.

Paris would only consider a request to enter FCAS “after the military requirements had been set up and the industrial architecture designed, with little room to accommodate Italian requests. In other words, for Italy, achieving a satisfactory compromise with Paris and joining the Franco–German project is not impossible, but it is much more difficult and unlikely in comparison with a deal with the UK,” the paper said.

Another Italian think tank, the Centre for International Studies, also put out a paper this week on the two fighter programs, and also urged Italy to join Tempest.

It predicted a difficult relationship between Paris and Berlin, given France’s need to carry nuclear weapons on the future fighter and to build a carrier version — two ambitions Germany does not share.

"Above all, it is difficult not to see in the renewed French-German partnership the willingness to cut back the role of Rome within Europe’s big defense initiatives,” the paper said.

The IAI paper went on to promote the eventual merging of the two programs.

“First, we should enter Tempest as fast as possible,” IAI analyst Michele Nones said. “The idea of merging it with FCAS is now delayed until the end of the technology development phase at the end of the next decade.

“At that point discussions can start; otherwise, if the programs remain separate, neither will have a sufficient market, and we will need to depend on an uncertain level of exports.”

Merging the two programs was also backed this week by Alessandro Profumo, the CEO of Leonardo.

“Tempest will be open to the participation of other countries,” he told Italian daily Il Sole 24 Ore. “I hope the French and Germans will join in."

https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... an-effort/
 
Elshad
Posts: 82
Joined: Wed May 23, 2018 8:24 am

Re: UK unveils new Tempest fighter jet model as replacement of the Typhoon

Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:27 pm

I think this whole Tempest thing is going to be merged with various other European projects and eventually become the replacement / “next” Eurofighter.
 
Ozair
Posts: 3896
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: UK unveils new Tempest fighter jet model as replacement of the Typhoon

Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:58 am

Elshad wrote:
I think this whole Tempest thing is going to be merged with various other European projects and eventually become the replacement / “next” Eurofighter.

The real question is whether it will be merged with the FCAS Franco-German program or not. FCAS will still have some specific requirements that none of the other partners want such as carrier capable and nuclear delivery. I could see the unmanned portion of both programs moving toward one design but at the moment, before the high level requirements have been defined, it remains unclear if the two programs will be compatible.
 
Ozair
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Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: UK unveils new Tempest fighter jet model as replacement of the Typhoon

Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:42 pm

The UK with Tempest is looking for a different model of partner engagement to previous programs. Given how often the workshare agreements fail or do no more than raise production costs with little overall benefit it shouldn't surprise.

UK to pursue new partnership model for Tempest collaboration

The UK wants to adopt a new partnership arrangement with international participants in its Tempest next-generation combat aircraft programme, in an effort to avoid the rigid workshare model employed during previous joint efforts.

“Nations need to collaborate on the strength of what they bring to a programme, with the desire for industrial and technology gains in there as a consideration, but not the primary driver,” says Sir Simon Bollom, chief executive of the UK’s Defence Equipment and Support (DE&S) organisation.

...

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... la-458870/
 
RJMAZ
Posts: 1429
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:54 am

Re: UK unveils new Tempest fighter jet model as replacement of the Typhoon

Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:45 am

I can't see how a supersonic 1000nm aircraft that the UK wants can also operate from an French aircraft carrier.

It will be very difficult for these programs to merge when they have a large size difference. It will also be difficult for all of these programs to be developed separately.

A common shared avionics package is the only option. Even shared engines would be difficult with the size difference. The french design would then be over powered and the larger U.K design underpowered.

The "stubborn French" and "anti-US Germans" will simply build a stealthy aircraft similar in size to the Rafale.

So a medium sized twin engine canard with a larger fuel fraction than the current Euro canards. Replace both the Eurofighter and Rafale with one fighter. It would be very difficult to surpass the F-35.

The F-35 is the stealthy Eurofighter replacement for the U.K. It will be very hard to match the F-35 on price and the U.K will simply buy more F-35's. The U.K will be crazy not to buy F-35 to cover all short term requirements and in the long term use the F-35 for the bulk of the force and join the 6th gen PCA program to satisfy their high end tempest requirement.

The French and Germans will not be allowed full access to the US 6th gen fighter.
 
GDB
Posts: 13191
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Re: UK unveils new Tempest fighter jet model as replacement of the Typhoon

Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:11 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
I can't see how a supersonic 1000nm aircraft that the UK wants can also operate from an French aircraft carrier.

It will be very difficult for these programs to merge when they have a large size difference. It will also be difficult for all of these programs to be developed separately.

A common shared avionics package is the only option. Even shared engines would be difficult with the size difference. The french design would then be over powered and the larger U.K design underpowered.

The "stubborn French" and "anti-US Germans" will simply build a stealthy aircraft similar in size to the Rafale.

