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bikerthai
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:27 pm

Spar wrote:
It should be obvious that when Shanahan was hired in early 2017 (long before the F-15EX proposal) Shanahan was to be the technical expert in aviation matters.


Believe me, becoming a VP manager of an Aerospace Corporation, does not make you an expert in aviation. By the time you get to be VP, the relevant knowledge with advancing technology have passed you by. You do however become good at running a corporation with some knowledge of aviation, which does not necessarily help you manage the other two larger part of the Arm Forces (Navy and Army). Shanahan was hired because he's a yes man, and has the ability to manage an organization efficiently, not because he is Boeing or is necessarily an expert in aviation.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
Spar
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:47 pm

bikerthai wrote:
Shanahan was hired because he's a yes man
Shanahan was selected because of Bolton
Trump is having second thought about it
Shanahan told the rest of the Arm Force to be a political, after the McCain incident.

How do you know these things? Where do you get this kind of information?
 
Ozair
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:13 pm

bikerthai wrote:

And so was this. We know that this will not be an issue once a hypersonic missile is developed that will fit in an F-35. However we are not there yet. How long will it be till we get there?

BT why is this necessary? The F-35 has two external pylons rated to 5000 lbs. They are perfectly capable of loading anything up to a GBU-28 (if they chose to integrate it). I don't understand the logic behind restricting an F-35 to internal bay use for Hypersonics while the F-15EX has use of external pylons and no internal bay.

bikerthai wrote:
Reading between the lines I can only surmise that a fringe benefit of getting a few EX would be to get a beefed up frame with new engines that when you strip away all the excess, you can use the platform to develop the weapon. Note that in the development stage, you will have big missiles and you want to push those missile as far into the Mach envelope as possible before release. You don't want to pull the F-22 from front line duties to do these experiment. God forbid if something go wrong and you lose the airframe as well. Experimenting is dangerous.

That doesn't make a lot of sense either. Aircraft go through development and integration programs all the time. Why would the F-15 or F-35 having these missiles integrated by any different or more dangerous to any other airframe? You also only need one aircraft to undertake the trials, not a fleet and the USAF has specific airframes, and units, dedicated to doing this work.

bikerthai wrote:
For development, the F-35 would also be not useful unless Ozair can tell me that the F-35 in a clean configuration with one huge missile can hit Mach 2 without shaking apart. Isn't it true that at Mach+, its down to the shear power of your engine(s)?

The F-35 is limited to M1.6 so it isn't going M2 in its current form ever. Neither though is the F-15EX which with a large hypersonic missile payload almost certainly won't get above M2 if even near it. Frankly, the solution is to fit an additional booster on the hypersonic missile and launch them from B-52s which have the loiter time to support hypersonic missile use in a dynamic targeting environment. The F-15EX is likely to be a significant drain on A2A refuelling resources and be less flexible across the battlespace for that role type.
 
Ozair
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:16 pm

bikerthai wrote:
Spar wrote:
It should be obvious that when Shanahan was hired in early 2017 (long before the F-15EX proposal) Shanahan was to be the technical expert in aviation matters.


Believe me, becoming a VP manager of an Aerospace Corporation, does not make you an expert in aviation. By the time you get to be VP, the relevant knowledge with advancing technology have passed you by. You do however become good at running a corporation with some knowledge of aviation, which does not necessarily help you manage the other two larger part of the Arm Forces (Navy and Army). Shanahan was hired because he's a yes man, and has the ability to manage an organization efficiently, not because he is Boeing or is necessarily an expert in aviation.

bt

He also had little to do with BDS other than RW work. His knowledge of the F-15 program and the specific aircraft's capabilities would be limited at best.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:53 pm

Ozair wrote:
Aircraft go through development and integration programs all the time. Why would the F-15 or F-35 having these missiles integrated by any different or more dangerous to any other airframe?


Development and Integration occupies different part of the timeline. Launching from a B-52 and an F-15 would also occupy different part of the development time line. If you are doing a step by step progression, it is safer to use an intermediate platform after the '52 before strapping it on a '35. If what you say about the F-15 at M2 with a hypersonic missile is true, then it would be moot.. I'm not ready to dismiss that just yet :optimist:

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
Ozair
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:14 pm

bikerthai wrote:

Development and Integration occupies different part of the timeline. Launching from a B-52 and an F-15 would also occupy different part of the development time line.

That would be integration those integrations onto the platform can be done independently from each other.

bikerthai wrote:
If you are doing a step by step progression, it is safer to use an intermediate platform after the '52 before strapping it on a '35.

There is no logic to that. Having a platform in the middle of them isn't necessary, there isn't a complexity step between an F-15 and an F-35. Both platforms will be UAI compliant by the time a hypersonic missile is available and from that point the integration is just the hardpoint and drop testing.


bikerthai wrote:
If what you say about the F-15 at M2 with a hypersonic missile is true, then it would be moot.. I'm not ready to dismiss that just yet :optimist:

bt

It is clear right from the charts I posted. The EX isn't going to magically increase the capability of the airframe to bridge that gap. It will in fact likely be the heaviest Eagle to date given the additional systems going in with marginally better engines.
 
estorilm
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:35 pm

I'm so split on this thing I haven't found the energy to quantify anything with a post since they announced the go-ahead for the program.

Either way you slice it, I feel like it's still a hand-out for Boeing who had been struggling to secure contracts lately.

