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426Shadow
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:47 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
Ozair that is exactly what I am thinking.

It is clearly obvious that they could just increase F-35 production back to the original planned levels to cover this "gap".

Any money to purchase an F-15X could purchase a more capable F-35. Everyone in the USAF would know this. To purchase the F-15X for A2A when the F-35A is cheaper and does a better job would require corruption on all levels.



As someone who is actually on the F-35 program, i can tell you that this isn't nearly as easy as you think. You cant simply add bodies and expect a linear increase in production rate. Actually almost the opposite has been happening. While we are building more ships in less time, they are actually taking longer to build per ship, we just have more people to make up the difference. It has not been easy trying to make rate. I'm just a worker bee but if i was in charge I wouldn't have made such a bold statement as to how quickly we can produce these.
Do it on three, One.....THREEEEEEE! Just got the nuts hangin out.
 
Ozair
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:24 pm

426Shadow wrote:

As someone who is actually on the F-35 program, i can tell you that this isn't nearly as easy as you think. You cant simply add bodies and expect a linear increase in production rate. Actually almost the opposite has been happening. While we are building more ships in less time, they are actually taking longer to build per ship, we just have more people to make up the difference. It has not been easy trying to make rate. I'm just a worker bee but if i was in charge I wouldn't have made such a bold statement as to how quickly we can produce these.

I appreciate your insight. We do have independent stats that show that the time to assemble an F-35 is faster than it has been and continues to trend, albeit it slowly, downwards.

Image

The issue is how much progression LM can make with lowering that timeframe because to a large extent that is where LM will make their profit after Government mandated pricing. From the news thread we see some indications of how many people LM has been hiring in expectation of that production increase. Those people will take time to mature into their positions and build their knowledge/skill base. Obviously I don’t want to get you in trouble but would be very interested in any insights you have to the production process and whether you consider, with the number of staff now available, whether the 130+ jets for 2019 is a doable number.

You would have to assume that the supply chain is ready and waiting for this increase as well and LM and the supply chain seem to have done a good job the last couple of years in meeting the rate while also delivering the additional jets agreed by congress.
 
bobinthecar
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:50 am

At the end of the day it's cheaper over the life of the plane to buy new F-15s than it is to update the existing F-15Cs. Those planes had to be updated in order to maintain force levels. If you poke around enough you will see that, no, there is not enough capacity in the supply chain to increase F-35 production fast enough to replace both F-16s and the ANG F-15s. These new F-15s will be very useful additions to the the Air Force and they will also allow the US to maintain at least two hot production lines, protect the industrial base for fighters and employ two strong teams of engineers to develop the next generation fighter.
 
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seahawk
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:21 am

The experience form upgrading older fighters, shows that you usually put in a lot of money only to find a part that you did not upgrade to fail and cause the next expensive round of upgrades.

And upgrading the longerons of planes made in the early 1980ies and having flown for 35 years, might become more difficult than expected. (manufacturing tolerances of the past and how the individual plane reacted to the stress of flying over time, might requite custom made or specially adjusted parts for each plane.)
 
texl1649
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:43 am

Lockheed, or at least their GD/Consolidated forbears, were able to deliver a heck of a lot more F-16 (and way back when B-24’s) per day out of that Fort Worth plant than they are planning to do with the F-35. Heck, they even managed to make close to 400 B-36 in 8 years, in what must have been a pretty darn labor intensive per-plane production run.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:01 pm

texl1649 wrote:
Lockheed, or at least their GD/Consolidated forbears, were able to deliver a heck of a lot more F-16 (and way back when B-24’s) per day out of that Fort Worth plant than they are planning to do with the F-35. Heck, they even managed to make close to 400 B-36 in 8 years, in what must have been a pretty darn labor intensive per-plane production run.


There are three difference between those days and today.

1) The F-35 is mostly composites and titanium. The manufacturing of which is more time intensive both in machining, curing and material availability. Specially with the F-35 high temperature composite.

2) The availability of skilled worker is greater back then. With manufacturing moving off-shore, rate increases now depends on availability of expensive NC machines and skilled operators which can not be as easily obtained and trained.

3) They were not competing with the massive production surge of Boeing and Airbus commercial products. Boeing BDS programs used to have problems getting sub-contractors to bid on their parts because the sub-contractors would prefer the more lucrative and massive quantities of BAC orders. Now with their purchasing organization under one system it is working a bit better. So with the suppliers bracing for the new Boeing and Airbus rates, getting them to up the rates for F-35 parts may not be as easy as one would expect..

bt
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sandbender
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:55 pm

bikerthai wrote:
There are three difference between those days and today.


I'd say there's a more fundamental reason you can't compare production rates for the two. From day one, the F-16 was designed to be a purpose built, cost-effective daytime knife fighter. Initially there was even a debate about the need for a radar. It's the polar opposite of the F-35 in just about every way imaginable. The F-16 has matured beyond that now but trying to compare production rates between the two is not really practical. I'd wager the electrical wiring alone on a the F-35 is an order of magnitude more complex than the F-16A/B. I tried to find component counts for the two aircraft but my google skills weren't up to it.
 
texl1649
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:08 pm

I’m always a bit mystified at the perception that skilled workers were easier to come by in the 50’s-80’s. I’ve never seen any data supporting the assertions. The population was smaller, education levels lower, and labor costs net about the same vs. today. There hasn’t been a more skilled, educated workforce in human history, in truth, than is available today in the US (and Europe).

Further, almost no one in the greater DFW area is considering employment options with Airbus/Boeing on other programs.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:48 pm

texl1649 wrote:
I’m always a bit mystified at the perception that skilled workers were easier to come by in the 50’s-80’s. I’ve never seen any data supporting the assertions. The population was smaller, education levels lower, and labor costs net about the same vs. today. There hasn’t been a more skilled, educated workforce in human history, in truth, than is available today in the US (and Europe).

