Ozair
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Re: Britain Considers Boeing 737 AEW&C

Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:48 am

Max Q wrote:
Yes, I have seen pictures of the main cabin it’s the area behind the wing I’m curious about

Aah, sorry I misunderstood. That is just server and radar equipment space. Likely it is noisy and not very comfortable. I doubt the reason there aren't any pictures is that is it classified. More likely because they probably don't think people really have an interest in the server racks and data cabinets.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Britain Considers Boeing 737 AEW&C

Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:28 pm

Ozair wrote:
Max Q wrote:
Yes, I have seen pictures of the main cabin it’s the area behind the wing I’m curious about

Aah, sorry I misunderstood. That is just server and radar equipment space. Likely it is noisy and not very comfortable. I doubt the reason there aren't any pictures is that is it classified. More likely because they probably don't think people really have an interest in the server racks and data cabinets.


You can see what's in the back of the airplane here:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/01/98/d7 ... ce8b64.jpg

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
Max Q
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Re: Britain Considers Boeing 737 AEW&C

Sun Oct 28, 2018 9:50 pm

Thanks Oz and BT

The design allows for a lot of space
for future growth then and additional electronics judging from
that available space


Love those ‘Flight’ cutaways
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
brindabella
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Re: Britain Considers Boeing 737 AEW&C

Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:51 pm

Leeham on 5th. November:

Nov. 5, 2018, © Leeham News:

"A UK defense publication reported late today (US time) that Boeing agreed to final assembly of the 737-based Wedgetail radar and surveillance airplane in the UK".

Any ideas where/how that might happen, anyone?


cheers
Billy
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Britain Considers Boeing 737 AEW&C

Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:23 pm

There will be the new support facility for the P-8A the UK will be receiving next year. But that would be too far north.

All you need is a hangar bay that will fit a 737. The tooling for the mod was last used for Korea's Piece Eye and should be able to be shipped to the UK no prob. Those tooling did travel a bit. First Australia, then Turkey, Korea, now UK.

Anyone know where did Boeing modify those UK Apache and if that facility will fit a 737? If it can then that would be my guess.

By final assembly, what they mean is they will take a base 737 frame. They would then cut/remove the crown of the 46 section and replace that section with a pre-fab section that contains the interface for the NG radar. During this time, they would stuff the main cabin and lower lobe with the electronic racks and gobs of wiring, additional fuel tanks etc . . .

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
Max Q
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Re: Britain Considers Boeing 737 AEW&C

Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:13 am

The E-7 has supplementary fuel tanks ?
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Britain Considers Boeing 737 AEW&C

Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:55 pm

I believe so, they are located just forward and aft of the wing box/MLG. They can be seen as pink in the cut-a-way.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
Max Q
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Re: Britain Considers Boeing 737 AEW&C

Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:20 am

bikerthai wrote:
I believe so, they are located just forward and aft of the wing box/MLG. They can be seen as pink in the cut-a-way.

bt



Interesting, I know the P8 with its
supplementary tanks has the same total
fuel capacity as a B757 which is impressive
and explains its long endurance


I wonder if the E7 with it’s shorter fuselage
with less space for tanks comes close to that fuel capacity
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Britain Considers Boeing 737 AEW&C

Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:35 pm

Looks like the E-7 have fewer aux tanks. The large radar sail would also increase the fuel burn. However, operation environment of the E-7 would include tanker support where as the P-8A are often out there by their lonesome.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
Max Q
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Re: Britain Considers Boeing 737 AEW&C

Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:48 pm

Imagine that large antenna would
create a lot of drag, wonder how that compares to the ‘frisbee’ on the older AWACs
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
brindabella
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Re: Britain Considers Boeing 737 AEW&C

Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:39 am

bikerthai wrote:
There will be the new support facility for the P-8A the UK will be receiving next year. But that would be too far north.

All you need is a hangar bay that will fit a 737. The tooling for the mod was last used for Korea's Piece Eye and should be able to be shipped to the UK no prob. Those tooling did travel a bit. First Australia, then Turkey, Korea, now UK.

Anyone know where did Boeing modify those UK Apache and if that facility will fit a 737? If it can then that would be my guess.

By final assembly, what they mean is they will take a base 737 frame. They would then cut/remove the crown of the 46 section and replace that section with a pre-fab section that contains the interface for the NG radar. During this time, they would stuff the main cabin and lower lobe with the electronic racks and gobs of wiring, additional fuel tanks etc . . .

bt


Thanks! Very easy to visualise,

cheers
Billy
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Britain Considers Boeing 737 AEW&C

Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:39 pm

Sometimes you just have to admire a sensible decision:

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2018/11 ... wedgetail/

“In considering the E-7 Wedgetail , there was such a clear distinction over any other options it was felt that running any type of competition would unnecessarily consume MoD and industry resources, whilst the gap between U.K. capability and the evolving threat would be expected to widen,”



Andrew said there were “fundamental issues with the Airbus/Saab solution that, in our view, make it incompatible with the pressing need,”


And here is a tidbit on where it will be modified:

In addition Cambridge-based Marshall Aerospace and Defence is likely to undertake the work of modifying the 737 airliners to the AEW configuration.


bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
neutronstar73
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Re: Britain Considers Boeing 737 AEW&C

Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:07 pm

bikerthai wrote:
Sometimes you just have to admire a sensible decision:

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2018/11 ... wedgetail/

“In considering the E-7 Wedgetail , there was such a clear distinction over any other options it was felt that running any type of competition would unnecessarily consume MoD and industry resources, whilst the gap between U.K. capability and the evolving threat would be expected to widen,”