Are there aging C/D models out there that should be replaced ASAP as our principal (numerically-speaking) front-line air superiority fighter around the country (and indeed, the world)? Sure.. however it's almost 2020 - do we want to be replacing these aircraft with designs dating back to the '70s when the alternative is something straight out of the future? I really don't think so. This argument is compounded by the FACT (yes, I said it.. fact) that current-build F-35A's are rolling off the line cheaper than this initial batch of F-15X's is going to cost. Everyone throws development costs into the per-aircraft cost, so it's only fair that the 15X takes the same hit initially - actually it's even more fair since it's INCREDIBLY UNLIKELY that this plane sees large production numbers. Actually it's impossible.

Plus side? Okay it's got a different assembly line - which conceivably isn't maxed-out like the F-35 lines are, but WTH - it's going to take years to get any sizable number of aircraft out of Boeing's lines for our jet (and even then, that's after R&D/dev/testing schedules and delays). By then you could have dumped the same amount of money into maximizing the F-35's lines, bringing down costs for contracts that the USA (and many other countries) are already investing in, PLUS the aircraft you're trying to supplement and/or replace with this F-15X budget.

I don't even want to get into capabilities - there's a very small list of things the 15 can do better than the 35. Most people in this thread focus on utility-type missions such as ASAT and missile trucks... yet we're replacing C/D models which currently fulfill the role of air superiority fighters. In an air superiority role, these X/EX's would be shot down at an alarming ratio versus F-35's, which is my point at the end of the day. Replace the air superiority fighter with a plane that's better at it. If you need to do something else - get something else to do it, but don't keep pretending just to keep the program alive.

I'd be ALL IN 100% if the thing cost $60m or so (aka significantly cheaper than an F-35) - the price would justify the lack of capability if we could offset in numbers and flexibility - but it's just never going to happen.

I even talked to a bunch of ANG F-15 C drivers at Joint Base Andrews air show a couple months ago when we flew the Avenger in there, and they were REALLY excited about the 15X program, but were the first to admit that there isn't TOO much of a speed advantage once range (ie drop tanks) and external stores or tanks were thrown into the equation - versus the F-35. There is some advantage though.

Even got to hang out for a bit... (this thing was built the year I was born in 1984! Looked immaculate for what it's worth though.)

Image For some reason the img won't display.. http://hickoryhillwv.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/IMG_3990-e1560375330681.jpg
 
Spar
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:28 pm

estorilm wrote:
Are there aging C/D models out there that should be replaced ASAP as our principal (numerically-speaking) front-line air superiority fighter around the country (and indeed, the world)? Sure..

Not really ASAP. They have seven or eight years left in them before they age out so to speak.

No hurry.

Another thing. They don't all have to get the same treatment. Possibly a few squadrons could get new wings etc and the rest converted to F-35.
 
estorilm
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:23 pm

Spar wrote:
estorilm wrote:
Are there aging C/D models out there that should be replaced ASAP as our principal (numerically-speaking) front-line air superiority fighter around the country (and indeed, the world)? Sure..

Not really ASAP. They have seven or eight years left in them before they age out so to speak.

No hurry.

Another thing. They don't all have to get the same treatment. Possibly a few squadrons could get new wings etc and the rest converted to F-35.

True, but why dump money into them at all - keep the serviceable aircraft flying and replace the rest with F-35's - that's my point.

"Worst case" you can replace them with some with F-15X's - but my issue with this approach is that it essentially doesn't address everyone's excuse or reasoning since they won't come on-line in time to replace the "desperately needed" aircraft. So what are we doing instead? Everything - repairing current C/Ds, continuing less-than-optimal production rates of the F-35 (costing $$$) AND embarking on a NEW fighter program that offers neither production advantages (talking only a few aircraft for the first year or so) nor cost advantages (for the hundredth time, this thing is NOT going to come in cheaper than a mature F-35A costs today - even though it's significantly less capable and less survivable as well!)

Mark my words, by the time we reach any sort of respectable or even remotely sustainable production rate of the F-15X/EX, it'll be canned since it's obsolete (which, honestly.. it is) - we have other aircraft to serve as missile-trucks. Or throw pylons on F-35A's instead, they have nearly the same 20,000lb payload in this config. The difference is that if you reconfig and strip them down, the same exact aircraft is ALSO a 5th gen / first-strike premier fighter/attack platform for the highest-threat environments in the world.

So where does that leave us? I guess with this bizarre ASAT mission a'netters keep bringing up. Yes we're going to spend billions developing a new model for ASAT - something an SM-3/ Aegis destroyer can accomplish, or likely a B-52.

Again - just doesn't make sense to me. The only thing I'm left with is the USAF (err US govt, since the USAF has publicly stated it doesn't want this plane) throwing Boeing a (nother) bone.
 