Further, almost no one in the greater DFW area is considering employment options with Airbus/Boeing on other programs.


It really depends on the skill isn't it? I would propose that back then, percentage wise speaking, there would be a greater percentage of US worker who knows how to drive a rivet gun, weld or machined a part (they were trained during the height of WWII). The pool of worker building cars, airplanes etc . . . was larger. Now, much of that have gone to Japan or China.

As for workers in DFW working for Airbus or Boeing? Well the society is much more mobile now, and anyone who had the necessary skill (and not employed) would have already moved to Seattle, Mobile or Charleston. Heck, with the increase rate of the 737 to 60+ a month (two 737 a day!) they will be needing more people in Wichita (Spirit) as well.

Boeing have started hiring more people in the Puget Sound again. And while it is not in the same vein (as it involved more white collar workers), some have proposed that one of the reason why they pushed back the announcement of the 797 is better align the workforce who would have come off the 777X development.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
strfyr51
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:08 am

It makes perfect sense if the airplane is suited for upgrades, But to date? Nobody has actually beaten an F-15 in Air to air or Ground to air so far, and I'm almost sure it may not happen very quickly. So the USAF and USN Array of fighters and Attack airplanes? Might soldier on for quite a while with upgrades.
 
SuperiorPilotMe
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:32 am

I just want to say the guy who started this idiotic idea, Tyler Rogoway, is in no way a professional military service member nor does he even have a pilots license. He’s just American Carlo Kopp. Think about that.

Also his employer Josh Condon...well let’s just say his last name fits. Also one of his colleagues Alex Roy was caught on social media committing felony assault.

This is the second time I’ve had to post this my first post was rejected due to what I suspect bias on the part of staff.
Stop the stupids!- Claus Kellerman
 
Planeflyer
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:40 am

strfyr51 wrote:
It makes perfect sense if the airplane is suited for upgrades, But to date? Nobody has actually beaten an F-15 in Air to air or Ground to air so far, and I'm almost sure it may not happen very quickly. So the USAF and USN Array of fighters and Attack airplanes? Might soldier on for quite a while with upgrades.



The services have invested in the F35 because they know what is happening in RF electronics.

The fact that so many countries have bought is not coincidence. Many of these have upgraded from low cost F16. Why?

The 15,18, EF and every other 4 th gen ac are obsolete in any sort of contested environment.

If the ac survives it will do because the pilot was able to dodge multiple incoming drones( missiles).

The answer is not ac carrying ordinance but unmanned ac acting as loyal wingman.

Yesterday won’t work.
 
Max Q
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Sun Feb 03, 2019 7:04 am

There are now reports that early build F35’s may only be good for 2000 hours of airframe life


Remarkable, the article I read goes on to say this incredibly low number of available hours may not be confined to early models either and later versions are being reviewed


It postulates that when the massive weight shedding program was undertaken so much reinforcing structure was taken out that aircraft strength and longevity may have been seriously compromised



I hope LM has an answer to this
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Ozair
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:07 am

Max Q wrote:
There are now reports that early build F35’s may only be good for 2000 hours of airframe life


Remarkable, the article I read goes on to say this incredibly low number of available hours may not be confined to early models either and later versions are being reviewed


It postulates that when the massive weight shedding program was undertaken so much reinforcing structure was taken out that aircraft strength and longevity may have been seriously compromised



I hope LM has an answer to this

Max it is a well understood issue that has been known about for at least the last five years.

F-35B Service Life: The F-35B has completed full scale durability testing to 16,000 hours. Planned modifications and fleet management of the early contract F-35B aircraft will ensure that they meet the 8,000 hour service life requirement, and aircraft delivering today incorporate these design changes in the build process to ensure they’ll meet 8,000 hours or more.

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/26 ... rvice-life
 
Ozair
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:27 am

bobinthecar wrote:
At the end of the day it's cheaper over the life of the plane to buy new F-15s than it is to update the existing F-15Cs. Those planes had to be updated in order to maintain force levels.

We know how much it will cost to upgrade the C/D aircraft and we also know most of them have already been upgraded with improved sensors and systems. From the back of hand calculations on the first page of this thread it would take the approximately 17 years for the USAF to recoup the costs of buying the X over upgrading the C/D (with the most expensive structural upgrades suggested but this doesn't factor in availability and potential capability improvements the X probably has over the C/D).

bobinthecar wrote:
If you poke around enough you will see that, no, there is not enough capacity in the supply chain to increase F-35 production fast enough to replace both F-16s and the ANG F-15s. These new F-15s will be very useful additions to the the Air Force and they will also allow the US to maintain at least two hot production lines, protect the industrial base for fighters and employ two strong teams of engineers to develop the next generation fighter.

I disgaree on the first point. LM is already going from 91 jets this year to 130+ next year so clearly there is flex in the production line. If the funding is there then the industrial base should be easily able to support increased production. Despite what has been suggested there is no backlog for autoclaves to meet production requirements.

SuperiorPilotMe wrote:
I just want to say the guy who started this idiotic idea, Tyler Rogoway, is in no way a professional military service member nor does he even have a pilots license. He’s just American Carlo Kopp. Think about that.

It is pretty easy to see the agenda he has, the F-35 is a good means to generate clicks and by extension revenue.

sandbender wrote:

I'd say there's a more fundamental reason you can't compare production rates for the two. From day one, the F-16 was designed to be a purpose built, cost-effective daytime knife fighter. Initially there was even a debate about the need for a radar. It's the polar opposite of the F-35 in just about every way imaginable. The F-16 has matured beyond that now but trying to compare production rates between the two is not really practical. I'd wager the electrical wiring alone on a the F-35 is an order of magnitude more complex than the F-16A/B. I tried to find component counts for the two aircraft but my google skills weren't up to it.

