Raptormodeller
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:07 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
seahawk wrote:

The F-35 is the first fighter aircraft to have significant body lift.


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Ozair
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:41 pm

seahawk wrote:
Then you sent up one of the spares that would always ready in a conflict. And if the drag is higher you need to tank more often, but still less often than 6 fighters.

Surely 2 F-15 can not cover as much area as 6 F-16s, but for the same area covered they could carry more weapons. As I said it is a capability with some appeal, not a game changer or something the USAF needs to have, especially as you could develop the Beast mode for the F-35 which would then carry 14 missiles. But probably with more drag than the F-15.

Flying around with 22 missiles on your airframe is far more than simply requiring to tank more often. The aircraft would likely struggle to reach supersonic speeds with that loadout which also impacts the tactical fight, how they engage, how they position themselves for the intercept, what support they can provide to their wingman and vice versa.

The issue is almost never about the number of weapons an aircraft has anyway. Russian Flankers flying in Syria, while capable of 10+ missile loadouts, never flew with more than 6. The drag issue is too great, the missiles have total wing hours and tactically the aircraft is usually never able to prosecute that many targets in the timeframe available. In the same way we only ever see US aircraft flying with max AAM loadouts for photo shoots if the US procured the F-15X we can be almost certain the aircraft would never fly with that loadout, it is just too tactically limiting.
 
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seahawk
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:53 am

Why would you fly with a full load over Syria, when you do not expect to fight any dogfights and just arm for self defence. The same with CAP over the US, when you expect Cessnas or hijacked airliners, you do not need many missiles.

But I thought the USAF is getting ready for conflict with a near peer enemy, like China and there the outlook is imho different. There cruise missile attacks with 20+ missiles are realistic as are enemy formation of more than 20 fighters. And considering how they mount the AAMs on the F-15 the belly mounted ones won´t be that draggy, so you would probably only drop the quad packs and end up with 14 missiles in a practical load out. In the end your argument is like saying that the F-14 being able to carry 4 (up to 6) AIM54 was pointless, as they mostly flew CAP with just one mounted during the Cold War.
 
ThePointblank
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:20 am

seahawk wrote:
Why would you fly with a full load over Syria, when you do not expect to fight any dogfights and just arm for self defence. The same with CAP over the US, when you expect Cessnas or hijacked airliners, you do not need many missiles.

But I thought the USAF is getting ready for conflict with a near peer enemy, like China and there the outlook is imho different. There cruise missile attacks with 20+ missiles are realistic as are enemy formation of more than 20 fighters. And considering how they mount the AAMs on the F-15 the belly mounted ones won´t be that draggy, so you would probably only drop the quad packs and end up with 14 missiles in a practical load out. In the end your argument is like saying that the F-14 being able to carry 4 (up to 6) AIM54 was pointless, as they mostly flew CAP with just one mounted during the Cold War.

1. There's no realistic expectation that one could engage 20 targets. There has never been an aerial fight on record where a single fighter has engaged more than a handful of aircraft at the same time.

You also don't engage if the terms of engagement are not on your side; sending a one or two fighters to attack a large formation of enemy aircraft is foolhardy and a total waste of resources. You either send more fighters to even the odds, or you break up the formation into smaller, more manageable sections to be picked off.

2. The F-14 was both drag and weight limited, which prevented the aircraft from carrying more than 4 AIM-54's at a time on a patrol. More specifically, 6 AIM-54's exceeded the weight limit for landing on a carrier; if a F-14 wanted to land after being armed with 6 AIM-54's, they would have to eject the bulk of them into the ocean... which doesn't make sense for a CAP patrol during the Cold War...
 
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seahawk
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:50 am

But made sense when it came to shooting down anti-ship missiles and bombers if the Cold War turned hot.

Same with a 22 missile load on an F-15, it would not merge with 22 MiG-35 or Su-35, but against say 8 cruise missiles and the expect low hit rate of the missiles against such targets, it makes sense. So for the defence of CONUS it has some appeal.
 