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:01 pm

estorilm wrote:
Spar wrote:
Possibly a few squadrons could get new wings etc and the rest converted to F-35.
why dump money into them at all .
Flexibility. It may be that by 2040 some NG units may be converted to another type and would never need the F-35. It's just a option to be considered.
estorilm wrote:
"Worst case" you can replace them with some with F-15X's.
That is the worst case. The EX costs 70 million more than a re-winged C model and has effectively zero added capability. There is no logical reason to build an F-15EX.
estorilm wrote:
So what are we doing instead? Everything - repairing current C/Ds, continuing less-than-optimal production rates of the F-35 (costing $$$) AND embarking on a NEW fighter program that offers neither production advantages.
The current DoD plan doesn't include SLEPing the current F-15s. In fact, all the propaganda articles we see in the DoD/Boeing favorable media don't even mention that as a possibility. That's been swept under the rug.
estorilm wrote:
Mark my words, by the time we reach any sort of respectable or even remotely sustainable production rate of the F-15X/EX, it'll be canned since it's obsolete.
And that can happen just weeks after the next president is sworn in in 2021. We could wind up stuck with one point one billion dollar's worth of odd ball F-15s without any purpose whatsoever. And an expensive contract with Boeing that has to be cancelled.
estorilm wrote:
So where does that leave us? I guess with this bizarre ASAT mission a'netters keep bringing up. Yes we're going to spend billions developing a new model for ASAT - something an SM-3/ Aegis destroyer can accomplish, or likely a B-52.
It was me that fed the latest longest discussion about ASAT. What I came out of that with is that while the SM-3 really isn't up to the job if we wanted to actually knock down someone else's sat network, there is nothing that indicates that the F-15EX is meant to be a part of an actual offensive ASAT capability. Same with the hypersonic missile delivery. It also doesn't seem reasonable to think that the national Guard would be given these kinds of missions; and anyway, why couldn't the F-35 do either of these jobs?
 
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:05 pm

keesje wrote:
Well, Shanahan overcame a major hurdle when an internal ethics investigation cleared him of allegations that he promoted his former employer, Boeing, and disparaged its competitors in official discussions. He probably will be careful now.


I still feel that’s the case and honestly I think this finding shows just how much power is being concentrated in one particular office of one particular branch associated with one particularly alledgedly elected individual. But that is neither here nor there.
Stop the stupids!- Claus Kellerman
 
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bikerthai
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:28 pm

Well, Shanahan is out. We will see if the F-15EX buy have any legs.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:10 pm

The Senate just passed the defense bill. Not much mentioning of any difference with the House bill with respect to the F-15X. So, it looks like unless the additional evaluation requested by the House goes south . . . we will wait for the contract signing.

Coincidently ? ? ? The Israeli just submitted an RFI for some F-15X.

bt
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Ozair
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:44 pm

bikerthai wrote:
The Senate just passed the defense bill. Not much mentioning of any difference with the House bill with respect to the F-15X. So, it looks like unless the additional evaluation requested by the House goes south . . . we will wait for the contract signing.


bt


The bill went through with broad support, 86-8.

US Senate passes its defense policy bill 86-8, setting up fight with House

The Air Force specific requests including 16 additional F-35s as well as the eight F-15Xs but the short funding on the F-15X remains.


...

It authorizes $10 billion for 94 fifth-generation Joint Strike Fighter aircraft, adding 16 to the administration’s request, while buying eight fourth-generation F-15X aircraft for $948 million, shorting the administration’s F-15X request by $162 million. It also authorizes $2.8 billion for 15 KC-46A aircraft, or three more.

...

https://www.defensenews.com/congress/20 ... ith-house/

bikerthai wrote:
Coincidently ? ? ? The Israeli just submitted an RFI for some F-15X.


Let's be fair BT, they also requested additional F-35s...

Israel Issues RFI For Boeing F-15X

The Israeli Defense Ministry has issued an RFI for the Boeing F-15X and is simultaneously seeking data about additional Lockheed Martin F-35s. Affording both fighters may be problematic. The Israeli Air Force (IAF) wants to add one squadron of Boeing F-15Xs and also buy an additional squadron of Lockheed Martin F-35s. The two types will be equipped with some Israeli-developed systems. The F-15X will carry more of these, as access to its baseline systems is easier than on the ...

https://aviationweek.com/awindefense/is ... eing-f-15x

Of course nothing much has changed since May when they said the same thing. Makes sense for Israel to top up the F-15 fleet given how they use the aircraft although if the F-35 drop tanks and conformals are brought into service it will significantly extend the range advantage the F-35 likely already has over the F-15X.

https://aviationweek.com/awindefense/is ... more-f-35s
 
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bikerthai
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:52 pm

Ozair wrote:
US Senate passes its defense policy bill 86-8, setting up fight with House


More like a haggle :chat: The Air Force will get their 15'. It's just a question of how many.

Ozair wrote:
Let's be fair BT, they also requested additional F-35s...


An once the Air Force contract is signed, the Israeli will follow. They will probably get the additional 35s as well.

The Iranian crisis will be another excuse to facilitate the buy.
bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
Ozair
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:06 pm

bikerthai wrote:
An once the Air Force contract is signed, the Israeli will follow. They will probably get the additional 35s as well.

The Iranian crisis will be another excuse to facilitate the buy.
bt

Likely, especially if Iranian bunkers and underground nuclear facilities are probable targets then GBU-28 equipped F-15s makes a lot of sense.
 
Spar
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:31 pm

bikerthai wrote:
The Air Force will get their 15'.

When referring to the Air Force, it's not "their" F-15's.
If you're going to use that kind of wording, then they are the DoD's F-15's.

The DoD is where the request for these F-15's comes from, not the Air Force.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:43 pm

LOL, if that's the case, then the '35 belongs to the DOD as well. And those C-17 that was foisted upon the Air Force a while back belonged to Congress as the Air Force never asked for them.

But you have something there. All these planes do not belong to the Air Force or DOD. They belong to the tax payer. Whether the Air Force wants them or not.

bt
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Spar
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:39 pm

bikerthai wrote:
LOL, if that's the case, then the '35 belongs to the DOD as well. And those C-17 that was foisted upon the Air Force a while back belonged to Congress as the Air Force never asked for them.

But you have something there. All these planes do not belong to the Air Force or DOD. They belong to the tax payer. Whether the Air Force wants them or not.

bt

Anything to obfuscate the issue?
 
