An225
Topic Author
Posts: 257
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 6:37 pm

Israeli Airforce Next Gen Helicopters Discussion Thread

Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:04 am

Hello all,
As current IAF fleet of choppers is getting pretty old, new replacements are discussed more frequently.
IAF currently operate CH-56s which were upgraded to Yasur 2030 version, and UH-60s in a mix of new built and US Army surplus frames. CH-56s, however, are in a very high priority for replacement, and it is published by the Israeli press, and stated by the Israeli MoD, that current plan is to buy a mix of Ch-47s and Ospreys in undisclosed numbers. This purchase is part of an 11BN USD plan which includes F-15s and KC-46s.
I am very puzzled about the helicopters choice. While the Ospreys are a logical choice since they will be used for special ops, the choice of CH-47s is not clear to me. In the past the IAF considered choosing the CH-56K. This model looks like a natural choice as it is bigger and most capable. However, looking on the CH-47 fact sheet it is noticeable that it is less capable than the type it replaces. For example, if has lower payload, lower range, lower speed.
So maybe I am missing something out here. Why the CH47 is the choice, and not the CH-56K?

Thanks,

An225
Last edited by SQ22 on Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:48 am, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Title updated
 
bunumuring
Posts: 2531
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:56 pm

Re: Best choice for the Israeli Airforce next gen helicopters

Tue Jul 31, 2018 2:59 pm

Hey mate,
Could it be cost?
The Chinook is so much cheaper to buy, maintain and operate than the King Stallion. I read somewhere that the Germans are looking favourably on the former as a replacement for their CH-56s as they can buy more for the fixed budgetary amount and don't consider the Chinook's lesser abilities to be too much of an issue compared to the benefit of having more helicopters overall.
Ospreys are, as you say, a given.
Cheers,
Bunumuring
I just wanna live while I'm alive!
 
An225
Topic Author
Posts: 257
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Re: Best choice for the Israeli Airforce next gen helicopters

Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:21 pm

Thanks, Bunumuring. It could be cost, that is true.
If the IAF can buy all, or most of the items in this crazy deal from one supplier, than they will probably get a better deal.
Lets see:
F-15 - Boeing
KC-46 - Boeing
CH-47 - Boeing, vs. CH-56 - Lockheed
V-22 - Bell-Boeing

So, probably the manufacturer identity is the cause for the platform choice
 
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bikerthai
Posts: 2965
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Re: Best choice for the Israeli Airforce next gen helicopters

Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:46 pm

bunumuring wrote:
The Chinook is so much cheaper to buy, maintain and operate than the King Stallion.


234 unit built vs. 1200+ unit built. Which one would you have an easier time of getting spare parts? :rotfl:

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
bigjku
Posts: 1906
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:51 pm

Re: Best choice for the Israeli Airforce next gen helicopters

Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:03 pm

An225 wrote:
Hello all,
As current IAF fleet of choppers is getting pretty old, new replacements are discussed more frequently.
IAF currently operate CH-56s which were upgraded to Yasur 2030 version, and UH-60s in a mix of new built and US Army surplus frames. CH-56s, however, are in a very high priority for replacement, and it is published by the Israeli press, and stated by the Israeli MoD, that current plan is to buy a mix of Ch-47s and Ospreys in undisclosed numbers. This purchase is part of an 11BN USD plan which includes F-15s and KC-46s.
I am very puzzled about the helicopters choice. While the Ospreys are a logical choice since they will be used for special ops, the choice of CH-47s is not clear to me. In the past the IAF considered choosing the CH-56K. This model looks like a natural choice as it is bigger and most capable. However, looking on the CH-47 fact sheet it is noticeable that it is less capable than the type it replaces. For example, if has lower payload, lower range, lower speed.
So maybe I am missing something out here. Why the CH47 is the choice, and not the CH-56K?

Thanks,

An225


Keep in mind that Israel operates the two engined D version not the three engined E version I believe. So they are using something now with a useful load of load of 8,000 pounds or so. I believe even the CH-47 will be a considerable upgrade from the CH-53D Israel is running even if it is not as capable as the CH-53K.

The CH-53 variants are all different enough to really have new numbers from what I can tell. They just don’t.
 
An225
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Posts: 257
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Re: Best choice for the Israeli Airforce next gen helicopters

Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:19 am

Thanks everyone for your knowledgeable comments.


bikerthai wrote:
bunumuring wrote:
The Chinook is so much cheaper to buy, maintain and operate than the King Stallion.


234 unit built vs. 1200+ unit built. Which one would you have an easier time of getting spare parts? :rotfl:

bt


What about any commonality the CH-53K have with previous models, and the fact that a CH-47 has none?

bigjku wrote:
Keep in mind that Israel operates the two engined D version not the three engined E version I believe. So they are using something now with a useful load of load of 8,000 pounds or so. I believe even the CH-47 will be a considerable upgrade from the CH-53D Israel is running even if it is not as capable as the CH-53K.


True.
If you think about it, almost any heavy chopper is better than what we have now, in terms of basic performance.