I agree they are very different aircraft but the know how on how to raise production to expected levels is understood. The F-35 also has an extensive supplier base that can continue to be expanded upon should it be required as well as an additional FACO in Italy that could increase final assembly, the Italians would be very happy with any suggestion of such.
 
426Shadow
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Mon Feb 04, 2019 1:49 am

Ozair wrote:
426Shadow wrote:

As someone who is actually on the F-35 program, i can tell you that this isn't nearly as easy as you think. You cant simply add bodies and expect a linear increase in production rate. Actually almost the opposite has been happening. While we are building more ships in less time, they are actually taking longer to build per ship, we just have more people to make up the difference. It has not been easy trying to make rate. I'm just a worker bee but if i was in charge I wouldn't have made such a bold statement as to how quickly we can produce these.

I appreciate your insight. We do have independent stats that show that the time to assemble an F-35 is faster than it has been and continues to trend, albeit it slowly, downwards.

Image

The issue is how much progression LM can make with lowering that timeframe because to a large extent that is where LM will make their profit after Government mandated pricing. From the news thread we see some indications of how many people LM has been hiring in expectation of that production increase. Those people will take time to mature into their positions and build their knowledge/skill base. Obviously I don’t want to get you in trouble but would be very interested in any insights you have to the production process and whether you consider, with the number of staff now available, whether the 130+ jets for 2019 is a doable number.

You would have to assume that the supply chain is ready and waiting for this increase as well and LM and the supply chain seem to have done a good job the last couple of years in meeting the rate while also delivering the additional jets agreed by congress.


I can only speak for the center wing assemblies.

And these next numbers are made up(they are way higher than reality but for legal reasons i cant give actual numbers) but the difference in them is accurate. Lets say that the Aft center wing average end of 2017 was 3000 hours per unit with the 2019 hours being 4200 hours per unit. So what we have is more of them being worked on at any given time which keeps them being delivered at a high rate BUT it's actually taking longer per unit. The general consensus is that we have SOOOOO many program transfers and new people that they cannot perform at the level of the veterans while at the same time coming into a program with a work pace that is hard even for us veterans.
Do it on three, One.....THREEEEEEE! Just got the nuts hangin out.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Mon Feb 04, 2019 1:33 pm

426Shadow wrote:
The general consensus is that we have SOOOOO many program transfers and new people that they cannot perform at the level of the veterans while at the same time coming into a program with a work pace that is hard even for us veterans.


Boeing has experienced the same personnel brain drain the last couple years. We are about to lose the last of the veteran machinist hired in prior to the down turn in the 1970's. There was a hole in the hiring period during the 70's and 80's that will result in loss of top level experience for a while.

bt
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texl1649
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:04 pm

Single and 2 seat, ‘about 230 frames.’ Pratt or GE. Hmmm....


“As for how many jets would be procured under an F-15X initiative, our sources close to the discussions say between 150 to 250 aircraft depending on what the USAF wants to do with its overall force structure. The most likely number is roughly 230 airframes to replace the F-15C/D force one a one-for-one basis. Procurement would likely start with eight aircraft, which could be delivered very soon, with roughly 18 to 24 procured each year after that. Oh, and there are two variants of the F-15X that are being offered by Boeing and will likely be procured. One is dubbed the F-15CX and the other is known as the F-15EX.”

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/26 ... m-per-copy
 
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bikerthai
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:31 pm

The article touch into some of the intricacy Ozair was talking about with respect to training and how it impacts the fleet readiness and clearly described how buying more F-35 is not an option.

Can't wait to see how all this pan out.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
Ozair
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:55 am

texl1649 wrote:
Single and 2 seat, ‘about 230 frames.’ Pratt or GE. Hmmm....

“As for how many jets would be procured under an F-15X initiative, our sources close to the discussions say between 150 to 250 aircraft depending on what the USAF wants to do with its overall force structure. The most likely number is roughly 230 airframes to replace the F-15C/D force one a one-for-one basis. Procurement would likely start with eight aircraft, which could be delivered very soon, with roughly 18 to 24 procured each year after that. Oh, and there are two variants of the F-15X that are being offered by Boeing and will likely be procured. One is dubbed the F-15CX and the other is known as the F-15EX.”

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/26 ... m-per-copy

I don’t expect any two seaters other than conversion trainers. If the requirement is to replace the F-15C fleet in the air superiority role then those are purely single seat jets (with D models flown single seat if they need to). There is no two aircrew training pipeline for those jets and that would almost certainly increase costs significantly through manning and training. As I suggested earlier up the thread and the article confirmed, the use case is going to be purely air superiority, the cost only makes sense when aircrew transition over from an existing C/D jet.

I still find the cost claims crazy! To claim as the article suggests that the aircraft will cost less than an F-35 to acquire still seems bogus to me. We are talking less than US$80 mill now to compete with the F-35, that is less than the USN are buying new Super Hornets for and the F-15X is a bigger and more capable jet than that aircraft.

I am expecting Pratts as well for the buy. If the intent it so slip into existing units at minimal cost then that makes the most sense given these power existing F-15C/D aircraft.
bikerthai wrote:
The article touch into some of the intricacy Ozair was talking about with respect to training and how it impacts the fleet readiness and clearly described how buying more F-35 is not an option.

Makes sense now how they can make the claim on lower cost to bring the fleet in.

bikerthai wrote:
Can't wait to see how all this pan out.

Indeed, I find this one of the more interesting topics we have discussed here for a number of years and probably why there is six pages to the thread…

Still, the flying service's seemingly bold decision to face the damning fleet issues it is facing and look outside the F-35 procurement box for tactical jet solutions is bound to be met with controversy. Also, keep in mind that the USAF's F-15X wishes have to make it through the beltway intact to become a reality, and that's if they do emerge as expected in the fiscal year 2020 defense budget. As always, there is also another side to the story, one that is worth discussing in greater detail.
Now that we have more information about the F-15X in hand, we will look deeper into alternatives to it and address the question of if procuring it is really a good route for the USAF to take at this time.