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bikerthai
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:20 pm

Spar wrote:
Anything to obfuscate the issue?


Yup, just like Alice. Don't go down that rabnit hole if you don't like where it leads. Or don't peer through the looking glass if you don't like what you see. :biggrin:
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
Spar
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Sun Jun 30, 2019 5:42 pm

bikerthai wrote:
Spar wrote:
Anything to obfuscate the issue?


Yup, just like Alice. Don't go down that rabnit hole if you don't like where it leads. Or don't peer through the looking glass if you don't like what you see. :biggrin:

More gibberish.

The simple fact you're trying to cloud over is that the Air Force didn't see any need for the F-15EX until they were ordered to accept them. The F-15EX buy originated in the Pentagon, not from the Air Force. This has been discussed numerous times up thread.

I await your next attempt at "clever".
 
Ozair
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:47 pm

Spar wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
Spar wrote:
Anything to obfuscate the issue?


Yup, just like Alice. Don't go down that rabnit hole if you don't like where it leads. Or don't peer through the looking glass if you don't like what you see. :biggrin:

More gibberish.

The simple fact you're trying to cloud over is that the Air Force didn't see any need for the F-15EX until they were ordered to accept them. The F-15EX buy originated in the Pentagon, not from the Air Force. This has been discussed numerous times up thread.

I await your next attempt at "clever".

Spar we all know that. In the end who wanted them and who didn't won't matter. What will matter is how the USAF use them and whether the fleet will grow to the size anticipated.

Anything beyond that is just petty arguments over semantics.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Mon Jul 01, 2019 11:32 am

:yes:
Ozair wrote:
Anything beyond that is just petty arguments over semantics.


What he said . . . :yes:
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Spar
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Mon Jul 01, 2019 4:31 pm

Ozair wrote:
Anything beyond that is just petty arguments over semantics.

You may chose to portray the above as semantics, but it appears to me that that some here are determined to leave a false impression about where the request for these aircraft came from. I'm just correcting the record and this is a thread about the F-15EX after all.

If correcting the record for the casual, one time reader of this forum is 'petty", that renders the whole of the forum "petty". And if that's the case, why do you spend so much effort here?
 
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bikerthai
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:30 pm

Spar wrote:
You may chose to portray the above as semantics, but it appears to me that that some here are determined to leave a false impression about where the request for these aircraft came from. I'm just correcting the record and this is a thread about the F-15EX after all.


For the record . . . when I said "The Air Force will get their 15' ", I meant that the Air Force will own the planes and not that they wanted the planes. Your interpretation that I meant the Air Force requested the plane would be have been based on your own pre-conception of my opinion. My opinion is neither here nor there nor relevant to whether Congress will buy the planes.

For my part, I thought that you would know this already and is just playing games with semantics. Thus you have just followed me down that rabbit hole. You can always just ignore these off-topic comments and stick with the technical discussion.

Thus is the way of these chat forums . . .

bt
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Ozair
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:40 pm

Spar wrote:
You may chose to portray the above as semantics, but it appears to me that that some here are determined to leave a false impression about where the request for these aircraft came from. I'm just correcting the record and this is a thread about the F-15EX after all.

As BT made clear, there is no subliminal agenda to confuse people on why the EX has been ordered.

Spar wrote:
If correcting the record for the casual, one time reader of this forum is 'petty", that renders the whole of the forum "petty".

That makes no sense but go right ahead if that is what you want to do.

Spar wrote:
why do you spend so much effort here?

Military aviation was a hobby, then a career and now again a hobby, hence I enjoy what I learn here, what I can contribute and what we discuss.
 
Spar
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:08 pm

Ozair wrote:
Spar wrote:
You may chose to portray the above as semantics, but it appears to me that that some here are determined to leave a false impression about where the request for these aircraft came from. I'm just correcting the record and this is a thread about the F-15EX after all.

As BT made clear, there is no subliminal agenda to confuse people on why the EX has been ordered.
OK, take away the word "subliminal" then.
All bikerthai made clear is that the both of you say that bikerthai's poor choice of wording was not intended to confuse people. I never doubted that would be the case.

Ozair wrote:
Spar wrote:
If correcting the record for the casual, one time reader of this forum is 'petty", that renders the whole of the forum "petty".
That makes no sense but go right ahead if that is what you want to do.
I already have, in post #667.

Ozair wrote:
Spar wrote:
why do you spend so much effort here?
Military aviation was a hobby, then a career and now again a hobby, hence I enjoy what I learn here, what I can contribute and what we discuss.
You cut my sentence in half, which of course removed its context. The question was "if that's the case, why do you spend so much effort here?". It was a rhetorical question. I know better than to ask anonymous people in the internet their reasons for posting.

This ridiculous conversation began from a small thing, an innuendo seeming to imply that the United States Air Force requested a plane which they in fact did not request; it begged for correction and that's what I did - in post #667. The amount of pushback on that simple attempt at clarification has become absurd. Now it's beginning to look like the intent is to turn this exchange into a pissing match so that the mods take it all down. And it would be fine with me if they did take everything after post# 667 down.
 
Ozair
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:07 pm

bikerthai wrote:
An once the Air Force contract is signed, the Israeli will follow. They will probably get the additional 35s as well.

The Iranian crisis will be another excuse to facilitate the buy.
bt

The plot thickens BT, there can be only one…

Crunch Time For Israeli Air Force: F-15X Or F-35?

Last month, the defense ministry issued official inquiries into acquiring both aircraft -- but, for now, the budget can buy only one.