An225
 
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seahawk
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Re: Best choice for the Israeli Airforce next gen helicopters

Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:53 am

The CH-53K only looks similar to a CH-53D technically they are totally different. The King Stallion comes from the Super Stallion line with 3 engines and is only loosely related to the Sea Stallion line of helicopters with 2 engines. That is why a CH-47F is quite closer in capabilities to a CH-53D.
 
bigjku
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Re: Best choice for the Israeli Airforce next gen helicopters

Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:21 am

seahawk wrote:
The CH-53K only looks similar to a CH-53D technically they are totally different. The King Stallion comes from the Super Stallion line with 3 engines and is only loosely related to the Sea Stallion line of helicopters with 2 engines. That is why a CH-47F is quite closer in capabilities to a CH-53D.


Much like the Super Hornet the CH-53 Is mostly called that because it makes congress shut up to a degree. It most properly is a new helicopter really in all three variants.
 
steman
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Re: Best choice for the Israeli Airforce next gen helicopters

Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:36 am

The German Luftwaffe is about to make a decision between the exact same two types: CH-53K and CH-47F.
Germany has been a long time user of the CH-53G, similar to the CH-53D used by Israel.
It will be interesing to see what the Luftwaffe and the IAF choose and the reasons (the official ones at least) behind the respective choice.
 
Ozair
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Re: Best choice for the Israeli Airforce next gen helicopters

Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:43 am

A somewhat forgotten competition going on for Israel’s requirement for a new heavy lift helicopter. Both programs could do with the export win but probably more so for the CH-53K. While I don’t think the winner of this competition will strongly influence other competitions going on, such as the German one, it would create a larger user base for the CH-53K than just the USMC.

The CH-47 already has a large global user base but with the end of US Army orders I can see why they would be keen to win this contract.

CH-53 vs. CH-47: Which Helicopter Will Israel Pick?

This week, while the votes were being counted in Israeli’s second general election in six months, a small Israeli Air Force delegation has been quietly taking test flights in Patuxent, Maryland aboard the US Marine Corps’ brand-new CH-53K helicopter. Whatever coalition government finally emerges will have some long-delayed defense decisions to deal with, including whether to buy the Lockheed Martin CH-53K King Stallion or Boeing’s CH-47F Block II Chinook.

The Israeli buy of 20 aircraft will be significant, not only in itself, but as a vote of confidence from a key ally that could influence future decisions in the US. Both programs need the boost, in different ways.

...

https://breakingdefense.com/2019/09/ch- ... rael-pick/
 
Max Q
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Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

Re: Best choice for the Israeli Airforce next gen helicopters

Thu Sep 26, 2019 4:16 am

Ozair wrote:
A somewhat forgotten competition going on for Israel’s requirement for a new heavy lift helicopter. Both programs could do with the export win but probably more so for the CH-53K. While I don’t think the winner of this competition will strongly influence other competitions going on, such as the German one, it would create a larger user base for the CH-53K than just the USMC.

The CH-47 already has a large global user base but with the end of US Army orders I can see why they would be keen to win this contract.

CH-53 vs. CH-47: Which Helicopter Will Israel Pick?

This week, while the votes were being counted in Israeli’s second general election in six months, a small Israeli Air Force delegation has been quietly taking test flights in Patuxent, Maryland aboard the US Marine Corps’ brand-new CH-53K helicopter. Whatever coalition government finally emerges will have some long-delayed defense decisions to deal with, including whether to buy the Lockheed Martin CH-53K King Stallion or Boeing’s CH-47F Block II Chinook.

The Israeli buy of 20 aircraft will be significant, not only in itself, but as a vote of confidence from a key ally that could influence future decisions in the US. Both programs need the boost, in different ways.

...

https://breakingdefense.com/2019/09/ch- ... rael-pick/



‘The CH53K is entering production’


I thought this aircraft had / has serious unresolved technical issues


Am I missing something or have these all been solved ?
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


Guns and the love of them by a loud minority are a malignant and deadly cancer inflicted on American society
 
Ozair
Posts: 4271
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: Best choice for the Israeli Airforce next gen helicopters

Thu Sep 26, 2019 6:11 am

Max Q wrote:


‘The CH53K is entering production’


I thought this aircraft had / has serious unresolved technical issues


Am I missing something or have these all been solved ?

As per the FY2019 SAR https://www.esd.whs.mil/Portals/54/Docu ... c_2017.pdf the CH-53K is in low rate initial production. Two aircraft ordered in 2017, four in 2018, eight in 2019 etc.
 
Max Q
Posts: 7707
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Re: Best choice for the Israeli Airforce next gen helicopters

Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:44 am

Ozair wrote:
Max Q wrote:


‘The CH53K is entering production’


I thought this aircraft had / has serious unresolved technical issues


Am I missing something or have these all been solved ?

As per the FY2019 SAR https://www.esd.whs.mil/Portals/54/Docu ... c_2017.pdf the CH-53K is in low rate initial production. Two aircraft ordered in 2017, four in 2018, eight in 2019 etc.



Interesting, I’ve not seen anything in writing
that reports all those technical issues have
been resolved


If they had you’d think it would have been announced, the other possibly is that production is continuing without a current fix while ones being worked on


That’s surprising considering how significant the K models problems were
and several articles stating there was no
known solution
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


Guns and the love of them by a loud minority are a malignant and deadly cancer inflicted on American society
 
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keesje
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Re: Israeli Airforce Next Gen Helicopters Discussion Thread

Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:09 pm

I think the speed, agility and cabin flexibility of the Chinook is still hard to beat. And it is probably cheaper (e.g. 2 engines). So it will probably be the Chinook.

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