720B
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Search off Japanese coast underway after Marine Corps C-130 and F/A-18 fighter jet crash

Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:55 pm

https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/y ... jet-crash/

Search and rescue operations were underway off the Japanese coast early Thursday local time after a Marine Corps C-130 and F/A-18 fighter jet crashed, military officials said in a news release
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Search off Japanese coast underway after Marine Corps C-130 and F/A-18 fighter jet crash

Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:55 pm

Not good news. Did they collide?
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Runway28L
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Re: Search off Japanese coast underway after Marine Corps C-130 and F/A-18 fighter jet crash

Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:38 am

Crew of 5 on the C-130. Crew of 2 on the F/A-18.
https://twitter.com/InstaNewsAlerts/sta ... 8184819715

The Japanese have rescued one of the crew members alive. 6 still unaccounted for.
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estorilm
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Re: Search off Japanese coast underway after Marine Corps C-130 and F/A-18 fighter jet crash

Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:54 pm

Not a lot of info trickling out as would be expected - CLEARLY there had to be some sort of a major collision for an F-18 to take down something like a C-130. Presumably the entire tail would need to be taken off.

I'm really surprised (again, presumably) that one of the F-18 crew didn't make it. Not that it's any better or worse than the crew in the C-130, but to have escape provisions and still not make it is even more tragic. :(
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Search off Japanese coast underway after Marine Corps C-130 and F/A-18 fighter jet crash

Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:43 pm

The PSA B727 was brought down by Cessna 172, very believeable that F18 would take a 130 down, needn’t be the tail. Remember the GOL 727 taken down by EMB Legacy?

I’d guess it was the pilot that didn’t get out probably as a result of impact. Refueling levels are usually pretty high and lots of time to eject.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Search off Japanese coast underway after Marine Corps C-130 and F/A-18 fighter jet crash

Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:49 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The PSA B727 was brought down by Cessna 172, very believeable that F18 would take a 130 down, needn’t be the tail. Remember the GOL 727 taken down by EMB Legacy?

I’d guess it was the pilot that didn’t get out probably as a result of impact. Refueling levels are usually pretty high and lots of time to eject.


Guess so and in refueling mode, the cockpit seems quite vulnerable for an impact near the tail. All speculation of course. What kind of weather was it?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
smithbs
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Re: Search off Japanese coast underway after Marine Corps C-130 and F/A-18 fighter jet crash

Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:25 pm

estorilm wrote:
I'm really surprised (again, presumably) that one of the F-18 crew didn't make it. Not that it's any better or worse than the crew in the C-130, but to have escape provisions and still not make it is even more tragic. :(


Nobody says that fighter ejection seats are guaranteed. It's an un-guaranteed chance at surviving, because your chances of surviving with the aircraft appear to be even less. Sometimes, for whatever reasons, the pilot doesn't take that chance (incapacitated, trying to save the airplane, etc), and other times the chance doesn't work out.

A good example was the development program for the ejection seats on NASA's Gemini. It was recognized that in fighters, the ejection seat is merely a chance at surviving but nothing was guaranteed. NASA wanted a much higher bar for success for Gemini's seats, since losing an astronaut was a very serious consideration for them. Luckily they were never used to prove out that feature.

And on Youtube somewhere (too lazy to find the link) there is an old early-1980s-ish USAF training video encouraging pilots to stop trying to save the airplane and instead save themselves. They pointed out that there was a fear of losing an airplane, aided by pilot hubris that they could actually save the airplane, compounded by the extremely rapid circumstances that high-performance fighters can get into where the time for survivable ejection is passed before the pilot is even aware that moment passed.
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: Search off Japanese coast underway after Marine Corps C-130 and F/A-18 fighter jet crash

Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:14 am

smithbs wrote:
And on Youtube somewhere (too lazy to find the link) there is an old early-1980s-ish USAF training video encouraging pilots to stop trying to save the airplane and instead save themselves.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PctPYyoSy0
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Search off Japanese coast underway after Marine Corps C-130 and F/A-18 fighter jet crash

Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:25 am

Ejection seats have around an 83% success rate, IIRC. it’s not a guarantee, only used when the plane is scarier than the seat.

GF
 
Chaostheory
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Re: Search off Japanese coast underway after Marine Corps C-130 and F/A-18 fighter jet crash

Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:03 am

smithbs wrote:
And on Youtube somewhere (too lazy to find the link) there is an old early-1980s-ish USAF training video encouraging pilots to stop trying to save the airplane and instead save themselves. They pointed out that there was a fear of losing an airplane, aided by pilot hubris that they could actually save the airplane, compounded by the extremely rapid circumstances that high-performance fighters can get into where the time for survivable ejection is passed before the pilot is even aware that moment passed.