Just like the US, Israel is wrestling with whether to buy Lockheed’s all-new, stealthy F-35s or the latest upgrade of Boeing’s long-serving F-15. But Israel must make this decision under extraordinary external and internal pressure. From without, it must conduct airstrikes on Iranian-linked targets in Syria amidst rising tensions with Iran. From within, it must find funding despite a growing budget deficit and an embattled Netanyahu government headed for its second general election in five months this September.

“A decision and an acquisition must start now,” an Israeli senior source told Breaking Defense. Ideally, the Israeli Air Force wants a squadron of each type, at $2.5 to $3 billion apiece. (In contrast to the debate in the US, the Israelis don’t see any significant difference in the two airplanes’ operations and maintenance costs). But practically, given the tight budget, the IAF has to choose which fighter to buy first and which to delay for several years.



https://breakingdefense.com/2019/07/cru ... x-or-f-35/

If I was betting on the result then I expect it will go F-15X for the first order and then more F-35 at some point afterwards primarily based on the fact the F-35 will be in production for significantly longer. The other side of the coin though, and mentioned in the article, is the fact the Israelis have already operated the F-35 very effectively and achieved some impressive results.

The F-15X likely won’t be available in the same timeframe as the F-35 so if they wanted to have these in placesoon that may be a factor.
 
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:03 pm

Ozair wrote:

The simple fact you're trying to cloud over is that the Air Force didn't see any need for the F-15EX until they were ordered to accept them.


Ok for starters I know this is Spar’s quote but I can’t properly quote you. What the heck A.net?

But my point being, regardless who wants them the critical differences between F-15C/X and F-15E/X are enough to shift it from a dumb waste of money to one worth the investment. I’ve made it clear earlier so I won’t repeat myself.

But I want to emphasize I think it’s worth the cost of upgrading a significant portion of the current Mud Hen fleet to the same standard. The C fleet and whatever Mud Hens that miss the boat can be retired to fund it. Hell retire lots of Vipers if you have to. Early retirement of the Bone fleet.

I mean it. The Mud Hen is a good, enduring/legacy-quality bomb truck as it is and has a better future than the Bone. Not to mention the least, very capable of CONUS defense. Features beyond just a second seat make that practical.
Stop the stupids!- Claus Kellerman
 
Ozair
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:35 pm

SuperiorPilotMe wrote:

Ok for starters I know this is Spar’s quote but I can’t properly quote you. What the heck A.net?

Ha, no worries, fixed it for you.
Spar wrote:

The simple fact you're trying to cloud over is that the Air Force didn't see any need for the F-15EX until they were ordered to accept them.



SuperiorPilotMe wrote:
But my point being, regardless who wants them the critical differences between F-15C/X and F-15E/X are enough to shift it from a dumb waste of money to one worth the investment. I’ve made it clear earlier so I won’t repeat myself.

But I want to emphasize I think it’s worth the cost of upgrading a significant portion of the current Mud Hen fleet to the same standard. The C fleet and whatever Mud Hens that miss the boat can be retired to fund it. Hell retire lots of Vipers if you have to. Early retirement of the Bone fleet.

I mean it. The Mud Hen is a good, enduring/legacy-quality bomb truck as it is and has a better future than the Bone. Not to mention the least, very capable of CONUS defense. Features beyond just a second seat make that practical.

The F-15Es are already being upgraded. They all are receiving the APG-82 radar, EPAWSS and new mission computers. They could do with a display upgrade but that probably isn’t essential. They will obviously be a lead candidate for carriage of hypersonic missiles for the USAF just like they are the lead on a host of other weapons integrations such as SDB and lead for the UAI upgrade.

The thing to note is the F-15EXs won’t be doing A2G missions even though the airframes are capable of it. The USAF has made it clear their intention is to run them as replacement A2A CONUS defence only. Doesn’t mean they can’t have an A2G role added later but the cost balance of bringing them into ANG units is hinged on no more additional training than is necessary. A better option might actually be to give the F-15Es to the ANG units and role the F-15EXs into the frontline USAF but that would likely also cost more and bring down F-15E units while they convert.
 
Ozair
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:45 am

The Administration is protesting the reduction in funding placed on the F-15EX as well as it’s designation as a major-subprogram by the House Armed Services Committee. Will be interesting to see where this goes as the President has to sign H.R 2500 for it to be executed and at the moment this issue, amongst a large number of others in the document, will likely not be signed by Trump. A compromise could be reached and I get the feeling the F-15EX is a lower priority compared to some of the other reductions in H.R 2500, such as reduced NGAD funding, prevention of low yield sub launched nukes, reduction in the powers to declare a wartime emergency and no use of DoD funds for the border wall.

STATEMENT OF ADMINISTRATION POLICY
H.R. 2500 – National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2020


F-15EX Aircraft Program (Section 123). The Administration objects to section 123, which would designate the F-15EX as a major subprogram of the F-15. The designation as a major subprogram would needlessly delay the fielding of the F-15EX by an estimated two years while providing only marginal decision-making value to the Milestone Decision Authority given the F15EX high level of technology readiness. The delays would exacerbate capacity issues within the tactical aircraft portfolio, prevent the execution of key nonrecurring engineering and manufacturing activities, and require operating the less capable F-15C/D longer with its significant structural issues and high cost. The Administration objects to the proposed limitation on procuring only two F-15EX prototypes, and requests full funding for the first eight F-15EX aircraft.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/u ... R-2500.pdf
 
Spar
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:53 am

So as I understand it, the House armed services committee has pulled half the funding for the first batch of F-15EX's and in so doing has killed the program because only four planes could be funded as things stand.