Andrew said there were “fundamental issues with the Airbus/Saab solution that, in our view, make it incompatible with the pressing need,”


And here is a tidbit on where it will be modified:

In addition Cambridge-based Marshall Aerospace and Defence is likely to undertake the work of modifying the 737 airliners to the AEW configuration.


bt


I think that is reasonable by the UK. I'm sure if there were no issues with the Airbus/Saab offer, it would've been very competitive. But as it stands, the UK gets a ready-made, in-service and proven solution instead of having to potential rewrite the book on AEW with a new platform.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Britain Considers Boeing 737 AEW&C

Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:22 pm

neutronstar73 wrote:
I think that is reasonable by the UK. I'm sure if there were no issues with the Airbus/Saab offer,


There was a risk with the Saab proposal with the second radar at the front of the aircraft. That second radar could pose a aerodynamic stability issue that would need to be addressed (through analysis and flight tests - potentially more delays). Similar to how a forward canard create instability in a fighter aircraft.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
Max Q
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Re: Britain Considers Boeing 737 AEW&C

Sat Nov 17, 2018 6:46 am

Good decision


Another good decision would be to add a boom to their tankers


C17

E3D

RC135

P8

A330

C130


And soon the E7 are all large RAF aircraft more suited and effectively refueled with
the far faster boom
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Flying-Tiger
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Re: Britain Considers Boeing 737 AEW&C

Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:17 am

neutronstar73 wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
Sometimes you just have to admire a sensible decision:

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2018/11 ... wedgetail/

“In considering the E-7 Wedgetail , there was such a clear distinction over any other options it was felt that running any type of competition would unnecessarily consume MoD and industry resources, whilst the gap between U.K. capability and the evolving threat would be expected to widen,”



Andrew said there were “fundamental issues with the Airbus/Saab solution that, in our view, make it incompatible with the pressing need,”


And here is a tidbit on where it will be modified:

In addition Cambridge-based Marshall Aerospace and Defence is likely to undertake the work of modifying the 737 airliners to the AEW configuration.


bt


I think that is reasonable by the UK. I'm sure if there were no issues with the Airbus/Saab offer, it would've been very competitive. But as it stands, the UK gets a ready-made, in-service and proven solution instead of having to potential rewrite the book on AEW with a new platform.


Well, hard to see how there were able to come to the conclusion of "fundamental issues" etc without even visiting the factories or flying the solutions proposed:

UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) procurement officials did not carry out test flights in rival Swedish or Israeli products before selecting the Boeing E-7 Wedgetail airborne early warning (AEW) aircraft, according to a document released to Jane's under a Freedom of Information (FOI) request on 27 November.

The document also reveals that the Royal Air Force (RAF) Air Command Airborne Warning and Control System Capability Sustainment Programme Team, which runs the project to replace the UK's fleet of six Boeing E-3D Sentry radar aircraft, did not visit any of the factories where the contenders build and integrate their AEW aircraft.


https://www.janes.com/article/84902/uk-did-not-fly-wedgetail-rivals-mod-reveals
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A343/346, A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8/9,B742/4,B762/763,B772/77W,CR2/7/9/K,ER3/4,E70/75/90/95, F50/70/100,M11,L15,SF3,S20, AR8/1, 142/143,...
 
neutronstar73
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Re: Britain Considers Boeing 737 AEW&C

Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:04 pm

Flying-Tiger wrote:
neutronstar73 wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
Sometimes you just have to admire a sensible decision:

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2018/11 ... wedgetail/






And here is a tidbit on where it will be modified:



bt


I think that is reasonable by the UK. I'm sure if there were no issues with the Airbus/Saab offer, it would've been very competitive. But as it stands, the UK gets a ready-made, in-service and proven solution instead of having to potential rewrite the book on AEW with a new platform.


Well, hard to see how there were able to come to the conclusion of "fundamental issues" etc without even visiting the factories or flying the solutions proposed:

UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) procurement officials did not carry out test flights in rival Swedish or Israeli products before selecting the Boeing E-7 Wedgetail airborne early warning (AEW) aircraft, according to a document released to Jane's under a Freedom of Information (FOI) request on 27 November.

The document also reveals that the Royal Air Force (RAF) Air Command Airborne Warning and Control System Capability Sustainment Programme Team, which runs the project to replace the UK's fleet of six Boeing E-3D Sentry radar aircraft, did not visit any of the factories where the contenders build and integrate their AEW aircraft.


https://www.janes.com/article/84902/uk-did-not-fly-wedgetail-rivals-mod-reveals



See Reply #64 above by BikerThai.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Britain Considers Boeing 737 AEW&C

Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:25 pm

Flying-Tiger wrote:
Well, hard to see how there were able to come to the conclusion of "fundamental issues" etc without even visiting the factories or flying the solutions proposed:


The fundamental issues has nothing to do with the factories. What the factories do is tell you how well/efficient you can put the plane together. Factory visit would not make sense either way because the plan is to set up a mod facility in the UK anyway. Besides, the E-7 do not have a current factory to be compared. :boggled:

There was already rumbling that the Israeli proposal would have been too small for the UK needs (smaller radar and lack of space for battle space management needs). The Swedish proposal would have plenty of space, but has other issues as mentioned above (both acquisition and development).

The one thing about the E-7 is you can train the crew the RAAF while the plane is being mod so you do not loose months getting up to speed with your own frame.



bt
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