As Tyler suggests in his last paragraphs of the article this isn’t a done deal yet, it will still need to survive congress although the more likely scenario is the F-15X is added and additional F-35s are added at the same time.

What are the alternatives? A bulk buy of F-16Vs instead of the F-15X could be an option but likely at not much less cost although likely cheaper long term sustainment. It is highly unlikely that the USAF could acquire a foreign aircraft for the money suggested. Given how much the USAF has spent upgrading the C/Ds over the last decade it is shame to waste that investment. Congress could fund the USAF to upgrade the XC/D fleet but now Boeing is sniffing the X sales I expect that upgrade talk has disappeared.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:54 am

The two seateris not meant for training. The article suggested that the second seat may functioning as a mission system operator to act as a communication hub for the stealths UAV's etc. The other function that the article suggested for keeping the 15c/d/x is a platform for the big missiles aka asat or hypersonic.

It was interesting to hear that the US is finally benefiting from development paid by foreign airforces as opposed to the other way around.

bt
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bikerthai
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:59 am

The other nugget I get from this is how confident Boeing has become with their manufacturing process to drive down cost. It seems like a very big gamble which if not executed may bankrupt the company.

We will see as they start to deliver on those contract wins last year. If those programs proceed well, then I would bet money that their 797 will hit the cost target as well

bt
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Ozair
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:14 am

bikerthai wrote:
The two seateris not meant for training. The article suggested that the second seat may functioning as a mission system operator to act as a communication hub for the stealths UAV's etc. The other function that the article suggested for keeping the 15c/d/x is a platform for the big missiles aka asat or hypersonic.

I agree that a two seat has value but this is being sold as a C/D replacement where the Ds function essentially as two seat trainers. It completely breaks the cost model if you want to bring in a second stream of back seat aircrew for a fleet the same size as the E. That is a massive increase in training and support infrastructure and it stops being one or two rides for conversion and becomes a 6 month lead in course with 60 flights. Also from my experience traditionally single seat fighter aircrew used to flying solo aren’t overly receptive to having a second crewman in the same jet as them...

bikerthai wrote:
The other nugget I get from this is how confident Boeing has become with their manufacturing process to drive down cost. It seems like a very big gamble which if not executed may bankrupt the company.

Very doubtful. Even if Boeing made a loss of US$25 million on each jet it wouldn’t impact the company. They could very likely lose money on all four contracts (T-X, MQ-25, RW and F-15X) and the commercial side would prop them up with the revenue they have flowing in.

Edit: Just to add, I don’t think this is about Boeing confidence on their manufacturing process either. They haven’t designed a new process to build a 45 year old aircraft, I believe they are willing to take the hit to get the aircraft out there and allow the line to remain open, bringing in more lucrative export sales.
 
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seahawk
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:09 am

Just because it will replace the current Ds does not mean it could not be much more capable and used for other roles as well.
 
Ozair
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:50 am

seahawk wrote:
Just because it will replace the current Ds does not mean it could not be much more capable and used for other roles as well.

It does if it costs more.

The intent is the replacement of the C/D fleet with essentially the same aircraft because it only makes fiscal sense when the USAF can utilise the same support infrastructure and the aircrew transition across nearly seamlessly. The current fleet doesn't train for air to ground, they don't have the procedures, weapons and possibly even no proximity to ranges. They also have a very specific mission and the C/D fleet is almost exclusively National Guard.

To change that costs significantly more money, money the USAF probably doesn't have. It doesn't mean any F-15x won't do that one day but if we see 50 or 100 or 200 in USAF service the likelihood is they will continue the "not a pound for air to ground" mantra for many years.
 
estorilm
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:00 pm

texl1649 wrote:
Single and 2 seat, ‘about 230 frames.’ Pratt or GE. Hmmm....


“As for how many jets would be procured under an F-15X initiative, our sources close to the discussions say between 150 to 250 aircraft depending on what the USAF wants to do with its overall force structure. The most likely number is roughly 230 airframes to replace the F-15C/D force one a one-for-one basis. Procurement would likely start with eight aircraft, which could be delivered very soon, with roughly 18 to 24 procured each year after that. Oh, and there are two variants of the F-15X that are being offered by Boeing and will likely be procured. One is dubbed the F-15CX and the other is known as the F-15EX.”

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/26 ... m-per-copy

This is fine and all, except the procurement process (both numbers and production rate) - I just can't comprehend a scenario where we are still buying / building large, expensive twin-engine 4th generation fighters TEN YEARS from now.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:25 pm

Ozair wrote:
They could very likely lose money on all four contracts (T-X, MQ-25, RW and F-15X) and the commercial side would prop them up with the revenue they have flowing in.


The gamble in the manufacturing process will also be incorporated on to the 797. That is why if they don't get it right, the commercial side will get hit as well. I would suspect that they already proved it out on portion if not all of the 777X, thus the confidence.

As for the F-15X, it would require that they put Engineering money in re-doing CAD model/Drawings to align the F-15X parts to the new manufacturing processes. I would not be surprised if they have already completed that for the foreign F-15's thus that non-recurring cost is done. Thus if they can reduce the final assembly time of each F-15X by say 1/2 or 1/3, then they can well achieve a very low cost and still make enough money to keep the line going, even at say 12 frames a year.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
estorilm
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:41 pm

bikerthai wrote:
Ozair wrote:
They could very likely lose money on all four contracts (T-X, MQ-25, RW and F-15X) and the commercial side would prop them up with the revenue they have flowing in.


The gamble in the manufacturing process will also be incorporated on to the 797. That is why if they don't get it right, the commercial side will get hit as well. I would suspect that they already proved it out on portion if not all of the 777X, thus the confidence.