Is that correct?

Where can information on this topic be found that is not behind a paywall?
 
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DL717
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:11 am

Oh for the love of God. The 22 is the 15 replacement and the 35 is the 16 replacement. The roll of the fighter jet has changed dramatically, so much so that you don’t need as many. Though I wish they would have made more 22’s. Both the 22 and 35 are budgetary nightmares. Colossal eff up in that area.

Could have saved a fortune with all of them being STOVL as a single program, but those damn sailors want their tail hooks.
Welcome to Nothingburgers. May I take your order?
 
Spar
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:40 am

DL717 wrote:
Oh for the love of God. The 22 is the 15 replacement and the 35 is the 16 replacement.

That was the plan about 20 years ago, but things haven't worked out that way.

The F-22 has turned into something of a white elephant. The cost overruns in its manufacture caused the program to be terminated before it could actually be the replacement for the F-15s and the cost of maintenance will be the reason the F-22 program will be terminated as soon as enough F-35s become available to take over the whole of the air defense role.

It has taken a while, but the F-35 has excelled at everything that was expected of it, including air to air. The F-22's close in dogfighting performance is an asset that carries less and less weight as time goes on. And it's super cruise turns out to be of limited value too. The F-35 can match anything a F-22 can do because it carries the same amount of fuel and has only one engine to feed. It can use its afterburner to get equal dash capability.

F-22 is the past, F-35 is the future.
 
Ozair
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:42 am

Spar wrote:
So as I understand it, the House armed services committee has pulled half the funding for the first batch of F-15EX's and in so doing has killed the program because only four planes could be funded as things stand.

Is that correct?

The House Armed Services Committee did not fund the F-15EX budget request in full and mandated additional program oversight. This is the reduction previously posted in the thread where the F-15EX acquisition was recommended to not be fully funded to the USAF 2020 budget request.

To be clear the program has not been killed. Congress have simply mandated no more than two prototypes can be built and that the Air Force has to provide a suite of documentation before the program funding can be used. Essentially the House wants to know what the plan is and how the program will be implemented before they allow any funding out the door.

Spar wrote:
Where can information on this topic be found that is not behind a paywall?

Generally you need to do some legwork and google searches, that is the way I find most of the info I post.

You can read the bill text here, https://rules.house.gov/sites/democrats ... 116-19.pdf in section 123.

The text is below but the formatting and pasting from the original document is poor so read the original at the link above.
SEC. 123. F–15EX AIRCRAFT PROGRAM. 9 (a) DESIGNATION OF MAJOR SUBPROGRAM.—In ac10 cordance with section 2430a of title 10, United States 11 Code, the Secretary of Defense shall designate the F– 12 15EX program as a major subprogram of the F–15 air13 craft program. 14 (b) LIMITATION.—Except as provided in subsection 15 (c), none of the funds authorized to be appropriated by 16 this Act or otherwise made available for fiscal year 2020 17 for the Air Force may be obligated or expended to procure 18 an F–15EX aircraft until a period of 30 days has elapsed 19 following the date on which the Secretary of the Air Force 20 submits to the congressional defense committees the fol21 lowing documentation relating to the F–15EX program: 22 (1) A program acquisition strategy. 23 (2) An acquisition program baseline. 24 (3) A test and evaluation master plan. 25 (4) A life-cycle sustainment plan. 26 (5) A post-production fielding strategy.
(c) EXCEPTION FOR PRODUCTION OF PROTO2 TYPES.— 3 (1) IN GENERAL.—Notwithstanding subsection 4 (b), the Secretary of the Air Force may use the 5 funds described in paragraph (2) to develop, 6 produce, and test not more than two prototypes of 7 the F–15EX aircraft. 8 (2) FUNDS DESCRIBED.—The funds described 9 in this paragraph are funds authorized to be appro10 priated by this Act or otherwise made available for 11 fiscal year 2020 for the Air Force for any of the fol12 lowing: 13 (A) Research and development, non14 recurring engineering. 15 (B) Aircraft procurement.
 
Spar
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:50 am

Ozair wrote:
To be clear the program has not been killed.

They've gone from 8 planes to 2 planes.

No it's not dead.

Yet.

But It will be.

It was a farce from day one.

Good riddance to Shanahan's graft.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:54 am

Those embedded numbers makes it difficult to read. Ozair do you interpret the wording as they have the go ahead for the 2 prototype? But funding for the rest will depend on the required follow up report?
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
Ozair
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:06 pm

bikerthai wrote:
Those embedded numbers makes it difficult to read. Ozair do you interpret the wording as they have the go ahead for the 2 prototype? But funding for the rest will depend on the required follow up report?

Correct, the two will happen no matter what. The rest are contingent on the document suite being delivered. I don't forsee too many issues there either, the material requested is very straight forward.
 
estorilm
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:57 pm

DL717 wrote:
Could have saved a fortune with all of them being STOVL as a single program, but those damn sailors want their tail hooks.


That was never an option - the capabilities of a STOVL-only F-35 would be rather unimpressive (as an entire program).

When people cite performance statistics, load-out, range, etc they are doing so with the F-35A in mind. Not to mention there's a MASSIVE price gap between the A and the B for example (the lift-fan system is incredibly complicated).

Land-based USAF wings with 11,000' runways don't need to lug around the STOVL crap, reduce payload and range, and dramatically increase maintenance costs. However this also allows them to have an integrated cannon, for example.