One of the old hands I flew with on the corporate side was an F4 and F16 instructor for the USAF around that time. I recall him telling me of an F16? crash where a crew failed to recover and ejected at low altitude only to be then killed by the ensuing fireball explosion.
 
estorilm
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Re: Search off Japanese coast underway after Marine Corps C-130 and F/A-18 fighter jet crash

Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:02 pm

Chaostheory wrote:
smithbs wrote:
And on Youtube somewhere (too lazy to find the link) there is an old early-1980s-ish USAF training video encouraging pilots to stop trying to save the airplane and instead save themselves. They pointed out that there was a fear of losing an airplane, aided by pilot hubris that they could actually save the airplane, compounded by the extremely rapid circumstances that high-performance fighters can get into where the time for survivable ejection is passed before the pilot is even aware that moment passed.


One of the old hands I flew with on the corporate side was an F4 and F16 instructor for the USAF around that time. I recall him telling me of an F16? crash where a crew failed to recover and ejected at low altitude only to be then killed by the ensuing fireball explosion.

No thanks.. much rather just go into the ground with the aircraft. :(

...and yes everyone, I know ejection seats aren't perfect - I saw Top Gun too. ;) Actually the tragic thing is that a pilot actually died while filming for that scene.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Search off Japanese coast underway after Marine Corps C-130 and F/A-18 fighter jet crash

Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:08 pm

At Dulles in ‘72 Transpo Show a Blue Angel was killed that way. I know a guy who ejected three times out of A-7s; another twice in two weeks in A-4s in SEA. I’ve known dozens of ejection stories, both good and bad,there’s not one I don’t believe. Top Gun is hardly dispositive on ejection seats.

GF
 
estorilm
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Re: Search off Japanese coast underway after Marine Corps C-130 and F/A-18 fighter jet crash

Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:31 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
At Dulles in ‘72 Transpo Show a Blue Angel was killed that way. I know a guy who ejected three times out of A-7s; another twice in two weeks in A-4s in SEA. I’ve known dozens of ejection stories, both good and bad,there’s not one I don’t believe. Top Gun is hardly dispositive on ejection seats.

GF

Yup - heard some interesting stories since I joined the CAF and started working the plane at a lot of the Navy shows last year.. many of our pilots are ex-Navy as well. Lots of stuff people probably wouldn't believe.

I think Arthur Scholl's death hits home a little more because he was such a legend and had done that spin maneuver countless times, also huge in the air show and aerobatic world.

I just saw my first air show death this fall and it really got to me more than I ever thought it would. Night time / impact explosion and everything. :(
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: Search off Japanese coast underway after Marine Corps C-130 and F/A-18 fighter jet crash

Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:44 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Ejection seats have around an 83% success rate, IIRC. it’s not a guarantee, only used when the plane is scarier than the seat.


I wonder if that success rate is due to the seat itself, or just the circumstances (plane disintegrating/exploding around you, too late activation, etc)? That is, is the seat operation itself 100% or nearly 100% and the rest to be blamed on whatever else is going on?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Search off Japanese coast underway after Marine Corps C-130 and F/A-18 fighter jet crash

Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:55 pm

Most failures are the conditions specifically out of the envelope for full chute inflation to occur—too low, attitude at seat firing causing poor trajectory, and high descent rate. Seat system failure is rare. Martin-Baker passed 5,000 successful ejections a couple of years ago. ACES II (Boeing, I believe) must be over 1,500 now. I got of a complete fireball at about 500’ above s valley with high descent rate and made it by about 300 milliseconds.

GF
 
LMP737
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Re: Search off Japanese coast underway after Marine Corps C-130 and F/A-18 fighter jet crash

Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:56 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Most failures are the conditions specifically out of the envelope for full chute inflation to occur—too low, attitude at seat firing causing poor trajectory, and high descent rate. Seat system failure is rare. Martin-Baker passed 5,000 successful ejections a couple of years ago. ACES II (Boeing, I believe) must be over 1,500 now. I got of a complete fireball at about 500’ above s valley with high descent rate and made it by about 300 milliseconds.

GF


There was a RIO in my squadron who was a maintenance officer because he could no longer fly. Reason being he ejected and it messed him up so badly he was grounded permanently.
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Search off Japanese coast underway after Marine Corps C-130 and F/A-18 fighter jet crash

Sat Dec 08, 2018 3:42 am

I couldn’t fly the A-10 or any ejection seat due to metal rods in my spine to repair the crushed T-12 vertebrae. The USAF Flight Surgeon’s Officer has a rubber stamp, “Flight State Waiver not valid for ejection seat aircraft”.

GF

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