As for the F-15X, it would require that they put Engineering money in re-doing CAD model/Drawings to align the F-15X parts to the new manufacturing processes. I would not be surprised if they have already completed that for the foreign F-15's thus that non-recurring cost is done. Thus if they can reduce the final assembly time of each F-15X by say 1/2 or 1/3, then they can well achieve a very low cost and still make enough money to keep the line going, even at say 12 frames a year.

bt

12 frames a year defeats the entire point of the project - that just guarantees that we're going to be spending lots of maintenance $$$ on ANCIENT C/Ds in ten years or so, OR that they are simply retired early and we still don't have a replacement on a per-aircraft basis.

I don't understand how this is a feasible program without quickly acquiring the fighters - I thought that was the entire point, to get these things on-line before the legacy F-15s started to really hurt our pockets and capabilities in the battlefield in modern warfare scenarios.

I'm actually okay with the program if we get them ASAP, but as I stated above - can ANY of us in here honestly see us punching out and acquiring new 4th gen F-15s in 2030?! I have a difficult time doing so today, but really? We're not talking some semi-cheap / single-engine light fighter here.

You repeatedly mention TONS of confidence from Boeing - while I'm sure the company has plenty, I don't think everyone else is necessarily convinced. The KC-46 was an absolute disaster in what should have been a fairly simple project - the promises in that sales pitch seem comical today. That was one of the few times where I'll flat-out admit that it would have been cheaper, faster (and offer more capability) to just get the MRTT.

I also don't see much correlation between these military / defense contracts and their civilian aviation plans or budgets - I think they are largely independent, at least in scope and risk.
 
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:04 pm

estorilm wrote:
12 frames a year defeats the entire point of the project


12 frames a year is just a wild ass example of the minimum production rate that they would need to keep the line profitable, it could be more or less, who knows.

estorilm wrote:
I'm actually okay with the program if we get them ASAP, but as I stated above - can ANY of us in here honestly see us punching out and acquiring new 4th gen F-15s in 2030?!


Again, it depends on how many frames they can produce a year to keep it profitable. Currently Boeing has frames to build for Qatar and Israel that may extend the line for a few years, if these US frames kick in, they can extend the line as needed.

estorilm wrote:
The KC-46 was an absolute disaster in what should have been a fairly simple project - the promises in that sales pitch seem comical today.


The disaster with the KC-46 has nothing to do with the new manufacturing process Boeing is touting. That is why I suggest keeping an eye on the 777x to predict the impact of their learning curve.

estorilm wrote:
I also don't see much correlation between these military / defense contracts and their civilian aviation plans or budgets -


While the budgets between the two Boeing's are separated, engineering and development staff have become more integrated. It has taken a long time for the old MD and Boeing Engineering organization to work more or less seamlessly together, but they have finally got to the point where technology developed by one division is not pigeonholed by another. Whether from Charleston, Philadelphia, St Lois, Mesa or the Puget sound area, Engineers and the knowledge that they hold can move from one division to another to where they are needed with the only caveat being whether the Engineer desire to live in the area they are assigned. The manufacturing breakthrough that I was referring to was developed in St. Louis and migrated it's way to Seattle and Mesa to support the recent wins.

bt
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estorilm
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:12 pm

bikerthai wrote:
estorilm wrote:
12 frames a year defeats the entire point of the project


12 frames a year is just a wild ass example of the minimum production rate that they would need to keep the line profitable, it could be more or less, who knows.

estorilm wrote:
I'm actually okay with the program if we get them ASAP, but as I stated above - can ANY of us in here honestly see us punching out and acquiring new 4th gen F-15s in 2030?!


Again, it depends on how many frames they can produce a year to keep it profitable. Currently Boeing has frames to build for Qatar and Israel that may extend the line for a few years, if these US frames kick in, they can extend the line as needed.


Oh trust me, I know what you mean - my thoughts were based on the article that was just posted, which mentions 150 to 250 frames at a rate of 18-24 a year. Personally none of that really adds up for me, from a strategic and financial point of view.
Fast forward 10-13 years or so when the last one of these things (hypothetically) rolls off of the production line. We are going to be paying the same (or possibly even more) for that F-15X frame than the latest-block F-35. You can squeeze as much as you want out of it - it's still a large twin-engined aircraft with fairly advanced avionics. The more advanced they make it, the more expensive it becomes, and the more everyone will be scratching their heads from a cost perspective - it's a tough position to be in.

Personally I think it'll be great for Boeing in the near future - but I could EASILY see the entire program being axed in 5 years.

bikerthai wrote:
estorilm wrote:
I also don't see much correlation between these military / defense contracts and their civilian aviation plans or budgets -


While the budgets between the two Boeing's are separated, engineering and development staff have become more integrated. It has taken a long time for the old MD and Boeing Engineering organization to work more or less seamlessly together, but they have finally got to the point where technology developed by one division is not pigeonholed by another. Whether from Charleston, Philadelphia, St Lois, Mesa or the Puget sound area, Engineers and the knowledge that they hold can move from one division to another to where they are needed with the only caveat being whether the Engineer desire to live in the area they are assigned. The manufacturing breakthrough that I was referring to was developed in St. Louis and migrated it's way to Seattle and Mesa to support the recent wins.

bt

I still don't know which magical "manufacturing breakthrough" you vaguely keep hinting at.. but whatever it is, it needs to be adapted to the entire mfg process and likely engineering as well. I'm not sure that's very likely initially as they already have an active production line for the fighter, or obviously variants of it. Being a smaller-scale project with smaller components vs. commercial, I wouldn't really expect any large breakthrough for mfg, at least not for a mature design and production line (yes, I realize this is a different variant, but I think they'll save the most money and generate the most profit by leaving as many things about the F-15 alone as they possibly can - including manufacturing.) Just my $.02 :)
 
estorilm
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:30 pm

Random tangent (don't mind me...)