There was never any way around having different variants of the aircraft. Likewise, the Charlie version is really required for adequate carrier landing handling characteristics and loiter time - not to mention they can integrate other changes (corrosion resistance, repetitive stress and landing considerations) which cost significant amounts of money, but aren't required on the other variants.

It's just an expensive plane is all.
 
checksixx
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:40 pm

Spar wrote:
The cost overruns in its manufacture caused the program to be terminated before it could actually be the replacement for the F-15s and the cost of maintenance will be the reason the F-22 program will be terminated as soon as enough F-35s become available to take over the whole of the air defense role.


To be honest, anyone that thinks the F-22's are going to go away, has no real grasp on how the service and DoD feel about it. It's not going anywhere. They will keep them flying as long as they can.

As an aside...the F-22 "program" was terminated long ago.
 
Ozair
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:42 pm

Some more commentary from a retired USAF General on the decision to acquire F-15Exs over F-35s. I’ve only quoted the relevant bits and have excluded the points regarding the F-22.

By buying F-15 jets, Pentagon leaders are repeating past mistakes

If the Pentagon or Congress needs a refresher on the impact of not preparing for future threats, they should look no farther than the F-22 program. That decision to end production early handcuffed Air Force recapitalization efforts and weakened capacity at the very time adversaries were drawing up plans to close the gap with Western forces.

...

With Patrick Shanahan withdrawing as the defense secretary nominee, Pentagon leaders have the opportunity to set the record right. New leaders must signal that continuing to invest in aircraft lacking the capability to survive in the 21st century is repeating an egregious mistake and is cannibalizing the F-35 production capacity already in place.

Congress must increase its funding of the free world’s one and only fifth-generation fighter jet in production today to allow the United States to remain ahead of its adversaries. Anything short of that is a potentially deadly mistake that we cannot afford to make.

https://www.defensenews.com/opinion/com ... -mistakes/

Gen Corley, who authored the article, has a pretty good record and experience to comment on the issue including cockpit time in A-10s and F-15s while also being the Commander of Air Combat Command before his retirement.
 
Ozair
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:26 am

Some clear reasons why going with the F-15EX is not a good idea, the same that have resonated here for a while. The article doesn’t address the near term availability constraints which appear to form much of the justification for the EX buy but it is clear that few consider the EX acquisition a good idea with respect to future capability.

The Case for Fifth-Generation and NGAD Airpower

The United States Air Force today is operating a fighter aircraft inventory on the brink of disaster. Most of the service’s air superiority jets were designed at the conclusion of the Vietnam War, produced in the 1980s, and are ill-suited to meet future threats. Making the situation worse, aircraft such as the F-15C Eagle will wear out their basic structural integrity in the early- to mid-2020s. An immediate change in defense policy and resourcing is required to restore this critical component of US military capability and capacity, made even more urgent given the objectives of the new National Defense Strategy and real-world security challenges.  

...

Because fourth-generation fighters have been dubbed “good enough” for the last 30 years, the vast improvements provided by fifth-generation technologies are not sufficiently understood by policymakers. Modernization has incrementally increased the capabilities of fourth-generation aircraft through improvements in sensors, displays, pods, and increased processing. Yet, fourth- generation aircraft, even with advanced avionics modifications like those on the F-15EX, are simply not survivable against modern threats.

These airplanes lack three critical attributes:  

All-aspect stealth and superior aerodynamic performance 
Advanced automated sensors and information fusion  
The synergy of stealth, fused information, and integrated automated processing. 

...

While each military service will need new capabilities and capacities to fulfill their obligations, none of those investments will matter if the Air Force is unable to provide the airpower foundation upon which joint combat operations depend. America must now have the resolve to rebuild its Air Force to be able to defeat advanced adversaries as outlined in the National Defense Strategy. The following actions are prudent means to accomplish this objective:  

Ensure fifth-generation aircraft and NGAD receive top priority for finite budget resources. Procuring F-15EXs cannot come at the cost of these essential modernization programs  
Increase the F-35A production rate to 80 aircraft per year beginning in fiscal year 2021 
Reduce the ratio of fourth- to fifth-generation fighters from 82/18 to 50/50 as rapidly as possible 
Encourage allies to buy fifth-generation aircraft  
Eliminate “aircraft unit cost” as a decision metric on programs and replace it with a “cost-per-effect” model 
Replace the simplistic cost-per-flying-hour metric with the more holistic metric of total annual cost per aircraft. 

http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineArch ... power.aspx

The article is a subset of the following published by the Mitchell Institute in April this year, http://www.mitchellaerospacepower.org/
 
Spar
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:58 am

Ozair wrote:
Some clear reasons why going with the F-15EX is not a good idea, the same that have resonated here for a while .............


After all the insult, innuendo, deflection and half truths over the last couple of pages, I have to point out how the winds have changed.

From a month ago.
Ozair wrote:
In the end the F-15EX buy is likely the best option based on the funding available and the operational readiness requirement ..............
 
Ozair
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:14 am

Spar wrote:
Ozair wrote:
Some clear reasons why going with the F-15EX is not a good idea, the same that have resonated here for a while .............


After all the insult, innuendo, deflection and half truths over the last couple of pages, I have to point out how the winds have changed.

From a month ago.
Ozair wrote:
In the end the F-15EX buy is likely the best option based on the funding available and the operational readiness requirement ..............

Spar, how about you take some time and read the entire thread. I am 100% against buying the F-15EX compared to upping the production rate of the F-35 and replacing existing USAF 4th gen airframes with the F-35 ASAP.