So a medium sized twin engine canard with a larger fuel fraction than the current Euro canards. Replace both the Eurofighter and Rafale with one fighter. It would be very difficult to surpass the F-35.

The F-35 is the stealthy Eurofighter replacement for the U.K. It will be very hard to match the F-35 on price and the U.K will simply buy more F-35's. The U.K will be crazy not to buy F-35 to cover all short term requirements and in the long term use the F-35 for the bulk of the force and join the 6th gen PCA program to satisfy their high end tempest requirement.

The French and Germans will not be allowed full access to the US 6th gen fighter.


As explained numerous times further up, that is not the only reason for the project.
In any case, few expect the UK to take all of the 138 F-35's mentioned, certainly not even the LM rep I spoke to last year at an event in London, a month before the Tempest project was even unveiled.
 
RJMAZ
Posts: 1429
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Re: UK unveils new Tempest fighter jet model as replacement of the Typhoon

Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:51 am

I never put a number on F-35A's. I do not expect 138 F-35 either. I said F-35 and PCA will make up the entire U.K manned fighter fleet.

There is lots of misreporting on Tempest and Chinese whispers. All the official press release go on and on about a high level partnership. Having a fancy model doesn't mean they intend to make their own 6th gen fighter. Everyone thinks Tempest is a fighter building program but Tempest is a knowledge gaining program.

The U.K mention the workshare model of the F-35 is not what they want. Any Europe project would not be a workshare model and the U.K would be in full tech partnership. So these words are clearly targeted at the US with the PCA program.

More F-35's in the short term and PCA in 2030.
 
GDB
Posts: 13191
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: UK unveils new Tempest fighter jet model as replacement of the Typhoon

Sat Jun 15, 2019 4:54 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
I never put a number on F-35A's. I do not expect 138 F-35 either. I said F-35 and PCA will make up the entire U.K manned fighter fleet.

There is lots of misreporting on Tempest and Chinese whispers. All the official press release go on and on about a high level partnership. Having a fancy model doesn't mean they intend to make their own 6th gen fighter. Everyone thinks Tempest is a fighter building program but Tempest is a knowledge gaining program.

The U.K mention the workshare model of the F-35 is not what they want. Any Europe project would not be a workshare model and the U.K would be in full tech partnership. So these words are clearly targeted at the US with the PCA program.

More F-35's in the short term and PCA in 2030.


Chinese whispers? Misreporting? Certainly seen plenty of that on this thread.
'Everyone thinks?' Anyone in particular? Of any knowledge?
I do think you are likely partly right however, yes Tempest is certainly a knowledge building programme, but with the intention of proceeding to a combat aircraft building one, around the time the RAF (and Italian) Typhoons will need replacing. Potentially later JASDF F-15J's too (the increased buy of their F-35's will replace the remaining F4's, the F-2 fleet, some early F-15J's possibly, as well as starting a small naval strike wing).

When the ACA was unveiled in 1982, it was no more defined as an aircraft than Tempest was last year, including what partners would be on board. As mentioned above too, it endured the bust up with France, partial German pullout, the Cold War ending, Germany in and out again, yet for all of that, 20 years after a mere model at an airshow was unveiled, Typhoons were in production and being delivered. Not bad for a complex project that nearly fell apart in 1985 and 1992.
I doubt those lessons have been forgotten by those involved with Tempest,



At the start of this thread I made a point about recalling the history of the ACA/FEFA/EFA/Typhoon, not only
 
Ozair
Posts: 3896
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: UK unveils new Tempest fighter jet model as replacement of the Typhoon

Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:24 am

First international partner for the Tempest program will be Sweden according to the below news article. A good option for Sweden to get onto a program that will provide them with a true 5th gen aircraft.

I don’t see too much of a future for the Gripen E with this announcement. I also agree with the comments in the article later on pointing to a similar issue of export controls to what FCAS is facing, with Sweden significantly more adverse to exporting to countries that do not align with their global view. It does provide some interesting knowledge, potential requirements and a different perspective to the future of Tempest if Sweden/SAAB have a decent role in development.

The most important point to note though is that as more partners join both programs it likely prevents them from merging and we will again be in the situation of a European market that probably has one too many fighter aircraft for sale. This will prevent economy of scale and likely limit the ability of FCAS and Tempest to compete with US, Chinese and to a lessor extent Russian future programs.

Sweden to join British ‘Tempest’ next-gen fighter push

Sweden is set to become the first international partner to join the British “Tempest” sixth-generation fighter program.

An announcement involving the governments and industries of the two nations is expected to be made at the three-day Royal International Air Tattoo (RIAT) event, which begins July 19 at RAF Fairford, according to industry executives.

...

https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... hter-push/

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