I just did the math and 200 of these things (middle of the road for that article) at $85m (optimistic IMHO) is $17bn USD.

Let's put that into perspective here... didn't we all just unanimously agree that re-starting Raptor production lines was ridiculous due to the costs?

You could hypothetically take this budget and build another 85 F-22s (at the insane price which was quoted) for the same price as this project.

Yes, I don't think that would be even remotely possible with Lockheed's F-35 commitments - but it's still funny to think about. We are all treating this as a "small, interim" type of procurement for a small number of fighters, when in reality it's about equal to the cost of bumping the Raptor fleet by 30%! Even if you had that 30% flying around with pylons as missile-trucks, at least you could strip them down and have an invaluable lower-hour 5th gen air superiority fighter.

99% of this is just pointing out the cost, don't worry - I know there will never be another Raptor built ;)
 
Ozair
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:47 am

estorilm wrote:
Random tangent (don't mind me...)

I just did the math and 200 of these things (middle of the road for that article) at $85m (optimistic IMHO) is $17bn USD.

Let's put that into perspective here... didn't we all just unanimously agree that re-starting Raptor production lines was ridiculous due to the costs?

You could hypothetically take this budget and build another 85 F-22s (at the insane price which was quoted) for the same price as this project.

Yes, I don't think that would be even remotely possible with Lockheed's F-35 commitments - but it's still funny to think about. We are all treating this as a "small, interim" type of procurement for a small number of fighters, when in reality it's about equal to the cost of bumping the Raptor fleet by 30%! Even if you had that 30% flying around with pylons as missile-trucks, at least you could strip them down and have an invaluable lower-hour 5th gen air superiority fighter.

99% of this is just pointing out the cost, don't worry - I know there will never be another Raptor built ;)

Same principle applies though to the support infrastructure around the F-15C/D fleet being the driver in making this a reduced cost acquisition. The F-15X slides into that infrastructure and aircrew base, the F-22 or F-35 doesn’t.

estorilm wrote:
I still don't know which magical "manufacturing breakthrough" you vaguely keep hinting at.. but whatever it is, it needs to be adapted to the entire mfg process and likely engineering as well. I'm not sure that's very likely initially as they already have an active production line for the fighter, or obviously variants of it. Being a smaller-scale project with smaller components vs. commercial, I wouldn't really expect any large breakthrough for mfg, at least not for a mature design and production line (yes, I realize this is a different variant, but I think they'll save the most money and generate the most profit by leaving as many things about the F-15 alone as they possibly can - including manufacturing.) Just my $.02 :)

Agree, this continues to confuse on how this could be achieved and why they would do it. The cost to do this could very well be significantly greater than any cost benefit they would see, especially before an order had even been placed and there is no indication it has already been completed and paid for with Saudi/Qatari money either.
 
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:14 am

With the massively reduced numbers of F22’s the USAF had to accept and the F35 seemingly best suited to strike missions, a significant order of F15’s that can bolster air to air capability has to be a winning idea
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


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426Shadow
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:45 am

bikerthai wrote:
426Shadow wrote:
The general consensus is that we have SOOOOO many program transfers and new people that they cannot perform at the level of the veterans while at the same time coming into a program with a work pace that is hard even for us veterans.


Boeing has experienced the same personnel brain drain the last couple years. We are about to lose the last of the veteran machinist hired in prior to the down turn in the 1970's. There was a hole in the hiring period during the 70's and 80's that will result in loss of top level experience for a while.

bt


Actually ours is kind of the opposite. The C-5 RERP obviously shut down last year, and as it did we started getting people from that program, and as soon as they started hitting our hours per unit went WAAAAAAY up even as the amount of ships we were supposed to do per month pretty much doubled. And then we started getting people off the streets, and our numbers have never been the same. So yea we got out all the ships on time last year, but each one actually cost more than they did per ship before the rate increase.
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:26 pm

estorilm wrote:
I still don't know which magical "manufacturing breakthrough" you vaguely keep hinting at.. but whatever it is, it needs to be adapted to the entire mfg process and likely engineering as well.


Yes, the information is proprietary but there is mentioning of it in various articles with respect to their recent 3 win (T-X, Tanker Drone and Light Helicopter).
Yes, the new approach involved both Engineering and Manufacturing processes. And yes I have seen a prototype frame built per this process. But no, I can not describe it to you. :twisted:

Whether Qatar or Israel money was used to pay for the F-15X process re-alignment would only be speculative, but with future build of 36 + 36 frame for Qatar and how many more for Israel, I would not be surprised that the Engineering is already done to re-align to the new process and that would be why Boeing offered such deal on the -X.

From the article the GAO predicted that the projected F-15X maximum cost will never be greater than the projected F-35 minimum purchase cost. You may be right if you figure in the maintenance cost of the extra engine, and the GAO may be incorrect. But until we see actual data, the GAO number is the best we are going to get.

And besides, the Air Force still needs the two engine F-15 for some missions that the F-35 can not do. That has been stated by the General himself. So even if you can get all F-35 you want, you will still need a few F-15 frames for specific missions. You will be looking at 1000+ F-35's and some 200 odd F-15s in the final mix. I guess that is why LM is not concerned about this F-15 buy.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
estorilm
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:12 pm

bikerthai wrote:
estorilm wrote:
I still don't know which magical "manufacturing breakthrough" you vaguely keep hinting at.. but whatever it is, it needs to be adapted to the entire mfg process and likely engineering as well.