What you seem to miss is the ability to objectively look at a set of data and evaluate valid conclusions from that data. While I 100% disagree with the buy of F-15EX, I can use my objectivity to understand why the USAF is doing this. It doesn’t mean I agree with it, it just means I understand their rationale and justification for it. Despite effort by me and others here you don’t grasp the constraints and resource limitations the USAF have and why they have to make decisions like this. We don’t have to like the USAF decision but it is not difficult to understand why the USAF are making it.
 
Spar
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:34 am

Ozair wrote:
Spar, how about you take some time and read the entire thread. I am 100% against buying the F-15EX compared to upping the production rate of the F-35 and replacing existing USAF 4th gen airframes with the F-35 ASAP.

What you seem to miss is the ability to objectively look at a set of data and evaluate valid conclusions from that data. While I 100% disagree with the buy of F-15EX, I can use my objectivity to understand why the USAF is doing this. It doesn’t mean I agree with it, it just means I understand their rationale and justification for it. Despite effort by me and others here you don’t grasp the constraints and resource limitations the USAF have and why they have to make decisions like this. We don’t have to like the USAF decision but it is not difficult to understand why the USAF are making it.

Yet another condescending deflection from reality. As has been an ongoing topic here, the F-15EX was not an Air Force decision, it was a DoD decision: a Hanahan decision. Now with Hanahan gone the "decision" is reversed. There is no complex "set of data" to "objectively" look at.

Toadies were against it, until they were for it, and now following the wishes of officialdom, they are against it once again.
 
SuperiorPilotMe
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:05 am

Well I just find it interesting with SHanahan (with an S) gone now all of a sudden we have two seaters floated.

As for this being a Boeing handout...after the trainer win? After MX win, and barely having to demonstrate a prototype? After a huge tanker win? If I haven’t made it obvious before I don’t trust how anything from the Trump Administration smells (notwithstanding the Obama era tanker decision.) Boeing as it is already has enough money from a virtual airliner monopoly. That’s the larger issue, monopolies and dualopolies in most if not all industrial sectors
Last edited by SuperiorPilotMe on Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
Stop the stupids!- Claus Kellerman
 
Spar
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:09 am

SuperiorPilotMe wrote:
Well I just find it interesting with SHanahan (with an S) gone now all of a sudden we have two seaters floated.

Tell us about these floating two seaters.
 
SuperiorPilotMe
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:11 am

Spar wrote:
SuperiorPilotMe wrote:
Well I just find it interesting with SHanahan (with an S) gone now all of a sudden we have two seaters floated.

Tell us about these floating two seaters.


It’s an expression you bloomin utter genius, as in the idea or proposal being floated.

Mother of Christ Airliners.net intelligence strikes again.
Stop the stupids!- Claus Kellerman
 
Spar
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:23 am

SuperiorPilotMe wrote:
Mother of Christ Airliners.net intelligence strikes again.

I wouldn't talk if I were as thick as you.

Are you going to come up with a link or a story or something so that we know what you're talking about?
 
Ozair
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:42 am

Spar wrote:
Yet another condescending deflection from reality. As has been an ongoing topic here, the F-15EX was not an Air Force decision, it was a DoD decision: a Hanahan decision. Now with Hanahan gone the "decision" is reversed. There is no complex "set of data" to "objectively" look at.

Actually Spar, again you demonstrate your inability to review a set of data and draw a valid conclusion from it… From FlightGlobal in March where they quoted Congressional Testimony.

"Our challenge was when you look at the force structure that we have there were four fourth-[generation] airplanes – F-16, F-15E, A-10 and F-15C – that we need to fly in [the] 2030s. The F-15C is not going to make it. It is old and it is not going to fly past the mid-20s,” USAF chief of staff General David Goldfein said in testimony to the US Senate Appropriations Committee on 13 March.

"We used the best cost estimate that we had at the time and looked at the various options. The most affordable options – as long as we keep the F-35 absolutely on track with our programme of record – was to look at an F-15 variant to replace the F-15C."

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ix-456480/

Goldfein, the USAF Chief of Staff (in case you don’t know the guy who is in charge of the USAF…) said we looked at it, we did the cost estimations. He made it very clear that (while I fully acknowledge the suggestion was made by the US DoD itself) the USAF investigated the acquisition and came to the conclusion it was the right thing for them to do. He did not say in congressional testimony that the US DoD made him do it. He could have easily taken that opportunity given he is an outspoken advocate for the F-35 as shown below…
Ultimately, Goldfein says the F-15EX cannot fully substitute for the F-35A, which he prizes for its stealth, as well as its sensor fusion: the ability to gather and distribute information to other aircraft.
"The F-15 will never be the F-35," he says. "It wasn’t designed to be."


Do you actually know who Goldfein is? He as a LTCOL was shot down over Serbia in his F-16 and thankfully successfully rescued. He knows more than anyone else what it is like to fly a 4th gen aircraft and be targeted by SAMs.

So let us be clear then, when the USAF Chief of Staff says “we” he is clearly talking about the USAF, not the US DoD that has apparently foisted it upon him. Goldfein and the USAF made the determination it was what they needed to do but has made it clear all along it is not what they want to do. A need and a want are clearly two different things, one fits within the cost structure available to the USAF and the other doesn't.

That is where this sits. No one cares that the US DoD and Shanahan may have initially suggested/stated/demanded it to the USAF, Shanahan is gone, Mattis is gone. Surely it is time to get past the petty semantics and understand why they made the decision and not remonstrate over a literally useless trivial point.

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