ThePointblank
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:52 am

seahawk wrote:
But made sense when it came to shooting down anti-ship missiles and bombers if the Cold War turned hot.

Same with a 22 missile load on an F-15, it would not merge with 22 MiG-35 or Su-35, but against say 8 cruise missiles and the expect low hit rate of the missiles against such targets, it makes sense. So for the defence of CONUS it has some appeal.

1. You only did so if the prospects of an engagement was extremely likely; i.e. the carrier group is alerted that a Soviet Naval Aviation strike force was inbound.

2. You are better off sending more fighters armed with less missiles than a few fighters armed with lots of missiles; for one, you can cover more ground, and if you are engaging multiple targets in a group, more aircraft doing the shooting at the same time will ensure that pilots don't get overwhelmed by the number of targets. While a fighter could technically engage and track 20+ aircraft, managing the engagement from inside the cockpit is going to be a nightmare, and if you can spread the work across multiple aircraft, so much the better.
 
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seahawk
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:54 am

Only if you have more fighters.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:18 pm

seahawk wrote:
Only if you have more fighters.


Which give the theory of leasing these frames to Taiwan more credence :scratchchin:
They don't need the range, they do need mass quantities of missile but do not have infrastructures to support so many frames.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
texl1649
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:59 pm

Data links, training costs, acquisition costs, and basically everything else is cheaper if you have 22-missile sleds compared to some theoretical enormous fleet of F-16V’s for Taiwan, vs a theoretical onslaught by the Chinese, where the first 6 hours would be critical, to say the least.
 
ThePointblank
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:16 am

bikerthai wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Only if you have more fighters.


Which give the theory of leasing these frames to Taiwan more credence :scratchchin:
They don't need the range, they do need mass quantities of missile but do not have infrastructures to support so many frames.

bt

Would disagree.

For one, the tactical air space over Taiwan is fairly limited; the Chinese can only send up so many fighters before the air space becomes too crowded and it becomes ineffectual because of the need to deconflict the air space. That limit is well within the means of existing Taiwanese fighters and air defence systems to handle.

Second, there isn't enough air bases in China close enough to effectively ensure that Chinese aircraft could generate sufficient sorties without creating overcrowding. And even then, the sortie generation rate would decline over time as aircraft go out of service, become damaged or lost, or as air bases are attacked by Taiwanese missiles and aircraft.
 
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seahawk
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:46 am

Which assumes that the first attack would be fighters and not cruise missiles.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:11 pm

seahawk wrote:
Which assumes that the first attack would be fighters and not cruise missiles.


Or that the fighters would not come in waves thus having a significant number of missile allow for longer CAP time before returning to base for reload (assuming you survived). Even then, If you have 12 fighters in rotation, you would not have many in the air at the same time, so I would think you are not worried about lack of Chinese fighters to engage.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
ThePointblank
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:00 am

bikerthai wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Which assumes that the first attack would be fighters and not cruise missiles.


Or that the fighters would not come in waves thus having a significant number of missile allow for longer CAP time before returning to base for reload (assuming you survived). Even then, If you have 12 fighters in rotation, you would not have many in the air at the same time, so I would think you are not worried about lack of Chinese fighters to engage.

bt

You won't have enough fuel for extended CAP patrols and engagements, as the Taiwanese have no tankers.

Not to mention that fatigue also sets in as well; if you have to land to refuel and change out pilots, reloading weapons is minor in comparison to that.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:18 pm

We are not talking about CAP over the strait. As any conflict would assume the Chinese already invaded. So if you assume one or two flights of attacking aircrafts every 15 -20 minutes over the island, it is possible to use up all missiles before you have to return to base fore fuel. Preferably you don't want to have spent all your missiles as it would mean that bandits are still in the area when you have to leave the scene.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:49 pm

From the latest press, it seems that these frames are for the USAF and not for Taiwan. And the arguments we are having here are the same they are having in the DOD.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.

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