Yes, the information is proprietary but there is mentioning of it in various articles with respect to their recent 3 win (T-X, Tanker Drone and Light Helicopter).
Yes, the new approach involved both Engineering and Manufacturing processes. And yes I have seen a prototype frame built per this process. But no, I can not describe it to you. :twisted:

Whether Qatar or Israel money was used to pay for the F-15X process re-alignment would only be speculative, but with future build of 36 + 36 frame for Qatar and how many more for Israel, I would not be surprised that the Engineering is already done to re-align to the new process and that would be why Boeing offered such deal on the -X.

From the article the GAO predicted that the projected F-15X maximum cost will never be greater than the projected F-35 minimum purchase cost. You may be right if you figure in the maintenance cost of the extra engine, and the GAO may be incorrect. But until we see actual data, the GAO number is the best we are going to get.

And besides, the Air Force still needs the two engine F-15 for some missions that the F-35 can not do. That has been stated by the General himself. So even if you can get all F-35 you want, you will still need a few F-15 frames for specific missions. You will be looking at 1000+ F-35's and some 200 odd F-15s in the final mix. I guess that is why LM is not concerned about this F-15 buy.

bt

Fair enough, sounds exciting if true - and a sign that Boeing is trying to stay ahead of the power curve on these projects (which THEY NEED TO DO!) Plus they probably bit off slightly more than they can chew (I don't think many people saw them getting all of these).

There does seem to be some strange fascination with having fighters do LOTS of A2G stuff lately. I mean it's an absolutely critical capability to have - as they can defend themselves in contested airspace, but these days (with the advanced SAMs) I really see that value with stealth platforms alone, unless it's following complete SEAD and it doesn't matter what you're flying after that. My point is - what about the bombers we have?

If you KNOW you are going to be facing A2A threats, you aren't going to send in an F-15X over an F-22 or an F-35 are you? Likewise in contested airspace where a strike is required, why fly multiple groups consisting of CAP, EW, then a group of F-15X's with bombs? Wouldn't 3-4 F-35s or Raptors accomplish the same thing? Or (and this is my point here) why not have a few fighters fly CAP and have something like a B-2 or hell even a B-52 go in to drop the bombs?

Besides the recurring argument here is that the X will replace the C/D, so when you say the X is more capable than the F-35 in some areas, it sorta is - but replacement-wise, the F-35 is vastly more useful than a C/D which is what the USAF is ultimately trying to replace here. Again, I'm not really against this whole thing, but it does seem pointless if we only a) get ~20 a year and b) won't deploy them for a few years still.

Maybe a better way to look at this is the X being a top-off of the Strike Eagles, which do have a valuable skill set. Meanwhile the C/Ds are simply retired for 5th gens. Same exact result, it just sounds better when you say it this way. :lol: :veryhappy:
 
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bikerthai
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:38 pm

If you read from the same author in The Drive about how Israel uses there F-15, specifically the two seater version in a strike package, you can see the niche that it can operate in. One day you may be able to replace that function with networked drones, but that day is still far away.

bt
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bikerthai
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:43 pm

If you look at the Saudi in Yemen, or Israel in Syria they do not have dedicated bombers, so the F15 is as close to a B52 in terms of payloads they are going to get.

bt
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Ozair
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:20 pm

bikerthai wrote:

Yes, the new approach involved both Engineering and Manufacturing processes. And yes I have seen a prototype frame built per this process. But no, I can not describe it to you. :twisted:

A prototype F-15?

bikerthai wrote:

Whether Qatar or Israel money was used to pay for the F-15X process re-alignment would only be speculative, but with future build of 36 + 36 frame for Qatar and how many more for Israel, I would not be surprised that the Engineering is already done to re-align to the new process and that would be why Boeing offered such deal on the -X.

From the article the GAO predicted that the projected F-15X maximum cost will never be greater than the projected F-35 minimum purchase cost. You may be right if you figure in the maintenance cost of the extra engine, and the GAO may be incorrect. But until we see actual data, the GAO number is the best we are going to get.

What GAO report and numbers? The ‘The Drive’ article only mentioned a source close to the proposal, not a GAO report.

I highly doubt a GAO report has been released on the F-15X and I also still disagree with the claim on the flyaway cost of the F-15X compared to the F-35. It literally does not make logical sense to have such an aircraft with all the associated systems and two engines with a much lower production rate cost the same as the F-35.
 
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:37 am

Ozair wrote:
A prototype F-15?


It wasn't really a flying prototype. It was really a manufacturing proof of concept prototype of a UAV about the size of a small fighter. And it was more than two years back, so my memory of it is not as keen. :old:

Before last year, like many here, I would only have put my money on Boeing wining the helo contract. I would not have even contemplate them winning all three contracts. So either the paradigm is shifting or Boeing really is out on a limb with those contracts.

Only time will tell I guess.

bt
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Ozair
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:27 am

bikerthai wrote:
Ozair wrote:
A prototype F-15?


It wasn't really a flying prototype. It was really a manufacturing proof of concept prototype of a UAV about the size of a small fighter. And it was more than two years back, so my memory of it is not as keen. :old:

Before last year, like many here, I would only have put my money on Boeing wining the helo contract. I would not have even contemplate them winning all three contracts. So either the paradigm is shifting or Boeing really is out on a limb with those contracts.

Only time will tell I guess.

bt

Two of those three contracts were for new build aircraft though, which would have ideally suited any new manufacturing process. Doing that for an aircraft the age of the F-15 with no certainly of order quantity seems a risk too far.

Agree 100% that the paradigm has shifted at Boeing, they are clearly more aggressive now to the hopeful benefit of the US services though given the KC-46 debacle Boeing has some work cut out to gain back some reputation.
 
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:14 pm

Ozair wrote:
Doing that for an aircraft the age of the F-15 with no certainly of order quantity seems a risk too far.


I would assume that this was completed for the Qatar and Israel order. The number of parts involved for the F-15 is not as many as for something like a commercial aircraft. With digital product definition, I would think they could have done that in short order. The process that noted only involved structures and does not impact systems, so the scope would be reasonable.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
DigitalSea
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:27 pm

I wish they would fast track cheap and affordable companion/bombtruck UCAV platforms instead of throwing money at additional F-15s. It's only a matter of time before China's production & technology advances allow them to pump out fleets of "paper airplanes" to overwhelm any advantage we have with 4.5/5/6th Gen tech.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:04 pm

DigitalSea wrote:
I wish they would fast track cheap and affordable companion/bombtruck UCAV platforms instead of throwing money at additional F-15s. It's only a matter of time before China's production & technology advances allow them to pump out fleets of "paper airplanes" to overwhelm any advantage we have with 4.5/5/6th Gen tech.


The F-15X can carry up 22 missiles with the new quad rack. Not sure of any UCAV is ready to do that just yet.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
SuperiorPilotMe
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:26 am

texl1649 wrote:


You really need to stop giving that site views let alone keep using it for evidence and the basis of topics like this. He has zero authority, training or military experience whatsoever. He is the American Carlo Kopp, a fanboy, a Boeing fanboy at that. He thinks a F-15 with a KC-46 can bomb the whole world. Also he writes really creepy articles about women in uniform like it’s his fetish. Like in a sexual way.
Stop the stupids!- Claus Kellerman
 
Planeflyer
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:59 am

bikerthai wrote:
DigitalSea wrote:
I wish they would fast track cheap and affordable companion/bombtruck UCAV platforms instead of throwing money at additional F-15s. It's only a matter of time before China's production & technology advances allow them to pump out fleets of "paper airplanes" to overwhelm any advantage we have with 4.5/5/6th Gen tech.


The F-15X can carry up 22 missiles with the new quad rack. Not sure of any UCAV is ready to do that just yet.

bt


The electronics required to slave multiple uav’ s to an ac is not trivial but it is available now. Concept of operations and software are the gating items.
 
RetiredWeasel
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:09 pm

SuperiorPilotMe wrote:
texl1649 wrote:


You really need to stop giving that site views let alone keep using it for evidence and the basis of topics like this. He has zero authority, training or military experience whatsoever. He is the American Carlo Kopp, a fanboy, a Boeing fanboy at that. He thinks a F-15 with a KC-46 can bomb the whole world. Also he writes really creepy articles about women in uniform like it’s his fetish. Like in a sexual way.


You've got to be kidding on your last observation regarding that blog. Right? If somehow you're getting that vibe out of Rogoway's blog, then it says more about you than his articles. I've been reading him for over 2 years and although he misses frequently on accuracy, I never, never got any 'creepy' sexual connotation from him. Really don't know where you're coming from on your 'creepy' observation
 
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:10 pm

Planeflyer wrote:
The electronics required to slave multiple uav’ s to an ac is not trivial but it is available now. Concept of operations and software are the gating items.


I do not dispute slaving UAV to an AC. My point is as of now, there is no UAV that can carry 22 missiles. The current slate of UAV are too slow to keep up with a strike package and does not have the same missile capacity. The next slate of UAV at more stealth like and also does not have the same capacity (perhaps with the exception of the new bomber.)

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
SuperiorPilotMe
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:03 pm

RetiredWeasel wrote:
SuperiorPilotMe wrote:
texl1649 wrote:


You really need to stop giving that site views let alone keep using it for evidence and the basis of topics like this. He has zero authority, training or military experience whatsoever. He is the American Carlo Kopp, a fanboy, a Boeing fanboy at that. He thinks a F-15 with a KC-46 can bomb the whole world. Also he writes really creepy articles about women in uniform like it’s his fetish. Like in a sexual way.


You've got to be kidding on your last observation regarding that blog. Right? If somehow you're getting that vibe out of Rogoway's blog, then it says more about you than his articles. I've been reading him for over 2 years and although he misses frequently on accuracy, I never, never got any 'creepy' sexual connotation from him. Really don't know where you're coming from on your 'creepy' observation


Nice job sidestepping the issue I’ll take it as a tacit admission that you agree Rogoway has a spotty track record on his “facts.”

bikerthai wrote:
Planeflyer wrote:
The electronics required to slave multiple uav’ s to an ac is not trivial but it is available now. Concept of operations and software are the gating items.


I do not dispute slaving UAV to an AC. My point is as of now, there is no UAV that can carry 22 missiles. The current slate of UAV are too slow to keep up with a strike package and does not have the same missile capacity. The next slate of UAV at more stealth like and also does not have the same capacity (perhaps with the exception of the new bomber.)

bt

This has literally nothing to do with F-15s. Another graduate from the school of Rogoway military journalism!
Stop the stupids!- Claus Kellerman
 
texl1649
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:35 pm

Ok, I'm a bit mystified at the offense of linking to Rogoway but whatever, feel free to ignore any future links, SuperiorPilotMe.

Meanwhile, here is a new one today on the F-15X (not from Tyler!).

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/ ... -15x-44207

Again here there is reference to a lack of need for stealth in certain missions (aka, intercepting Tupolev's in Alaska):

"
The issue of cost-efficiency is acute as the air force has declared its objective to expand from 312 to 386 squadrons despite suffering from a shortage of trained pilots and an aging aircraft inventory. A defense-spending surge in 2018 is unlikely to be long sustained. Thus, F-15Xs could offer a cost-efficient means to sustain aircraft inventory numbers and free stealth aircraft from routine missions so they can concentrate on those which require their expensive capabilities.

However, that means spending money now buying new fighters to save even more money later by paying less for their sustainment—the sort of budgetary castor oil that can be politically hard to swallow.

Bloomberg claimed the air force had “accepted” the limited F-15X fighter order, though the procurement will not be confirmed until a budget is submitted on February 4, 2019. However, the F-15X may continue to face opposition from an air force keen to replace its fourth-generation aircraft for stealth fighters as quickly as possible.
"
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Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos